I hate cars

Just touching on the air and intercooler temps... Methanol injection is a far better way of cooling. I tried C02 and even spraying the IC with nitrous on the outside for cooling. I have a charge temp guage before the IC and after the meth nozzle right before the throttlebody. By far the best charge cooling is done with meth. Spraying a pretty large shot, I saw temps go down from 120 degrees and peg the guage out at 60 degrees. I'm curious how cool the temps really were. After a 26psi run, even popping the hood, the distance of pipe between the injection nozzle and throttlebody, throttlebody, and upper plenum of the intake manifold were cold.

Sitting there and spraying the intercooler with nitrous made a small reduction in temps, less than 10 degrees if I remember right but it's been a lot of years.

CO2 made no measurable difference, that I remember for sure.

The amount of heat a high boost turbo car puts in the airstream is enourmous. I know one guy that runs a liquid to air intercooler. The car was an 8 second race only car. It had a large water pump that circulated water through the intercooler and to the 40lbs of ice water in the trunk. Between his burnout and 8 second 1/4 run, the 40lbs of freezing water was warm. It would take an enourmous amount of CO2 or nitrous being sprayed externally to make a dent in it. But spraying nitrous or meth into the intake stream is very effective.

The one thing to think about when choosing an intercooler is that it does not just cool the charge air as a normal radiator in the air to air fashion. It's a heat sink at low speeds when there's not much airflow. There is some advantage of having a lot of mass. You will also notice more consistant charge temps. A smaller unit may show larger spikes when under boost and at lower speeds and then cool down quickly once out of boost as long as the car is moving. A larger unit won't see as much of an initial spike but as long as it's designed right it will cool off nearly as quick.

During a 1/4 run with a good IC I will see charge temps start going up farely quickly before the 1/8 mile but start to level off as the car gains speed and airflow. With an undersized unit the temps seem to never level off, they just climb and climb until you let off the throttle.

With the technology out there today, you can have ambient charge temps under boost with the combo of a good intercooler and methanol injection. Literally you can have it so the engine sees the same inlet temps under boost as a NA TL with CAI sees.

Inaccurate

Absolutely less detonation issues !!! I should be able to use any nitrous boost level that I dare with no fear of detonation.

If you search the internet, you will find extremely few people that have ran nitrous with methanol as the supplementary fuel. I don't know if this is because so few people have thought of it, or because people that do it want to keep it a secret. I am being seriously. The nitrous methanol works DAMN WELL..... so much so that I can see how people want to keep it a secret.

Of the few people that have done nitrous methanol and are willing to talk about it, they describe it as a miracle combo.



Below are a few things that I have found on the internet -

"I have talked with Matt (Snow Perf.) at length about the capabilities of his systems relative to nitrous. And it is impressive. Cliff notes of our talks are as follows: you can run stock plugs, stock timing, and still get ~30% more power out of a given shot size w/ 0 detonation. Almost too good to be true."

"Been doing meth/nitrous for a bunch of years now and it is vastly better than straight race fuel in my opinion. You get away with much more timing. The amount of timing one can run using meth instead of fuel is staggering. NO DETONATION!!!"

"I ran a meth/nitrous setup back in 2000 or so, it worked really good and made more power than running race gas did."

"I've used water/alky injection with my dry shot. My car was seeing up to 4 deg of KR during a run. With the injection on, it showed zero."

"the best & safest way to run bigger shots of nitrous safe with more HP. No worry of detonation or heat damage."

"More forgiving on timing. Also do not have to pull timing, or pulling very little timing if you are running big timing. No melting pistons or plugs by a wide margin of error."

"No down side just more power & safer."

"it burns better & cooler so no detonation issues to worry about, or pulling so much timing."




The marriage of nitrous and methanol is the perfect marriage. Just like a real marriage, the union ship of the two produces a pair that covers-up their individual weaknesses. Synergy.


Sloppy installations and/or greed (using too much nitrous boost) is the enemy of motors.

Nitrous (using gasoline as the supplementary fuel) is no more dangerous than a supercharger or a turbo. Whereas, my Nitrous Methanol Injection (NMI) is safer than a s/c or a turbo in my opinion.

Absolutely correct. If the supplementary fuel for the nitrous is gasoline, then there will be that much more heat relative to the amount of power increase. However with methanol as the supplementary fuel, there will be no additional heat. Methanol as the supplementary fuel for the nitrous will produce the additional power with *no* additional heat.

While spraying and producing considerably more power, the engine will be much less prone to detonation than the engine would be NA.



I agree with what IHC said about this topic.

Although it does cool it some, it is not worth the cost for such a small performance increase from the indirect cooling. Methanol can cool the air charge in a direct fashion much more efficiently and cheaper.

Too expensive for nitrous to be wasted like that. You would need to have an AirGas truck coming to your house everyday to make deliveries

tenzingsherpa

^^^ damn!!! i like

I hate cars

Thanks Inaccurate. During my entire post above I was searching for the correct word (direct vs indirect) for cooling. Some days I think my IQ is cut in half.

I hate cars

Just thinking out loud here... We know why the nitrogen is in nitrous. I wonder how destructive pure 02 would be if the car was run off of pure meth. I'm assuming it would still be like a torch and basically destroy the engine but I've never seen a study done with that combo before. Obviously not practical or probably even illegal (no way I would run around with an oxygen tank in the car) but I'm still curious to the results.

Inaccurate

Below is an excerpt from the Jeff Hartman book, pictured above. An excellent book on nitrous.


WHY NOT JUST INJECT PURE OXYGEN INSTEAD OF NITROUS?

Pure oxygen injection sounds like a good idea in theory, but nitrous oxide is actually a better chemical supercharging agent in all respects. The gist of it is that the 6,000-degree fire chemistry of pure oxygen combustion is too radical for an internal-combustion engine. As an oxidizer for internal combustion engines, pure oxygen burns much too hot (up to 6,290 degrees F!).

When it comes to air-enrichment with pure oxygen, every advantage goes to nitrous. Liquid nitrous oxide has combustion-cooling refrigeration properties that help to moderate the hot, fast combustion of oxygen-enriched air. Perhaps surprisingly, a tank of liquid nitrous contains more oxygen than a tank of compressed oxygen (and cryogenic liquid oxygen is not feasible for automotive use). Beyond that, nitrous oxide is safer, since it is basically inert until heated above 572 degrees F.

Even if oxygen is diluted with other gases, liquid oxygen poses troublesome handling issues because its so cold. Compressed oxygen gas may sound like a better approach but it also has its limits. At 3,000 pounds per square inch (a common pressure limit for oxygen tanks) a gallon of the gas contains only 2.4 pounds of oxygen at standard temperature. By contrast, a gallon of liquefied nitrous oxide under standard conditions contains 3.8 pounds of oxygen. Thus, liquid nitrous oxide actually contains more oxygen per gallon than high-pressure oxygen gas yet requires no cryogenic handling measures because it remains a liquid to nearly 100 degrees F in a closed storage tank as long as there is enough left to maintain high internal vapor pressure.

I hate cars

I didn't know there's more oxygen available from a bottle of nitrous than from a bottle of oxygen. That's pretty interesting. I know it acts basically as a torch on the pistons in pure form. I know they tried it waaaay back in the old days and it always resulted in a meltdown. I was just wondering if there were any way it could be used with the correct fuel (whatever that may be) to keep combustion temps under control but it looks like that's not possible.

The good thing about nitrous is it's not flammable under normal atmospheric conditions. Obviously the bottle can "explode" but at least it's not combusting or even truly exploding. I'm still going back and forth between doing an all out high boost 600hp turbo or just installing a 35-50 shot for a little extra power and calling it a day. Part of me just wants a little extra power every now and then without getting crazy with it. Tax lady is still in jail and FBI interviews are being done on customers so that will probably determine a $700 small nitrous setup or a $10,000 high boost turbo setup.

BostonSilverTypeS

thanks and good info...IHC yeah your right though, I guess it cools it down, but for the amount of degrees it lowers it, not worth cooling the IC using nitrous as InAccurate stated.....

so Inaccurate when are you planning doing this NMI thing?

with this new source of info I'm debating if I even want to head the turbo route, I mean yeah you get way more power but you deal with much more headache in my opinion going the turbo route...And me being a DD I could head this Nitrous/meth route with say 100shot and use it only on days I'm feeling spirited or heading to the track and defenitely save much more money

turbo does sound good but this nitrous route does sound pretty sweet as well for a vehicle that will be driven daily and not able to have alot of down time.....

I hate cars

Assuming both are set up right, the turbo is more daily driver friendly to me. You control and modulate power with the throttle as you would without the turbo. Nitrous is on or off, no modulation unless you get a progressive kit which last time I checked are very unreliable and expensive. You pay more up front but have no bottles to fill. You can use boost all the time. The reason I've considered nitrous on my TL is because I would run a very small shot and I drive it very slow most of the time. A 10lb bottle should last me months. In the end, they will produce the same results, it comes down to personal preference and type of usage and budget.

Inaccurate

Currently underway. I have no deadlines set. My only deadline is finishing it before the summer heat returns, which is April.

Many times, I want to start a thread to show my build progress. But, I then remind myself of this linked thread (click here) as a reason to NOT create a thread.

When a person is surrounded in the company of atheists, a person should not start talking about the benefits of religion.


Totally untrue. You do not get more power from a turbo than nitrous.

Both the turbo and nitrous are able to make much more power than the TL can withstand from a mechanical perspective.

In my opinion, it is actually the opposite. Nitrous is able to make power much more easily than a turbo. This is why nitrous gets a bad reputation. Because nitrous WILL MAKE POWER guaranteed. You want a 500 HP Increase? No problem because nitrous WILL DO IT. But your entire car is not up to the task from a mechanical perspective.

See? This is why nitrous has a bad reputation. Because nitrous does work to make huge power without arguing back at you. It is way too easy for people to misuse and abuse nitrous.


On our TL, Nitrous is only a safe power-added if methanol is used as the supplementary fuel. The TL must have the methanol to combat the dreaded TL detonation destruction.

The nitrous methanol injection can cause your TL to have down time (from breakage) too if the NMI is allowed to make to much torque.


It is well known that the opposite is true. With a turbo and a s/c, they are always online (running), even when not being called upon for power augmentation. However, the s/c and turbo must be forced to run properly even when not being used for power augmentation.

Whereas, the nitrous is silently setting there offline. The nitrous does not interfere with the car's NA tune. No parasitic power losses.



I agree. But for me, this binary (fully on / fully off) matches my driving style anyway. With my TL Diet, I never use the throttle between 50%-100% anyways. My foot is always at less than 1/2 throttle - or - floored. So, the binary aspect (full on / full off) of nitrous fits me.

With a s/c or turbo, the driver can modulate the throttle to maintain traction. With nitrous and no progressive control (which I hate), it is impossible to finesse traction from the tires. With nitrous, you activate the nitrous and hope for the tires to stay planted. If the tires break traction, your only option is to back pedal to regain traction.


I agree. I hate Progressive Controllers. Flawed logic. Just a marketing scheme in my opinion.

I hate cars

Suppose you have a 400hp turbo car and a 400hp nitrous car. The stock TL makes about 210hp. With the turbo, you can choose any hp between stock to 400hp. Put the throttle halfway you might make 300hp. Put it 3/4 of the way you might make 350hp.

With the nitrous car you're limited to the stock power or full power on the bottle. 210hp or 400hp, nothing in between 210 and 400hp.

I wouldn't mind nitrous as much on a large V8 making lots of power on motor. But the TL is too slow on motor to have that on/off of the nitrous.

With the turbo, if you want just a little more power than stock, you've got it. If you want a lot more power than stock, you've got it just by pressing the throttle.

The TL is a unique case in the tuning department. On a factory turbo setup and especially with a MAF equipped car, the tune is extremely easy to take care of. The turbo does not cause any real parasitic loss during normal driving. The turbine wheel when spinning is practically invisible to the engine as far as back pressure is concerned. Superchargers are a different story...

I've proven in other old tests that manifold vacuum starts to decrease more with a turbo almost from idle and very low throttle inputs. You might not see any boost at 1/8 throttle but chances are you're already making more power and running less manifold vacuum with a turbo vs non turbo engine. Or in other words, the turbo positively effects the engine even in light duty driving, fattening up the powerband everywhere.

Turbo tuning is nowhere nearly as hard as it's made out to be. All it does is extend the usable throttle range.

Normally aspirated you have a range between -20" and 0psi.

With the turbo your range is -20" to +20psi (or whatever the boost is set at).

Adding fuel for the extra range from 0psi to 20psi is no different than adding fuel from -20 to 0psi, it's just a wider range. The issues occur when you have a car that wasn't designed for FI and does not have the right components to extend the useful range.

Expecting a tune to work on a car that has a 1bar MAP sensor or MAF without enough capacity would be the same as running a .5bar MAP and expecting it to drive right. It's not the turbo's fault, it's the tuner's fault.

phee

iTrader: (5)

inacc. if you make a thread i will believe. finally end all the hating on n20 and show it for what it is. like i said, im trying to be the 2nd gen version of you.

everybody was in disbelief from the diet thread and now its pretty much a HOF thread. do it please?

Inaccurate

No argument here.

But for me, this binary (fully on / fully off) matches my driving style anyway. With my TL Diet, I never use the throttle between 50%-100% anyways. My foot is always at less than 1/2 throttle - or - floored. So, the binary aspect (full on / full off) of nitrous fits me.

For me myself, the nitrous is there to kick some BIG ass. I don't really care about driveabilty. I just care about that Z06 and Cobra Mustang seeing some TL taillights.


Yes. When I mentioned parasitic drag, that was aimed at the s/c.



The nitrous has no part-throttle power augmentation and thus no tuning hassles for part throttle.

Whereas, a s/c or turbo does have part-throttle power augmentation. But, it is harder to tune *the TL* for that advantage.

My foot is always at less than 1/2 throttle - or - floored. So, I am willing to take the lazy way.

Yes. Such as our TL's.

Agreed. It is like you said about the TL not setup for an oem turbo. The point is that it is much easier to setup the nitrous than a turbo *on the TL*. But one must sacrifice part throttle power augmentation.

IN CLOSING -
Like you said before, it comes down to personal preferences. But my point is that nitrous is a viable option that has many advantages. People are so quick to damn nitrous and point out nitrous's flaws. But I aim to point out nitrous's advantages too.

Inaccurate

phee,

I do appreciate your support.

I hate cars

I just spent 20 minutes in several parts typing up a response and screwed up and erased it. I'll get back in the morning. Suffice to say I agree with 90% of it.

Inaccurate

^ With only 90% of it?
.
.
.
.
.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

My reading suggests that the FIC can control pulsewidth. It basically just adds or subtracts +/-100%

If you start to use injectors that are way bigger then stock, the FIC might not have the ability to bring the pulsewidth down low enough for trouble free idling/low power driving.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I miss my car already

Ive seen this guy about 3 times THIS WEEK!! And he drives pretty damn aggressive. We will meet soon my friend

Inaccurate

Hi Bert,

What is your current ride? When is Rodney scheduled to come down? Will Rodney do the teardown (post-mortem) of your previous engine?

Is that a GT-R? I know how you feel. Whenever I am in the wife's car and I have a hotshot next to me...... I wish so bad that I was in my car.

This brings up a funny story. Me and the wife were in her RL. I was driving. She was on the cell phone (distracted from policing my driving). There was a turbo Porsche lined-up with us at a red light.

When the light went green, I made sure that I got the holeshot (one foot on brake and other foot on accelerator). I watched him in my side mirror. He keep slowly adding throttle trying to get ahead of me. I kept adding accelerator too. He finally got the picture and he floored it. His Porsche sounded good at wot

handsom-hustla

iTrader: (3)

^^ this is a great point here. at 410cc they are "almost" double than the stock. I wish I had some informative info to add to this, but I dont.. But Ill most certainly be following .

Majofo

You spotted me!

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I needed a suv for the winter anyway. Last year I got stuck in the snow a few times with the TL. I picked up a 2011 santa fe awd. Hyundai has really come a long way

He was saying february. Its going to take 4-6 weeks for the pistons to be built. Im pretty sure Rodney and myself will be doing the motor work in my girlfriends father's junkyard. He has a few lifts and all the tools we would need.[/QUOTE]

Yes a GT-R.

I took the car out today for a quick drive. Let the a/c run etc. Id rather not have the battery die on me. Car drives great even with only 5 cylinders lol.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Does anyone know the pulsewidth for the stock injectors? Then maybe we can do a little math and find out the limits of the FIC

Although, Ive read that the FIC can handle 1000cc injectors

BostonSilverTypeS

Well you are right, so as long as the turbo is tuned properly but that could be said with the nitrous as well, saying that it's safe so as long as it's done right and not abused....Now In my situation I'm very similar to InAccurate as far as I'm either full on, on the highway with another vehicle or im coasting under 1/2 throttle basically under 3000rpm.

Now another reason is I can get a bottle and all the hardware and basically buy the spray nozzles for $200 minus the spray nozzles and what not.

Which leaves me to pay for the meth kit....I mean sometimes I go months without going full throttle. basically I don't really race or go to the track often espicially with the TL. So to me Im seeing NMI under $1000 for everything including misc. things or whatever is better then $5600 upfront out of pocket.

what he said, why nitrous would work for me....For me is the M3's I see here and 335i...Mustang Cobra's and also anything which would think they would walk all over the TL-S....Also I love the sleeper status of going nitrous...(although turbo on the TL is very sleeper since you can't see the IC until you here the turbo spool lol)




exactly what I was thinking

+1 agreed as well, also you were right as whether you go nitrous route or turbo route both can yield plenty of horsepower...I guess at the end of the day either way done right can be safe and whether your boosted my means of turbo or nitrous if you both make equal power and get down the track same time, then who cares if some call it fake hp or not real power adder....last time I checked nitrous works and gets you down the track and up to speed just fine....only diffirence is once in a while you must fill that bottle, but hey we fill our cars with fuel all the time and for those who go to track and fill their car with race fuel at $10 a gallon, i don't see complaints from filling their tank and saying oh thats just fake fuel lmao!!!

Thanks again and this further clarifies my future decision...InAccurate I will be keeping a close eye on your project and like Phee said I will def follow that thread and not think it's BS for sure!

I hate cars

Just idle it at 5,000rpm and you're good to go.

phee

iTrader: (5)

qoute-what he said, why nitrous would work for me....For me is the M3's I see here and 335i...Mustang Cobra's and also anything which would think they would walk all over the TL-S....Also I love the sleeper status of going nitrous...(although turbo on the TL is very sleeper since you can't see the IC until you here the turbo spool lol)

you'll only see the intercooler if it's mounted on the rear bumper

I hate cars

Your car is a different animal. It falls into the "big V8" category I mentioned earlier. Yours is likely as quick or quicker than a supercharged TL so you're not stuck with high 14 power or mid 13 power.

For me myself, the nitrous is there to kick some BIG ass. I don't really care about driveabilty. I just care about that Z06 and Cobra Mustang seeing some TL taillights. [/quote]

Agreed. The bottom line is who gets to the end first and nitrous will do that.




Just to clear it up for others, turbos have no part throttle issue on a factory setup. The Tl presents unique issues in regards to tuning. It looks like they're getting worked out quickly though.

Not really the lazy way when you consider the time, money, and tuning involved in a proper nitrous/meth combo as I'm sure you already know.

However, I don't want to be stuck with 210hp or 400hp. I would much rather have everything from idle to full throttle and everything in between. I can go half throttle and maybe get 300hp. I can go 5/8 throttle and get maybe 320hp.

I don't want to be limited to the TL's stock power or 400hp (just throwing numbers out there) I want everything in between. Now if we're talking track only, it's fine.


Agreed. It's almost as if Honda did not want these things to be turbo'd. The powerbraking issue in particular was not expected. However, once one person cracks the tune it will be easy after that. In fact, there are no drivability issues out of the box. The only tuning is fine tuning to get better spool and power, to make the turbo even better just as you would do with changing nitrous and fuel jets and turn on point. There are no big drivability issues with the turbo that I know about.

Tuning is super simple but tuning a turbo car somehow gets this stigma like it's hard. The only thing that changes from NA is you have less room for error due to detonation.

A turbo gives you a broader range for the throttle (for lack of a better word)

In NA form, the range is -20" to 0psi. With -20 being idle and 0 being full throttle.

In turbo form, it's -20" to 20psi (depending on boost level)

All you're doing is extending the range and going past 0 and into positive pressure. Adding more fuel for the 0psi to 20psi boost range is no different than adding fuel for a NA range of (idle)-20 - 0psi(full throttle). Timing is pulled at about the same rate vs load for the second half as it is for the first half. It's very simple, but the requirements go up.
I don't damn nitrous. I've installed plenty kits on other peoples' cars and I've run in on my own back in the late '90s to spool the turbo. I still have more knowledge and experience than probably 95% of the people on here.

When we were young, I went the turbo route for obvious reasons. Many friends went the nitrous route. While I have not owned a car long term with nitrous, I've been right there beside close friends that have. There's a learning curve. I blew 3 engines in 3 years learning the value of octane and knock monitoring. They blew stuff up too. The big difference is once I got the tuning down, I've been able to run big hp reliably. The nitrous is pretty reliable too but it's always going to be more likely to hurt something when something goes wrong. Installation and component quality go a looong way in nitrous reliability.

One thing you can never get around is nitrous flat out is harder on parts than a turbo. There are exceptions to what I said though. I good nitrous install will be much more reliable than an average turbo install. But ask some of the guys that are running 6's and have the choice of turbos or nitrous, just about all of the nitrous guys are switching to turbos. It's not for power, it's because they can get a few more runs out of the turbo engines at the same power level.

Do we have to worry about this on a TL that's "only" making 150hp more than stock? Maybe, maybe not.

That's personal preference and it's fine if you like the on/off. But again, with everything else being equal, nitrous is a little harder on parts. It's probably not an issue with a moderate shot but if you plan on pushing the limits I would feel safer doing so with a turbo.
This is something you don't want to cheap out on. You must have the safety mechanisms.
Don't forget refilling the bottle. The difference is you can use the turbo all the time. All you have to worry about is pressing the throttle and if you only want a little boost, you have a little boost. If you drive with nitrous as you do boost, you will be going through bottles daily so it limits how much you can use it.

There's a slight difference. A turbo forces air in that the engine would normally suck in. It's operating the same way as it normally would, only with a compressor forcing the air in. Nitrous is a chemical that's injected into the air stream. I would never make excuses if I lost to a nitrous car but to me it's not the route I would go on a daily driver. Last time I filled a nitrous bottle it was $40, I have no idea how much it is now but I've blown through a bottle in less than an hour. $40 worth of race gas will go much father. Factor in most people don't run race gas anymore, the run methanol which costs the same as premium fuel and lasts for 10 or more full throttle runs and the gap widens.

Inaccurate

I will create the thread. Please give me approx until this weekend to post the new thread. Perhaps in two weeks.

I have many unorthodox approaches to nitrous that will need some intensive explanations. But what else have you come to expect from Inaccurate other than unorthodox ..........

As a side note to those considering going the Nitrous Methanol Injection (NMI) route -

I said that the NMI was more powerful, safer, cheaper, and easier than a s/c or turbo being used on a TL. However, I did not mean to imply that the NMI is completely safe, cheap and/or easy. On the contrary, the NMI relies on several safety features being implemented and basic understanding of tuning principles. To be continued in my NMI thread...........

Inaccurate

Thank you for not damning nitrous.
My comments were aimed at the whole internet. Most car forums hate nitrous and make jokes about it.



You will not get too much of an argument from me on this point. Yes, nitrous can be harder on a car BECAUSE NITROUS MAKES POWER EASILY.

One disadvantage of nitrous is that it makes too much power in the lower half of the powerband. This issue must be managed for the hazard that it is. But problems like this I don't mind... too much power ??? :devilgrin

This is why I make the statement that nitrous is more powerful than a turbo. For the same peak hp, the nitrous will be making more hp in the lower rpms to produce a higher average hp (more area under the curve).


To me, this has a derogatory tone to it. Perhaps I am defensive when it comes to nitrous

Nitrous is a chemical? Yes. So is air. Air is composed on multiples chemical elements such as nitrogen and oxygen. Gasoline is a "soup" of various hydrocarbon chemicals. So why make the comment that "nitrous is a chemical". It sounds derogatory.

The turbo forces more air (greater air mass) into the engine than the engine would with n/a. Nitrous does the same thing. The cryogenic aspect of nitrous causes more air (greater air mass) into the engine via supercooling the air. When the air is supercooled, the air contracts. The cold, contracted air takes up less space. Thus more air is crammed into the cylinders. Note that this discussion is *not* regarding the oxygen aspect of nitrous oxide. This is discussing just the secondary effect of nitrous, which is it's cryogenic abilities to supercharge the engine via contracted air (less volume). Just like a turbo that contracts the volume of air via compressing it, nitrous contracts the air via chilling it.



Yes. Nitrous has it's disadvantages , but it has many advantages too. Just like the s/c and turbo has it's disadvantages and advantages.

Each person has different desires and needs. I want Acurazine members to know their options and to pick the options that fits their needs the best.




I purchased 64 lbs for $129. That is $2.01 per pound. That would be $20.10 for a 10-lb refill.


Okay. This is somewhat misleading. This does not include the price of the delivery charge and tax.

The point is that the cost is reasonable for the gains. Is the turbo or supercharger or nitrous cheaper in the long run? I don't care myself. It is not about money to me. I would run nitrous if it was two, three, or more times more expensive than supercharging or turbo because I just flat out love everything about nitrous. Other than the inconvenience, which I admit is a hassle if you use it too much. This is one of many reasons that I got my own mother bottle.

The main point is modding a car is expensive. As long as it is not crazy expensive, the cost should be nothing to complain about. Racing has always been about who can afford to go the fastest. If someone needs to complain about the cost of going fast, they better find another hobby and be happy with going slow.





Stop arguing with me so that I can get to work on writing my nitrous thread.

I hate cars

I would never hate nitrous or make blanket statements. It does have it's place and as I said, I've run it before.


It's not just too much power down low. The guys that have run it forever will say that it's harder on parts.

Obviously the "too much power down low" is taken care of with a window switch.

Nitrous is less controllable especially at low rpms than the turbo. You're injecting the same volume (hp) regardless of rpm so if you inject a 200 shot at 1,200rpm you're going to have a HUGE torque spike and break stuff. If you give it boost at a low rpm, air volume is still lower than it would be at say 5,000rpm at the same boost so you can actually make more usable low rpm torque with boost with less chances of hurting stuff.

Turbos have no problem making low rpm power anymore and roots superchargers have always been very good at it. In just about any factory turbo car, they're making TONS of power down low and all through the rpm range. The BMW 335 makes full torque by 1,400rpm. The 911 turbo makes the full 460lbs of torque at 1,900rpm. That's amazing torque for any engine even if it were a 7.0 V8 but it says something about the effectiveness of a good turbo design on a little 6 banger. Both of the cars mentioned make almost perfectly flat torque past 5,000rpm.

In the TL's case, we can't make the torque that low on the stock bottom or you blow things up so it's a moot point. This is why nitrous is probably just as good as the turbo in the TL's application from a power production standpoint.
Not at all. I enjoy the discussion and there's nothing personal about it.
You know what I mean. With the turbo, you're forcing more air into the engine the same way it gets there NA. Nitrous is a different gas altogether. It really does not matter that much to me.[/quote]
The secondary workings (cooling) of nitrous are very minor compared to the release of extra oxygen in the combustion chamber.


You know this is entirely misleading. I did a quick search just to make sure nitrous hasn't dropped by 75% since the last time I used it. I've seen it as cheap as you get it but most people are still paying right around $40 for a 10lb bottle.

I assume you're buying in bulk and you possibly have a filling station?
Looking forward to the thread. I may try the nitrous soon. I still have the bottle and solenoids but it's an old fogger system. The jets that are in there should be about right.

Inaccurate

IHC,

You missed the pics of the AirGas truck in front of my driveway. Check the top of this page for the pics.

I hate cars

I saw that but I was thinking "no way" did he buy that much lol. That's how I got meth at $2.99 a gallon too. A 55 gallon drum in the garage is scary.

BostonSilverTypeS

all good points InAccurate and IHC...don't want to clog this thread too much with the nitrous talk versus turbo, so thanks again and very good points from both sides.....I've always been a NA guy, but with the TL and not many NA routes to head then boosting is looking like a good way to go IF DONE CORRECTLY!!

..and IHC agreed on not short cuts on safety mechanisms for sure...I mean buy used but whatever needs to be replaced because it's been sitting out or what not will get replaced with new parts!!

Inaccurate

While writing my nitrous thread, which discusses relocating my IAT Sensor, I had a thought that pertains to the turbo guys.

From doing some Google'ing, most automobiles use the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor among a host of other sensors to look-up timing from the tables during WOT (open loop).

Rodney tuned the turbo kit based on the IAT Sensor seeing hotter temps than Bert's car, which had methanol cooling the inlet charge. If the ecu retards timing with hotter temps and advances timing with cooler temps, Bert could had been seeing higher ignition advance than Rodney had expected. This could cause a difference of perhaps 4-8 degrees of timing. That is, Bert could had been running with perhaps 4-8 degrees more timing than Rodney had tuned for.

Can the IAT Sensor respond that quickly to matter? With my data logging (click here), it looks questionable. However, Bert had liquid methanol hitting the IAT probe. The methanol evaporating on the probe could had made the sensor cool down quickly enough and sufficiently enough to make the ecu increase the timing during short WOT burst.

Can the methanol cause enough of a temperature drop to cause the ecu to advance the timing by 4-8 degrees?

Food for thought

Opel

Thats a very interesting observation, and yes I think methanol would cause the IAT sensor to signal cooler air pretty quick, making the ECU increase timing by a few points.
I think I see where you're going with this, and it does make sense.
My guess is you're saying that this could've been a contributing factor to his motor failure.

However, I don't see how this could happen due to the fact that the engine was in fact being introduced cooler air (even though IAT sensor could've signaled a little cooler), also along with increase in octane. The increase in octane should have been sufficient enough to make up for the increased timing due to a slightly incorrect IAT.

Correct me if my guess is wrong and in case you are suggesting something different

Inaccurate

Good catch Opel. I didn't think about that. I agree. The knock protection from the methanol should offset any possible increases in timing from the cooling effect from the methanol.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Rodney has been using a resistor on his IAT sensor for quite some time now. He has his IAT locked at 75° no matter what the outside temperature is. In other words, his ecu always see's an IAT of 75°. His testing has showed that a temp of 75° is enough to provide full timing from the ecu under perfect conditions (no knock)

I will probably be adding a resistor as well to lock my IAT at 75° so I can run the same tune in the winter and summer.

Rodneys car under wot produces 22° of timing. He has always told me that the 6spd has a more aggressive timing map then the 5at. I NEVER see 22°. The most Ive logged under wot (right after a battery reset and with pure meth) was 18°

My ignition maps in the fic are set to 0°. Which means that the fic is not pulling any timing. The stock ecm pulls timing and adjusts accordingly

Like opel said, I think the meth would provide significant detonation protection from the huge increase in octane.

We still dont even know for sure if detonation was the cause of the failure. I of course will not rule it out until the motor is torn down. My reading suggests that broken ring lands are usually the result from detonation. However, J&R says they experienced the same type of failure but detonation was not the cause. Rather too much power at the crank.

As it stands now, I think Im scraping the idea of the Phormula knock monitor. I will be going with the J&S safeguard for full protection.

Inaccurate

AND


Sort of a blooper for me. I was so involved with writing my nitrous thread last night. I had my mind focused on writing about my nitrous cooling my IAT sensor and possibly giving me too much timing. I forgot about the methanol offsetting the increase timing because my nitrous would not offset it from the cooling.

This is good to know. Seems like our man Rodney is covering all of the bases.

Do we know what resistor value is needed?



I didn't mean to "stir the pot". I was concerned for all turbo users (present and future) that would be running methanol. But now knowing that Rodney locked-out his IAT, my concerns are no longer valid.

phee

iTrader: (5)

interested in this resistor set up. is it just a resistor or does it add voltage as well?

I hate cars

I'm looking forward to the teardown, Bert.

Also interested in seeing how clean your 100,000 mile engine is. I bet the combustion chamber is extremely clean with your water/meth injection. Mine were always new looking with only a light tan tint to the pistons.

Also think it's a GREAT idea to eliminate variables. Keeping the IAT sensor at a constant value is very good.