I hate cars

That is VERY scary. A turbo TL running the same timing in some parts of the map as a stock TL. At least it's in the upper rpms and not the lower rpms. The higher gears are where the biggest timing difference between NA and turbo should be. Hopefully the meth is running full time.

Inaccurate

To give you a feel for how much timing the J32 can tolerate, I can offer this data point.

The only place where mine has detonation is immediately upon shifting into 4th gear under heavy throttle. With 3/4 throttle to wot, my Phormula Knock detector will show heavy detonation within a second or two after the trans shifts into 4th gear. Logging shows that the timing is 25.0-25.5* when the detonation occurred in 4th.

By the way, this always occurs in the morning (75*-80* temperatures) too.

I hate cars

25 degrees really isn't that much for a NA engine but I guess it's the high compression that requires to to be fairly low. But seeing how they like to detonate NA, I would think the turbo version would have less timing than it does.

I look at yours as a best case scenario since the engine is under less load for a given acceleration. I have to get mine back on the scanner soon. I believe the Snap-on offers a print out but I've never tried it.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Good idea.

I believe rodney said the timing for the turbo 5at was around 16° and the turbo 6mt was 18-22°

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Heres the data log of trying to powerbrake and build boost. It doesnt happen. I had the gas pedal planted on the floor and the boost gauge showed -4.5. The car feels sluggish off the line when powerbraking and the tires dont spin either.

Even though the car felt sluggish off the line while powerbraking, I still get almost the same 0-60 (give or take 0.1sec) vs. smashing the pedal to the floor.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Things are looking good for a wednesday track day at englishtown.

A few things.

Suspension settings for the track.
Im reading that for a fwd car we want a soft front and a hard rear. I have the 32way (1stiffest 32softest) megans and I would say that oem is the equivalent of 21ish. Do I want the front to be softer then oem and the rear full stiff? I guess theres no way to know what is going to be best with my particular car without trial and error but what is a good starting point?

Tire pressure
Im using 245/40/18 nitto invos with the psi at 38 all around for daily driving. Do I want to lower the psi a little in the front? A lot? Leave it alone?

Race gas
I always run 93 and now Im always spraying water/meth. Is there any reason to use race gas with the water/meth or am I wasting my money? If so, anyone in particular? C12, 14, 16?

Any other helpful tips?

Inaccurate

Great job on the logging. This solved the powerbraking questions. No powerbreaking in the TL….. Nanny is watching

Bert – it appears that your parameters get polled just once per second. Confused? If polling just four parameters, each should get polled once every 0.55 seconds as discussed here (clickable).

Regarding track preparation – I would leave the rear tires at 38+ to minimize rolling resistance. However, I would reduce the psi in the front to no higher than 32 or perhaps lower. Not that it would matter much however.

Don’t forget to do some dieting too. Loss the spare tire and jack at least.

Are you able to do logging while on the track? If so, it would be great to compare the accuracy of the logging data (MPH versus TIME) against the track’s official clock.

BTW - Congratulations on the 4.6 zero-to-sixty. The logging is showing me that your car is much quicker than I had thought.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

How can you tell each parameter is polled once per second? Is it because at each 1 second interval there is a change in the angle of the line? I could have sworn I changed the interval for the timing to .5 seconds a while ago but I guess the program didnt save it. I know my logging software says it can poll each parameter down to 1/10 of second I believe.

Based on the graph, is it possible to tell if there is wheelspin? I always drive with the vsa off. Does the ecm pull timing when the wheels are spinning with the vsa off? I only ask because if you look at the rpms in first gear, they jump from 3500 to 6750 in 1 second. Seems awfully fast if im not losing traction. What do you think?

Did you also notice that in the above graph it appears that ATP was not cut in-between the 1-2 shift?

Ill probably remove the rear seat and my sub box. That should be good for about 100lbs. No spare tire anymore since it wont fit with the bbk.

I should be able to log on the track. I dont see why not.

phee

iTrader: (5)

drop your front tires to 22psi at the track. don't know why your rears are at 38, 32 is the recommended level and I wouldn't do over 35.

stiffen up the rear as much as possible but don't make the front too soft, this will cause wheel hop with your sticky tires. wheel hop will break things more than spinning tires.

Inaccurate

Right. The change in the angle of each line at each 1-second interval is what causes me to question the polling intervals.

I am even further confused by the following. Each parameter is being updated on the graph at the same time. This is impossible. The logger *must* collect data for each parameter in a serial fashion (serial communication). The logger can Not update all parameters at the same exact time. For our TL, the logger can send a request to the ecu, and receive the data, once every 0.146 seconds. This is the quickest rate that is possible with the TL ecu.

For example –

From 0.000 to 0.073 Sec = The timeframe in which the logger sends a request to the ecu to send back the ATP value.

From 0.073 to 0.146 Sec = The timeframe in which the Ecu sends the requested data to the logger.

From 0.146 to 0.219 Sec = The timeframe in which the logger sends a request to the ecu to send back the RPM value.

The round-trip from requesting to receiving the data takes 0.146 second round-trip. So, how can the graph show that all four values are being updated at exactly the same time.



In the pic above, you can see how my logger displays the values being updated at separate times. Each data points is separated by 0.146 seconds.

In the past, I have never shown the dots on my graphs. My DashDyno software has a switch that allows me to toggle the dots as visible or not shown. Here in this pic, I have the dots turned on so that you can see the individual data points as they were gathered in real time from the ecu.

Most loggers can collect data much, much faster than our TL ecu is able to send it however. Most newer cars are able to send OBDII data extremely quickly compared to our TL.

The point is that although the software is capable of collecting data fast, the TL ecu can only send data once every 0.146 second for a single parameter and no quicker.


I always have my VSA turned on. So, I have no experience with logging while the vsa is off.

I would think that the timing would Not be pulled during spinning with the vsa off.

There is no way to tell from logging if you had tire spin. Perhaps if the wheel spin was extreme, then the graph of the MPH might shot-up quickly and then suddenly drop again as you regained traction.

I noticed this too. I thought about it for a minute. I then thought that this was your turbo boost kicking in. "Turbo Boost Just Kicked in Yo"


I noticed this too. I see the same thing sometimes in my logging. The reason the logging is not showing the ATP cut-out is because of your long time intervals between polling. The ATP cut-out occurred between polling intervals.

Polling Interval = WOT
Ecu does ATP cut-out
Ecu reapplies WOT
Next Polling Interval = WOT

The cut-out occurred when the polling wasn't watching .


100 lbs removed will reduce your ET by 0.1 seconds.


If you do log, then log just MPH only. Just this one parameter. This will give us a much more finer reading.

On the street, while polling constantly, we need ATP and RPM to help us to understand when we were WOT on the street. However at the track, we already know that you will be WOT only.

pass427

With all the data logging info and things learnt along the way we've reached to a point where I must say the aem fic is more than capable of handling all the duties needed for a good tune thru a piggy back .....
Cloosed loop fuel adjustment can be made with fic via 02 sensors when installed and setup properly ,timing maps can be adjusted ,the theory of ecu changing back to stock is well gone as I personaly haven't experienced that assuming all wiring is correct ..Good job Libert I'm glad there's people willing to sacrifice there dd to get info that helps us all along the way Inaccurate and Ihc and phee has been here from the start , with good recommendations and suggestions,especially the ability to log a stock Tl and a boosted for comparison doesn't get much involved than that ...I'll be doing a new clutch in the car soon as I put it in I'll head out to the track and get some times hopefully I'll get suspension by then as the car has a wicked squat on the street in the rear I can't imagine on the track ,and some tires ..I'd love to have gotten sometimes already but with constant working and adjustments ect it has been time consuminig ..
But as you can see we haven't stop working our new design speaks for itself cleaner ,cooler more space ect ...
I'll be posting pics as the first twin disc clutch assemble arrives in my hand in a week or two rated at 750 lb tq holding capacity ..

New fuel return kit with fuel rails ,fuel regulator -6 feed and return line ,new fuel hat for dual walbro setup ..

I hate cars

Very interesting on the powerbraking. I have to assume the ECU sees the brakes on vis the brake switch. If you were going to be spending a few times at the track it may be worthwhile to put a switch in to interrupt this signal so that you can powerbrake. As of now I'm sure it will do no good on street tires.

As far as the pressure, I wouldn't go lower than 32psi, not on radials. The Invo has a fairly stiff sidewall and you'll end up only running on the edges of the tire which is not good. Slicks and even drag radials have a soft sidewall that will flex at low pressures for a flat footrprint. Put the rears up to the max pressure on the sidewall.

I would set the rear suspension to full stiff. I would start the front off pretty stiff too. I'm not familiar with your shocks but most only adjust the reboud, not compression. It's important to have a lot of rebound stiffness so the front doesn't raise up.

You'll probably get just 1-3 runs so it's good to be conservative with tire pressure, suspension, launch, etc just so you can get a clean run in. It would suck to smoke the tires every run.

I hate cars

I forgot the race gas.

I would play it safe and do half a tank of 100 octane along with the meth. You may not need it but it's cheap insurance for the engine. Too much octane won't hurt a thing besides your wallet.

I don't know if you're using a laptop to log but if you are, you need a laptop stand or you need to hide it from the tech guy. They won't let you use it if it's not secured down. Me being cheap I would just hide mine and then open it right before I did my burnout and face it forward on the passenger seat with the screen against the seatback.

Another thought on the powerbraking... I'm sure it won't let you but it's worth a try to see if you can do a rolling powerbrake. Once you run into someone as quick as you and you want instant power, you're going to want to do a rolling powerbrake. I've always done it when going up against really fast cars where you're going fast enough that you can't break traction. You can be rolling 65mph against the brakes with 5psi ready to go. Obviously you only do it for a few seconds at a time.

Last one I promise..... What about using the e-brake to hold your car off the line and powerbraking... At some point you're going to drag the rear end around but it may hold enough to get 1-2psi off the start.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

When I bought the wheel/tire combo they shipped the tires to me with 40psi already in them. Ive read some different posts on what psi people run with 18" wheels and I decided to run 36-38 all around. When I run 32 all around I feel the bumps so much more and the tires actually look low on pressure when you stare at them. Just shy of bulging on the sidewall

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Thanks Inaccurate and IHC for the tips. Ill look into the logging software when I get some time and Ill figure out this polling situation. The instructions with Autoenginuitys software is not very helpful when getting into detail about certain features.

I called the track and found out I need a fire jacket since my car was not equipped with an OEM turbo.

So I picked up a sfi 3.2a jacket for about 65 bucks from a local speedstore

I also got 5 gallons of Vp streetblaze 100 race fuel (Motor Octane:96...R+M/2: 100)

Ill be picking up a snell 2005/10 helmet tomorrow

phee

iTrader: (5)

thought you were on 17's like me :p

I hate cars

That's good to know about the fire jacket being required for a non OEM turbo. I have never heard about that. Make sure your meth kit does not stand out. Even with a mix, they will give you a hard time for having a fuel under the hood even if it's not flammable.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^The tank is in the trunk with the battery and I believe they check to see if the battery is secure. How the hell am I going to hide a 3 gal meth tank with bright red fluid inside LOL? I guess I could thrown a towel over it or something. But that still leaves the bright red tubing going into intake pipe. Not Much I can do with that

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Fyi

all power adder racers with n0n-oem/factory power adders ie:superchargers,turbochargers,or the use of nitrous. Section 1a,page 65 of the 2009 nhra rulebook reads as follows. "10.00(*6.40 1/8 mile) and slower; all e.t.non-oem supercharger,non-oem turbocharged, or nitrous-equipped cars with an oem or .024-inch steel firewall: Jacket meeting sfi spec 3.2a/1 mandatory. " these jackets are affordable. This rule will be enforced!

Inaccurate

I don't recommend the parking brake (aka, e-brake). He will surely "redlight" at the track. I can't remember if the track will give you your ET if you redlight.

According to post by our members with 6MT, the parking brake doesn't even have strength to keep the car parked on a slight incline. The parking brake is crap, power wise.

Inaccurate

Regarding the NHRA Rule Book. You will not be attending a NHRA sanction event. However, I would think that most tracks follow the NHRA rules even for non sanction events, like weekend street runs. The main point is that the local track could have their own local rules on top of the NHRA rules.

I hate cars

I found the solution to that when I was limping my car around with no front pads left. I was waiting on the front Rotora pads to get in, I only drove the car when I had to because the front pads were nearly metal to metal. I used downshifting and the e-brake to stop when I could.

At first my e-brake was as you described. No power whatsoever. I tried to lock the tires and it did not come close. Using it to slow for a light I would pull it all the way up and it was barely a little assist to the downshifting. But...... After using it for a couple days it go MUCH stronger. Right now it will easily lock the NT05s. With it on, I can drag the rear of the car with the tires locked.

Our e-brake shoes never get broken in becuase they're only applied when the car is stationary vs a car that uses the regular brakes as the e-brake. With a little break-in it's easily more powerful than the tires.

TLdream

iTrader: (4)

Since your battery is relocated do you have a cutoff switch at the rear of your car? Also what kind of battery tie down are you using? My local track wouldnt let me run my na j35 prelude becuase i had my battery in the trunk, and didnt have a cutoff switch.


8.1 BATTERIES

All batteries must be securely mounted and may not be relocated into the driver or passenger compartments. Rear firewall of .024-inch (.6 mm) steel or .032-inch (.8 mm) aluminum (including package tray) required when battery is re-located in trunk. In lieu of rear firewall, battery may be located in a sealed .024-inch (.6 mm) or .032-inch (.8 mm) aluminum, or FIA accepted poly box. If sealed box is used in lieu of rear firewall, box may not be used to secure battery, and must be vented outside of body. Strapping tape prohibited. A maximum of two automobile batteries, or 150 pounds (68 kg) combined maximum weight (unless otherwise specified in Class Requirements) is permitted. Metal battery hold-down straps mandatory. Hold-down bolts must be minimum 3/8-inch (9.53 mm) if battery is relocated from stock and other than stock hold-downs are used ("J" hooks prohibited or must have open end welded shut.).

I hate cars

I've made it a point to break the NHRA rules. Heck, I've made 10 second passes with a helmet and a driveshaft loop lol.

Many times the tracks follow NHRA rules. Rarely are they ever more strict than NHRA. On street race night, they don't display your time, it's just a street race with a win light. You need a helmet and that's it within reason for a true street car.

The main thing is to make your car sound slow to the tech guy. If it's a tech guy that does not know my car I'll tell him it runs low 14s as long as my slicks are not mounted. It's good to pull up with quiet exhaust and then uncap it later. I would not show the turbo off, pull up with all plastic in place to hide it and do not mention it. I would even put a K&N sticker on the uppipe. They will catch you if you're running significantly quicker than you should but you can get away with a lot if you're careful. I've been talked to by the timeslip guy that the tower radioed that I can't run anymore or if the car goes any quicker I'm kicked out but they usually don't catch it unil the 3rd or 4th pass.

I hate cars

I've never heard of the cut off being needed just for the battery being in the trunk. I run a fake battery up front. It's an AC Delco plastic shell that looks 100% real and I even put battery cables on it so they never check for one in the trunk.

Trunk mounted battery and cutoff with cutoff behind license plate so it's not visible on the street:



Fake battery under the hood upper left corner:



This setup is really for hustling at the street races, not so much the track.

Inaccurate

Regarding the logging.

I retract my previous recommendation about logging just one parameter, the MPH.

After thinking more about this, it would be good to validate the logging in the same manner in which you normally use it. The logging is normally used with at least three parameters be recorded (at least this is my minimal logging). The three minimal parameters are MPH, RPM, ATP.

So, perhaps log these three parameters (MPH, RPM, ATP) when at the track. This will allow us to compare the track times with the logging data as you would normally be recording data.

Side note - Whenever I drive my car, I am always logging just these three (MPH, RPM, ATP). I log no more than these because more parameters would slow down my polling times.

I can not record less than these three because I need these three as a minimum to make sense out of the huge stream of data collected during daily commuting.

To review my data, I open the session and look for placed where I had 79% ATP (aka, wot). Then, I use the RPM & MPH to determine which gear the trans was in at the time. Then, I collect the MPH and TIME to gauge my acceleration performance.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I dont have a cutoff switch. Im using a plastic sealed box from summit with a vent tube.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1231/

The plastic covers over the turbo sound like a good idea if I cant get away with the battery and meth. Do I have time between when the tech looks at the car and lining up on the track? Meaning do they inspect your car when you first arrive or before you line up?

I guess Ill be calling the track again tomorrow to find out these answers

I hate cars

At most tracks you will have a separate tech line. You'll pull the car up and they will give you a card to fill out and ask how quick the car is. Answer 14.0 or slower. You'll get a number which goes on the tower side of the car and the windshield. Sometimes they supply the shoe polish and sometimes you have to use your own. Some people even bring their own numbers.

Once through tech line they will have several staging lines to line up in. My track usually has 6 open and half of them are for street cars. They will tell you which line to get in for your class. They will run different classes at different times. People are usually good at letting you go ahead or behind if there's a certain car you want to race against. Once you're in the staging lanes, there's no more tech.

When you get up to the front, start going over the launch process in your head step by step. I highly suggest driving around the water box if it's allowed and just a very short spin to clean the tires off but no smoke. Make sure windows are rolled up. You would be surprised just how hard the standard launch process that you've done 100 times before on the street becomes when you get nervous. Have a launch technique in mind ahead of time. On street tire, you will be lucky to hook as well as you do on the street so be conservative on the launch. Don't make any big changes to the car right before the track. Don't pay attention to the guy beside you. Don't worry about cutting a perfect light, the timer starts when you start, not on green. I've sat there for 5 seconds after the green getting the launch perfect.

I always pop the hood once I'm pulling off the track and do the 1/4 mile drive back to the lanes with the hood open. You will probably have from 15 minutes to an hour between runs so there's plenty time to cool down and adjust. I always push the car as the lines move but start it at least a couple minutes before it's run time. You want to avoid heatsoak from sitting there idling but you don't want it so cool that it may do funny things like be slow to spool the turbo from insufficient heat. Remember, you have a front mount intercooler so no matter how long the car sits there, the charge air is getting cooled very well.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^Great info. So do these "techs" physically inspect your car or do they go by whats on the card that you write?

I found this info about the battery and if etown follows these rules then im SOL

I have a street car that I occasionally run at the strip. I've relocated the battery to the rear. What else do I need?
Any car with a relocated battery must be equipped with a master electrical cutoff, capable of stopping all electrical functions including ignition (must shut the engine off, as well as fuel pumps, etc.). The switch must be located on the rear of the vehicle, with the "off" position clearly marked. If the switch is of a "push / pull" type, then "push" must be the motion that shuts off the switch, and plastic or "keyed" typed switches are prohibited. Also, the battery must be completely sealed from the driver and/or driver compartment. This means a metal bulkhead must separate the trunk from the driver compartment, or the battery must be located in a sealed, metal box constructed of minimum .024 inch steel or .032 inch aluminum, or in an NHRA accepted plastic box. In cars with a conventional trunk, metal can simply be installed behind the rear seat and under the package tray to effectively seal the battery off from the driver. In a hatchback type vehicle the battery box is usually the easiest solution, since the alternative is to fabricate a bulkhead which seals to the hatch when closed. At present, Moroso is the only company which offers an NHRA accepted plastic battery box, part number 74050.

I hate cars

Is it possible to find and old bad battery to stick in there. Maybe a motorcycle battery might fit? Cut off some old battery cables at the junkyard and hook them up?

The techs will inspect the car but if you say 14.0 or slower they won't inspect it closely. When I go on street tire, they don't bother to check my trunk.

I would do whatever it takes to hide the meth line, it would be a reason for them to pop the trunk looking for nitrous.

I'm assuming your battery is not in a plastic box? You can probably find one locally. Some boat shops have them.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

Last time I went to this track the tech guys didn't look at anything. All the asked is what time would it be, I said 13ish, also at the time I went I had a suspended license that I didn't know about. All they did was look at my I'd and gave me my number

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

All the times I went to the track they didn't even look at anything either. Like IHC said, just tell em it's a 14 sec car and they won't even bother you.

Shit I can't wait to see this TL run! Your gonna surprise ALOT of people at the track!!

BostonSilverTypeS

the fake battery is your best bet...Like IHC said they inspect your car when you first get there and give you the card to fill out.....If Etown is anything like Epping(NEDragway) then you will be SOL with the battery in trunk without cutoff switch. Also it has to be somewhere they can get to it easily and clearly marked..either way hope you can sneak in for a couple of runs before they catch your TL is too quick or what not..Good Luck!!

p.s. powerbraking at the track a big NoNo I did it when I went first time trying diffirent methods of taking off and that was not a good one....

One that I found to be pretty good was sorta like powerbraking but left foot on brake and with your right foot instead of pegging the gas pedal take it to about 1500rpm or until you start feeling the car fighting the brakes to go forward and back off a tad and hold...when you launch let go of brake and punch it, thats works pretty good!

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I guess I could try and get creative but theres really no room anything. I suppose I could pull the air filter and stick a small battery underneath the intake pipe

I could probably route the meth line under the fuse box so you cant see it but youll still see 2 nozzle holders right by the TB.

Im probably being over cautious with everything and I bet Ill be fine. I would just hate to drive all the way there and have to leave

My battery is in a sealed plastic box with a vent tube

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Lets hope so

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

All they do is ask if your running nitrous and stuff, ask you to open your trunk and look. Its not even tech guys, its the ones before you get in, the ones you pay at the window. Its not as serious as you make it sound. I ran my car there a couple times a few years back and they really care that you have all lights off and your helmet on.

pass427

Hey Libert going to etown most likely they'll look under the hood and without a cutoff switch you won't be able t run I've encountered this at etown already wasn't in a Tl but I'd advise you to get one hooked up it's quite simple hate For you going so far and get turned down .....

Majofo

Does the cutoff switch require a relay or is it a SPST power switch?

In either case this would probably be the easiest route to go.

I hate cars

No relay. In fact, I don't think a relay is allowed.

The trick is, the engine has to die when it's pushed or turned so it means alternator power has to be cut off too. I've seen it tested in the tech line before where it shut off battery power so the car would not restart but did not shut the car off because the alternator kept it running. I believe mine cuts the ground off. They're cheap and easy to install.

It's also good to hide it as best as the rules allow. I've had mine flipped when pulling through Sonic by my friends who thought it was funny. I use a jumper that bypasses the cutoff now.

Majofo

I guess driver side mount near the door would probably be the best.. lol.