I hate cars

Huh? A BOV won't even work on a turbo setup if the throttlebody is before the turbo.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

no updates since august??? im disappointed

Hi speed...how is my motor working for you? is that beast up and running yet?

anyone else??

Majofo

Bert!

flexer

Dang bert, why did you have to sell your project? It was the most exciting build I followed. Would have loved to see you get the auto working and keep the car.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

It's still sitting, I can't pull the engine myself and I am still not sure about what discs to use for the clutch. Both discs looked pretty new but, I figure I should replace them anyway when I have the engine installed. The plan is to get it in this summer, if not earlier. Do you have the part number for the discs you replaced in the clutch?

As far as updates, I drove thru some slightly deep water and damaged both the AFR gauge and the methanol system. I think water got into the AFR controller that is under the car and into the methanol pump. I haven't been driving the car much and haven't had time to look at it.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Don't waste your time with J&R. We spent months trying to work with them to bring these kits back. It was an absolute disaster. They cannot come through on anything, not even responding to emails or phone calls. I waited a month one time for a response.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm still running my turbo but have wicked blowby issues.

I know I have an issue with #5 so I'm going to take off the heads without removing the motor to see what the cylinder looks like. It may turn into tearing it down and then deciding on rods and pistons. The last I checked, it's a 5 week TAT to get either.


Winter here has been brutal, still in the 20's consistently.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

winter blows here too. way too cold to even think about working on the car outside.

Hope you get that meth AFR issue fixed hi speed.

Also KN_TL, what type of issues are you having with cyl #5? I had my spark plug blow out at 60k miles and had to heli coil it. Im hoping I dont run into any problems with it myself with all the pressure inside with the turbo. Did yours blow out originally as well?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I have so much blowby I see the smoke coming out of the fresh air stub on the rear valve cover.

I ran a compression test and #5 was much lower (don't remember the actual amount). I next ran a leakdown and it was way over the limit (again, don't remember the actual number). Because I see the blowby, I am assuming I have a problem with piston, ring, cylinder.

I've never blown out any plugs. I spend so much time looking at the color of my plugs that they're always being snugged down.

There was someone who mentioned many had problems with #5 especially with spitting out plugs. Not sure if it's caused by the outlet of the exhaust being right there but you would think #2 would also be affected.....

maddogtheta

Just read through this whole thread, what an exciting read! Better than some books I've read lately...

I am researching to possibly put a turbo in my 07 TL Type S 5AT. Although from what Excelerate posted yesterday it looks like if I do pull the trigger, it won't be for a J&R setup...

After reading through everything I am still a little confused as to the expected longevity of the motor/trans if I were to keep the whp around 350. I would run redline ATF and get a transmission cooler, and since it's my DD I wouldn't be pushing it most of the time.

Anyways, thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread and the pioneers who took the plunge to turbo the TL in the first place, the knowledge gained is invaluable

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Made some progress on both projects this weekend. Engine is finally out of the crate and on the stand. 347 in the Mustang.

I hate cars

Nice on both. I hope you keep us up to date on the Mustsngs progress as well.

You know, a GT76 would spool practically instantly on a 347 and make a very streetable 800whp on pump gas and a mild tune.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Hey man, any progress or update since our last conversation a few days ago?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Looking for parts. A place I thought would be good and is close to where I live came back and asked where I got my part #'s from. Since they were from the catalogs, I politely told them I am going to keep looking.

I found a place for the piston/rings, going to order them this week.

The rods...your statement in the other thread now has me wondering, keep the stock rods and go with pistons/rings and valve springs?

I'm also going to do ARP studs while the heads are off......

I sent you an email just a little while ago. Thanks for the advice!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Pistons/Rings ordered!!!

Atlas.46

which ones did you decide on?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I went with CP SC70404's. Will put me in the 9's for C/R.

Also just ordered a set of ARP head studs....

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Yes, I stand behind that statement too. Given your tune is dialed in correctly and you're not going 15lbs+ on the boost pressure, stock rods will suffice. The moment you start poking around in the knock zone, they will quickly become toothpicks...so don't be too greedy on the timing/boost.

Speaking of connecting rods, I began some research last weekend on testing various connecting stock rods from most of Acura's j-series engines to see which one is strongest. I'm awaiting the arrival of a 2014 RLX 3.5 rod to begin actual testing. We may not be able to use the RLX pistons but I'm hopeful the rods can be used as they should be like the pistons are. The pistons are most definitely a denser alloy. The RLX 3.5 is a DI engine and therefore the compression ratio, combustion temps, and power levels are higher. It's an obvious fact Acura has beefed up the rods as well.

The valvetrain should be ok if you don't expect to be raising stock rev limiter and/or running high lift cams. There's a guy that raised his boosted 700hp stock motor by a few hundred RPM's and quickly dropped a valve. Funny how it wasn't the power that killed the motor, it was that minute adjustment in his tuning.

Also, I completely overlooked your email. I'll get to it sometime tomorrow and answer all questions.

flexer

That guy has been running 2 years now on a stock bottom end over 700 whp.

Majofo

I hate cars

You've probably mentioned it already but who has been running over 700hp for 2 years and on what stock bottom end? Is it stock or is it "stock"? I have no doubt the stock block and crank will handle 1,000+hp. It's the J32 pistons and rods that look weak or are we talking about a J32?

Majofo

I can't remember, but did Bert ever bend a rod during the build?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

It hard to see it in a photo but Yungone501 was right on the money with the weak land statement (between the top and 2nd ring). Only on #5 but there are two chunks missing...

But, the cylinder wall isn't gouged or even scratched and I can't find the missing metal. How can something like that not cause more damage???



Pistons shipped yesterday and will be here Monday. Once I get them and can measure the small end opening, I'll order the rods....

Atlas.46

Thats pretty lucky that the walls were not damaged also. Are you looking at using stock rods from another j-series or aftermarket. I love how some of you guys are open with details and problems you have.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm going with Pauter rods. They come in std and oversized small end widths so I want to wait for the pistons before ordering.

They have them in stock so the wait will be minimal.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

good to know . Guess no 2 stepping for stock motor

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Make sure the new pistons you order have lowered ring lands for forced induction. The reason the happens is because the lands are not only weak, but they are also too close to the piston dome and this makes them vulnerable to the tremendous levels of heat brought on by boost....especially when knock or lean mixtures are involved.

Glad to hear you found the problem.

flexer

It is a stock j32. He ran the motor bone stock, said he has never opened it up or even taken the heads off, with stock transmission for a full year and then he tried to turn the rev limiter up 300-400 rpm and dropped a valve. Now the motor is stock bottom end with the heads having springs in it. His build thread can be found on j32a.com

Edit. I should add he is on a full AEM standalone on a single borg warner S366 at around 21 psi I think.

I hate cars

That's impressive. I'm sure he knows it but not only does higher rpm demand more spring pressure but more boost demands more intake valve spring pressure.

I've replied to this thread twice on my phone now and forgot to hit send in reply to Majofo.

I can see the stock parts possibly holding up to the cylinder pressure of 700hp for a while but not the thermal stress. The factory did not leave enough ring gap and as Yungone501 said, the top ring land is too high along with the wrong alloy and not enough material in the pin area. So taking the stress is one thing but taking the stress and heat for extended periods is probably the biggest problem. I'm going to guess the guy with 700hp most likely did short runs like 1/4 mile runs with cool down time between runs?

I'm going to guess KN's ring land broke due to the rings butting together from the heat. It would be interesting to see someone pull apart a stock J32, file the rings a little and reassemble and see how long it lasts under longer runs in boost. At some point, the pistons are going to soften up but I bet with more ring gap the number of piston failures will be reduced.

And to KN, I think you're making some great decisions in your build. I know most people don't care what I have to say but I think lowering your compression and going with good rods is a great idea. The compression will allow more power on a given octane plus help slightly with spoolup and the rods will ensure a long life. Are you going with stock length or longer rods? I didn't see if you were going with aftermarket pistons or not so I only ask, wondering if you planned to take advantage of a longer rod length if you're doing the pistons.

daso

Theirs No Way Stock Rods FOR A Tl Can't take the pounds u would need to convert them

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

In response to IHC's comment on filing the ring gap wider, this would quite possiy be the correction for many of the broken ring lands I've seen on stock motors running 8lbs+ on boost. KN_TL, you should seriously consider doing this with your current build in addition to running lowered lands on the pistons. Just ask whomever the ring manufacturer is on what the ring gap should be set at when running X amount of boost.

Btw, the on j32 that was running 700hp+, does anyone remember what fuel he was using? I'm assuming with a 15-16:1 effective compression ratio (ECR) that he would have to be running something other than pump gas.

Atlas.46

Think it was e85 or c16. I cant remember

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm sticking with the stock length It was suggested by bmeyer that I stay away from a stroker as he ate his transmission very quickly. Even Libert69 had transmission issues with the levels hp he was producing.

Thanks to both of you on the suggestion of more end gap. I'll see if I can get ahold of anyone @ CP Carrillo who would have that info.

It's funny you mention 8lbs of boost. That was where I limited myself hoping that the stock engine would last. I guess I was just at the threshold.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Thanks. That's still pretty impressive tuning regardless of fuel type. To run that much boost on a stock bottom end is ONLY possible due to some great tuning skills....period.

Actually, I wouldn't really call it a "threshold" by any means. It mostly comes down to how smooth the power is transferred onto the bottom end, IMO. Any sort of sloppy tune or shock brought on by detonation is what really breaks parts on the rotating assembly. I'm not sure if you've ever driver a well tuned car opposed to one with a poorly tuned ECM but it's a night and day difference on many levels. The delivery of the power, the smoothness in acceleration, properly placed powerband in a rev range being strongly felt, all sorts of stuff comes into view when you're paying close attention.

When you get this bottom end back in the car, take the initial life of the engine with utmost care. No boost for the first 500-750 miles. And even after that, very little boost. Whomever your tuner is, you watch him and make sure knock counts are being monitored at all times (in addition to AFR's) and zero are being ignored. It angers me when I hear people say "ghost knock" when referring to knock counts on their datalog....especially when talking about a j-series. These motors knock under such easy tasks when boost is involved. But that's generally with stock CR's.

With 9.0:1 CR pistons, you should be able to run 12-14lbs of boost on pump gas with ease. Possibly a few pounds more if the tuner knows his stuff. There's something I mentioned previously called "ECR" which again stands for Effective Compression Ratio. It's a formula that reveals a motors true compression while under a certain amount of boost. Though often NOT used when determining a target boost level or compression ratio of a motor, it is probably one of the most important things you can do to ensure the well being of the engine itself. The formula is as follows:

SQ. ROOT ((BOOST + 14.7) / 14.7) * CR = ECR

Here's an example. I'll use your compression ratio and show what using 14lbs of boost equates to just to give you an idea of what you'll be sitting at.

((14+14.7) / 14.7) = 1.95

SQ ROOT of 1.95 = 1.39 (squarerootcalculator.com)

1.39 * 9.0 = 12.5

ECR = 12.5:1

The basic rule of thumb is to stay around 12.4:1 on pump gas when calculating an engines ECR. At 12.5:1, that's right around where you need to be. In other words, 14lbs is SAFE zone for the motor you're building with the 9.0:1 CR using pump gas. Now obviously, this is just to give you an idea and won't be including the countless other factors that are involved when calculating boost to compression ratios. But this is the same formula that Formula One uses to determine their boost levels with the exception of an altitude factor. You could easily go above this with a tuner who knows what he's doing. Or adding things such as meth injection. But again, this is just a safe zone for those not putting a lot of thought into the matter.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, I've seen people explain it, read it, really didn't care until now and didn't absorb the information. But now I get it.

I do have a meth injection system (Alky) based on Matt's suggestion (I do listen to you). Also have a bunch of watered down solution and I know I should run pure methanol, but Matt's story about riding with his buddy with meth leaking in the trunk spooked me.....I'll likely get over it and eventually run it.

Also, CP does provide this information. Can't find the ring location specs but I will compare when I get them

flexer

I break all my engines in using the HARD method. They have held together for thousands of miles and burn zero oil. There is a link on this website to a guy named motoman or something. Go have a read.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced..._Break_In.html

Majofo

21 psi.. get the fuck out of here.

I hate cars

Very, very good post! I fully agree with everything. For high hp stock bottom end cars I shoot for a slightly lower effective CR or use more octane than I'll ever need for safety.

About taking it easy for the first 500 miles, that's fine but break-in consists almost solely of ring to cylinder seating. Journal bearings such as the rods and mains have no break-in. The vast majority of the break-in is done in the first 30 minutes or less. Some of this is just personal preference, you can take it easy for 500 miles or you can drive it hard right away. I usually set my boost to 10psi for the first couple weeks and then start turning the wick up but I have a little fun with it even in the first 10 miles. In fact, I like to push it a little because if something is going to give, it will give no matter how you break it in and I would rather find out early on that something was wrong. I'm just talking, your advice about break-in is good.

KN- Sorry, I was meaning just the rod length, not a stroker crank. I have no idea what length the stock rods are, for all I know they might be great as is. When possible it's not a bad idea when you're already building an engine and ordering parts to try and go with a longer rod. The piston pin height is raised the same amount the rod is lengthened so nothing changes like compression or displacement. Pistons would have to be ordered for the rod length you're using.

A longer rod allows the piston to stay near TDC longer and it's kind of like free power. With the turbo you'll be able to make all the power you'll ever need so it's probably not worth the trouble.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I am using a combo that bmeyer used so I am not absolutely sure about the specs. He was very meticulous so I am confident things are correct. It's too bad he went to BMW but if given the opportunity, I would defect to an M as well.

EDIT:

just measured the stock rod and piston, length of rod and compression height is the same as what I am replacing. I forgot that bmeyer said the pistons are dished......

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Ive read his articles before. Sounds knowledgeable and seems to back all of his claims up but Im sticking to the "dont fix whats not broken" saying to the method Ive always done.

I must say, most of his methods sound a little bizarre...


I look at the art of engine tuning much like politics or religion. There are too many variables to consider and weigh for one method to be the ONLY way. And yes, its a practical thing to say that the lower the ECR is, the safer you will be while running boost. However, with engines, its all about paying close attention to the small details. You try doing this in politics and you will end up losing your sanity.

Ive never really liked BMW until not long ago, I was road testing an older 98 M3 after replacing an injector and was very surprised in how much I enjoyed driving the car. Im talking an inline 6 with roughly 280hp but man that thing was FUN. After that very drive, I looked into buying one but it was short lived due to my passion with these damn J motors. BMW has earned my respect since then.

Also, be on the lookout this weekend for a j-series thread Ill be making for specs and measurements on a multitude of parts. Ive acquired many in the past several years.