flexer

IHC, how does one raise overall line pressure on a transmission like this?

J. R.

I hate cars

Originally Posted by I hate cars
Sorry. I meant electronic boost controller. It's better to have good response and electronically alter it. It's basically creating a variable volume "vacuum leak" to the wastegate to alter the vacuum signal, making the wastegate stay slightly open.

Simplest explanation I've heard yet for wastegate principle/operation. Understood 100%.

You bring up a good point that's unique to the TL. It's stock head configuration looks like it was meant to hang a turbo off of. It would fit into the exception category where twins have the potential to spool quicker than a single. Generally speaking, twins have more dynamic weight and more friction than a single. You have two shafts instead of one. Double the bearings. And one large wheel will weigh less than two smaller ones.

HPD capitalized on that idea with mounting the turbo onto each head but it was sort of yelling at me prior to seeing them do that. It was considered. You speak about the friction concern and I see minimal concern if you're talking about bb shafts as well as smaller wheels inside. Atleast not enough to remove the idea as a viable option...HPD obviously didn't seemed concerned. Nevertheless, friction is more than likely added.

Having the turbos bolted to each head with no plumbing between the heads and turbo might make up the difference in spool and then some.

One myth that you don't have to worry about is the volume of air on the intake side. While reducing it on the exhaust side helps with spool, increasing volume/pipe length on the intake side will usually produce no measurable difference in spool.

What if the entry point to the intercooler is altered to offset the added intake side? Aside from this, wouldn't the engines exhaust gases flow much slower to the turbo than the turbos charge reaching the engines TB? Just a thought/idea...

I'm looking forward to your build. The single obviously works fine, just make sure your guy concentrates on keeping the shortest exhaust path to the turbo possible. You'll want the crossover pipe absolutley no larger than 2.25" with 1.75" or 2" being better. With headers, it's usually better to go with larger diameter primaries and have them as short as possible. There's a way to use an undersized crossover in a single setup that will improve spool and cost zero hp up top.

Sorry. I meant electronic boost controller. It's better to have good response and electronically alter it. It's basically creating a variable volume "vacuum leak" to the wastegate to alter the vacuum signal, making the wastegate stay slightly open.

Simplest explanation I've heard yet for wastegate principle/operation. Understood 100%.

You bring up a good point that's unique to the TL. It's stock head configuration looks like it was meant to hang a turbo off of. It would fit into the exception category where twins have the potential to spool quicker than a single. Generally speaking, twins have more dynamic weight and more friction than a single. You have two shafts instead of one. Double the bearings. And one large wheel will weigh less than two smaller ones.

HPD capitalized on that idea with mounting the turbo onto each head but it was sort of yelling at me prior to seeing them do that. It was considered. You speak about the friction concern and I see minimal concern if you're talking about bb shafts as well as smaller wheels inside. Atleast not enough to remove the idea as a viable option...HPD obviously didn't seemed concerned. Nevertheless, friction is more than likely added.

Having the turbos bolted to each head with no plumbing between the heads and turbo might make up the difference in spool and then some.

One myth that you don't have to worry about is the volume of air on the intake side. While reducing it on the exhaust side helps with spool, increasing volume/pipe length on the intake side will usually produce no measurable difference in spool.

What if the entry point to the intercooler is altered to offset the added intake side? Aside from this, wouldn't the engines exhaust gases flow much slower to the turbo than the turbos charge reaching the engines TB? Just a thought/idea...

I'm looking forward to your build. The single obviously works fine, just make sure your guy concentrates on keeping the shortest exhaust path to the turbo possible. You'll want the crossover pipe absolutley no larger than 2.25" with 1.75" or 2" being better. With headers, it's usually better to go with larger diameter primaries and have them as short as possible. There's a way to use an undersized crossover in a single setup that will improve spool and cost zero hp up top.

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I just saw this, sorry.

Friction and rotating weight is extremely important when you're taking something that's spinning 0-1,000rpm during idle depending on size and spooling it up to 100,000rpm. Just a little extra friction or weight will make a difference. With twins you have twice the friction and 1.5 times more rotating mass than a larger single of the same capacity.

The intake tract should be free of restriction no matter what the application but most importantly no the inlet side of the turbo. Inlet restrictions before the turbo cost more hp and spool because they increase the pressure ratio.

The crossover merge point depends on application. I like to keep them separate and place the single turbo right on the header of the close bank and let the high energy exhaust right out of the head help with spool and bring the other bank in right at the turbo. Mergin the crossover at the bottom of the turbo side header is fine too as long as it's done right. Like I said, I've done some stuff that makes all of this irrelevant but it's one of the rare things I won't share because I haven't seen anyone else do it yet and it gets backpressure extremely low.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for explaining some of my questions/concerns. The dynamics of a turbo are so broad that logical understanding no longer applies when learning about them. Lol. You have a great way of explaining things though and this makes you a very useful tool and member around here. Something we need more of...especially with the J-series motors. So little is really known (even though some know ALOT) about them and not many have really discovered their potential. I'm a long time car guy and I've never been so intrigued with a series of engines and that's because I realize what a jewel these engines are. Despite having been in production now for 15 years (wow!), Honda still uses the design and installs them in their cars today. Other than maybe the SBC, I can't think of many other motors that hold a title of such....except maybe the Northstar?

As for a comment you made, you stated that having the turbo as close to one bank so that it gets immediate response from that bank...I feel this man. Other than obviously reducing overall lag time by 50% (?), seems like a good way to also smooth out the power being applied to the drivetrain too. Rather than immediate OFF and ON power from boost, you know? It's more like an incremental, staged process.

I have 2.5" oval transitioning to round 2.5" out of the head and then being "softly" reduced to 2" about 12" before entering the turbo. I imagine the sooner the reducer drops the diameter, the more time the airflow has to straighten out before entering the turbo which should help with any turbulance that could hinder effeciency if it were done at (or near) the turbo? Or is airflow even a concern on the exhaust side of the system...as it moves slower than the intake side?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Edit from last post:
After thinking about my comment on not many motors carrying a series as far as the J...I forgot that all three big domestics (Ford, Chevy and Dodge) have been carrying theirs longer. Some over 20 years. But their motors suck...so it doesn't count. :-)

I hate cars

On the high energy side of the turbine keeping exhaust system (piping) volume low is the biggest concern. Restriction takes second place to this. Of course this can change depending on the application but usually and especially on a street driven little V6 this is the case. If you have a race car that never goes below 5,000rpm or a drag car that has a high stall, say 5,000 stall converter, you can start focusing on flow a little more and disregard volume somewhat. One of our GNs has a 4,500rpm stall converter with a HUGE turbo and some headers we really took a chance on but it spools fine due to the torque converter. It is a little lazy, response isn't great but it's able to spool reasonably quick (it's a 4.5L V6) and hit full boost while standing still.

It sounds illogical but the first 6"-9" out of the turbine is very important. The gasses exit the turbo in a vortex and it's important to allow that to happen unrestricted when possible. So basically bringing the downpipe straight out of the turbo as far as you can before making the bend is best.

There's actually more velocity on the exhaust side. Coming out of the exhaust port, exhaust gas can be at supersonic speeds. It slows quickly as it fully expands into the exhaust manifold and piping and begins to cool. You have the same mass of air exiting the engine that you have entering the engine but it's got a lot of energy from combustion.


I've invloved with these cars and turbo cars since the mid '90s in highschool and I remember when these cars were laughed at when me and my father in each of our cars would pull into Sonic where all of the street rods and muscle cars would go with a little V6 and a turbo. No one had an ounce of respect for turbos back then but they sure as hell did when we were through. They were seen more as a gimmick at first. I've seen so many things tried over the years, including using the AC compressor the chill water that's circulating around the intercooler to nitrous to spool the turbo which I used back in the '90s, to some header manufacturers routing the exhaust crossover pipe that connects one bank to the other in front of the engine instead of the factory routing behind it in order to save a few inches of piping for better spool. Hooker headers tried to adapt their naturally aspirated V6 headers for turbo use by having both banks shoot straight down, connect in a "Y", and all 6 cylinders worth of exhaust come back up in a single pipe to the turbo. It added a ton of volume and people were complaining that thier 500+hp GN would not spin the tires from a dead stop because lag was so bad. Some people tried diesel turbos. Some used and still use propane injection but most run meth injection. Some even used hydrogen peroxide injection which in just about every case blew the engine but made a ton of power. There have been so many gimmicks and experiments over the years it's almost funny to look back on it now.

With the new generation of turbos those old gimmicks are a thing of the past. Spool and backpressure are drastically improved. It's hard to believe I had to run nitrous back in the day that shut off once it hit 10psi boost just to get the thing to spool.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Very entertaining info and stories man. The AC compressor one made me laugh as I've seriously considered a way to use it efficiently but wasn't too long before I realized that I'd never spend power to make even more power...or atleast an amount that could be appreciated and justify the use of the compressor. Because you seem like a somewhat self learned, experimental person, I'd like to get your opinion on something that I've almost actually made into a prototype until I spoke with a respectable mechanically engineer and was laughed at (shhh).

So here's my idea...well was mine originally if somebody steals it from here. ;-) Back in HVAC training I had at an old profession I had, they taught us about all the variations of refrigeration cycles. One of them was (forget the actual name) a concept that involved using heat as the source of energy of which was then converted into a variation of mechanical energy by effectively raising pressure within a pumping mechanism that created a refrigeration cycle...basically it was self sufficient as long as there was a heat source. My idea was obvious: placing the pumping mechanism directly onto a manifold or heat collector system and then using a means to meter the pressure internally if too much heat was ever added for safety. After which , the evaporator could be then used in the airflow of the intake system to remove a substantial amount of heat then of course, effectively increasing power.

Any preliminary thoughts from any of that brief explanation?

flexer

IHC, I want to get this right before I correct you because I've never seen you wrong before. Are you saying two small twin turbo's have 1.5x the mass as a single of equal flow?

J. R.

I hate cars

Yep. That's speaking in generalities of course. There are always exceptions. If you talk compressor and turbine wheels only, it's not true. When you look at total rotating weight including the shaft a single will usually have less rotating mass.

Got to go, an old friend is getting ready to fight in the UFC.

spade0698

IHC,

What's your take on sleeveing a J35 short block with a turbo setup?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

^^^
Good insurance above 500hp although there are some that have taken these motors up to above 700hp with stock sleeves. The rods are the first to go, trust me. :-)

flexer

Had a great conversation with some Garrett engineers before the GTX turbo's came out why they don't offer anything geared more towards higher P.R.'s there response was that it would be better to go twin at that point. When I asked why they said for better spool and midrange power. That the rotational inertia to spool two small turbo's is always better than one single of equal power at lower boost levels. Meaning lets say you want to make 800 whp at 20 psi. Two GT28RS turbos will make that or one GT45R. The twin GT28RS turbo's will out spool the GT45R and make the 800 whp at 20psi.

Now things get tricky. What if your not running low boost. What if you run 30+ psi P.R.'s? Now its not the same story. If you run race gas so that you can run 30+ PSI, now you can make 800 WHP on a GT40/94R which would spool the same as the GT28RS turbo's so its a wash. BUT this is the case on inline motors. Move to a 'V' type motor and you can have shorter exhaust runners and better designed manifolds for quick spooling midrange torque and now the twin turbo set-up is making more midrange again.

I have seen many twin guys on V motors go to single and then back to twin and the dyno's don't lie, and neither do the garrett engineers. A matched comparison of turbo's the twins will spool faster and make equal power, but they come with price and complexity.


J. R.

I hate cars

That's a partial truth but only part of the picture. The twins will usually be more linear like I said. This can mean more midrange boost. Depending on how you look at it, they can spool quicker meaning boost coming in at a lower rpm. However, in stabbing the pedal to the floor and counting the seconds to full boost, the single will win most times. It's more of an on off deal.

You might have misunderstood regarding the higher pressure ratios. Parallel twins are not better by any means but sequential twins are. You've got to remember that while 30psi is considered high for a gas engine which I regularly run and I've even taken the old T64 back in the old days out past 37psi but that's low compared to 200-300psi some diesels run that might require 3-4 sequential turbos, one feeding into the other to reduce each one's pressure ratio.

flexer

Its true on the diesel front. I just didn't want any of the forum readers here thinking that a single set-up is going to spool faster and make more midrange than a twin set-up on a V motor. If done right......the twin turbo set-up will on avg. spool faster and provide more area under the curve at boost levels that don't require E85 or race gas.

J. R.

I hate cars

It usually comes down to spool at a lower rpm, twins might have a small advantage, basically at what rpm can you hit full boost. This is independent from rotating weight. Time from when you smash the pedal to the floor and full boost arrives, usually a larger single. Like I said, there are exceptions especially with the newer stuff but that that's the way it usually is. For instance the 335 hits boost at a lower rpm than my large single but even though some consider the 335 as having instant boost, it doesn't. My GN hits full boost as quick or quicker than a 335 and that's with a turbo that flows considerably more air than the pair of turbos on the 335. The reason why is I have a 2,800rpm stall converter so now the rpm at which it spools is not a concern anymore since it's capable of hitting full boost by 2,800rpm. Only how long it takes for the full hit matters now. In fact, I run into compressor surge at part throttle and try to drive around it.

Times are changing especially with the newer GT stuff. Lag is mostly a thing of the past and there are many good combos that produce little lag and good top end. There used to be a clear cut turbo that you used for a certain stall converter with certain mods if you wanted streetability. Now there's many different turbos that will work on a given combo due to the new wheels and partially due to the bearing technology.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

light just popped on. pretty good gas mileage for 500+hp. highway/city driving with plenty of wot runs

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Looks like 20 mpg, not bad. I am getting 18 mpg mostly due to the rich mixture and not being able to avoid WOT runs. I really need to get into the ECU and pull some fuel to bring the mpg up to closer to 25 mpg.

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

This thread makes me want boost. So. damn. bad.

I hate cars

That's the beauty of forced induction, mpg doesn't suffer that bad unless you're under boost a lot. Otherwise not much has changed over stock that would affect mileage. At more than double the factory hp of my turbo car I beat the factory freeway mpg by 5mpg now. City used to be only 8mpg due to a heavy foot and a very loose converter but now its right at the stock 17mpg if I drive it nice which is somehow more than the TL gets in the city. Maybe it's time to replace the O2s in the TL.

I hate cars

It's great that Bert's TL gets good mileage still with the lower mechanical compression. I've always thought the higher average manifold pressure makes up or partially makes up for the compression loss with greater dynamic compression of the turbo engine.

hondamaint

We got our M-factory forged straight cut 3rd and 4th gears on our TL transmission for our turbo Odyssey. The work great . Not as loud as I thought they would be. Normal driving they make a small whine but at redline they make a really cool whine. Enough that the first couple times I lifted because it shocked me a little.
They shift great and run with no issues. Unless you noticed the whine you would not know they were there. Patrick said"This will fix your issue".
We are running 19lb of boost and 532whp and 460ftlb of torque.
So far so good.
Check out our facebook page for some pictures.
Honda manufacturing of Alabama race team

Paul Street
Honda Manufacturing of Alabama

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the update, Paul!

Enough of you F/I guys ready to plunk down some money to get a set of our own??

Edit: I forgot to ask.. are you guys running stock axels in the Odyssey? Any trouble with them?

I hate cars

I love the sound of straight cut gears. Great job, I'm looking forward to some others in a TL. I have one straight cut planetary gearset on my first gear but it doesn't last long enough lol.

hondamaint

Yes stock. Until last year we were still running a stock set that came on a preproduction unit in 04. The axles are not an issue.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Setup was completed this weekend. Time for tuning...

JoshD_99EM1

Wow! Incredible! Cant wait to see the numbers. Whats your goal?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

For now? 550hp. Want things to last on this one for a while.

05_NBP_TL

iTrader: (1)

pohljm

nice beads

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Off topic, but I hate cars, can you clear out your inbox? I had a quick motor question for you.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

If I had a dollar for every time Ive seen this...

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Short and simple, I was in a accident and the car is totaled.

Good news, motor, trans, turbo kit (minus 2 intercooler pipes) are fine.

Story...ill say it now, i wasnt even racing. Just driving home from work. Thats the part that pisses me off the most. At least if I was racing I could blame myself and say the car went out like a champ doing what she was made to do lol.

I was crusing at 70mph in center lane. I see in the passenger side mirror some headlights coming up very very fast in the right lane. Didnt pay much mind to it because i was on the hfl and his lane was clear ahead. This a*shole cuts in front me and clips my front bumper. I swerved hard into the left lane, car fishtailed and went into the center concrete barrier on an angle. Bounced off the barrier and went across 3 lanes, clipping another car and going basically head first into the shoulder barrier.

I blacked out for a little bit but when I got out, the only car that was stopped was the one I hit when going across the lanes. The car that started the whole thing was gone.

I walked away with just some soreness so im lucky.

My car is considered totaled but I bought the salvage back. Not sure what direction to go right now. I want to part EVERYTHING out but that just might be a huge hassle. I have the equipment and shop space needed to tear the car down, including pulling the motor.

On the other hand, I have considered picking up a used 6sp TL and swapping every thing over and making a complete sleeper.

Needed another car so I picked up a 2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec. V8 429hp. Not bad for a hyundai lol

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

holy fucking shit !!!

Glad you are ok Bert...and yes the new hyundai's are sick

I hate cars

That f-ing sucks. I never expected to hear this. Glad you're ok though. For all intents and purposes you had the quickest and fastest TL on the planet. So when does the turbo go on the Genesis?

Did they get the guy that started the whole thing?

I hate cars

I feel like it's the end of an era.

Atlas.46

I agree :-( glad your ok.

Brennan8

Glad your ok dude that sucks but if your looking to part out pm me with prices on stuff and ill let you know if im interested

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Heard about your car man. Sorry to hear. Trust me when I say I know how much time and money you had invested into it. What I couldn't fathom is how horrible it would be for this to happen to a car that's so precious to you (and many others, lol). Hopefully something better comes out of the tragedy...it usually works that way.

pohljm

Glad your OK, sucks that it had to go down that way!

Marcelechka

A car can be rebuilt, a life cannot...

Good to know you made it out ok!

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear about the car Bert. I think I would have to get another TL and rebuild. I have nightmares about something like this happening. Glad to hear you are ok and most of parts are reuseable.