I hate cars

I might have missed it but is the exhaust too quiet or too loud? I'm assuming too quiet since its turbocharged. I've found that by running mild steel mufflers of the same design will net a little more noise and a deeper tone. Some of the exhausts touted as raspy will sound more normal with the turbo. Keep in mind your approaching 700 crank hp, a single 3" is not that big. Is your wastegate venting to atmosphere or is it tied in somewhere?

I would start by dropping the resonator.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^too quiet. wastegate is routed back into the downpipe. orginally i had the wastegate venting to atmosphere but the sound coming from the dumptube was not only crazy loud, but sounded like shit.

im looking at the electric exhaust cutouts now and may put one on the bottom of the downpipe.

Majofo

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

It will sure kick the sound up a notch or two. I like decel and idle, but WOT sounds too raspy and cheap for me. The volume of the exhaust also makes me feel like I am pushing the car harder than with the cutout closed. It is a good bit of additional sound. The down side is having to cut down the cat back to make it fit, since the turbo kit is made to bolt up directly to the down pipe and I wasn't going to mess with the down pipe.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^sound clip?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Pm me with your email I will get you a sound clip.

TLove It!

iTrader: (1)

C'mon now, don't be selfish You KNOW we all love to hear a sound clip!!

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I don't know how to post a sound clip, but would be happy to send it to anyone who does.

TLove It!

iTrader: (1)

I wish I knew how, but wouldn't it be the same as posting a video?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

done

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

upload it to photobucket and post the link here

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Is this for a sound clip or video? I plan to get to this today.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

its been about 800 miles since my last oil change (redline 5w40) and im down about 1 full quart. i still have that leaky turbo coming from only one chra bolt. after every time i drive the car and shutdown, a small area of the chra is wet with oil. its about a one inch square area. i would say it equals to maybe 3-4 droplets of oil if that makes sense.

emptied the catch can also (800 miles) it had about 2-3 ounces of oil/gunk in there. does that seem excessive for that mileage? (wot through mostly 3rd and 4th at least once every time i drive)

intake manifold is dry
oil pan is dry (no drips)
valve covers are dry

*i need to pull the intercooler piping and check the intercooler for oil*...last time there was a significant amount in there but that was from the old motor with the broken rings and crazy blow by.

at startup there is white smoke out the exhaust and also at idle. doesnt smoke while driving or under load.

turbo does not smoke

i guess its possible that the accumulation of oil coming from the chra every time i drive, could equal that one full quart that i lost but i just dont know.

the smoke at idle and startup makes me think valve stem seals but these seals only have 4000 miles on them. they are from KMS, not oem.

i think its time to just man up and buy a new turbo (read lots of bad stories of rebuilt chra's)

thoughts?

MERRY XMAS

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Maybe a compression check? What do the plugs tell you?

I hate cars

Most importantly do you get any smoke during deceleration and when you first come out of fuel cut after decel? Does it burn oil at idle when you first start it on a cold engine or does it have to warm up a bit before it smokes?

Do the plugs show oil burning (let it idle for 5 minutes, shut off, and check the plugs). This will determine if its the turbo hot side or engine.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

only had time to pull the front 3 plugs (4,5,6). these plugs have 2000 miles on them

cylinder 4


cylinder 5


cylinder 6


i put some older plugs back in those 3 cylinders that were cleaned with a wire brush and had little to nothing showing on them. started the car after sitting overnight and idled for 5 minutes. pulled the plugs and they looked the same but there was some wet oil on the plug where the red arrows are



took some pics inside the cylinder. the top of each piston looks like it has oil on it.

cylinder 4




cylinder 5




cylinder 6




on a cold startup, it smokes a little bit then after 20-30 seconds it starts to smoke a good amount. smoke looks white to me. its about 30 degrees outside

this vid is after 30 seconds of startup. towards the end of this vid the smoke looks blueish but thats because of the led flashlight im using.

this vid is after about 4 minutes of idling

KN, ill do a compression and leak down test when i have a little more time

IHC, i really dont have a fuel cut under decel any more. the injectors are always flowing. however, under decel, i havent seen smoke in my mirror but its hard to tell when moving

I hate cars

Just got a sec, I've got to look at the pics from my computer instead of my phone. Looking at the pistons, are you still monitoring for knock? Those little pin holes, is that loose carbon or are those miniature craters? There are some troubling issues that may or may not be related to the current problem. More related to this thread it does look like oil additives on the center electrode especially if you're running Redline. Wet piston tops aren't the end of the world.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yes knock is monitored. ive only seen the knock light illuminate 3 or 4 times and that was under partial throttle in 2nd gear. i backed off each time.
your asking about those round specs on the dome right? it has to be carbon. pic quality is not that great but each spec looks raised rather then a hole. i run nothing but 93 and meth. a/f is also rich in the 10s under wot. i cant see this car detonating.

lets assume the valve seals are fine and no oil is coming from the heads. is it possible that a leaky turbo can cause wet piston tops?

i would rather first try and throw a new turbo on here before pulling the heads.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

The first 2 pics almost look like there are micro craters on the outside of the pistons. It's hard to tell though. It might be worth seeing if you can swab the tops of the pistons and see if they go away.

The last few look as if the cylinder walls have some vertical scarring on them. Are the piston skirts coated at all? If so, do you know if it was just a soft coating for break-in? I noticed the same thing with my old pistons (CP) so I had the new set (CP as well) coated with a dry film lubricant on the skirts and a gold ceramic on the domes. I also went .0005" larger (.004" total) with my piston to wall clearances.

I know that engine break-in is a highly debated subject and a simple search will bring up dozens of opinions... however, with the new pistons/rings, I'm going to give this method a shot. We'll see if it makes a difference.

I hate cars

Now that I'm back on the computer, the tiny specs of aluminum deposited on both the piston tops and plugs are a little concerning. I can only assume it was from the brief detonation bouts where you lifted and that the knock monitoring system is working fine. It looks as though the specs that were on the plugs before cleaning remained after the cleaning, reinforcing the fact that they're probably aluminum deposits. Something is giving up metal.

The "fluffy" deposits are likely oil, especially with all of the ZDDP and moly that Redline uses. Deposits will cause detonation. Oil itself will lower the effective octane. I know it goes against every tuner's advice but I would still get the iridiums out of there and go with a standard copper plug of the correct heat range.

It's not widely known but running too rich will cause it to detonate as well. 10s under boost is just wasting fuel and power. I went that direction way back in the day thinking that if a little rich is safe, really rich is even safer but that's not the case. I'm at a loss as to why there seem to be aluminum deposits but the car isn't detonating.

So it seems to smoke when vacuum is at it's highest. Sounds like valve seals or piston rings. The fact that you no longer have decel cut is a plus for testing. Have someone follow you, go under boost for a couple seconds and let off while at say 3,500rpm. See if the car smokes under decel. I've learned that the car has to be smoking like crazy to see it from the driver's seat while moving. I've had good luck in my car since the other cars can't keep up, having one car doing 60mph and you accelerate hard from a stop to say 70mph and let off right as you go by the other car.

What does the smoke smell like? Losing any coolant? It's not likely to be coolant as the bad cylinder usually looks exceptionally clean.

I'm assuming it still smokes even right after you empty the catch can?

It would be interesting to know why cylinder 5 looks completely normal for a turbo car with the exception of the aluminum deposits.

A check of the intecooler piping would be in order, preferably after the car has been driven for a day or two without boost and in a low spot in the plumbing.

Sorry I know this is all over the place, I have no time to post anymore.

I hate cars

One more thing, about the wet piston tops, it can be completely normal depending on where it was at when the engine was shut down. If the ignition was killed right on the intake or compression stroke you will have a wet piston top from fuel. Sometimes it doesn't dry out as quickly as you might think with the other deposits soaking it up.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

i see what you are referring too but i believe its just carbon. i took these pics after the car was driven for roughly 100 miles without going into boost once. when the rain lets up over here, im going to go for a real spirited drive to get those cylinders nice and hot, hopefully burning off most of whats in there. then ill take some pics again and try for better lighting.

normal oil operating temp while cruising is roughly 180 degrees F. i have noticed over the past 2 times i drove the car, cruising oil temp was 10-15 degrees cooler then normal for this time of year. not sure why but figured i throw it out there.

idk about coated skirts. order the pistons through rodney so i dont have all the details on that


are you talking about the tiny tiny what appears to be metal flake on the electrode and insulator tip? if so, thats not metal. its just ash. it comes off with a brush very easily. if it was metal wouldnt it be melted together and not come off? the "clean" plug and dirty plug are 2 different sets of plugs.


not losing any coolant. but the oil in the catch can was milky looking

yes

ill be pulling the pipes next but since the turbo is leaking, im sure there will be oil in the intercooler again.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

started the car after sitting for 3 days in 30 degree weather. started smoking after 30 seconds or so. took the car for a drive, warmed the oil to 170 and started boosting real hard for a while getting the oil very hot on the highway. goal was to try and burn off some of the oil and carbon in the cylinder.

i paid close attention to my mirrors looking for smoke but didnt see any. no smoke while cruising, while shifting or under decel from high to low rpms. (still need to get someone to drive behind me to make sure)...however, when i pulled over after quite a few hard pulls, the car was idling and there was no smoke. idled for a few minutes, things looked good so i drove off.

ran through the gears a few more times, no knocking, no misfires, pulls like a mofo...pulled into the driveway and let it idle to cool down. after maybe 4-5 minutes, it slowly started smoking again. shut the car down, pulled the number 4 plug for inspection. plug still had the ashy white color to it but was much lighter in color from last time.

took some pics of the number 4 cylinder that you guys said looked like craters on the outside of the piston. new pics show that those "craters" are gone and the outside portion of the piston is exceptionally clean imo...minus the burnt carbon deposits on the center of the piston.

pics also show some fresh oil on the piston as well.

btw, vacuum at idle is -21hg so i doubt its the rings. compression and leakdown test are next along with the piping.

checked the catch can and it had a clear liquid in it that smelled like gas. (i emptied the catch can the other day so what ever is in the can, is from this drive.) it does not smell like coolant. condensation mixed with fuel?? if that gas got into my catch can, i wonder how much my oil is getting fouled

i think that after the car has been sitting for a few days, the oil that im guessing is coming from the head (valve seals probably) is leaking down on to the piston tops. it takes about 30 seconds for the cylinder to get hot enough to start burning the oil off and then the smoke starts. after driving the car and getting it real hot, everything in the cylinder burns off then the smoke stops for a few minutes while idling....then the drip starts again and .
the smoke starts as well.

im still hoping this is turbo related but im starting to think thats not possible

one more thing, anyway this can be pcv system related?

.
.
.
.
pics

cyl 4. same cylinder that had those craters. it was definitely carbon. clean now























catch can

libert69

iTrader: (7)

IHC

Majofo

He's probably still recovering.

I hate cars

Lol. 235lbs and I'm deathly ill from 3 beers.

That condensate is probably a result of the 10:1 AF under boost. Lean her out to the mid 11s and most of it should go away. Watch knock of course. Being winter time doesn't help either.

You're running straight meth, right? Even without the water mixed in you will get some nasty acids from the meth. I wouldn't worry too much about the catch can just yet.

Plug deposits are likely the high levels of zinc and phosphorus and maybe even the high moly content of the Redline oil. It's not normal, I run a 50-50 mix of their 5w-30 and 5w-40 and my plugs have no deposits. The dots could be bad air filtration or the compressor wheel slowly shaving itself down against the compressor housing.

Are the deposits asymmetrical? Usually if they're coming through the induction system you have a larger buildup of deposits on the intake valve side of the plug. If its rings they tend to be more even.

Is there an area where you can suck oil through the intake manifold gasket at high vacuum (idle) that would hit all 6 cylinders?

You can pound the rings hard enough from detonation to cause flutter and get oil past them.

It would be good to see the other plugs and to rule out the intercooler plumbing.

If your system will allow it, run a 50-50 water meth mix and go under boost often run at least a gallon through it. This should clean the combustion chambers very well so we can get a better look at what's going on without the carbon getting in the way. Full throttle is not advisable with the mix.

Let me get my head back on straight and I'm sure there's a solution rather than just brainstorming and throwing a bunch of junk out there.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yes

Next oil change Ill go back to amsoil for a bit and monitor the plugs.

appears to be spread evenly over the plug

i dont think so. intake manifold and runners are clean


working on it. so damn cold out lol

im not "tuned" for meth. i could easily swap some water in there, lower the meth controller settings and blow through a gallon of water/meth in a few days worth of driving. but what are we trying to accomplish by doing so? burning the carbon off yea, but why?

but it seems that everytime i park the car, fresh oil is on the piston tops anyway

kingkong_dav

your engine is at the beginning of dying. gl

btw a used j32 go for 1500ish so don't jump off a cliff

libert69

iTrader: (7)

post of the year right there.

dont you have some precats to wrap...make sure to wrap the whole thing this time....lmao

kingkong_dav

I mean if it was a type s motor id prolly freak out but since it is a BASE it should be ok, affordable n not rare. a easy find.

but anyway your engine should not have a fresh film of oil on top of the piston after driving. so pistons rings are done! but your using redline oil. its prolly straight non detergent. genius.

didn't you promise a full heart transplant of the engine to handle such boost ? half ASSing it now?

I hate cars

He has a fully forged engine and other supporting mods making roughly 700hp at the crank.

Redline oil is an ester so detergents are not needed but it does contain detergents and it actually cleans better than any other oil.

Oil in the cylinders can come from several sources including the turbo, valve seals, PCV, etc. We're not completely sure it's oil, it can easily be fuel on the piston tops, that's why I suggested cleaning the pistons and then taking a look at them. He's also running methanol injection.

The car is monitored for knock, has the internals to stand up to the power, runs the best street oil money can buy, has meth injection for octane and to cool combustion temps and charge air temps. He's covered.

Bert, I have a few ideas but I need to know the condition of the intercooler plumbing. I don't blame you though, I'm trying to finish up my valve adjustment and it's taking me 2 whole days because it's too cold, I keep coming inside and gettting on the internet and it's only 28F here. I'm sure it's colder where you are.

I wanted to discuss cylinder wall deflection and cylinder walking under boost. You have the stock cylinders and liners, correct? It could explain excessive oil and "crap" in the catch can.

Also, I strongly urge you to get it out of the 10:1 AF ratio, it will take it's toll on the rings and cylinders. Mid 11s is as rich as you'll ever need it. You will notice a difference in power and quicker spoolup. I know you don't want to tune it for methanol (relying on meth) but 12:1 is easy and safe with the meth even at 16psi boost and it will actually be easier on the engine.

I hate cars

That AF ratio is still bothering me lol (and I'm finding another excuse to come in from the cold of my valve adjustment). 11.5 would be extremely safe and still rich but reasonable. 11.8 would be closer to ideal but every car is different. If your cylinders are missing the crosshatching, this would be the reason. If you ever go for broke like for example the rings end up being bad and you want to have the most powerful J32 in the country, throw some race gas in there along with the methanol and run a 13.5 AF ratio and you'll pick up a solid 50+hp on the dyno. I actually run my turbo car in the low 13s on race gas. Nothing wrong with it for short 1/4 mile runs as long as you have the octane to do so without detonation. I'm rambling now, trying to waste time.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

I had the same problem with my car and haven't fixed it yet but it smells like power steering fluid and oil is leaking out of the head, dripping on the front pre cat and white smoke about 10 seconds after start, but harsh. I am 99% sure its the valve seals..fix those and it should fix the problem.

I mean my plugs looked fine, but its the same "symptoms". front I am assuming?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

IHC dont feed the troll.

pulling the intercooler and piping on tuesday so ill report back.

yes, stock cylinders and liners. block was bored and honed and pistons are slightly oversized. .25 iirc

i hear ya about the a/f. i know the turner liked to keep the a/f on the rich side to keep cylinder temps down. however, i also know that he doesnt like using meth. the meth should be able to keep the temps under control better then a overly rich a/f. ill adjust my maps accordingly

libert69

iTrader: (7)

no visible leaks anywhere (besides the turbo chra) ive checked every thing so many times.

i too think its the valve seals but i still want to rule everything else out first.

havent pulled the rear plugs yet so im not sure if there is oil those cylinders just yet.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

pulled the intercooler and piping. NO oil in the pipes or the intercooler. Not even a slight film. Totally dry. I guess that rules out the turbo causing the wet pistons...

was adjusting the tune to lean her out a bit under wot but I just keep spinning the tires, even in 5th gear (tires suck and its 35 degrees outside). previously the a/f under wot was 10.8 and held rather steady at that number. adjusted the fuel, caught traction once and im closer to 11.2 throughout the powerband now. this is also with 400ml/min of meth

the fuel map needs to be totally rescalled instead of just adjusting a number of cells like i did. fuel map is setup so there is a wall of fuel at 250kpa to protect from overboost. this was fine when the car was only running 15psi. running 21-22 psi now and im basically spraying fuel based on those "wall of fuel" numbers when i hit peak boost.

I hate cars

That sucks about the source of the oil but spinning the tires in 5th kind of makes up for it.

Are you sure it's oil and not fuel and soot?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

im losing oil so thats why i figured it must be oil on the pistons. plus, the pics show a brownish color on top of the pistons. all that combined with the smoke at idle says oil to me.

ill get a long screwdriver or something to put down the spark plug tube into the cylinder and try to swipe the top of the piston to confirm

I hate cars

I was hoping to tie the deposits to too cold of a plug and an overly rich mixture and the smoke and oil loss being from the exhaust side of the turbo but that's probably wishful thinking at this point. How hard is the down pipe to remove?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

well I have noticed that the only 2 threads on the plug show wear so it may be too cold. ive read 4 threads is optimal.

completey remove the dp? pain in the ass....but to remove the band clamp and look down the pipe is much easier. might have to pull the turbo though