bTwix

What are the part #s of the check valves you're using?
1) crankcase vent: http://boombaracing.com/cv.html 12mm?

2) brake booster hose: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...3369&catid=489?

2) evap hose: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/ite...3369&catid=489?

bTwix

Here's the before picture:


So you basically use the stock location from manifold via boombaracing check valve to the catch can? Did you drill out the stock location similar to this S2000:

libert69

iTrader: (7)

10mm (3/8) crankcase

3/8 checkvalve for both evap and brake booster

i left the stock pcv valve in place. I would like to remove the pcv valve itself but I havent figured out how to plug the hole yet

bTwix

Would a block off plate similar to this do the trick?
http://www.namotorsports.net/detail....d/BHBSH20TPCV1
http://www.namotorsports.net/docs/BHBSH20TPCV1.pdf

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yes a block off plate would work but I havent found anything that will fit and make a seal.

I tried to hollow out the stock pcv valve but I wound up destroying it. At 15$ each, Ill just have to buy a few and try again.

bTwix

Maybe something XLR8 or others could fab? Seems like something the turbo crowd would want.

With the boombaracing checkvalve to catch can in place for crankcase vent, what's the downside to just leaving the existing PCV valve in place vs. deleting it? Do we expect it to fail, or actuate in addition to the boobaracing check valve?

Here's a PCV delete thread on the honda tech forum:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3026220 (esp. see posts #9-17)

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im sure something can be made. I havent spent much time looking though.

The stock pcv will fail. Mine did twice. If it fails and gets stuck closed (or open, depending how you look at it), i believe the crankcase wont be able to vent under vacuum....but Im not sure on that.

bTwix

So issue with stock pcv is too much boost pressure would eventually break it, but you want to retain vacuum when not under boost to clear crankcase gasses, so why not add a check valve between intake manifold and stock pcv to prevent boost but allow vacuum?

Could you use the same check valves as the evap and brake booster?
http://www.usplastic.com/mobile/item...3369&catid=489

I hate cars

The answers are a few pages back.

bTwix

Ah, so the boomba check valve IS on the line from crankcase pcv to intake manifold. I thought stock pcv had a separate line, but liberts setup is: crankcase -> stock pcv valve -> tube -> oil separator (not vented catch can so vacuum is maintained) -> tube -> boomba racing check valve -> tube -> intake manifold, correct?

So in this setup the boomba check valve prevents the stock pcv from seeing boost, and the stock pcv will only see vacuum. The boomba check valve and oil separator essentially make the the stock pcv redundant, but if boomba check valve prevents stock pcv from seeing boost, why would stock pcv fail?

Seems like it would be nice to delete the stock pcv (since its entire function has been replaced by the boomba check valve and oil separator) but what harm would it cause leaving it in there, if only used to vacuum out crankcase gases? If it failed closed, you'd get degraded oil life? If so, could we just replace stock pcv as a regular maintenance item?

Sounds like the part we'd want is a pcv assembly that is simply an open pipe, or a cover plate, which would have the same effect.

Since existing pcv is held on by a single screw, can we just cut it off after the 1st o ring, to delete it?
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,ca...,parttype,5052

bTwix

Build is almost done, need to get check valves and oil separator now though, and possibly stock pcv delete.

bTwix

Interesting vid of oil separator in action:
http://www.lsxtv.com/news/video-moro...tor-in-action/

bTwix

Is this the oil separator you got?
http://store.excelerateperformance.c...r/g-62960.aspx

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

libert69's can is a custom build by one of Rodney's guys.

I picked up one similar to his that is a little bigger and also baffled. Very much like this but a little less expensive.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Series-O...e41c1d&vxp=mtr

I chose one with fittings on the bottom along with the top so if I find it filling up too fast, I may connect is to the turbo drain so it goes right back into the pan.

I hate cars

Since the stock PCV is a metering device snd a high flow check theres no reason to have them in series. You can always gut the stock valve so it becomes just a fitting. Or cut it or whatever works. You can get some unwanted effects from two check valves in series.

The important part is that you're not pressurizing the crankcase which will lead to the problems that Bert was experiencing like oil leaks, turbo not draining correctly, oil in the intercooler. Everything else is minor. The main downside of getting rid of the positive scavenging is you will have to change the oil more often but if you're running meth injection you should already be using a 3,000 mile OCI.

bTwix

Bert has the vented catch can you mention (custom fab by Rodney), plus oil separator/catch can (looks like a moroso oil separator) for pcv vacuum tube to manifold, which can't be vented if you want to maintain vacuum for crank case ventilation.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I am looking at connecting the front and back crank case vents to an oil / air separator with it attached to the front IM vacuum port. I am hoping the IM will provide enough Vaccuum to evacuate any blow by I am getting. My filter is attached straight to the turbo and I don't want any oil going thru it so the IM will be my only source of vacuum.
Here is a pic of the separator I was looking at from Jegs and at $50, it's cheaper that other options I have looked at.


I am also picking up boost from the top of the IM near the throttle and noticed Bert is using a port on the rear of the IM. Am I using the wrong location to pick up boost from? I will be doing my check valves soon and am wondering if I should pick up boost from Berts location so I can put a check valve on that port.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

My bad. Totally missed those posts.

I hate cars

I think it's a good idea to clarify that pre-turbo is a source of filtered air but it is not a source of vacuum. Post turbo has pressure but no vacuum. And obviously post throttlebody is both vacuum and boost.

bTwix

Judging by the look of the PCV oil separator it's Moroso 85496:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-85496/
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/catego...?catcode=18549 (scroll all the way to the bottom)

libert69

iTrader: (7)

ummm, thats exactly what i did lol

yes. you dont need a 30$ check valve from boomba. the us plastic ones will work fine. I was just going for looks.

the stock pcv valve wont fail with the additional check valve in place. it failed on me prior to adding the checkvalve. the stock pcv valve was never intended to see 18lbs of boost.

I ultimately wanted to delete the stock pcv valve and tube because I already have a vented/baffled catch can coming off both valve covers. However, when I pulled the stock tube and capped the manifold and valve cover, the car would stall while idling. I have a feeling that if i can delete the pcv valve itself, and put some kind of block off plate on the opening, then I will be able to cap off the valve cover and the car wont stall. I think it was stalling b/c the valve was forced shut due to lack of vacuum from the IM pulling it open.

If I can delete the pcv valve then I wont need the additional oil separator on there.

I tried that and wound up destroying it. Its hard to explain but once you really look at the valve, youll see that cutting it probably wont work. I even tried to push the spring out and it didnt work.

If you want to connect both valve covers to the catch can AND run it back to the IM, it will need to have 3 ports. OR you can connect the front and rear cover with a Y connector and you can use the can that you listed.

What do you mean "picking up boost?" Are you talking about the vacuum lines? If im reading what you wrote correctly, your saying that you are using the nipple that is on top of the manifold right after the inlet for your vacuum lines? If so, then where is your evap line connected too? You should be using the nipple on the rear of the manifold that was intended for the oem motor mounts vacuum lines.

theres plenty of catch cans out there. originality is what makes everyones car different.

bTwix

Just to confirm my understanding, we need breather tubes from the valve covers to the vented catch can:
- when IM has vacuum: so PCV can suck in clean air through crankcase => increased oil life
- when IM has boost: to relieve any crankcase pressure since boomba value may be forced shut by boost in IM => prevent oil going places it's not supposed to and keep your rings happy

At idle, we'd expect the IM to be sucking air from the vented catch can -> crankcase -> PCV -> IM (vacuum). However, since PCV is only on the front bank only, will only the front bank have gases scavenged? Or does the rear bank deposit blowby into the vented catch can, which then is sucked through the front bank, and into PCV -> IM, and then burned up? It doesn't seem like you'd have clean air flowing over the rear bank unless the opposite end of the rear valve cover had a PCV -> IM as well.

bTwix

For something more permanent, maybe remove the valve cover and use some JB Weld putty to plug up the hole? Spare valve covers are $113 if you ever need to go back.

WBA-01

iTrader: (2)

If you want to fully delete the factory PVC system, check out a front valve cover from the 2000-2003 Tl's. It has the same bolt holes and tubes but no PCV. I know they fit, as i have done the swap myself (only inverted). I used an 04 rear valve cover to delete the PVC on my SC setup. And an extra bonus to removing the PVC it added a breather port on both valve covers (on the trany side). I was actually curious about your vented catch can, as it is what i need for mine as well.

I hate cars

IMO, this is how it should go one of two ways on pretty much any car.

1)A breather on each valve cover. No true PCV (POSITIVE crankcase ventilation) which implies scavenging via vacuum in the IM. This provides a vent at all times for blowby. Nothing hooked to the air ducting including the IM, nothing to go wrong. The downside is you don't get a whole lot of fresh air in. I personally run this setup on my turbo car. I actually run an enclosed breather on one side, with an opening for a 3/4" hose that runs underneath the car in the hope that the low pressure area under the car will help to pull vapors from the open breather on the other side of the engine.

2)Fresh air taken pre-turbo delivered to the valve cover just like stock. Stock PCV routing from the other valve cover through a separator (optional) with no breather, a big aftermarket check valve, to the IM. The fresh air opening pre-turbo will give pressure (blowby) a place to go when under boost since the PCV valve shuts completely down and flow ceases through the valve when the IM goes under pressure. Basically it will backflow but only under boost. This is acceptable because the amount of oil vapors going through the intake tract will be minimal, only when under boost. I like this setup better but I chose the super reliable, simple way.

bTwix

The 2003 front valve cover has no PCV but also no dipstick:
http://www.oemacuraparts.com/parts-c...der-head-cover

bTwix

For #2, you suggest stock routing of breather tube from rear valve cover and stock routing of PCV from front valve cover, which is consistent with http://www.oemacuraparts.com/parts-c.../breather-tube and http://www.oemacuraparts.com/parts-c...head-cover--06. However, I don't see any tube that connects the front cover to the rear cover directly, so when IM sees boost and boomba checkvalue shut, how would blowby from the front cover escape to protect the rings?

For #1, do you connect your draft tube to both front and rear valve covers, or just a single cover (front or rear)?

WBA-01

iTrader: (2)

So maybe that's not an option then, my car has the external dip stick setup, so i didn't even notice the lack of a hole. Plus i was more worried about the back cover on mine.

I hate cars

The front and rear banks are connected by a common crank case. The factory typically has fresh air enter one valve cover, down through the head, through the block picking up vapors and bad stuff, back up the other head through the PCV valve and into the IM to be burned. It creates a crossflow, pushing vapors out and bringing fresh air in to reduce varnish and sludge and extend oil changes. The bottom of the cylinders where any blowby would come from are centered only inches from each other so vapors can exit out of either valve cover, it's all the same. With only a breather on each valvecover and without the crossflow through the crank case you still vent any pressure but you no longer have fresh air entering the crank case and acids and "crap" build up which is why I say to shorten the OCI.

So in #2, fresh air enters one valve cover and exits the other and into the IM during normal operation. When you go under boost, the crossflow momentarily stops and all venting is done through the fresh air side and goes through the turbo and intake tract which is fine.

In #1 it vents the same whether under vacuum or boost but you get no fresh air.

bTwix

With the front and rear banks connected, is there any benefit to running two breather tubes, one off each bank (like libert's setup, and probably the way mine is being setup now) if you're going to retain the pcv?

I hate cars

If you have the PCV and a breather on the same valve cover its just going to pull fresh air from the breather and send it to the IM. If you have only one breather and its opposite the PCV valve its forced to pull fresh air through the engine. The stock routing is perfectly fine with a turbo. The fresh air will come pre turbo or via a breather. The PCV valve gets upgraded, you can add a non vented catch can between the IM and PCV valve, and you have a functional PCV system.

HQTL6SPD

^IHC your inbox is full, i'd like to pm you about something

bTwix

OK, it looks like Libert's setup (and mine) were designed for a full PCV delete since both banks are routed to a vented catch can and then to pre-turbo intake.



If I want to retain the PCV function, I should be running the stock tube (or larger tube) from the rear valve cover to the pre-turbo intake (with no vented catch can in between - maybe oil separator?), and that will be sufficient to relieve blowby crankcase pressure while under boost, when the upgraded PCV boomba value is shut?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That's what I think he's saying.

Is there an advantage to running the rear fresh air supply pre-turbo vs just having a filter on the fitting getting fresh air from under the hood?

I've got a vented can on the bench right now but if a non-vented can in the PCV loop works with the upgraded valve, I would rather go that way. I am running out of room to add stuff under the hood.

I hate cars

A separator should always be on the vacuum side, never the fresh air side unless you're worried about the few seconds you're under boost putting vapors through the intake tract when it backflows.

The main advantage of getting fresh air preturbo is if you have a lot of blowby. The breather filter can become saturated with oil. I've had that happen and the oil would drip on the headers and create small fires. As long as the engine is healthy there are no problems. Not that it's necessary but the preturbo will have a very slight vacuum under boost to help a little. Not really enough to matter and if it is your preturbo intake tract is too restrictive.

bTwix

I'll ping Rodney and see about retaining the factory PCV routing, with fresh air directly from pre-turbo with no catch can, and then delete factory PCV value (cover plate or JB Weld), and adding an oil separator and boomba check valve on the manifold side to retain the PCV function.

Improved OCI, emissions, and this video series on blowby/PCV http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=3JYut_eyw-k, all make a good argument for retaining the PCV function.

Sounds like entirely deleting the PCV system would make the car run more rich (less air drawn into IM), and an open pipe (no stock PCV valve/spring metering airflow) would make the car run more lean (more air flow), so sounds like the final PCV setup should be in place prior to the tune.

bTwix

If you're going to watch the PCV/blowby videos, I'd start with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=rs6YtHUscCA

bTwix

One additional idea on retaining factory PCV flow through the engine when not under boost, while retaining both front and rear valve cover breather tubes that libert and I already have in place, is to put an additional boomba check valve on the front valve cover vent tube so it's not used as a fresh air source, but could be used to relieve excessive crankcase pressure while under boost.

Also, having the front and rear valve covers vent to a vented catch can (liberts and my current setup) would only vent to atmosphere under major boost, in which case we're definitely not standing still so less of an issue.

Adding the 2nd boomba check valve seems like the best of both worlds, since it would retain factory PCV air flow from rear valve cover through entire crankcase, and then out the front valve cover to IM and then burned off, while providing an extra measure of protection for venting the crankcase while under boost.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

So if I have a vented catch can on the fresh air side, I really don't need to plumb it pre-turbo/air filter? Is there any advantage having both covers open to fresh air with the check valve as btwix describes?

EDIT: Just checked my little filter, it's got oil on it so I see what you mean. Not enough to be dripping but if I put my hand on it I get some oil.....

bTwix

Here's a picture.

If retaining factory PCV air flow, there are three options for fresh air side:
a) keep setup in pic below, but add a check valve to front tube, so no fresh air in, but allow pressure out.
b) eliminate front vent tube entirely, so fresh air only enters rear cover, but keep the vented catch can
c) eliminate everything except single tube from rear cover to pre-turbo intake, which is the factory setup