gerzand

iTrader: (3)

YGPM response!

Re: crazy idle

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Quote:
Originally Posted by libert69
did you ever figure out the sticky throttle ?? starting the car, idle starts at 1000-1100 and will stay there as long as i dont touch the gas. as soon as the gas is pressed, the idle will now stay at 1500-1700. it wont go back to 1000 until i restart the car.

any ideas?


Sure did. It all comes down to spark, fuel, and map scaling interval percentages. Was a bitch to fix, but I tweaked it pretty darn good.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

Bert toldja....

Andy is a genius

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

Bert, call me this evening between 4:30 and 6:30 Eastern and ill go thru it with ya step by step 330-532-8896

Esanchez8701

guys I have been reading your posts and i love this thread. Now i am highly considering turboing my 2008 base TL. I dont want to get crazy high boost but a little bit. What parts do you think i need to get, i know i need a turbo manifold and a bolt on down pipe. of course the turbo kit and intercooler as well. What you guys think ? thanks for educating me here guys.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

If you want to go turbo you need to buy the whole kit. I would go with what works verses trying to fab the kit yourself.

I hate cars

Congrats on getting this fixed! Do you know what caused it, were there any changes made or did it just pop up one day?

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

It took alot of effort. I went through multiple throttle bodies, ecu's, and tuning methods. At the end of the day its all about tuning methods and there was a definite lack of thought put into these base tunes. Im completely sure that anyone with a MS3 and J&R's tunes (even if "tuned".....and regardless if turbo or N/A) are going to have this issue at some point....and if you dont, its a miracle.

I tried giving Rodney a heads up, but he never contacted me back....so i'll help people instead.

I hate cars

That's great info. Looks like you're already a valuable asset and even moreso in the future. That's too bad about J&R but at least you're here to pick up the slack.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

@gerzand

Have you thought about either offering a service to update people's maps, or to setup your own base map and post it (maybe even for a fee)? I for one would be glad to throw a little money your way for it. I'm sure about a dozen other people would be happy to do so as well.

gerzand

iTrader: (3)

Ive gotten a few folks interested so far. The tuning technique used requires some drivability tuning to perfect and/or some datalogs at the very least.

If you are going to end up sending me datalogs, I'll have a set of scenarios for you to perform on the road while datalogging prior to this.

Anyone who wants to contact me can call 330-532-8896. Please leave a voicemail if I dont answer and ill get back to you ASAP. I want to speak to each of you on the phone before conquering your cases.

One more thought....I dont respond to texts or lengthly PM's because there are way to many things to discuss, and I end up getting into hour long texting sessions.

Give me a call and we can discuss your case.

Andy

libert69

iTrader: (7)

after speaking to gerzand, he gave me some info on how to adjust the fuel table to hopefully help the idle problem. ive been smoothing out the valves even more so then before and it hasnt helped much. car idles with a a/f in the high 13's and a cruising a/f in the high 14's low 15's. im still getting 28-30mpg on the highway.

what seemed to help a little was bumping the idle timing to 18-20 degrees.

but for the time being (not the greatest idea) i put a small hose clamp around the pcv tube and tightened it. the tube is pinched slightly closed to limit airflow and i can bring the idle down as low as i want.

the "happy point" seems be with a idle around 1250. if i bring it down any further, the next time the car is started it will stall a few seconds after starting. at 1250 there is no stalling.

ultimately id like to remove that pcv tube but the car will keep stalling if its capped off. i dont want the pcv spitting anything back into the IM.

im going to put back that small oil separator in the pcv tubing location.

relocated the iat sensor to the front bumper as well
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regarding the turbo leak from the center housing bolts. even though precision said you can torque those bolts down very hard, they are still going into the back of the compressor which is aluminum. I only went hand tight but they never got very snug. pulled 2 of the bolts out and they had some aluminum in the threads from the compressor. ill be sending it back to precision in the near future.

i pulled off the oil feed line going into the turbo and noticed that oil was filled almost all the way to the top when i looked into the hole. after a few minutes with the line off, the oil level went down a slight bit. shouldnt it be empty? i know my drain line is clear b/c i just pulled it and checked.

im wondering if the oil in the pan is sitting above the drain flange.?..i know there is no more then 4.5 - 5 quarts in there. the drain flange sits almost touching the top edge of the pan

libert69

iTrader: (7)

for overboost protection and rev limiter, do we want to cut fuel or spark or both?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

ever since i swapped over that polished throttle body (had to re-install the internal idle screws) ive been having these idle issues.

now im getting another cel for throttle actuator stuck open...or something like that. if i have this code, once the car is started the rpms surge to 2600-3000 and wont move even if you tap the gas.

im thinking (hoping) all these problems are from this throttle body. hope to find a cheap one on the BM

I hate cars

For overboost/rev limit, if you cut only spark, your exhaust system fills with a fine mist of unburned fuel. Just the injectors and it's possible but not likely you'll get a 1 cycle lean condition. Both are ideal. The pop when the ignition comes back after having fuel dumped through the exhaust has been known to unravel mufflers and destroy turbos.

The compressor housing can be removed relatively easy and helicoiled. I recommend this, those bolts strip pretty easy.

I've never seen a turbo inlet full of oil before. The bearings are pressure fed and it can take a small amount of time for the oil to seep out, I've never seen it full by the time I was able to remove the inlet.

I don't know if the TL's ECU actually senses throttle position to set the code for a stuck throttle or if it's using logic, assuming that the throttle is stuck because of an external air leak that won't allow idle to go down once it's supposed to be closed.

To find out, separate the PCV system from the intake tract in every way. Make sure there's at least one hose to atmosphere so the crank case doesn't pressure up. See if the idle goes back to normal after a quick 1-2 minute learning session.

The only PCV going to the engine after the throttle body should be the small hose off of the PCV valve. Anything else will cause a high idle.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yea the housing comes off very easily but how do you get the back part off? does the compressor blade need to be taken off? doesnt that require taking out the shaft? if so, i might as well send it in since it has to be re-balanced right? when i sent the housing out for polishing, i took the 4 bolts out of the center housing that bolt into the backing plate on the compressor housing and the plate just spins but wont come off.



i was getting fed up with the leaking so i pulled the oil feed to put that restrictor back on. at this point it cant hurt to try it (i was running one for the first 20,000 miles on this turbo with no leaks...new motor goes in, restrictor comes off, and we start leaking)...anyway, oil is backing out through 2 of the 4 bolts because they are stripped.

im really starting to think that this is throttle body related. i have a feeling the butterfly is not in the correct position after i put it back together. unfortunately there is nothing in the service manual as far as measurements go.

anyone have some info on the correct position for the butterfly? i have it clocked very slightly but not fully shut.
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when i put the oil separator on the stock pcv location, i was thinking of putting an additional check valve in the hose after the separator going to the manifold. i dont believe the stock pcv valve is up to the task of 18psi. i tried to do the pcv valve test thats listed in the service manual and i dont think its working.

hondamaint

Just wondering , and no I did not read all of the thread ( way long) has anyone had issues with 3rd and 4th in the 6 speed manual?
We have been running a turbo J35 with 532whp since 07 and this has been our biggest issue . M-factory is currently making us ( had to buy a min. of 10 sets) forged / straight cut gears for 3rd and 4th . 4th is always the first to go we have tried treating the stock gear but had no luck with it.
Also has anyone found a good limited slip for the 07 and up TL 6 speed?

Paul Street
Honda Manufacturing of Alabama

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Bmeyer nuked 4th.

Where are the other 9 sets going? How much?

There really nothing out there for upgrades for this transmission.

hondamaint

We may have a set or two left over. We have "nuked" 4 or 5-4th gears and 2-
3rd gears.
We hope this will solve the issue. We sent them all the cad drawings and a stock set or 3rd and 4th gears. they got everything last week.
We looked at the Xtrac sequential but that is a little more than we want to spend now, but if this does not work that is the net step.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Definitely let me know if you have a set left over. I'd be happy to take them off your hands.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

keep me in mind too. I may be interested.

Majofo

04accordsce has demolished 3rd and 4th - 4 or 5 times.. he's probably on other boards. I think he might have finally found a solution to his issues.

flexer

Hopefully he will chime in then. If not, and anyone hears what 04accordssce has done to correct the problem, than post it here please.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Last I saw, he pulled (and sold) his S/C. FWIW, he was pushing significantly less power than most of the turbo guys. Even if he did find something to hold in his car, I really doubt it would hold in a car putting down nearly 600 ft./lbs. torque.

Majofo

his last post here.

Majofo

not sure on the spec on honda gear oil.. or if it comes in different flavors.

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

I am very iinterested in a set of these if you have them left over or if you can add a set to your current order (send me a PM on pricing if available). If not it looks like there may be some interest with some other members on the forum. Could you tell us the price per 10 sets? So we could start a group buy.

Thanks

spade0698

I'm interested in the gears also. Come-on lets do a group buy....I would love to get them before my car gets put back together...

hondamaint

Patrick at M-factory has the stock gears and the drawings. The process should take 1.5 to 2 months for the first set. The 10 sets will cost us a little over $7,000 for 3rd and 4th straight cut forged gears.
All of our failures have been under constant load while running through the rev range. We at first thought it was driveline shock but then we got a Gopro so we could watch and then we saw the failure mode.
Just too much power for a stock TL transmission.

bTwix

I'd be interested in a set as well.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

after many hours of playing with this idle issue, i got it figured out. after speaking with gerzand about smoothing out the timing and fuel tables, i adjusted these tables many different ways and had no luck.

i kept thinking about that damn oem pcv valve and tube. i always figured the stock pcv valve was not up to task of holding 18psi from entering the crankcase. however, since i already had -10an fittings welded to the opposite side of each valve cover and connected to a separate vented catch can, i thought that was enough to prevent boost from pressuring the crankcase.

at this point i simply removed the stock pcv tube, capped off the manifold with a rubber nipple and let the front valve cover vent to atmosphere from stock pcv location (while leaving the vented catch can connected to the opposite side)

idle was back to 850rpm, was not hunting and did not stall. looks like the problem was solved. even though this looked like a solution, I believe I found a better route.

i thought about running a oil separator from the stock pcv location but knew the pcv valve wouldnt hold back the boost from entering the crank case. boombaracing makes a nice aluminum check valve that can hold 100psi but will crack open with as little as .25psi allowing the manifold to breath

with this check valve in place, it also solved my oil drain issue from the turbo. prior to the check valve, it believe the pressure getting into the crankcase was causing a flow problem. pulling the feed line from the turbo and there was literally oil filled inside the turbo. after enough time, the pressure would bleed off and the turbo would drain.

so i give you my solution to a high idle. that black tube in the hose coming from the manifold is the check valve

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

damn that looks sooo SICK and is functional as well....

bTwix

Nice work.

I hate cars

I hate to say I told you so lol. Glad you got all of the issues worked out.

spade0698

[QUOTE=hondamaint;13956082]We may have a set or two left over. We have "nuked" 4 or 5-4th gears and 2-
3rd gears.
We hope this will solve the issue. We sent them all the cad drawings and a stock set or 3rd and 4th gears. they got everything last week.
We looked at the Xtrac sequential but that is a little more than we want to spend now, but if this does not work that is the net step.[/

Hondamaint,

Is it possible to increase the numbers to your current order. I have cash on hand and I might be interested in getting the sequential....

I hate cars

[quote=spade0698;13977123]I'm guessing you're planning to do an auto to manual conversion?

komet

I'm sorry if I'm derailing this thread any further, but after seeing 04accordcpe's last post (posted by Majofo), I have a question... What fluid were you guys running in those transmissions when they failed? It's pretty interesting (or lucky coincidence) that 04accordcpe's 5th transmission seemed to be doing so well with Honda MT fluid.

Regardless, thank you for posting that information hondamaint. It's nearly impossible to find data or personal experiences like that with any of Honda transmissions, let alone the TL's. It's too bad you guys couldn't put an Xtrac box in the TL. Afterall, they are the same company that provides Pagani with the Zonda R's transmission

EDIT: Libert, that's good to hear you figured out your idle problem. I would of tore my hair out trying to find an intermittent problem like that haha!

I hate cars

One thing I've never seen answered is if the GM friction modified fluid actually has more or less FM than the Honda fluid. If it has less FM, making the synchros work better which I believe it does, I can see how the additional FM of the Honda fluid might make the difference in a high hp application.

The gears are obviously being stressed well beyond what they were designed for. A slight reduction in friction in a gear set that's living on the edge might be the difference between breaking and not breaking.

That of course would leave the door open to better fluids with a better base oil and better add pack with EP additives that will reduce friction under the worst circumstances yet still let the synchros do their job.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

i had to scroll back up and find where you mentioned disconnecting the pcv setup...whoops...missed it

redline mtl for me

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm trying Redline lightweight shockproof myself this time.

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

[quote=spade0698;13977123]
I asked this same question, as I would rather just add more quantity to their current order than making a new group buy thread.

Hondamaint, If you can still add quantity please let me know as I can pay immediate.

Thanks