I hate cars

Me too. It should be very cheap if it's just a bolt in. Unfortunately the trans has to come out to do it. I will definately do it once the trans has to be rebuilt, especially with the large front swaybar.

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

Rodney the meet is this sunday. i need to film a 150mph + run from inside the car on I-75. it will make this thread more interesting.

wait. dam I-75 is full of state troopers. i'll find a spot. turnpike perhaps

I hate cars

0-100 may be a bit more reasonable. This way you can compare it to many other cars to see where it stands as this was a pretty common test.

The last thing you want to do is push this car to 150mph on the stock pistons with 500hp at the crank. You have to remember the limitations of the stock bottom end and in this case it's the pistons with the top ring land very close to the top of the piston. This means it doesn't dissipate heat well so extended top end runs are very risky.

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

^good point........... then again im not surprised you have another good point........ try not to get again lol

the last thing i want to do is tow another tl all the way to coral springs with my daredevil 2g tranny

ok 0-100 it is

race4ed

0-100 sounds better, Take vids and pics

Opel

no no no.... he should try running at fairly high speeds with prolonged boost.... i wanna see 1st through 5th.... i want that motor to work against the friction of the air... and only once doesnt count either...and also, fill up the car with 4 ppl, and do a few pulls... u gotta load that motor!!! and get rid of those stock tires also... those i could spin by cranking the car in 1st.... do this through midday heat also. do this up the hill....

after a few runs....pop the oil cap and let me know if ya see smoke come through!

u wanna test reliability? thats how you do it...u push it till it brakes...u push it beyond the average driver would. but of course...be safe! and when it brakes...u come down a few notches. and that would be the "reliable setting"

now ya know why i blew 2-J32s.....with half the boost.

ive said this many times....some ppl may have cracked pistons, and they dont even know.... it wont always misfire..and most times it will hold most of the compression, so some wouldn't even notice!

and the rest just dont drive hard enough... creeping through a gear to hear the "famous whine" once in a while, aint pushing the car!!!!!

Its Turbo Time

I feel a TL funeral approaching...

I hate cars

That would likely push it to the point of breakage but I would like to see more 0-100mph runs and beating it up on the way to work every day first for durability testing like most of us would do. After he's satisfied that it's going to hold up to 90% of the drivers, then push it and break it. No point in breaking it right away. There are some things you just can't get around and the pistons are one of those things. We know that with enough extended runs something will happen. No spray a large shot of meth to cool charge and combustion temps and who knows, it might have a fighting chance.

phee

iTrader: (5)

i know this is a bit OT but i figured some of you gurus would be able to help me here.

as some of you know i have a swapped 2nd gen tl.

i want to measure my A/F but tuners around town want big $$ for that.

is there a computer that i can hook up to my ecu that will tell me if im running lean/rich/stoich ??

pass427

I actually have an in car video of 155mph was racing a supposedly 500hp civic u here him beside me then no more , I know he has piston rods upgraded sleeves and all not sure if his car wasn't running good or what or probably I just got lucky + I know how to shift it well when I choose to I'll probably post it up I'll give it a thought , if I decide I'll post it up later..
Opel trust me pushing this car with load is been done regularly til even the help we've been getting sometimes get mad at me & yes I've done 155 with 4 people in car not at daytime of course...

pass427

Opel motors don't just blow like that motors usually blows without a good tune can't throw boost on and think it's all fine plus stock fuel pump & injectors won't help either + timing is very important , and make sure u get all those bubbles out the cooling system to prevent any air pockets which will spell trouble too,.

Inaccurate

Agree. IMO, Daily driving is the ulitmate endurance test. I have always had much more respect for a fast DD than a faster Weekend Warrior.

Opel

Lol don't base it on my experience running boost with stock fuel pump and injectors... They were fine up to a point untill I leaned out the system..and that's not why mine blew twice...as far as timing...stock ecu pulls timing...tl runs a knock sensor... Simply exessive high intake temps such as during the summer days, the ecu will pull timing...I don't disagree on upgrading fuel system.. But at the same time, I didn't run the car lean either... I've posted this more than I care to...and here it is again...intake air temps with SC are same as engine bay (about 160-170 degrees) the thing just sits there like a pretty heating element...u need to run at a long period of time at highway speeds at WOP to even get enough air flow to start cooling down..and it won't even happen in boost...so image driving around town at minimal throttle opening with very little air flowing through... U might as well point a torch in front of the IM inlet...that's the problem, HEAT HEAT HEAT... Tune it all you want...u gotta get rid of the heat... On the dyno, its a whole diff story..with all the fans blowing at engine bay and hood open..I could put my face on top of IM...but not the same case on the street.

Its true some motors don't just blow like that and some of the same will while another won't.....but were not talking about motors..were talking about TL pistons...its the last honda motor they even thought or prepped for any boost handling.

Even now with forged pistons..I won't even pin the car right off the bat..ill let methanol do its job at low boost for a few seconds...before I go full throttle.

Ur turbo isn't nearly as harsher as the SC.... I wish u the best of luck, hope it will never give out

I hate cars

I've popped mine from a plugged methanol nozzle mid run. It blew the headgasket so bad I could see it sticking out from the side of the engine. It had a dead miss but if you revved it, it would pop like a gun shot and shoot a blue flame out the side of the engine. I've also broken a forged TRW piston from an accidental boost spike. I've also cracked a cylinder when a friend floored my car after telling him not to get on the gas while it was set to 29psi with the methanol pump out of the car being serviced.

These things will let go immediately in some cases and you'll likely end up with a rod through the block. If you're lucky you lose compression over time and catch it before the piston comes completely apart.

I've always been opimistic about what the stock bottom end will handle with a good tune and no detonation. In fact I predicted a long time ago it would handle 450hp no problem. But you can't get around the inherent problems in the stock pistons. The top ring is just too close to the top of the piston and it will eventually give with extended runs. It's a safe assumption that ring gap is not wide enough for the prolonged heat of forced induction and they will eventually butt together. Meth/water injection should help greatly in this case. I typically recommend straight meth for the most power but water cools the combustion temps more so a mix may be in order if you plan on doing top end runs or road racing.

Opel

U can buy an AFR gauge (narrow band) and hook it up to ur O2 sensor.. That will tell u if ur rich, lean or stoich... But it will not give an accurate reading in actual numbers, (such as 12.3/1)

If u want numbers, u gotta get a wideband gauge along with the wide band O2 sensor..lp2 I think its called or smth like that... Those run from like $220 and up

U might ask why not just get the gauge since our cars have a wide band... And the reason is, those gauges are calibrated to work with their own sensor.

I hate cars

You just answered a question I was about to ask lol.

I can't wait until these ecms get cracked. I remember the old days in my car when all that was available was a chip with a set injector DC and timing.

Now I just went back to a stock ECM after years of a standalone for better drivability. My new software allows me to plug into the stock ecm and with an additional wideband in place of the stock 02, I can command what AFR I want and the freaking stock computer hits it dead on everytime. It's amazing how far these things have come. One day I hope the TL is there.

Opel

Pass...

I also forgot to mention that faulty spark plug can cause motor failure...especially when boosted... Pre-ignition is the devil in this case.

I had 2 cases of broken electrode insulator.. 3 plugs each time... Those were the denso (IK22) plugs, supplied with the SC... And guess what? Where those plugs broke, is where I found cracked pistons..

Only HEAT!

Good job Comptech!

Opel

Lmaoo. It saves me time

I hate cars

Or was it the detonation that broke the plugs??? It's the chicken or the egg scenario.

pass427

Hey Opel I agree totally heat heat heat , but u got to know more power more pressure enduces heat better terms heat soak ,which if not watch carefully can turn into headgasket failure or worst ,as far as motor is concern I know sooner or later it's gonna give like you guys said stock pistons isn't ready for the type of abuse we want to put on it , but for now let's see what happens .. Hope it holds up for my sake ...but still that's a wonderful # I've pull with the s/c thou , can't wait til u get it back on the dyno ...Opel have u tried using heat sheild of any sort ? It will definetly help ...

pass427

And like mentioned b4 the kit will be released some where around 360-380 whp , so that way everyone will be safe and satisfied , but we all know we have a lot of people who will want to go higher which we know for now I'm at 437 so let's see where 15psi will take us..

I hate cars

I think the pistons will hold up for a long time as long as it doesn't run into detonation and you don't do extended WOT runs.

Opel

Fair enough question, but the NGK plugs didn't break lol.

I think it was the chicken...god wouldve looked funny sitting on top of the egg.

Opel

TL has multi layer steel head gaskets.. Not the old traditional cardboard...only way they'll leak is if u overheat and warp a head, or bolts stretching....the latter is not likely as long as they're properly torqued... U know that already, ur running 9 lbs of boost on 11.0:1 compression....

I thought heat soaking happens on the intake side of the motor...when intake temps sky rocket from stop and go traffic in the middle of a summer day creating such a sluggish low end, and u know the rest... As far as the motor internally..it should always maintain a certain temp..regulated by thermostat opening, fans kicking in....anything above that is called overheating... Sure, a heat soaked intake manifold will increase combustion temps slightly...but then in that case thermostat would remain open longer and so would the fan and the rest follows... But anyway I don't wanna lecture anyone on this...

At high speeds...friction of the air helps more..with a properly cooled intake charge even in boost the temps should go down at WOT cooling the rest of the intake system...

Again it leads to combustion temps increasing with the extra pressure.. That's where proper exhaust set up comes into play... Which if not done properly can also lead to higher combustion temps...leading to engine failure...

As u know exhaust gasses bounce back also...they can lead right back into the combustion chamber at (valve change over, when both are slightly open) mixing with the fresh air...leading to leaner mixures and higher temps... That's associated with too much back pressure from ur exhaust system...

Higher intake pressure than exhaust, no good..

Not that ur not properly set up... But just let this be a lesson to whoever needs it..

Since we're on the exhaust..most say u need bigger exhaust when ur boosted and all that...leading to a simple belief "more power"...but barely anyone takes the time to educate someone else with the technical factors of such....also the benefits of a healthy motor so it doesn't fail.

Sorry for the long stretch of posts, I tend to get lost into details lol.

I hate cars

The only part of that I don't agree with is the intake charge cooling under boost due to the extra airflow.

Post blower/turbo will always get hotter with more boost. The compression of the air by itself causes the charge temp to rise. Then you have the friction of the air to wheel/rotors and of course the pre blower temp too.

I'm running one of the biggest baddest most effiecient compressors available and I still see charge temps 80 degrees or more over ambient pre-turbo air at full boost, post turbo, pre intercooler. That's one thing you can't escape is compression of air makes heat.

I guess it would be possible in an extreme situation where the underhood temps are so hot that the extra airflow could bring pre-blower temps down so much that you might see a reduction in post blower temps but if that were the case, drastic measures need to be taken to reduce operating temps when not in boost.

For what it's worth, I don't run a CAI and my pre turbo temps run around 140 degrees all the time. This thing pulls enough CFM that when I go WOT the pre turbo temps go down to ambient but I still see a rise in outlet temps. The 40"X18" intercooler helps a lot though.

Opel

I did mention "a properly set up intake cooling" lol

In my case...I see intake temps dropping from 165 degrees to 105..in boost... As u already know that I run water/meth injection..

I promise ill explain why this happens on my case...

While its true as u say air compressed by a turbo will generate heat, which increases charge air temps..

That's not the case with the CT Superchager...

Our SCs don't actually compress the air...they rush it into the IM.....that results in more air being pushed into the combustion chamber than the motor can actually suck through, on its own at WOT...

So in other words...the temp increase in the air being compressed isn't at play... Sure there's a bit of temp increase, but far off from being compressed...

The downfall of the SC is that as I've mentioned before...a big piece of aluminum sitting in the engine bay...retaining all the engine bay temps having inlet air pass through it, acting like a heating element...

That's the misconception of the SC generating heat...it doesn't generate heat like that, it retains engine bay heat...and it ends up heating air passing through it...

Its not like a thin pipe that can change temps quickly...that thing is pretty freaking meaty and takes a long time highway run with a good amount of air to start cooling down.....

That's why water/meth injection is so effective with this.. U catch the air right before the IM and cool it down at near ambient temp

While our engine bay like air temps may not seem so extremely hot..as u see higher temps in ur car... They're still hot enough for our sensitive TL's

Another point I wanna make is...the reason the SC starts to loose efficiency at such boost levels (about 8-9) bcs again its not compressing air.. That's why the turbo is so much more effective in power gains vs the SC (our CT crap). Rather than the difference being from engine power being robbed driving the SC... I think I can recall some numbers such as "50 hp" if that were the case...there's no way our SC are making 120 HP with 4 psi,... 70 whp additional on the dyno + 50 to drive it.

Inaccurate

I can offer a solution to the heatsoak issue. I just did it and plan to create a new thread on it soon.

I agree with what is being discussed here. Our TL is *not* overheating because the coolant temps are too high . Our oem radiator and fans appear to be superb. The coolant temp is not the problem. On the contrary, the coolant should remain at oem levels. The ECU needs to see these oem coolant temps to derive the correct trim mapping.

The problem is the underhood ambient temps. Although I have put a lot of thought into this heatsoak issue, I have no working theory how to explain it. But from the empirical evidence, it is the underhood ambient temps. If you can keep the underhood temps down, power will stay high.

The ultimate cooling mod is to remove the plastic cowling along the wiper blades. This leaves a huge 3-inch gap between the hood and windshield, along the width of the hood, for heat to escape.

The ultimate cooling mod is not for everyone. It makes the car look ugly, and butt-ugly when viewed from under the hood. But, it works wonders for keeping the underhood temps to nearly outside temps. I am in Houston with a heat wave and my underhood temp is nil with this mod.

Before the mod, I was able to hold my hand on the hood or intake manifold for less than 1/4 second. After the mod, I can *comfortable* do the same indefinitely. And, my throttle response and power is identical from morning leaving the driveway or 5:00 PM after sitting in rush-hour traffic in 100 degree weather for an hour.

P.S. - I hope my reply was on-topic. Heaven help to poor soul with all of the oem plastic engine coverings and a turbo under the hood.

Opel

ive been thinking of installing 2-12 inch fans on the hood facing up...so they can blow out the heat, and create downforce at the same time. lol

Inaccurate

Not needed. Try the "ultimate cooling mod", and then decide.

I hate cars

That's not quite right.

A turbo is a centrifugal compressor. There's no actual compression of the air until it leaves the turbo. The air is taken in by the compressor wheel's inducer (the part you see when looking at the intake) and is flung outward by the exducer. It's centrifugal force that flings the air out that becomes boost.

The roots supercharger is a positive displacement compressor. It takes the air in and traps it between the rotors and releases it on the other side into the intake manfold or intercooler.

With either one, the intake tract is the restriction and boost is built. No matter what the method, the air is still compressed in the intake tract and a lot of the heat is from this compression. If this wasn't true, the boost guage would never move off of 0psi.

There is compression of the charge between the rotors of the blower, this is why the roots style blowers have such a horrible efficiency rating, usually in the 50% range while turbos can reach 90%. This is the reason for the turbos running much cooler charge temps than the roots blowers.

After a certain rpm, it's just cavitating and blowing hotter and hotter air without a corresponding increase in boost. Turbos will actually do this too though it's pretty rare.

This is also why you see most roots blown applications running <10 psi due to the tremendous amout of heat they produce.

If you want cooler charge temps with the roots, you have to go to a bigger unit which in turn will deliver more air for each revolution of the rotors and at a lower temp at the cost of more hp to drive it.

I hate cars

Of course I forgot that the blower may act as a big heatsink, sure, but I guarantee the majority of the heat in the intake charge is from the action of the blower compressing the air, not from the heat of the blower itself.

And of course, with methanol the charge is going to run much cooler. That sort of changes things a bit. With meth I see temps 40 degrees below ambient and that's under 20+ psi.

One reason we don't run methanol pre blower is it won't cool nearly as well. Besides it working better with a larger temperature differential, if you inject it pre blower it gets heated and compressed along with the air so it's less effective.

Opel

im losing it....rofl

I hate cars

I lost it a long time ago.

I think I should be working but instead I'm on Acurazine for 8 hours straight. That's enough to make anyone go crazy.

My head hurts.

Opel

careful dont stretch those bolts lol

Rick_TL-S

IHC, anyone ever tell you, you should be writing "Turbocharging for Dummies"?

I hate cars

LOL. I worked for the guy that holds/held the record for the fastest turbo vehicle. Mechanical fuel injected methanol 355 SBC in a 2,700lb rail. It was going 6 ohs at 210mph and never made a pass without lifing because the chassis wasn't setup for that kind of power.

I'm basically the little bitch around that crowd.

lucnex

iTrader: (3)

aannnnddddd........I am completely lost!

Majofo

... but you're like the coolest guy in a crowd of nerds waiting for the midnight release of star wars here... teach us obi-won.. lol..

77donovan77

iTrader: (2)

For the many of you guys reading the last few pages, one can definetly get LOST IN TRANSISTION.... IHC, Opel, Inaccurate, 04accordcpe your hands on knowledge on the subject matter is very valuable and appreciated What I would give to have you guys over for beer and a BBQ on a warm summer day under a tree with the hood up.....PRICLESS oh yeah, and you too Rodney

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

im down for a BBQ