AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

10-11 psi? Going to really test the limits.

For the rev bounce I was thinking could it be compared to the manual that its "slipping"?

Inaccurate

The following is just my deductions. The service manual does not fully explain it in the manner that I am explaining it. I am just using conjecture in the discussion below.

I highly doubt that it is clutch slippage. The trans has speed sensors on the input shaft and the output shaft inside the transmission. The computer knows that for each gear that the output speed should be “x” speed. If there is clutch slippage, the computer will throw a code.
The only time that slippage is allowed is between shifts.



Also, it is highly unlikely that the clutch would slip once fully engaged. I am not saying it is impossible. Once the clutch pack is engaged, it takes a lot to make it to start slipping. A clutch is much more likely to continue slipping and refuse to fully engage during the shifting process. Bert’s situation would require for the clutch to begin slipping after being fully engaged, which is the unlikely scenario.

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So it looks like by the bottom 5 he would have a blinking "D" light if what we saw was it trying to grab 3rd but slipping long enough. I wonder what the time frame has to be once a shift is completed to let it throw an incorrect gear ratio code. After watching the video again the problem definately seems to be electronic.

You know how when you spin the tires bad in first or second the car will sometimes get stuck in second. I had this happen in the rain one time. I wonder if the rpms climb quicker than a preset rate this happens...

FWIW, shifts are VERY nice at WOT. Third was a little softer than second but that's pretty normal.

Inaccurate

Doubt this is the cause. Mine goes thru 2nd gear as quickly as Bert’s. Mine has not ever bounced off of the rev limiter on a normal basis. I have only had that “once in a blue moon” episode that most 5AT experience.

I wot from stop lights on wet roads often. Still, I have never had mine bounce off of the limiter.

I doubt that Bert had this issue before the turbo. From a logical aspect, it seems to be something tied to being turbo’ed however.

I hate cars

What has changed in regards to what the computer sees?

The MAP voltage goes higher.
RPM climb quicker.
More load, does the TL have something along the lines of LV8?
Richer mixture.
I'm sure there are more that others can add.


There's always the chance that it's blowing through the convertor from time to time which would give a lower input shaft reading vs engine rpm than it's used to. But the TL *should* use engine rpm also. This would explain why even if the diet TL and the turbo TL accelerate at the same rate that the diet TL does not suffer from this fate as light weight TL has less load than stock on the convertor.

It doesn't look or sound like it's blowing through the convertor but who knows. Abnormally low dyno numbes would tell for sure.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Around me they had 94 from sunoco for a while but not anymore. I only use 93

Im trying to figure it out also. Its not the classic signs of slipping but rather the pcm gets flustered at the shift point and doesnt know what to do. It reacts like it would if you were in SS mode and banged the rev limiter. It would still hold the gear while engine braking itself back down.

The only data I know in regards to closing the throttle a certain percentage is from Inaccurates data logging thread. You can hear the BOV chirp a little bit in between the shifts when the trans is shifting itself. The BOV is obviously much louder when you pull your foot from the throttle since its releasing all the boost at that point.

Never had this issue before



I dont know if this has anything to do with it but its something I noticed.

Ive been watching the 2 videos over and over again, frame by frame towards the end of 2nd gear.

Watch the video where I start in 2nd gear and go WOT. If you listen very closely right around 6000rpms, the exhaust note changes very quickly at that point. Almost like it stutters for a second. At this same time, the boost drops from 7.2 to 6.4 for a fraction of second and continues to bounce between 6.4 and 7.4 until it hits the rev limiter.

In the video where I start in 1st gear and run to 3rd, the exhaust note does not change in 2nd gear like it did before and the boost stays much more level until the shift. Then it shifts fine.

Would this have anything to do why Im hitting the rev limter sometimes?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

4th gear WOT. Car pulls pretty hard.

If you want to yell at me for driving that fast then keep it PMs.

Heres a youtube vid of a stock 06 auto TL doing a top end run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVarO1b12yI

No comparison. Lean out 4th a bit more and it should pull even harder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pExKJixgWck

libert69

iTrader: (7)

For more comparison. Heres types09's s/c TL. Video says 327whp. I think he ran 13.2 @109

If you play with the videos and start them both at 70mph, youll see that Im at 125 when he hits 120. Turbo FTW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb7LVY-LxzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pExKJixgWck

Then if you really want to see some power, look at rodneys car. Hes at 108 when im at 100 lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFOJOSp4BSU

Inaccurate

Your 4th gear is

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^How is the nitrous build coming along? When do you think youll be finished? Im VERY curious to see if your going to hit the rev limiter like I do.

Inaccurate

^ LoL. Thus my interest in trying to solve your problem. Mine is scheduled for sometime this winter.

My plan was to not use a RPM Window. But now, I am looking to purchase a RPM window that will deactivate the nitrous after a preset rpm limit.

I will be injecting methanol for fuel. The ecu would not be able to limit the rpms.... the ecu can shutdown the oem fuel injectors, but I am injecting my own fuel (methanol). Thus, my engine would just keep rev'ing while melting down from the lean mixture from losing the oem fuel from the injectors.

I hate cars

Now that's interesting! I never thought about adding air and fuel and the effect on the revlimiter. It's like when I decided to go with two Walbros in the tank, I knew one of the risks was one failing and the remaining one supplying just enough fuel for the engine to self destruct.

Does the TL only cut fuel or hopefully spark and throttle too?

phee

iTrader: (5)

it cuts spark for sure. cant say abotu throttle

Inaccurate

Phee, where did you learn/see this info? I can't find it in the service manual.

Within the nitrous community, it is well known to avoid hitting the rev-limiter of most modern cars. Hitting the rev-limiter will shut-off the injectors, leaving the engine running super-lean (meltdown) on just the supplementary fuel from the nitrous system.

Below is the info showing the injectors being turned-off.

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Inacc, I know what the normal use of the window switch is but can you set it for an upper rpm too? If not, I honestly think you would be safer to get rid of the rev limiter all together. IMO it would be more likely to survive a few extra rpm than a second of nitrous without the fuel assuming of course that it does not cut spark too.

I'm very leary of hitting the limiter with the turbo too. I have blown a headgasket from it. I've had the car backfire and nearly blow the turbo off the car from a pop through the intake. I meant to bring this up earlier when the video of the revlimiter was first posted. It seems pretty erratic. Sometimes the car would just sit there when it had a bad trans with no issues and sometimes it would sound like a bomb went off. Of course, this was not a TL and the limiter was not exactly the soft type.

On a different note, if your car truly climbs like the turbo TL right now and you're adding a solid 100+hp and tq, there's no reason this car should not be deep in the 11s. I'm thinking you may even get away with putting it on tire since it's so light. I hate making predictions and oversimplifying but IF you pull it all together and make it work and after lots of practice, I bet it can touch 11.0.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ive been told there is no way to remove or even raise the rev limiter a few hundred rpms. The aem fic cant do it.

I was thinking rasing the rev limter a little bit may stop me from bouncing off it.

tenzingsherpa

^^ there is always a way to raise limiter if someone has the dough to do it. i know i've asked paul about raising my redline, because i got titanium valves and springs, but he said that raising the redline in these cars amounts to really fast piston speeds, which im assuming can take years off an engine's life thus causing unreliabilty right?

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Piston speeds will increase at the same rpms by increasing your stroke which I'm assuming is how you got the extra displacement. All it means if you have to use better stuff in the bottom end namely the rods. It won't really take much off in the way of engine life but it makes it more likely to throw a rod.

If you look at a 16,000 rpm F1 car, the piston speeds aren't that much higher than a 7,000 rpm TL. The F1 car uses a 1.5" stroke while I assume the TL is somewhere greater than 3". There's actually a pretty standard rule of at what piston speed you have to get into exotic materials. It does not go by rpm but piston speed instead.

Most of the time if you have the option you're better off increasing displacement with a larger bore instead of a longer stroke. This is what I did on my GN to go from 3.8L to 4.2L. No increase to piston speed whatsoever so it does not alter reliability. However you can fit larger valves and not worry about valve shrouding and the engine will breather better all around.

wraithvr442

you make more power from a larger stroke then you do a larger bore in most cases, at least more torque.

Majofo

I think you missed the point.

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That's really over generalizing. My little V6 makes over 700lbs at a very low rpm with a short 3.4" stroke and a 4" bore. If you change nothing but the stroke you will get a jump in torque due to more leveage on the crank and a little more piston dwell time near TDC. But when building an engine the larger bore advantage far outweighs a longer stroke. Generally long stroke small bore engines are better suited to tight emissions.

pass427

With 2004-2005 models a lot changed in 2006 upwards so I'm not sure but if inaccurate has an 06 a lot of minor adjustments were made to ecu for smoother shift less torque steer ect so I'm not sure if shifting in 06 is better but in anycase I know you understand what I'm tring to say I could be wrong just a suggestion as with tune 04 has more aggressive timing map which enable us to make good power at low rpm ....

libert69

iTrader: (7)

In regards to bouncing off the rev limiter in 2nd gear Ive been noticing a few things. This is based on about 7 different wot runs.

1)If im cruising between 30-50mph and I go wot in auto mode, the trans downshifts to second and this is when I will bounce off the rev limiter in 2nd

2)If I go wot from a dead stop and run through 1st and 2nd gear to redline in auto mode, the trans will NOT hit the rev limiter and will shift fine.

3)If im cruising between 30-50mph and I go wot in auto mode, the trans shifts to 2nd and if I lift my foot a tiny bit around 6200-6400rpms, the trans shifts to 3rd but hesitates a little

Shifting in SS mode guarantees a shift to the next gear (no bouncing off the rev limiter) but with a slight delay. Shifting in ss mode also lets me bring the rpms higher then auto mode which keeps the rpms a little higher for the next gear.

Inaccurate

Here is my arm-chair quarterbacking -


Items #1 and #2 combined are revealing.

I have been wondering if this is the same anomaly (glitch) as what normal people have.

stuck in 2nd gear on the highway? (click here)
07 transmission oddity. What could have caused this (click here)
Type-S 5AT, Tranny refused to upshift! (click here)


Items #1 and #2 seems to indicate that this is the same glitch. For some reason, the turbo is aggravating the glitch. I did some preliminary Google searching on "Honda automatic transmission stuck 2nd gear". Thus far, I have found nothing helpful on Google to explain why our trans have this glitch.



This is normal and expected. This is a feature, not a bug. This is the Shift Hold. The ecu is holding the gear for a second to make sure that you don't want to get back into the throttle.



This is normal and expected. Just not desirable

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Have you guys ever experimented with lower timing for spool?

I was working on a MAF low reading vs TPS high reading that retared timing to ~1-5 degrees. Spool was for all intents instant. I don't know how much adjustability you guys have and if you can base timing off of other factors but if you had a MAP vs throttle position where the timing gets significantly retarded for a second when the manifold shows 0 vacuum and the throttle is 75% or more you would not believe how quickly it will spool.

I only say this because you mentioned more aggressive timing. Every car is different but I thought I would throw this out there that sometimes retarding the timing on a turbo car will give you an increase in low end due to good spool. It's a significant enough difference that I would not recommend it if the turbo kit did not come with a good wastegate. With an average gate the boost will actually overshoot and come back down.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im confused...where do see a glitch with #2? In #2, Im saying that If I go wot from a dead stop I dont experience any problems with the shifts and I do not hit the rev limiter.

Scenario # 1 is where I will hit the rev limiter

Also, I do NOT bounce off the rev limiter in auto mode at the end of 3rd gear. The trans shifts fine to 4th

That makes perfect sense

It seems like second gear is where most of the problems/glitches are happening. I guess Ill be switching to ss mode to complete the shift for 2nd gear.

Ill have to get some more videos and see which of the next 2 scenarios provides faster times for the 1/4

1)3rd gear in auto mode to redline and let the trans shift by itself to 4th. Ive noticed the trans shifts to 4th around 6300rpms which is 97mph. This leaves more room for the rpms climb and get the mph higher.

2)3rd gear in ss mode to redline, I shift to 4th. If I can shift right around 6600 rpms and the mph should be closer to 105. This could make a HUGE difference in a 1/4 mile pass for both speed and trap.

Inaccurate, can you confirm the mph for the top of 3rd gear is 105ish?

Inaccurate

The glitch is that the trans will refuse to upshift from 2nd into 3rd after *downshifting* into 2nd. To me, I see it as a "2nd gear glitch" because the 2nd gear refuses to execute the upshift. The term "2nd gear glitch" was being used just as a figure of speech. Technically, there is nothing wrong with the 2nd gear itself. It appears to actually be an ecu (PCM to be exact) glitch that is refusing to recognize that it is time to do an upshift from 2nd into 3rd.


Your problem appears to be the same glitch as these threads discuss. One of those threads is actually your thread -

stuck in 2nd gear on the highway? (click here)
07 transmission oddity. What could have caused this (click here)
Type-S 5AT, Tranny refused to upshift! (click here)


In the threads linked directly above, these people experience the same problem after the trans has *downshifted* into 2nd versus from a dead stop. The same as you.

Your current problem might be something as simple as wheel spin as discussed in those threads. This would explain why you are encountering this problem so often now that you have the turbo. Everyone in those threads agree that it happens after the trans has *downshifted* into 2nd and the car experiences wheel spin while in 2nd. Then, the ecu will not realize that it is time to upshift and bangs against the limiter.

Your turbo is making too much power and causing wheel spin. That's the problem here

I think the last time that I had this problem was when my previous tires were nearly bald. The bald tires were getting fairly slippery. I was probably spinning without knowing it.

My wheel-spinning theory would also explain why you see your boost levels dropping immediately before the problem. The boost drops as the engine load is dropping from the lack of traction.

I am starting to draw this as a firm conclusion now. So, this means that I *must* incorporate a nitrous RPM Window Switch to shut off my nitrous at approx 6400 RPM. Thanks for sharing your problem Bert. It helped me too.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I remember a week or 2 ago that I had some wheel spin on the very top of first gear and I hit the rev limiter that time. That was the only time that happened in 1st gear. I heard the tires spinning and the rpms jumped to redline almost instantly.

If im having wheel spin on the top of 2nd then thats pretty wild. I cant hear the tires spinning and the vsa light does not blink. These nitto invos are supposed to be as sticky as the NT05 but more comfortable for a daily driver.

Heres something else to consider. Now that I look back on these runs, each time I always had the vsa on. Im going to turn it off later today and do a few pulls and see what happens. Wouldnt that be great if it was as easy as turning the vsa off lol

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Invos are nowhere near as sticky as the NT05s. I dug up some back to back track times when I was researching them with both on the same Vette. There was a huge 7 second difference around the course.

Inaccurate

To the best of my ability, it looks something like this -


MPH x 66.4 = RPM

-or-

RPM / 66.4 = MPH


However, please note that there seems to be considerable variance based on unknown variables. Please see my post from today in the Data Loggers (click here) thread to see what I mean.

In other words, your mph and rpm might vary from mine. My performance is based on light weight and yours is based on power. This will impact the math formula to some extent... significant extent

Inaccurate

Based on those linked threads, it seems that the tires need to slip just somewhere in 2nd, not necessarily at the top of 2nd.

I had one opportunity recently to discover that the vsa light will not blink (or even function as TCS ???) after a certain mph. The roads were wet and the surface was asphalt (meaning more slippery than concrete when wet). I was feeling playful and I am fairly sure that the wheels were spinning. I immediately noticed that the vsa light was not blinking. And, I always have my vsa on, so that is not in question.

I remember reading that someone wrote in the Second Generation section that the TCS would stop working after 40 mph. At the time I did not believe it. But when it happened to me, I automatically thought of what that person said. "Humm, it might be true".

On the other hand, I have had slight hydroplaning at 70 mph and the vsa light blinked then.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

My car used to spin the tires in 2nd with the VSC on just alittle. I always thought the car couldn't pull the throttle fast enough. I know for sure that traction control works at any speed, the faster you are going the more you need it. I know some systems allow more slippage than others.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I said *supposed* to be as sticky. I read a few threads on different forums that did before and after comparisons with the NT05 and INVO. Most of the drivers said the INVO performed just as good as the NT05 on the street. The difference being the INVO was comfortable for a daily driver

105MPH x 66.4 = 6972rpms...I saw a youtube vid of an 06 TL going WOT in 3rd gear in ss mode. At about 6700rpms when he shifted to 4th, he was at 105mph.

Each car must be different then

I hate cars

Unfortunately our inefficient stock torque convertors are going to allow a fair amount of slip and it's going to get higher with more power. I wish they locked in with 1-2% slip like my racing convertor does but these will slip more with more power. I have a feeling Inaccurate will probably be going a few mph faster at each of his shift points due to less load on the convertor.

As for the Invos vs NT05, you have to sift through the internet BS as with most things. I read where some people can't tell the difference but those are the type of people that might jerk the car side to side or take a 30mph corner at 40mph to test the tire. The response of the NT05 is better than any street legal tire I've every run on and the grip is just barely less than an R compound. They really are in a class of their own. Not as good as the NT05R which will have much better traction in a straight line but not as good through the corners.

I hate cars

I didn't notice this the first time around but it's very good to see the minimum rpm to go into fuel cut. I've always said 1,000-1,200 as a safe number.

Maybe you meant stability control? When I've forgotten to turn mine off and the car got a little too sideways, it flashed the light just like traction control kicking in. Unfortunately there's no way for me to test the traction control above 40mph unless it's on ice or snow.

Inaccurate

CORRECTION


MPH x 65.1 = RPM

-or-

RPM / 65.1 = MPH


My small diameter tires causing issues again

I had to configure my data logger with a mph correction factor to compensate for my small tires. So, I thought "no problem with my tires because of the correction factor."

Wrong. We need to apply reverse logic in this case. My correction factor is throwing-off the math formula that I gave you. So, here is the formula as it applies to an oem TL (not Type S which has a different gear ratio).

Inaccurate

IHC,

Have you had the chance to see my post from today in the Data Loggers (click here) thread?

Inaccurate

Regarding my previous comment that the tires need to slip just somewhere in 2nd, not necessarily at the top of 2nd.

If my theory is right about the wheel spin, I think in your case with the turbo that it is the very top of 2nd. Watching your video, it is obvious from watching the tach move and listening to the rpm climb, that the turbo is pumping out a lot of power at the very top of 2nd.

phee

iTrader: (5)

have we reached a conclusion as to why its hitting the limiter? it very well may be tire slip at high rpms like i mentioned a while back.

Inaccurate

Well, *now* you tell us

Just joking I had to go back a few pages to find where you first said this.

I think you are correct. I am drawing this as a firm conclusion too.