I hate cars

The cone pattern is nice but when you have 600CFM of air coming at over 300mph, the shape of the spray pattern does not matter that much. As Inaccurate pointed out, once the air hits the intake manifold it goes left and right. I would want the nozzle on the top or bottom so that you're sure it gets distributed evenly.

Inaccurate

Snow is stating generic (best case) directions.

Our TL intake is a problem-child with that left/right fork-in-the-road. Your 3 o’clock position is the main problem, not so much the 6” from TB. But with the 3 o’clock and the 6” from TB… that equals a big problem.

If the intake did not have that split, the 6” from TB would be ok. If the intake did not have the split, the 3 o’clock might had been ok.

If the nozzle was at 3 o’clock but much further away from the TB, this *might* not had been so bad because there would had been some distance to allow air turbulence to mix the spray into the air stream.

As it is, there is no distance to try to have air turbulence to distribute that one-side spray before encountering the fork in the road.

I feel bad. I recall that you had posted a question asking where you should mount the nozzle. I am sorry that I did not think of this to tell you ahead of time.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

So spell it out for me because I cant comprehend this after an extremely long day . Would adding another nozzle at 6 o'clock solve this problem or no?

Inaccurate

If it was me, I would make a single nozzle at the elbow at the 6 o’clock position like I illustrated in the pic.


I can’t think of anything seriously wrong with having opposing nozzles – one at 3 o’clock and another at 9 o’clock.

I can think of several anal-retentive reasons however:
- Two smaller nozzles are easier to clog than one larger orifice.
- Two opposing nozzles might form larger droplets from the opposing patterns colliding into each other. Just a paranoid theory.
- An additional concern with making sure that your distribution block (one feed line being divided to feed two nozzles) is able to truly divide the feed line to have a balanced flow rate.

If it was me, I would make a single nozzle at the elbow at the 6 o’clock position like I illustrated in the pic.

Yes. Irregardless of the nozzle size, it is still an uneven delivery to the engine. I know it is a pain in the butt. Believe me, I know. Redo's are just a part of modding a car.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I was planning on putting mine on the elbow but it will be at 4-5 o'clock because of the way the pipe comes out of the intercooler. My pipe goes downhill to the TB to clear the intake piping and I want to make sure any leak ends up in the intercooler and not in the intake.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Just a heads up for those of you looking to purchase this turbo kit feel free to PM us. We have set up with J&R to become a Distributor for this turbo kit. We will posting an official thread within a few days but in the meantime feel free to contact us for pricing.

Majofo

What will be the change in price?

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Margin is pretty tight and they estimated shipping at $175-$200 so the kit will probably come out to just under $6000 shipped to the cont 48 US

Majofo

wow..

I'm glad J&R teamed up with Excelerate. Sounds like a good move on all fronts.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

This is great news. Some of the issues was the packaging and shipping. Now Rodney can concentrate on the shop and not the logistics of the other stuff.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

hey guys dont forget that you can always buy just the manifold piping from JandR's website and piece together your own kit. I remember a while back that people wanted to build thier own kits but didnt want to spend so much money getting the pipes fabbed up. Now you can buy every individual piece of this kit from thier website and change things to your likely

n3o

iTrader: (2)

Where are the videos?!?!! I want to hear an external gate scream on a J series

Inaccurate

We have come a long ways since Page 1. Who would had thought this would happen back on Page 1.

It's fun to sometimes go back and read the first few pages of this thread. It was like "Oh crap, not another turbo fantasy thread."

Is J&R website still this below?
http://jandrnextlevelperformance.com

If so, have you looked recently. The site is now nothing but a place holder. The site contains nothing but basic contact info.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yes thats the site inaccurate. A few weeks ago they had everything listed individually for sale. I remember seeing it. Since then rodney has been working with a web designer to fine tune everything. The week he was in NJ to do my install really put a hault to the website design.

Inaccurate

Or, XLR8 now has exclusive rights to sell the J&R products ????

hondamaint

I have been watching this thread for a long time and also talking with Rodney. I am with Honda Manufacturing of Alabama where we build the Odyssey,Pilot ,Ridgeline and V6 Accords. We have a couple Odyssey minivans that we have done the one Lap of America in, autocross and got full SCCA log book's for. One of them is a J35 turbo with a 6mt from an Acura TL. Do a search for turbo Honda Odyssey if you are interested.
We have aa all new 2011 Odyssey coming out and want to do SCCA events , time attack and the One Lap of Amreica with it. We did the last turbo system in house and it turned out well but think for this one we may use J&R. I have been following this thread for a while and like what I see . We will use a new 6speed automatic in the car.
I just talked to Rodney tonight and it may work out that we can do the project together.

Inaccurate

Hondamaint,

I recall seeing pics of your minivan project. Awesome endeavor.

I remember that you posted a few times in this thread back in October 2009 (click here).

We welcome your participation and input.

pass427

apologies for.dissapearing for so long ive been travelling for the last few weeks , but i know ihc inaccurate,and other knowledgeable guys are always here to answer any.questions that i couldnt respond to .............
excellerate will be selling our kits which is great hopefully therell be a group buy ect,
...
libert it was a pleasure working with you especially with all delays we encountered rain after rain then finally no light lol hope to see you in two weeks. for a retune under ideal conditions and most likely back to indoor dyno ....

Hondamaint looking forward to working with you on the odessy project ...

Majofo

phee

iTrader: (5)

i saw that too. will this odysee have the same block as the zdx? is this what you are telling us? will it bolt up to our blocks? im sure it doesnt because of the changes that were made to the tranny housings

Inaccurate

Before we drop the topic of WMI nozzle placement, I want to post this illustration. This illustration betters demonstrates the concern of placing the nozzle at any position other than the 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock.

In the pic above, the blue arrows show the mist entering from the 3 o'clock position. Note how the opposite side of the intake tube is deprived of receiving any of the injection. Three cylinders "have", and the other three cylinders "have not".

However, having a nozzle at 3 o'clock and another nozzle at 9 o'clock would alleviate this concern. Each nozzle would feed each side of the airstream.

hondamaint

I am not too sure about the ZDX block. We do have a MDX motor we could try the new 6 speed on to see if it fit's.

I hate cars

Good illustration. I think we both agree that a single nozzle placed in a neutral position (6 or 12) would be best for mixing and for reliability.

I have a hard time remembering this stuff from so many years ago but I remember revving it up and purging the meth. Then running around and feeling the pipe. You can feel a difference in temperature from one side of the pipe to the other within 4" from the nozzle which became all one temp greater than 4". Maybe one of these guys can shoot temps right after the meth has been triggered. It's a VERY crude way of checking distribution. The big problem with my way of doing it is even at redline in neutral you don't have much airflow compared to full throttle under boost. I ASSume that 4" that it took to become all one temp with no load might be stretched out to 6+ inches under full power.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ill be doing a dual nozzle setup to address the issues you guys have been talking about.

On another note, the car is driving great. Except for the fact that it bogs a little around 3200rpms in 2nd gear while cruising only. But after looking at the a/f graph from the second dyno day it shows there is not enough fuel around that area.

Keeping the car under 2500rpms and it sounds just like it has an aftermarket exhaust setup. I have the wastegate dump open and routed to 1/2" below the sub frame so the car screams once your in boost.

Ive been trying to "lift" between shifts and seems to be working well but its taking a lot of practice to get it right. The car pulls so damn hard that I find myself lifting off the throttle around 5800rpms and letting it shift to the next gear.

I actually think 4th gear pulls harder then 3rd which is amazing since 4th gear in the auto absolutely sucks when wot.

I hate cars

That's good news. Sounds like a lot of fun. You're experiencing torque lol. Turbo cars usually like tall gears to really lay the torque down in.

If you don't lift on the shift, can you hear the BOV chirp and will it complete the shift ok under full power?

Inaccurate

NOTE - Paul please read

Really appreciate the update Bert

I was wondering how the car has been performing lately.

Paul - In my Data Logging thread (click here), the data logging shows that the TL's ecu removes throttle between shifts.

Data log citation 1 (click here)
Data log citation 2 (click here)

In addition to just those two references above from my data logging thread, I can supply more screen shots showing that the 3G 5AT TL ecu shuts down the throttle between the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4 gear changes. I have no data logging of a wot 4-5 gear changes, so I will not include the 4-5 gear change in this discussion.

Therefore, based on what the logging appears to show, do you still think that the boosted 3G 5AT TL drivers need to lift off of the throttle between shifts?

I think that you have an Accord, correct? Perhaps the TL ecu is different than the Accord ecu with regards to how shifts are executed

pass427

if im not mistaken i think ecu closes butterfly during shifts not completely ill vrlerify but im almost sure....

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ill get you this info later tonight when I do a little more driving. To be honest, I have not let the car reach redline and shift by itself in fear of having the trans slip. Maybe im too cautious right now but im trying to get a feel for how the car reacts and shifts now. Its really a totally different car then before

I hate cars

I don't blame you. No rush at all. When you do finally do it, be ready to lift quickly unless the shift is quick and crisp. If there is any delay, lift.

The reason I was asking about the BOV is to know if the ECU closes the throttle fully or close to full on the shifts. I'm actually nervous thinking about it. Even if it takes the WOT shifts well, it's probably good practice to lift when you're messing around except for close races. I do this in my car, if it's something I can beat at 1/4 pedal I get deep into the throttle for half a second to spool it and then back way out.

pass427

libert no need to rush id rather you enjoy your car than rather testing the limits of trans for now, but ihc im almost 98percent sure but i can verify this as libert will also but i have driven typeS auto car which has 50k but libet trans shift as if its new it amazing how it shifts thou you can tell he prepared it right ...

Inaccurate

That's the Racing Type-F ATF doing it's thing

After all of this time, I am still amazed by how my trans will shift with Racing ATF.

xrvman

Ive been following this thread since day one... and I love everyone for doing this... we need some good videos thats about all this is missing... (BTW im a videographer/photographer any one want to play) and second... now that we have piggyback tune system why has no one tried stuffing some boost in STS form instead of smashing it under the hood... feel free to bash if this has been discussed I was just wondering...

I hate cars

The STS setup on a little V6 with a moderately sized turbo would take a week to spool. Turbo needs to be as close to the heads as possible while the exhaust has the most energy.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

pulled 2 car lengths on a 335i from 65-100

Back to the question. Under full power, the BOV will chirp when shifting near redline without me causing the shift (lifting my foot). Its actually hard to hear since the wastegate is so loud but you can definitely hear it. The BOV chirp is not nearly as loud in the above scenario as it would be if I completely let off the gas under full throttle though.

HOWEVER I DO NOT LIKE THE WAY THE CAR SHIFTS ON ITS OWN IN 1ST AND 2ND GEAR UNDER WOT near the redline. It seems like the trans can not shift fast enough (on its own without me causing the shift) under full boost and during wot right near the redline before it hits the rev limiter. It has bounced off the rev limiter in auto mode a few times in 2nd gear . It scares the shit out of me since Ive never seen that happen except in SS mode. Maybe thats a real bad sign.

During a wot run from 35mph in 2nd gear all the way to redline (about 70mph) caused the car to bounce off the rev limiter 3 times really fast and it did not shift to third. I let off the gas, switched to neutral real quick and everything was fine after that. It reminded me of a time a long while back when I hit the throttle to the floor to pass a snow truck. The tires spun (ice on the road) and quickly went to redline and stayed in 2nd. I had to shift to neutral to get it back to normal. A few people believe this is a safety measure built into the car to protect itself but there is no hard data to prove it.

Then about 40 minutes later, I tried another 2nd gear wot run from 35mph and it seemed like the trans did not want to shift when I let my foot off the throttle around 6000rpms. I lifted my foot very quickly then hit the throttle again to cause a shift but it did not shift. It stayed in second gear for a second or so, I let off the throttle again and it shifted to third this time.

Even if the ecu closes the throttle in-between shifts, I dont think the trans can react quickly enough in the lower gears to shift fast enough before hitting the rev limiter.

For now on, I will be lifting my foot to cause the shift around 6000rpms max just to play it safe.

Inaccurate, in your graph where you say the throttle closes to around 39% in-between shifts, does that mean that 39% of the cars power is making its way through in-between the shift? Could the new amount of power Im now making be to much for the trans to handle in-between shifts causing it to hit the rev limiter..?..?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Another thing...when you clear a CEL, does that reset the ecu the same way as unplugging the battery?

If I unplug the battery, do the idle relearn (even inaccurates version), the rpms will sometimes drop to 500 when coming to a full stop or shifting to drive from park. It will fix itself after a while.

If I clear a CEL, then drive afterwards, the rpms will do the same thing as above BUT will go away after a day or so.

Inaccurate

This part is 100% normal. This is the "Shift Hold" feature of the trans. From Acura -

"To cut down on unnecessary shifting when negotiating winding roads, the Sequential SportShift automatic incorporates improved logic called Shift-Hold Control. When the throttle is suddenly released and the brakes are applied, as is the case when decelerating at the entrance of a corner, Shift-Hold Control keeps the transmission in its current (lower) ratio as it negotiates the corner and accelerates out. This feature leaves the chassis undisturbed by excess shifting,
and ensures that abundant power is available without a downshift at the exit of the corner."

In my experiences, the hold happens also when I have been wot and suddenly release the pedal. The trans will hold that gear for a few seconds waiting to see if I want to smash it again. I really like this feature. When I am driving aggressively and someone cuts in front of me causing me to lift off. I can taken a split second to calculate a new course... and back into wot... the trans was holding the gear for me and we are off to the races.

Based on your recent dyno, my car is as quick as yours. And based on your 335i race, that is what I would had done too I think. With the two cars being equally as quick, we should have the same rate of RPM climb thru the gears. I have never had any issue with the RPM climbing so quickly that the ecu could not manage it to properly shift. I never had issues with hitting the rev limiter. If you recall my videos, you can see the rpm climb quick and that was with me going uphill. So, mine will climb much quicker than the videos shows when I am on level ground.

Here is my theory. It is the boost. The ecu closes the throttle to a large extent, but the engine is making much more power even with the throttle closed to a large extent with all of that head pressure from the spooled-up turbo. I know that is what the blow-off is for. But, I don't know much more about blow-off valves. I am imaging that there is still max boost even when the blow-off opens. The blow-off just prevents excessive pressure that would be higher than the designed max boost., right? So, the ecu cuts the throttle, blow-off opens but psi is still at designed max, and the turbo has not had time to spool down yet.

I can see how this could maybe cause you to hit the rev limiter. The ecu is not able to cut the power of the engine sufficiently during shifts. Even with the ecu partially closing the throttle for the shift, the boost is making more power than the ecu expects, causing the RPM to keep rising until the limiter kicks in to control it.

It is good that you switched to the racing ATF. If you still had that Z1 and those sloooow shifts, you would really be in trouble.

Inaccurate

No. Clearing a CEL only tells the ecu to forget about that error until it happens again. Disconnecting the battery causes the ecu to dump everything from its volatile memory, such as any CEL, learned idle, learned timing to avoid detonation, learned 5AT shift patterns, etc.


Since I posted my instructions for the Idle Relearn, I paid closer attention the next time that I had to do it. Before, I just typed those directions from my memory. But, after having to do a relearn since then, I discovered areas for improvements in the directions. The bold text indicates the revisions.



Idle Relearn


Wear safely glasses. Remove Ground cable from battery. Allow to sit for a minute or more with ground cable removed. Replace ground cable while wearing safely glasses.

The ground cable can be removed and replaced beforehand, such as the night before starting the car as described below.

1) The engine *must* be cold. The battery must had been disconnected prior to starting. Turn off air conditioning.

2) Start car. Let idle for approx 7-10 minutes. During this whole step, leave in Park, never touch gas pedal, and never turn on air conditioner.

3) Put your foot on the brake. Put in Drive. Let it idle in Drive for approx 10 seconds. Put back in Park. During this whole step, never touch gas pedal, and never turn on air conditioner.

4) Repeat same step #3 as above. Do step #3 for 10 times in a row. Yes, ten times. After each time, you will notice that the RPM will drop less each time. It takes about 8 times to get it perfect. So, do it ten times just to make sure.

5) With it in Park and without touching gas pedal, turn on air conditioner. Listen carefully and let the AC compressor cycle approx three times or more. This will take roughly 4-5 minutes. During this whole step, leave in Park, never touch gas pedal.

6) Put your foot on the brake. Put in Drive. Wait for 2-3 minutes as the AC compressor cycles on/off with car in Drive. During this whole step, never touch gas pedal.

7) Repeat same step #6 as above. Do step#6 for 3 times in a row.

8) Finished.

After completing this procedure, the rpm's should remain constant from Park and Drive and as AC cycles. This procedure is what I follow and it works beautifully for me.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ive never seen this before To me it sounds like the behavior of using SS mode which we all know holds the gears unless your cause the shift. Is this article referring to drving in regular auto mode though?

Based on this wording "When the throttle is suddenly released and the brakes are applied"...is there a certain sequence of events that must occur in order for the trans to hold the gear? Must the brakes be used immediately after lifting off the throttle? This all sounds like SS mode common behavior. Please correct me if this normal for regular auto mode as well.

Waiting for IHC on this one

Im wondering if using SS mode for the 2-3 shift would stop the problem of hitting the rev limiter and control the shift so it doesnt fall into 4th or 5th gear if I dont time lifting my foot correctly. Atleast we know that using ss mode will definitely hold the gear until you cause the shift. But is the slow shift of ss mode no good?

wot in 2nd to redline, release the pedal, shift to 3rd, hit throttle again. You wont miss your gear. Your effectively closing the butterfly completely so no power will be exchanged between the shift.?. Your still high enough in the powerband to build boost quickly enough for 3rd gear to take off. Thoughts?

phee

iTrader: (5)

dont know if its any consolation but my loaner 3g tl bounced off the rev limiter in full auto when there was a bit of tire slip. u may be experiencing some tire slippage that causes the bounce during shift hold.

all of this can be avoided by going into SS mode and hitting the upshift a few 100 RPM before redline.

phee

iTrader: (5)

the SS mode shift isnt any slower in actuality, it just has a signal delay before the ECU tells the trans to shift. nothing is happening any slower inside of the trans