I hate cars

I agree.

The turbo TL probably leaves the line with stock power for the first second or two.

Powrebraking allows it to leave at full power if desired.

I've found that bringing the boost up against the brakes makes for an easier launch. You eliminate that boost spike because you don't have the throttle to the floor trying to get it to spool.

You can pretty much find what boost the tires will hold at off the start and when it's go time, release the brake and don't give it any more throttle until the top of first or beginning of second.

I want to address the same trap speed at 8 and 10psi but that will have to wait.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

im impressed that the stock AT is holding up well esp with over 100k miles... IHC - you were right about the tranny from your other thread...

libert69

iTrader: (7)

This would be last resort if we cant find another solution to finding a better launch. Can nitrous be stored for long periods of time (months) without being used?

Is the car running? I would love to know what a 6mt turbo tl would run on the track with the same boost levels Im running. I forget but are you from jersey? When I get a better tune and some more power Ill be going back. You should definitely come

I wont answer for him but he was having a bad night also and he was very suprised how bad his times were also

It may leave the line with the stock power but it sure doesnt feel like there is any power. Look at this vid. This launch is with the pedal to the floor. Look how long it takes for 2k to 3k. I dont remember my stock TL being that slow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H76IUErIj2U

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, it's running. I replaced the Zex's with some NGK iridiums and it's running much better. The amazing thing is that they are available @ AdvanceAuto for cheaper than places like Summit and Jegs. Just had to wait 1 day because they only stock 4 at a time. Still haven't made it to get my final tune and have only put about 1500 miles since I got it back on the road.

I grew up in SJ and Atco would have been closer to me. I'm now in VT about 8hrs from there. No strips up here except for Canada, but the rules since 9/11 are ridiculous.

Snow will be flying soon and my TL hasn't seen salt in it's 4.5yrs of existence so I'm going to work on my mac mini project during the winter along with trying a high flow cat to limit the smelly exhaust.

Been lurking lately watching your progress.

I hate cars

It's probably just the 10:1 AF during the transition to boost. If you could get that around 14.0 until it sees boost, spool would be much, much better as well as NA power. It will come around eventually and you'll be tractionless once you get the tune down.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I just tried this and once you press the brake the vsa word lights up as well as the vsa triangle. Also you cannot shift from park with this sensor unplugged

pass427

Think most of know that ,btw what times did u run as I see you've got most If not all bolt ons ......????

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

Irrelevant? How?

I hate cars

Because the green light only tells you to go. The timer starts when your car moves.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

LOL at me. I forgot about the shift lock override. Still cant build boost from a stand still

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

you can override the shift lock with something flat in the slot right next to the shifter... i had to do this when my brake light switch died on the road...

EDIT: lolz same thought at the same time...

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

1st: 2.44 60' . 14.77@97.13. This run I just smashed the gas pedal and had some spin off the line and spin at vtec

2nd: 2.56 60' . 15.15@95.7. This time I did brake boost and it didn't help at all, no spin off line, spin at vtec

3rd: 2.5 60' . 14.9@97.79. Same method as first run, had alot more slip this time

Relative humidity was 69
Absolute barometer was 31.23

Ur underdrive pulley, aem v2, rv6 precat deletes, atlp v1 jpipe, rv6 race pipe, greddy evo 2

Inaccurate

Thanks for giving it a try. After I posted the wiring diagram, I looked more closely at the diagram. I was afraid of something like a cel after looking more closely at it.

The thing is that the damn ecu was made too smart. Just like with the oem knock sensor. Honda made sure that "failure" was not an option. If you look at the diagram, you will see that the ecu is made aware if the switch is unplugged via detecting a N.O. *and* N.C. circuits concurrently. In other words, Honda made it so that the ecu would know if it was unplugged.

POSSIBLE WORKAROUND = Remove the switch and rig it so that something in continually pressing in the button on the switch.

I would do this at least once to test if this will allow you to powerbrake. If this does not work, that would mean that the ecu is using the MPH (or the lack of movement) as an indicator to prevent the throttle being applied at a standstill.

This is all a lot of work. But it must be done for R&D. If this was to become a permanent solution to the boggy offline performance, a toggle switch could be installed on the dash to allow the brake switch to be tricked without the ecu complaining.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

Btw im running bridgestone re11s which are a VERY agressive summer tire, I did not go through the wet box, kinda wish I would of tried it
Also tein as with dampening 16 front and all the way hard in the back

Inaccurate

This would mean that the ecu is using the MPH (or lack of movement) as an indicator to limit throttle.

We are now stuck. Unable to power brake to build boost.

IHC - Do you have any suggestion on how else to get the boost to build as quickly as possible now that we know powerbraking is not an option?

EDIT - I just saw your recommendation.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

The video that was posted with the a/f pegged at 10 when I floored it from a standstill in 1st gear was with my old tune. Rodney gave me a new tune last week that I used on the track yesterday.

Here you can see the tune has a nice a/f around mid 12s right in the powerband. After 6k needs to lean out just a bit but otherwise its a much better map then I had originally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_hmXrVXCE8

I have to make a new vid with the new tune from 1st gear up to see if the a/f is still pegged at 10 in 1st gear. I know rodney told me he leaned it out around 3k so I have to check

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Just thought I would throw it out there. On track the highest trans temp I saw was after my 3rd run and it said 212°

Inaccurate

Yes sir. Nitrous can be stored indefinitely. Nitrous does not degrade nor decomposed like gasoline with long term storage.

I agree that the nitrous should be a last-resort option for you. Nitrous has way too many gotcha's associated with it. Leaking solenoids causing kaboom, lean mixture causing kaboom, difficult to purchase quality nitrous refills because companies cheat (greed $) so much, and the list goes on and on.

I am willing to put-up with these things because nitrous is my only power-adder and I love nitrous (conceptually wise). I have work-arounds for most of these gotcha's that I mentioned. This is why I will have my own mother bottle at home to do my *own* refills. The mother bottle will come from AirGas. Anything less than purchasing your nitrous from a national, reputable company is a huge crap-shot. Forums are filled with people getting shafted (cheated) by local speed shops supposedly refilling their bottle. Not really filled completely. And *if* it is filled completely, filled with what . Their cars run like crap because the speed shop filled their bottle with something but it was not nitrous. :angryfire

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

any possibility of putting a line lock on the brake line?

ihc - i know this was popular with domestic draggers back in the day... my friend had one on his camaro... maybe you have more knowledge with your exposure with the GN?

I hate cars

14.0 AF, pull timing back to 10 degrees and you'll have instant boost.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

Not worth it in a fwd car, u have the ebrake and that's good enough

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I have to make a new vid of first gear wot with the new tune for Rodney and he is going to try and adjust the low rpms accordingly. Lets hope for the best

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Heres 2 vids that another member on azine took of my car. Atleast I got the win both times lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLMQEtAXffQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iweSo-MbdyU

Maddizm

iTrader: (5)

^ woohoo! Congrats!

phee

iTrader: (5)

couldn't we use something to cause misfires before launching? this would essentially build boost from the standstill.

I was going to recommend leaning out the mixture before boost but IHC covered that already.

inacc: tricking the switch into thinking it is constantly pressed will defeat the purpose, the ecu will continue to bog the car down.

we could try stronger parking brake pads or a more aggressive adjustment.

Majofo

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

Who was the other az guy? Lol

Tl definitely shocked people on the first run reguardless of the time

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

ROFL that M3 and mustang must have been like wtf? is my car broke a TL?

pass427

man libert after seeing those videos im very astonished but ill work with you as long as it takes to get the off the line situation sorted out.....

libert69

iTrader: (7)

It was actually that guy that rolled up in the black 2g TL when we were parked. I had no idea he was a member

Even though I was not trying to race them but rather get a good et, it felt good when I started to pull on them in 3rd gear

blkaspec

wow, nice videos! its nice to see a TL out in front for once

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

That will be sickkk

I figured lol...

Dave_B

My guess is the car feels slower off the line because you're now accustomed to the big surge in power once the turbo comes to life.

I'll fully admit I am a TOTAL turbo newb so I could be totally off my rocker. IMO, your sluggish start is the factor of three things:

1) Poor 1st gear ratio. It's my understanding that 1st gear on the 5AT is relatively long therefore will not result in a hard launch. Due to more displacement and low end torque, the TLS 5ATs seem to do a bit better.

2) Tight torque converter. This means the TC has a low stall rpm meaning it won't allow you to launch at a higher rpm and get signficiantly more torque mutliplication, which like the 1st gear issue, is needed for a hard launch. Basically a higher stall TC greatly increases torque multiplication and can allow the car to come off the line in or near the start of it's power band.

3) Turbo. By just looking at the turbo unit, my guess is it's probably a bit too big for the automatic's gearing and TC issues. The turbo is designed for a relatively big hit in power, but at the expense of lag below 3000-3500rpms. This laggy setup does you absolutely no good when trying to come off the line with a tall 1st gear and a tight TC.

I'd venture to guess your car is making fractionally less power from idle to 3000-3500rpms prior to the turbo setup. Thanks in a large part to all the piping and spooling up the turbo. All the factors I listed completely kill your 60 foot. For every .1 dropped from 60', reduces ET by at least .15 seconds. That means if your car could pull a 2.0 60', you'd immediately be running upper 12s. A 12.9@108mph with ~2.0 60' makes complete sense.

Maybe IHCs is on to something about the timing and fuel ratio, but is that type of tuning really accessible to you right now? Is it even really possible to change these parameters below 3000rpms?

IMO, if you want to come off the line like you should (ie 1.8 -2.0 60 foots depending on tires), you should consider the following things:

1) Install a smaller and quicker spooling turbo. Sure, you give up some power (maybe 40whp), but you replace it with a far more useable powerband and one that could significantly improve launch capability because you could stall TC and actually build boost. You're not trying to build a drag car or trailer queen here. It's a daily driver. You want the powerbad to be fat and linear and not like a light switch (ie on or off). These turbo kits really need to be transmission specific because what works for the 6MT doesn't necessarily apply to the 5AT.

2) Short drag tires for the strip. I'd try to find smallest rims and shortest tires and mount them to the front when at the strip. The shorter tires will give you more torque multiplication and will be like adding deeper gears.


Until you get the low rpm power issue resolved, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed in your car's 1/4 mile performance and all it will be good at is 2nd gear roll races. It's takes a massive amount of power in the mid to upper rpms to overcome weak sauce launches. What you end up with is an uncontrolled car that has a super narrow, but immense peak power. It's slow to launch and spool and it goes for no balls to 50lb cannon balls in the blink of an eye. Great for bragging on the dyno, but dangerous and annoying to drive. Not to poor salt in the wounds, but a stock Civic DX pulls 2.5-2.6 60 foots. My wife's stock 165hp Legacy GT wagon auto pulls 2.4 60 foots. That gives you a sense of just how slow your car is off the line. IMO, the quickest fix is to experiment with turbos and see what results in the most consistent and useable power.

Majofo

He'll get the launch down. I have confidence that once everything tightens up, Bert will easily shave a second off his time. No turbo swapping required.

Dave_B

There's always hope. I don't see it happening though. Looking at the video he provided of the power issue below 3500rpms, the fact that the Honda (like my G) throttle cuts on brake stalls, and his 2.6+ 60 foots, he's got a long way to go. I don't see how a little timing and A/F ratio tweaking is going to significantly improve things. He needs the power and torque multiplication to launch and he has none of it. Too many factors are working against him. IMO, cut your losses and go after the easiest and most dramatic fix, a smaller and quicker spooling turbo. There's good reason as to why most street-born OEM turbos are relatively small. Too many of the aftermarket turbo kits go a bit too big simply because they want to claim big power numbers.

I hate cars

I've personally run that turbo before and I know probably too much about it. That thing is on the cutting edge of turbo technology. With some tuning, that thing will come alive off the start. Rich AF destroys spool. Timing plays an even larger role in spool. If you could momentarily retard the timing to 10 degrees and lean it to 14.0, that car will become very traction limited. A turbo car will make peak torque at whatever rpm the turbo can hit full boost. If he can get it to spool at 2,000rpm, you're going to see nearly 400lbs of torque smoking the tires.

The other major issue is the super tight factory torque convertor. It needs a minimum of a 2,500 stall convertor to work properly with this turbo.

It is a lot of turbo for a 3.2L but it's not that big. Powerbraking along will bring it to life off the start if he can figure out a way around the ECU. Couple that with a good tune and the tires will be the limiting factor.

You can't expect to do crap with a turbo that size without powerbraking. As a point of reference, I consistantly cut 1.4 60' times leaving the line with 15-20psi boost. Just mashing the gas to the floor results in 2.2 60' times. That should show the importance of powerbraking.

Libert69, how do you have the wastegate plumbed? You can get a grainger valve to go inline with the wastegate vacuum lines for about $30 that has the potential to significantly improve spool.

If you want the best spool, go with a lighter wastegate spring and bring up the duty cycle on the boost controller if you're running an EBC.

Majofo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9cQy_ZwrcU

^ 60' in 2.057.

Also.. I don't know if it's a coincidence but notice the 3rd brake light is out.. could just be the switch or he might have unplugged it. It might be something to try out Bert.

edit: nvm.. rewatched and it only appears to be out only in the end. He just launched well at the line.. still a little spin though.

Dave_B

I totally hear you, but does capability exist to retard the timing and lean out the A/F? Is there an aftermarket or modified TC out there yet? From what I've read so far, the answers to those questions are no. I know that with my Nissan ECU, it's basically impossible to change any sort of mapping below 3000rpms. After 3000rpms, all parameters are fair game. It has something to do with emissions tuning. It appears this Honda ECU is even harder to crack so would it even be possible to change these low rpm parameters.

If by the grace of God, he could brake stall and had access to a lower rpm powerband, the OEM TC should suffice because all that extra power will actually increase stall rpm of the TC. As you know, if you load up a lot more torque against the TC, you effectively increase stall rpm of the TC. A lot of people seem to forget that.

Majofo

Bert are you running bmeyer's tunable map to the AEM FI/C?

I hate cars

I have no idea of the tuning abilities out there. It takes all of my brain power to keep up with my GN stuff. No room up there for more information lol.

The real beauty of the turbo is you can drastically change the powerband by changing the spool characteristics. Even the 335 I drove had lag without powerbraking. Not as much as this TL but you know what I mean. Any turbo that can make decent power is going to require powerbraking.

I believe that powerbraking will be the easiest way to get the car off the line. The only thing I'm worried about is the stock 1,700rpm stall speed may not be enough to make any boost to increase the stall speed anyway. As an example, I have a turbo specific torque convertor. It's extremely loose under 2,600rpm and grabs all of a sudden at 2,700- 2,800rpm. That way you don't have to sit on the line for an hour with the pedal to the floor waiting on the boost to raise the stall to an acceptable level.

The Af is way too fat period. 10:1 at the transition is not acceptable and I think that can be corrected by tuning. That will make a good difference. The timing retard if possible will make spool nearly instant. The issue with this in to have the timing only retard a second or two. EGTs would be way too high for any sort of sustained runs. It would have to be some sort of throttle position vs load trigger.