KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

No kidding.....you must be putting that baby through the hoops!

Glad it's holding up for you. Looks like you aren't holding back at all now.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I drive the car 40 miles a day. Sometimes no boost at all. Sometimes balls to the wall.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ive been working with Rodney the past 2 weeks getting a tune together for a few more psi. Ive been doing a lot of research on the FIC and how to tune it. We work like this. Rodney sends me a tune, I load it in the FIC and take a video showing boost, a/f and rpms from a 3rd gear WOT run on the highway. Ill send him the video and he makes the adjustments accordingly and sends me another tune. We keep doing that until we get a good a/f. Its not the best way to do things but it works.

After watching numerous runs and looking at numerous tunes, I load all the data into Excel and I can see the changes in the FIC maps from tune to tune. Specifically A/F, boost and rpms. With these 3 parameters I can make the adjustments in the fuel map on the FIC. Its really not that hard once you get an understanding of how much each percentage point in the FIC cells changes the A/F.

So I grew a set of balls and started making my own adjustments to the a/f so I could really fine tune it. I did about 10 wot runs the past few days and kept making changes to the fuel map.

My last tune was around 8psi making about 340 to the wheels. I turned the boost up to about 10psi, worked off rodneys adjustments, made my own adjustments to fine tune the 10 psi map.

Heres a video of a 10psi tune. A/F low to mid 12's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNknQYMOnow

Im running pure meth now. So I put in bigger meth nozzles and did a few runs. The A/F dropped by a little more then half point throughout the entire rpm range. I turned the boost a little more to lean everything out.

This is what Im driving around with now. Boost gauge peeks at 11.4psi. A/F is high 11's low 12's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfB51jytt1E

I went to the dyno today to see where I stand. Boost gauge only showed a peak of 10.2 psi on the dyno. On the street I see 11+psi. So Im running a little more hp on the street then the dyno showed. The A/F on the dyno is different then my gauge shows. Probably b/c my sensor is much closer to heads then the tailpipe sensor the shop uses. Either way, A/F is good.

Best run 408whp 333tq



JandRperformance FTW. Thanks Rodney

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

HP aside, what was your torque before the new tune?

I would love to see what your car does against the 3.6 M90..

libert69

iTrader: (7)

About 280tq on the old tune with no meth

I dont even know anyone who has a s/c tl

I hate cars

Very nice!

You're seeing less boost on the dyno because it has less load on the engine. We had trouble on one of our large turbo/loose convertor cars even getting boost on the dyno.

I have a feeling your torque number is being thrown off a bit by the torque convertor. I would not be surprised if torque is near 400lbs.

Are you monitoring knock?? It's a must at this level especially if you're going to be playing around with the tune. Knock is the bottom line.

I will seriously contribute to your knock sensor fund or buy you a sensor depending on cost since it's around Christmas time.

Inaccurate

I would be proud to call you my son.





Finally. Congratulations !



More Congratulations !

libert69

iTrader: (7)

If Im actually making closer to 400 ft/lbs then why does the dyno fail to show that? What exactly is the converter doing to prevent that power from appearing on the dyno?

Ive seen the graphs from rodneys dyno and his hp and tq numbers are always close to each other.

I have the autoenginuity software and it has the ability to monitor knock. When I street tune the car I log timing and knock to see if the car is pulling timing while knocking. The data stream for the knock sensor never shows a change in the knock stream. Timing always stays the same on wot runs. Its always between 14 and 16 degrees.

Even on the dyno today, timing was between 14 and 16 degrees. I used 2 different scanners also to check the timing.

I know the meth is helping a lot to prevent detonation but I do find it highly unlikely that the car is not knocking at all. As we have seen, even a stock TL knocks in upper rpm range.

Maybe this software does not work with the TL's knock sensor. IDK

And to Inaccurate, I unplugged the battery today before I drove to the dyno so this would erase any learned knock patterns in the ecm. Timing was still the same.

As nice as that is, your knowledge that you have contributed to this thread is more than enough. I probably would not have bought this kit if it wasnt for you and Inaccurate contributing good factual information

Ive come a long way just from reading your guys posts

libert69

iTrader: (7)

THanks Dad LMAO

Researching the FIC was well worth the time and Im glad I did. Fine tuning your car really brings you and your car so much closer haha

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Another thing. With the use of the new map and few more psi, Im really starting to feel the torque steer now. With the old map I can honestly say there was very little torque steer. Full boost at 70mph you can really feel it. This is with the coilovers set to very stiff and a progress RSB. I really need to get the type-s FSB in there.

phee

iTrader: (5)

sway bar? your hitting boost while doing 70 AND TURNING?! Lol. nice job on the tuning. I have an fic with a boomslang accord (04) harness that's being offered to me for 250~ is this a good deal? (I'm NA) but will be moving to nitrous come spring

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Libert, I know the rear sway bars differ from auto to manual but does this apply to the front sway bar or what. I can't find any information on this.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

How are peoples turbo blankets working out? I am torn between the better spool and any damage from the turbo not cooling down right. As it sits I open the hood and let the car cool down when at home, the exhaust side is mostly 480-500 with 600 being the highest I have seen. The UCM is working wonders for me, I see huge convection clouds comming out in front of the windshield.

My other question is about boost controllers. I am looking to pick one up and wanted to hear from Bert or anyone else running a AEM or other electronic boost controller.

I hate cars

Yep. Base '04-'06 5at gets a 25mm hollow.
6mt of the same years gets a hollow 27mm.
TL-S gets a 27mm solid.

I believe the '07-'08 base models got larger swaybars (one or both) to try and make up for the softer springs.

I hate cars

The blanket won't help with spool, just for lower underhood temps. I would use one with a water cooled turbo with an electric pump to circulate after shutdown.

Using it without the pump probably won't hurt anything but unless you want to cut down on underhood temps or you have the turbo near vital areas, it's probably not necessary.

I can't help you with the AEM boost controllers but one huge thing to look for is a controller that keeps the wastegate shut until the last second or one that is adjustable in this area. Many controllers will start to open the wastegate way before max boost, hurting spool.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

Would it be even worth it to upgrade from a 6mt sway to type-s solid?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yup. also happens if Im doing 80mph and downshift to 3rd. pretty wild.

Is it the fic 6? A new Fic 6 goes for around 350. Plus a harness is atleast 100 I believe.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Like IHC's said, the blanket wont hurt spool. It just keeps the heat in. I can rest and leave my hand on the blanket even after the hardest of drives.

I always drive the car easy a mile or so before shutting down. Then I always idle for atleast 1-2 minutes, sometimes more.

As for the boost controller, I like the aem. Relatively easy to use and gets the job done. Rodney uses the aem as well.

Peak boost now is 11.4. 11psi doesnt happen until 5000-6000rpms. I can hear the wastegate start to open around 3700rpms when I do 3rd gear wot runs from 2500rpms at which time boost is around 8.5lbs

Does that sound right?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Videos of the dyno runs. A/F gauge typically reads richer on the dyno then the street. Thats why youll see high tens low 11s in these vids and high 11s low 12s in the other videos on the street. turn the volume up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpugY_hG6jU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2SfYKXIGGg

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Varying the duty cycle can change this but this is also where Rodney says be careful. Depending on the SPr input, you can overboost and boom.

This sparked my curiosity to look at the F/IC8 which has a built in boost controller. There is a map that you can input duty cycle based on various set conditions so you can fine tune the control.

Perrin also has a good explanation on how factory turbo ECU's control boost by varying duty cycle to achieve target boost levels.

Here is an excerpt from the AEM F/IC8 manual:

Boost Map (See Figure 41)
The F/IC8 has a pulse width modulated output that will drive the AEM boost solenoid (P/N 30-2400) at varying duty cycles based on the Boost Map. The values entered into the Boost Map are duty cycle values between 0 and 100%. The Boost Map load input can be based on TPS, Analog C, or RPM. When RPM is selected, the Boost Map has no load input. For a cell value of 30, the F/IC outputs a signal at 30% duty cycle. (Note: The solenoid output is 0% duty cycle for boost pressure less than 1 psi above atmospheric pressure.)
To aid in tuning, the F/IC software has user configurable boost solenoid “Start Pressure” and “Over-boost protection”. Both functions are configured in the “Boost” section of the “Setup” window, see Figure 42. The F/IC outputs a 100% duty cycle from 1 psi above atmospheric pressure until the “Start Pressure” is reached. The F/IC will output the duty cycle values in the Boost Map for pressures greater than the “Start Pressure” value. The “Start Pressure” value can be adjusted to minimize turbo lag.
Over-boost protection is enabled and disabled with the enable check box in the “Over- boost protection” section of the “Setup” window, see Figure 42. The over-boost conditions are also set in the “Over-boost protection” section.
The “Gauges” window contains an “Overboost” warning light and a boost valve error (Boost valve ERR) light. The “Overboost” light will illuminate when the overboost conditions in the “Setup” window have been met. The “Boost valve ERR “light will illuminate when the boost solenoid is disconnected or shorted.

I hate cars

That sounds right but you can significantly shorten spool time and the rpm to full boost. What you want is for the boost signal to be completely cut off from the wastegate below max boost or at least within 1 psi of max.

Many setups, in fact most setups start opening the wastegate early because factory internal wastegates barely have enough flow and opeining it early is the only way to prevent a boost spike where it overshoots and then comes back down. With your external Tial gate you should be able to start opening it only 1psi before max boost without it overshooting. With the pure meth you have a little room for error so I would figure out what to do to keep it closed longer. The boost should hit hard and go from 1psi to 11psi in less than half a second with the optimal wastegate settings.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

My SPR setting is 3.3. I am also using a 3lb spring instead of the 7lb spring that you are likely using KN.

I could certainly raise the spr setting and more then likely hit full boost by 3000-3500rpms instead of 5500 like I have now. But after talking with rodney about this, we feel that hitting peak boost that early in the rpm range could possibly start to break parts. My head snaps back in the seat now if go wot from 70mph which takes me to about 4500rpms at that speed. If I can hit 11psi early in the rpm range then I think im going to be spinning 3rd gear when I downshift.

On the other hand, I like to push the limits little by little. So Im going to start raising the spr setting in small increments to find a level that Im happy with. Full boost in the range of 4000-4500 sounds nice and Im sure it will increase my trap speed a decent amount also

KN, another thing I wanted to tell you is that on the aem boost controller there is a setting labeled ALA (alarm). Bring the psi level in this setting to 1 or 2 psi over your max boost will make the all the leds on the gauge illuminate telling you that you have overboosted.

Also, the boost solenoid will shut off if you overboost by more then 20% of your max setting in the ALA. I dont know if this works without connecting the grey wire from the boost controller so I have to look into it

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I have a 7lb spring but I also have the SPr set to 2 and have varied the duty cycle to set the desired boost. I noticed that playing around with it moves around the boost curve. If I can find a used F/IC 8 I am going to try it. The two connectors are identical to the 6 and the 3rd has the injector 7/8 along with inputs for crank sensors and the boost solenoid.

I've also used the alarm setting extensively when my hoses kept splitting on me. It is tough driving, looking at boost and being ready to back off to prevent over boost so I set it just over my target as you mentioned. It definitely shows you it went over and you have to reset it to regain control.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I take back that first statement after reading about the aem boost controller and how the spr settings work. It appears that whatever number you have in the spr setting, the wastegate will start to open 1psi below that value

So with my setting of 3.3, the wastegate is starting to open at 2.3psi. This setting of 3.3 was originally used with my first tune of 7-8psi. Since im pushing 11psi now, the spr should be raised a decent amount.

Ill be adjusting the spr settings slowly so I dont have any boost spikes.

I need to make some boost graphs

libert69

iTrader: (7)

So what spr setting are using now?
What was the highest spr you went too?
What is you max boost?
At what rpm do you reach peak boost?
What is boost setting? (Axx)
does boost come on gradually or one big burst up front?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'll try and get this info for you but I may not before garaging it for the winter.

Where did you find that info on the spr setting? It is interesting because the lower the setting, the earlier the boost comes on and is more gradual.

I haven't had a whole lot of time to play with it after I fixed my connection issues to the wastegate so some of my experiences are influenced by that.

With the boost controller, does the internal spring do anything?

I hate cars

You have a very good point. If you get it to start spooling lower down in the rpm range, torque is going to rise rapidly and the chances of breaking stuff will be increased. It's possible that it can raise octane requirements slightly but not for sure. I'm sure with the meth you're "over octaned" anyway but be careful.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

It was on the aem forums. One of the sites administrators who answers questions posted it a few times

Not exactly sure. But the size of the spring doesnt matter if you are using an electronic boost controller

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im spinning first and the top of 2nd second as it sits now. More boost in lower rpms might make the traction worse.

Ill also have to adjust the fuel map again if I start to make more boost at lower rpms.

I hate cars

It's been my experience (but not with a TL or the AEM controller) that a weaker spring and higher duty cycle tends to help spool.

Inaccurate

Wow. Top of 2nd...... that's evil

Gathering info (intelligence) for my project -

1) Your tires have plenty thread remaining (not bald)?
2) Will it break traction in 2nd on concrete (versus asphalt)?
3) How does TCS behave when it tries to spin in 2nd? Will the traction control flicker the yellow light? Can you sense the TCS trying to modulate the throttle to control the spin?
4) How is that situation with the trans refusing to upshift and hitting the rev limiter? How is this situation now with the higher boost?

Thanks

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

In the MT the TCS seems to let the car spin alittle before stepping in. It seems like as you are spinning the tires the TCS regains traction in a second and restores the throttle. It's hard to say since I instinctively lift especially in the upper rpm range. I rarely turn it off.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I could definitely agree with that after I start to play with the spr settings. After checking tials website, it appears that the 3lb spring is the smallest spring they make. Even with a 3lb spring and a duty cycle of 3.3 now, IMO the turbo spools very quickly.

Plenty of tread

I dont spin the top of 2nd (5000 and up) all the time. Usually depends on what speed i downshift to 2nd. Cruising at 30mph then wot typically keeps the tires planted. Downshifting to 2nd at anything over 35mph will spin the tires. the higher the mph the more likely Im going to wide up in a higher rpm range where there is more boost

I rarely leave traction control on anymore. But if I do lose traction with the tcs on, the light blinks but I cant really recall the behavior of the car after that since I rarely drive with it on anymore. Ill do a test run with it on and see what happens

There was a point about a month ago where the trans would not upshift from 2nd gear at wot anymore. It doesnt happen anymore.

Now Im always using SS to shift since it guarantees my shift will happen. Last week when wot from 3rd to 4th in auto mode, the sound of the trans shifting from 3rd to 4th on its own didnt sound right. I cant explain it but I didnt like it.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The MT is the same in 2nd. MAD power. I haven't played with the TCS button but I don't recall it ever pulling the throttle when I break the tires loose. Could be wrong though, adrenaline is pumping still. Haven't driven enough yet.

phee

iTrader: (5)

question about using these cars in a drag race. i noticed that a lot of guys let their cars bounce off the limiter at the top of 3rd gear towards the end of the trap; why is that?

I hate cars

Are you talking about the turbo guys, the 6mt guys or the stock people?

There are different reasons. In my car I'll stretch 3rd gear out through the traps because it would only be in 4th for half a second and I don't want the engine loading down in 4th at 30psi boost. I lose a little mph that way but it doesn't measurably hurt ET.

In the TL, I think Bert was shifting his auto manually and just using the limiter as the stopping point for the video but I may be wrong. Not sure what rpm the TL goes through the traps at. Sometimes in a 6mt it's better just to touch the limiter instead of making that last shift right as it's going through the traps.

phee

iTrader: (5)

I'm talking strictly boosted manual cars at the track. they bounce off the limiter for about the last half second of the race instead of shifting. someone said it was to keep boosting and propel the car but that doesn't make sense to me since my car feel like I hit the brakes when the limiter kicks in.

does the turbo continue to spool on those cars?

I hate cars

I can't think of any good reason why they would do that. I know in a FWD where tire spin is a major issue, setting it on the limiter in the first few gears will sort of limit spin until the vehicle speed can match the tire speed but not sure why they would do that at the end.

Once that thing kicks in, assuming there's no wheel spin, the car stops accelerating.

Again, the only possible explanation is if they're in a manual and are going to cross the line in less than a second. It may be one of the rare times it's better to hit the limiter than shift.

Maybe someone else who has done it can help out if I'm missing something.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I turned up the spr setting (wastegate crack pressure) to 5.00 from 3.30 at the beginning of the week. Remember, with the aem ebc the wastegate starts to open 1psi less then your setting.

I have not taken any videos for comparison but boost builds a little bit quicker in the early rpm range. My a/f also leaned out about .3 across the board taking me to a consistent 12.5ish. It was also nicer to not hear the wastegate dump screaming all the time with a little bit of boost lol.

Tonight I upped the spr to 6.00. Boost levels rise about the same as 5.00 but the a/f went leaner again to 12.7ish.

Also, with these settings Im not seeing any boost spikes either.

Testing was done while rolling in the 3rd gear. I need to do some pulls from a standstill to see if this is going to effect traction. If it does then i dont think Im going to adjust these settings permanently

So my plans are to check for traction in 1st and 2nd, turn the spr setting to maybe 8.00 or higher, see how fast boost builds, use the fic to datalog the boost and check for spikes. If everthing looks good then Ill need to readjust the fuel map which is the most work. Plus it puts a beating on the car with all the wot runs

I hate cars

You've come a long way with the tuning. It would be fun to compare one of the early videos with one of that latest.

Have you tried ziptieing the brake switch closed (pressed in) to see if this would allow you to powerbrake?