Turbo Kit for Acura TL '04-'08
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
#4441
Safety Car
I totally disagree. We have a shit load of empirical evidence. We have many members that broke ring lands with the blower and the HBP. Now, we have the turbo folks repeating the mistakes of the s/c guys.
I have monitored knock on my n/a TL. It pings like a banshee in 4th gear (5AT). And of all folks, you know very well how the oem TL pings in the summer.
I am just trying to help our forum. I trust that Bert knows that I have his best interest at heart. I want Bert and all other turbo guys to be successfully. I am really getting annoyed that everyone, include IHC now, wants to pretend that detonation is not important.
What was the very first thing that I did for my nitrous project? The very first thing was that I installed a knock monitor and confirmed that I could trust it to warn me of detention.
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
#4442
Burning Brakes
i spoke with bert earlier not happy about the failure ,but libert seems to be determined to know his car and get it where he feel pleased .We have spoken and we did go on the topic about the the pistons and there strength briefly when he made 400 whp dyno run ...
Ive said a lot of times that we have r&d this car with the help of some very good resources and with our testing the conclusion has left us to believe that, 380 whp is a safe level for the tl daily driver ,weve tested this and determined that our kits can be delivered with 380whp for a evryday use.
The oem pistons have reached ther limit at 450 whp + , the oem piston will not and cannot withstand these level and above ,at 11;1 compression and some boost in the mix the compression actually rises which create so much pressure which leads to the weakest link to break which is the oem pitons ,some may agree or disagree but this is definetly the case ,weve yet to see a rod failure all the way up to 20 whp short of 500 whp.
Ive said a lot of times that we have r&d this car with the help of some very good resources and with our testing the conclusion has left us to believe that, 380 whp is a safe level for the tl daily driver ,weve tested this and determined that our kits can be delivered with 380whp for a evryday use.
The oem pistons have reached ther limit at 450 whp + , the oem piston will not and cannot withstand these level and above ,at 11;1 compression and some boost in the mix the compression actually rises which create so much pressure which leads to the weakest link to break which is the oem pitons ,some may agree or disagree but this is definetly the case ,weve yet to see a rod failure all the way up to 20 whp short of 500 whp.
11-30-2010, 10:41 PM
#4443
Safety Car
The oem pistons have reached ther limit at 450 whp + , the oem piston will not and cannot withstand these level and above ,at 11;1 compression and some boost in the mix the compression actually rises which create so much pressure which leads to the weakest link to break which is the oem pitons ,some may agree or disagree ......
11-30-2010, 10:49 PM
#4444
Burning Brakes
absolutely not the piston failed for the reason when u start to turn that spring pressure crack to a different setting this changes the whole tune which shifts the power band and produces the power much earlier so now the car is producing way more much earlier in the power band and at that psi level everything needs to be tuned very careful if not the piston will be the first to go ...
if libert motor was knocking at 16 degrees of timing if im correct his oil report would have shown signs of metal parts or somehting of the sort correct me if im incorrect, like i mentioned some will agree some will disagree but workin with this car for over a year almost two.
if libert motor was knocking at 16 degrees of timing if im correct his oil report would have shown signs of metal parts or somehting of the sort correct me if im incorrect, like i mentioned some will agree some will disagree but workin with this car for over a year almost two.
11-30-2010, 10:52 PM
#4445
Three Wheelin'
Theres another thing you guys need to realize...knocking at different power levels has different outcome. While the TL knocks in stock form, yet it isn't severe enough to break anything, isn't the same as knocking while making 350+ whp. At a lower power level, all the knocking that happens, has been forgiving enough, even while it continues knocking. But that's not the case at higher power levels. It is not as forgiving when it knocks at over 350 whp, and it will take much less detonation to cause a catastrophe.
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
11-30-2010, 10:57 PM
#4446
Burning Brakes
if we are reading the graph properly we will see why you and libert had the same timing the red line represents throttlre, we will see either the car shifted at this point which caused a quick throttle dip as if you lifted of the throttle but ill say the car shifts at this point, been that you and libert graphs was at the same rpm which will let the timing increase as the throttle isnt depressed or at that point the ecu killed throttle to allow a quick shift.
11-30-2010, 11:16 PM
#4447
Safety Car
Just like with alcoholism, the first step is to realize that there is a problem. This is why a knock monitor is needed. Without a monitor, a person would never know that they have a problem......... well, other than the mechanic telling you after the damage happened from unchecked detonation.
Well of course not. The knock monitor is not a magic wand that makes detonation disappear. A person must take corrective measures to prevent the detonation. But first, a person must be made aware that they have a detonation problem ....... before the mechanic tells them.
I agree. This is why a monitor is needed.... to prevent a person from having detonation unknowingly for a long period of time until the piston fatigues.
All of this is covered in the introduction of the Knock Monitor (click here) thread. It boils down to the difference of being reactive versus proactive.
Below is the introduction of the Knock Monitor (click here) thread for those that are click challenged.
INTRODUCTION
If a person was experiencing knock with a normal family car, no real engine damage would occur. However, with a highly boosted engine (turbo, supercharger, or nitrous) under wot and full load, the engine will self destruct quickly.
If you have a highly boosted car and had a knock monitor to detect that the engine was knocking under boost, you would have the opportunity to remove your foot as quickly as possible off of the accelerator to hopefully prevent harming the engine. However with no knock monitor, you would discover that the engine was severely knocking only when the mechanic explains to you why you must replaced your blown-up motor.
The oem ecu uses a knock sensor to detect detonation. Knock must first occur, the oem sensor detects said knock, then the oem ecu *reacts* by retarding the timing. The main point here is that the oem ecu is reactive, not proactive.
When an engine is boosted to the limit (usually discovered in hindsight), all it takes is just one cylinder having a single power stroke with denotation to blow the whole motor. There is no margin (no luxury) to be *reactive* to any denotation.
If a motor is boosted to the limit, a person must be *proactive* to make sure that not even a single occurrence of detonation ever occurs. Not even for a fraction of a second.
This is why a Knock Monitor is important. A person needs to know if any denotation is occurring and retune the setup to prevent any detonation from ever occurring. That is, the denotation must be handled in a proactive manner and not in a reactive manner. To be proactive means preventing any denotation from ever occurring. Being proactive can only be done if a person is aware (via a Knock Monitor or other data logging) that denotation is occurring in the first place.
Just like your gauges, a knock monitor is commonly meant for daily monitoring. With a highly tuned engine, there are any number of things that could go wrong with the tune. The permanently mounted knock monitor is used to catch a failure that would cause the engine to begin to knock, even to the degree of engine damage.
One example of what could typically go wrong is purchasing some bad gasoline. Another example would be your water/meth tank ran dry or the injection pump failed. Or, the turbo was unable to control boost causing boost levels to soar.
Well of course not. The knock monitor is not a magic wand that makes detonation disappear. A person must take corrective measures to prevent the detonation. But first, a person must be made aware that they have a detonation problem ....... before the mechanic tells them.
All of this is covered in the introduction of the Knock Monitor (click here) thread. It boils down to the difference of being reactive versus proactive.
Below is the introduction of the Knock Monitor (click here) thread for those that are click challenged.
INTRODUCTION
If a person was experiencing knock with a normal family car, no real engine damage would occur. However, with a highly boosted engine (turbo, supercharger, or nitrous) under wot and full load, the engine will self destruct quickly.
If you have a highly boosted car and had a knock monitor to detect that the engine was knocking under boost, you would have the opportunity to remove your foot as quickly as possible off of the accelerator to hopefully prevent harming the engine. However with no knock monitor, you would discover that the engine was severely knocking only when the mechanic explains to you why you must replaced your blown-up motor.
The oem ecu uses a knock sensor to detect detonation. Knock must first occur, the oem sensor detects said knock, then the oem ecu *reacts* by retarding the timing. The main point here is that the oem ecu is reactive, not proactive.
When an engine is boosted to the limit (usually discovered in hindsight), all it takes is just one cylinder having a single power stroke with denotation to blow the whole motor. There is no margin (no luxury) to be *reactive* to any denotation.
If a motor is boosted to the limit, a person must be *proactive* to make sure that not even a single occurrence of detonation ever occurs. Not even for a fraction of a second.
This is why a Knock Monitor is important. A person needs to know if any denotation is occurring and retune the setup to prevent any detonation from ever occurring. That is, the denotation must be handled in a proactive manner and not in a reactive manner. To be proactive means preventing any denotation from ever occurring. Being proactive can only be done if a person is aware (via a Knock Monitor or other data logging) that denotation is occurring in the first place.
Just like your gauges, a knock monitor is commonly meant for daily monitoring. With a highly tuned engine, there are any number of things that could go wrong with the tune. The permanently mounted knock monitor is used to catch a failure that would cause the engine to begin to knock, even to the degree of engine damage.
One example of what could typically go wrong is purchasing some bad gasoline. Another example would be your water/meth tank ran dry or the injection pump failed. Or, the turbo was unable to control boost causing boost levels to soar.
12-01-2010, 12:26 AM
#4449
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I hope you feel better Matt!
12-01-2010, 12:27 AM
#4450
Theres another thing you guys need to realize...knocking at different power levels has different outcome. While the TL knocks in stock form, yet it isn't severe enough to break anything, isn't the same as knocking while making 350+ whp. At a lower power level, all the knocking that happens, has been forgiving enough, even while it continues knocking. But that's not the case at higher power levels. It is not as forgiving when it knocks at over 350 whp, and it will take much less detonation to cause a catastrophe.
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
I agree. I am for the knock monitor but its still not going to fix the problem as it will just give you another run or 100 out of its life because you saved it so much that time. We can't prevent it, but we can stop it as its happening. The point where we need to know what is happening and seeing where we get knock is where I feel it is needed. It is more for tuning and knowing what it can and can't handle and where to stay away from.
Like you said before about in 5th gear of AT it pings out of control, so you now know to slow down before it hits 5th gear or paddle shift down a gear when you want to race, but its not going to prevent the car over time detonating.
The stock TL pings and with any power, especially 350 whp, its going to happen but when? Next week or in a year because you were monitoring knock? We can't prevent it, but we can slow the process down a bit with the gauge.
Bert- I too have lost an engine last year from a crack in my throttle body and it hydro locked my engine. Threw a rod right through my block and made it look like salad. The cost to go from stock to after market is nothing because its needed. Your going the best way and as said before, while your in there build up the rods and possibly the retainers/springs or just have a 3.6 build and installed engine for around $4,500 with it making 309 WHP NA. Your going to spend around 2k and 3k if your having a shop do it, so why not get a beast of an engine for 1,500 more? It will have all brand new valves, timing belt and all of that which your engine doesn't have yet since you said the 105k service wasn't done. That engine is capable of handling a safe 8 PSI. 309 WHP with 4-6 PSI boost would make that car a beast. We now know the AT transmission can handle some abuse. PM me if you have any more questions about the 3.6.
12-01-2010, 12:27 AM
#4451
Three Wheelin'
Inaccurate,
I understand your point.
But monitoring knock, and lifting your foot off throttle to prevent any damage is the same as the ECM monitoring knock and taking away timing to prevent damage.
They're both reactive. In both cases knock has to occur for you to know, and for the ECM to know.
The only way I see doing this as safely as possible is, you need to tune a car while monitoring knock, and tune it to where it will not knock and stop there. All while allowing room for weather changes.
I understand your point.
But monitoring knock, and lifting your foot off throttle to prevent any damage is the same as the ECM monitoring knock and taking away timing to prevent damage.
They're both reactive. In both cases knock has to occur for you to know, and for the ECM to know.
The only way I see doing this as safely as possible is, you need to tune a car while monitoring knock, and tune it to where it will not knock and stop there. All while allowing room for weather changes.
12-01-2010, 01:04 AM
#4452
Team Owner
I want to start by saying I don't know why the Honda community is the absolute last to monitor knock? What has always oiled down the track on a Friday night.....turbo Hondas. I know that seems harsh but it's true. I've been to the pits after some of them let go and they never monitored knock and it blew my mind.
Everyone thinks the GN has a bulletproof bottom end. It's not bad but I blew several engines making less hp than Bert is making and one of them had TRW forged pistons. Now I'm running 602hp, 600lbs on the exact same parts and they've been reliable as hell. The only difference is I learned to tune and by the 3rd engine I had an annoying loud and bright knock detector (Kenne Bell) in the car.
The advantage I had was everyone already knew the stock bottom would go 10s no problem with a good tune so I knew it was my fault they were blowing. The J is in uncharged territory so some are content with saying "it blew because of the hp". Surprise surprise, it will still blow with the good forged parts if the detonation is not taken care of.
Bert's attitude has been great. I know he was looking to upgrade anyway so in a way it may push forward the upgrade. I just don't want to see it blow a year later with the good parts.
It's been proven that the J will fail with an unknown tune. Now the anti-knock monitoring guys will say see I told you so while we will do the same. I personally KNOW it's detonation just because I've been here so many times in the past.
I agree except for the part of me pretending that it's not important. I'm the last person that would say that.
Compression ratio means nothing, it's detonation and torque that matter. Compression only means you have to pay more attention to knock. Effective compression is what matters and I can promise you a turbo engine with an 8:1 static ratio is producing a much higher effective ratio than the turbo TL.
Agreed.
I've posted before how an oil analysis will not catch a huge failure like this. Been there done that. If you guys want, I'll pay for another analysis on the current oil to prove a point.
Very true. But if you're actively monitoring you can tune the detionation out so it only happens the one time.
Again, you have to know it's knocking in order to prevent it. It's extremely easy to tune around it. As long as it survives the initial event you pull timing, turn up the meth, etc so that it never happens again. For all we know, this TL could have been pinging every single time it was under boost vs only once for half a second if there was a knock detector.
What it comes down to is why would you not install a knock detector? There are all of these reasons why and no reasons not to. I would gladly trade the AF guage for a knock guage if I had to only get one. Not having one can cost an engine, not having the other will only cost performance.
Everyone thinks the GN has a bulletproof bottom end. It's not bad but I blew several engines making less hp than Bert is making and one of them had TRW forged pistons. Now I'm running 602hp, 600lbs on the exact same parts and they've been reliable as hell. The only difference is I learned to tune and by the 3rd engine I had an annoying loud and bright knock detector (Kenne Bell) in the car.
The advantage I had was everyone already knew the stock bottom would go 10s no problem with a good tune so I knew it was my fault they were blowing. The J is in uncharged territory so some are content with saying "it blew because of the hp". Surprise surprise, it will still blow with the good forged parts if the detonation is not taken care of.
Bert's attitude has been great. I know he was looking to upgrade anyway so in a way it may push forward the upgrade. I just don't want to see it blow a year later with the good parts.
Ive said a lot of times that we have r&d this car with the help of some very good resources and with our testing the conclusion has left us to believe that, 380 whp is a safe level for the tl daily driver ,weve tested this and determined that our kits can be delivered with 380whp for a evryday use.
The oem pistons have reached ther limit at 450 whp + , the oem piston will not and cannot withstand these level and above ,at 11;1 compression and some boost in the mix the compression actually rises which create so much pressure which leads to the weakest link to break which is the oem pitons ,some may agree or disagree but this is definetly the case ,weve yet to see a rod failure all the way up to 20 whp short of 500 whp.
The oem pistons have reached ther limit at 450 whp + , the oem piston will not and cannot withstand these level and above ,at 11;1 compression and some boost in the mix the compression actually rises which create so much pressure which leads to the weakest link to break which is the oem pitons ,some may agree or disagree but this is definetly the case ,weve yet to see a rod failure all the way up to 20 whp short of 500 whp.
I agree that you found failures with the oem piston. But, I disagree with your reasoning. In my opinion, it was not from combustion pressure. The piston failed from the intense shock and pressure caused by the detonation that occurred with that amount of boost and ignition timing.
absolutely not the piston failed for the reason when u start to turn that spring pressure crack to a different setting this changes the whole tune which shifts the power band and produces the power much earlier so now the car is producing way more much earlier in the power band and at that psi level everything needs to be tuned very careful if not the piston will be the first to go ...
True that making the power down low will increase cylinder pressures. But again, we're blind here with no knock detector. There are so many possibilities but without something to check the end result it doesn't matter.
if libert motor was knocking at 16 degrees of timing if im correct his oil report would have shown signs of metal parts or somehting of the sort correct me if im incorrect, like i mentioned some will agree some will disagree but workin with this car for over a year almost two.
True that making the power down low will increase cylinder pressures. But again, we're blind here with no knock detector. There are so many possibilities but without something to check the end result it doesn't matter.
if libert motor was knocking at 16 degrees of timing if im correct his oil report would have shown signs of metal parts or somehting of the sort correct me if im incorrect, like i mentioned some will agree some will disagree but workin with this car for over a year almost two.
Theres another thing you guys need to realize...knocking at different power levels has different outcome. While the TL knocks in stock form, yet it isn't severe enough to break anything, isn't the same as knocking while making 350+ whp. At a lower power level, all the knocking that happens, has been forgiving enough, even while it continues knocking. But that's not the case at higher power levels. It is not as forgiving when it knocks at over 350 whp, and it will take much less detonation to cause a catastrophe.
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
Point is, while I'm not against monitoring knock (anyone really should, including me), I don't think our case is as simple as just monitoring. It has to be a little more complex than that. You need to get rid of timing instantly at the very first sight of detonation, and most people honestly can't do that by just lifting off throttle. Like I mentioned, at such higher power levels, knocking is less forgiving, and lifting your foot off throttle might save you a few times, but can't last for long.
Obviously stock ECM doesn't get rid of it fast enough, and much worse at higher power levels, when it really needs to take away timing by a lot right away.
There needs to be another alternative
I agree. I am for the knock monitor but its still not going to fix the problem as it will just give you another run or 100 out of its life because you saved it so much that time. We can't prevent it, but we can stop it as its happening. The point where we need to know what is happening and seeing where we get knock is where I feel it is needed. It is more for tuning and knowing what it can and can't handle and where to stay away from.
Like you said before about in 5th gear of AT it pings out of control, so you now know to slow down before it hits 5th gear or paddle shift down a gear when you want to race, but its not going to prevent the car over time detonating.
The stock TL pings and with any power, especially 350 whp, its going to happen but when? Next week or in a year because you were monitoring knock? We can't prevent it, but we can slow the process down a bit with the gauge.
Like you said before about in 5th gear of AT it pings out of control, so you now know to slow down before it hits 5th gear or paddle shift down a gear when you want to race, but its not going to prevent the car over time detonating.
The stock TL pings and with any power, especially 350 whp, its going to happen but when? Next week or in a year because you were monitoring knock? We can't prevent it, but we can slow the process down a bit with the gauge.
What it comes down to is why would you not install a knock detector? There are all of these reasons why and no reasons not to. I would gladly trade the AF guage for a knock guage if I had to only get one. Not having one can cost an engine, not having the other will only cost performance.
12-01-2010, 01:33 AM
#4453
Safety Car
Thanks IHC 
Regarding the "except for the part of me pretending that it's not important. " I apologize to you for that comment. I was becoming a loose cannon
I just felt like I was the only one in this fight. But now ..... You're back
It is very frustrating to sit back on watch someone that you care about (Acurazine) harm themselves without saying something. And, it is even more frustrating when that person (Acurazine) just doesn't get the point.
Regarding the "except for the part of me pretending that it's not important. " I apologize to you for that comment. I was becoming a loose cannon
I just felt like I was the only one in this fight. But now ..... You're back
It is very frustrating to sit back on watch someone that you care about (Acurazine) harm themselves without saying something. And, it is even more frustrating when that person (Acurazine) just doesn't get the point.
12-01-2010, 01:34 AM
#4454
libert69,
Sorry to hear the news. Definitely get new pistons and drop them in. Aftermarket rods will run you about $1000-$1200 depending on where you get them from. I'd be curious to find out what the stock cylinders are capable of handling without the need of either a block guard or full sleeves.
When you're tossing numbers around, be sure to figure in the cost of:
- Crank and rod bearings - ~$150
- Timing belt kit - ~$200
- Gasket sets - ~$350
I've got parts lists and prices for everything that I've done so far. Ping me sometime if you need some additional info on what to get and what to watch out for.
Sorry to hear the news. Definitely get new pistons and drop them in. Aftermarket rods will run you about $1000-$1200 depending on where you get them from. I'd be curious to find out what the stock cylinders are capable of handling without the need of either a block guard or full sleeves.
When you're tossing numbers around, be sure to figure in the cost of:
- Crank and rod bearings - ~$150
- Timing belt kit - ~$200
- Gasket sets - ~$350
I've got parts lists and prices for everything that I've done so far. Ping me sometime if you need some additional info on what to get and what to watch out for.
Yes, those are OEM pistons.
Bert,
If you're considering forged lower compression pistons...
I got mine from Supertech. They were custom made, as at the time they didn't stock anything, nor did anyone for that matter. I doubt they stock anything now.
I sent them an OEM piston, and asked them for 9.5:1 compression, and that's all they needed. About a 6 week turn around time.
Cost was: $810-Pistons
$101-Rings (gas nitrided)
They might even still have my sample or a cut of the oem piston. If you're interested, call and speak to them.
Also if you missed it, the link Inaccurate posted along with pics of broken pistons, there's a pic of the Supertech piston.
Bert,
If you're considering forged lower compression pistons...
I got mine from Supertech. They were custom made, as at the time they didn't stock anything, nor did anyone for that matter. I doubt they stock anything now.
I sent them an OEM piston, and asked them for 9.5:1 compression, and that's all they needed. About a 6 week turn around time.
Cost was: $810-Pistons
$101-Rings (gas nitrided)
They might even still have my sample or a cut of the oem piston. If you're interested, call and speak to them.
Also if you missed it, the link Inaccurate posted along with pics of broken pistons, there's a pic of the Supertech piston.
I have been attempting to monitor knock with the autoenginuity software for the past month with no luck. Several days ago I had the head engineer on the phone while we tried different ways to get a reading from the software. There was no luck. If my blown ring land was b/c of knock, its 100% safe to say that this software does not work.
Finally.... we have IHC online.
IHC - Please hammer home to these people the importance of monitoring knock. I spent over an hour today going thru this thread reviewing how knock monitoring was treated during this entire thread. The subject was treated like a red-headed stepchild everytime the subject was brought up.
Now, we have the turbo folks in the same sinking boat as the s/c guys are in
I mentioned that Bert failure is most likely from detonation. And what do you see..... heads in the sand.
IHC - Please hammer home to these people the importance of monitoring knock. I spent over an hour today going thru this thread reviewing how knock monitoring was treated during this entire thread. The subject was treated like a red-headed stepchild everytime the subject was brought up.
Now, we have the turbo folks in the same sinking boat as the s/c guys are in
I mentioned that Bert failure is most likely from detonation. And what do you see..... heads in the sand.
Ive been guided by Rodney and his r&d people since day 1. Those guys have more time on these motors then most. If they are telling me that they experienced the same problem with a ring land failure before due to well over 550 crank hp, then I will say that was the reasoning behind my failure. But until we pull this thing apart we wont know for sure.
Rodney was also using the J&S safeguard too and he broke a ring land.
Can someone explain why only 1cylinder would have this problem and not the others? Like wrote yesterday, compression in all other cylinders is 160.
Assume the same scenario when your nitrous projects is up and running. You dont have anyway to fine tune the car right? I know your going to be using huge amounts of meth for fuel but what if your still gauge says your still knocking at that point. If it knocks once it will more then likely do it again under the same conditions the next time your wot. How do you plan to get around this?
absolutely not the piston failed for the reason when u start to turn that spring pressure crack to a different setting this changes the whole tune which shifts the power band and produces the power much earlier so now the car is producing way more much earlier in the power band and at that psi level everything needs to be tuned very careful if not the piston will be the first to go ..
The night I had the misfires (3 nights ago), I was really giving the car a beating. I turned the crack pressure up to 8.0. Wastegate stayed shut until 7psi.
I was launching from a standstill on 2 different times. Ill tell you this, My head snapped back in my seat like Ive never felt before. Zero traction in first and second gear.
I tried once with traction control on and it was a nightmare. I was bogging like a MOFO all through 1st and 2nd. Innacurate, please leave traction control off when using nitrous. It is not fun and not good.
All that power that I would normally feel at 5500 and up was no being felt at 3000ish.
To be honest, im glad I did these runs. I now know what can not be used on the TL. I hope others listen and dont mess the spr/wastegate crack setting.
Bert- I too have lost an engine last year from a crack in my throttle body and it hydro locked my engine. Threw a rod right through my block and made it look like salad. The cost to go from stock to after market is nothing because its needed. Your going the best way and as said before, while your in there build up the rods and possibly the retainers/springs or just have a 3.6 build and installed engine for around $4,500 with it making 309 WHP NA. Your going to spend around 2k and 3k if your having a shop do it, so why not get a beast of an engine for 1,500 more? It will have all brand new valves, timing belt and all of that which your engine doesn't have yet since you said the 105k service wasn't done. That engine is capable of handling a safe 8 PSI. 309 WHP with 4-6 PSI boost would make that car a beast. We now know the AT transmission can handle some abuse. PM me if you have any more questions about the 3.6.
Plans are this. Rodney has some extra blocks around the shop. His engine builder is going to make a set of pistons. Probably 9 or 9.5:1. He is going to re-build the block and send it to me with new pistons/rods etc.
I dont plan to turn the boost up anymore since 1st and 2nd gear are rather uncontrollable at this power level. Maybe down the line if I choose to go with a standalone ecu, we can adjust boost by gear and 3rd gear will get more power.
When I have the new block in my possession, Im going to install the same knock monitor Inaccurate has but Im leaving the oem sensor in place. Ill drill and tap the spot that Paul mentioned is a good place to put an aftermarket sensor.
12-01-2010, 01:55 AM
#4455
I posted this in the misfire thread. What is that stuff on the ground strap? I was able to pick it off with a knife. It was only on the spark plug from cylinder 6 where I had 0 compression.
Inaccurate, remember when you were concerned about "molten balls" on the ground strap with the zex plugs? If there was detonation this time with the ngk plugs, would there normally be "molten balls" on the plug?
Not the white stuff but the silver looking crud. This was before a wire brush
after a wire brush
Inaccurate, remember when you were concerned about "molten balls" on the ground strap with the zex plugs? If there was detonation this time with the ngk plugs, would there normally be "molten balls" on the plug?
Not the white stuff but the silver looking crud. This was before a wire brush
after a wire brush
12-01-2010, 02:07 AM
#4456
Team Owner
I don't know why only one tends to go. That's exactly how all 3 of my failures happened. One cylinder very low, the rest seemingly ok. It could be the other 5 were going to be right behind it or it could be many small things. A hotspot in that combustion chamber, slightly leaner (OEM injectors are usually +-5% which won't really matter much NA but under boost it takes away the safety margin. Many times when you're building it for high boost, most companies will have hundreds of injectors flowtested and placed in groups where they're all within 1% of one another.
I've always remained optimistic till the end even as I'm pulling the heads off the engine. It can always be a headgasket or tight exhaust valve.... Not likely considering compression went up after adding oil to the cylinder and your oil catch was fuller quicker than normal. One thing that was a little odd is 0 compression. You would have to have a severe piston failure to have 0 and that's usually indicative of a valve. Remember a long time ago when I said it sounded like you had valve float... Probably not it but you never know.
So from what I gather you had the knock monitoring hooked up but you never actually saw it knock to confirm the monitor was working? That's a dilema. You can't test it out but at the same time if you make it knock on purpose you may hurt the engine.
I've always remained optimistic till the end even as I'm pulling the heads off the engine. It can always be a headgasket or tight exhaust valve.... Not likely considering compression went up after adding oil to the cylinder and your oil catch was fuller quicker than normal. One thing that was a little odd is 0 compression. You would have to have a severe piston failure to have 0 and that's usually indicative of a valve. Remember a long time ago when I said it sounded like you had valve float... Probably not it but you never know.
So from what I gather you had the knock monitoring hooked up but you never actually saw it knock to confirm the monitor was working? That's a dilema. You can't test it out but at the same time if you make it knock on purpose you may hurt the engine.
12-01-2010, 02:23 AM
#4457
One thing that was a little odd is 0 compression. You would have to have a severe piston failure to have 0 and that's usually indicative of a valve. Remember a long time ago when I said it sounded like you had valve float... Probably not it but you never know.
So from what I gather you had the knock monitoring hooked up but you never actually saw it knock to confirm the monitor was working? That's a dilema. You can't test it out but at the same time if you make it knock on purpose you may hurt the engine.
So from what I gather you had the knock monitoring hooked up but you never actually saw it knock to confirm the monitor was working? That's a dilema. You can't test it out but at the same time if you make it knock on purpose you may hurt the engine.
Yes. Monitoring knock on my laptop but never saw any variation in the data stream. I found that extremely odd especially since n/a tl's knock already. But then I thought the meth was doing a great job of preventing detonation hindering the knock sensor from giving me any readings. IMO, I dont think the software works for the TL
I guess I missed this. I had the 105k service done with the timing belt, water pump, all the pully's etc. The only thing I did not do was the valve adjustment
12-01-2010, 02:24 AM
#4458
Safety Car
"When an engine is boosted to the limit (usually discovered in hindsight), all it takes is just one cylinder having a single power stroke with denotation to blow the whole motor. There is no margin (no luxury) to be *reactive* to any denotation. "
Assume the same scenario when your nitrous projects is up and running. You dont have anyway to fine tune the car right? I know your going to be using huge amounts of meth for fuel but what if your still gauge says your still knocking at that point. If it knocks once it will more then likely do it again under the same conditions the next time your wot. How do you plan to get around this?
I have three plans. Plan A is that I am able to run the full timing map with the methanol and super-cold nitrous keeping detonation away. Plan B is to throw water injection at it too. Plan C is to use my pseudo sensor to trick the ecu into retarding the timing about 6 degrees at all times except cruise.
I really expect for Plan A to work. The engine will be running off of equal amounts of methanol as gasoline (volume wise) roughly speaking. This is far more methanol than any injection system intended for tuning purposes. In the worst case where none of the plans worked.............. the nitrous is coming off of the car permanently.
Whoop !!!!! Please see if Rodney can drill and tap the hole for you since they have the proper tools for it (drill press).
12-01-2010, 02:59 AM
#4459
Safety Car
Out of curiosity after I told you about it, I did a google on the molten balls from detonation. I was shocked to find nothing on google. So, I don't know if this is something related to just detonation with nitrous or any form of detonation.
While searching the topic, everyone says to look for black pepper flacks on the white insulator. This is the same thing the magazines said back when I was younger too. I had never had any luck with looking for black specks on the plug.
In closing, I do not feel confident to comment either way regarding how to read detonation on plugs. The only thing that I feel sure about is if you do see molten balls (and I have when I ran nitrous when I was younger) then you for sure have detonation. But, this does not mean that no visible balls mean no detonation.
The crud is probaly caked on oil from the poor ring seal allowing oil into the chamber. OR, it could be water residue (calcuim minerails) from when you ran w/m. Not sure although.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 12-01-2010 at 03:02 AM.
12-01-2010, 07:28 AM
#4460
Burning Brakes
The jands safeguard and knock monitor was been used during our months of testing so no one is really avoiding the knock discussion or that it was not monitored it has been and with our findings it was not deemed necessary at the power level which the kit is offered since we are all forgetting about this which I even recommended since this topic has been addressed before . Just an advice for anyone that will be using these units this needs to be installed and tested on a dyno and fine tuned as this is where you'll need to get it perfect or else this can and will become a nitemare .
12-01-2010, 08:04 AM
#4462
Yes. Monitoring knock on my laptop but never saw any variation in the data stream. I found that extremely odd especially since n/a tl's knock already. But then I thought the meth was doing a great job of preventing detonation hindering the knock sensor from giving me any readings. IMO, I dont think the software works for the TL
If detonation was indeed the root cause of the failure, that will convince me that an independent monitor is the best solution as we all did for A/F.
When do you think you'll be tearing it down?
12-01-2010, 09:35 AM
#4463
Safety Car
A person installing a monitor, PROVIDED THEY DO NOT TOUCH THE OEM KNOCK SENSOR, will not be altering or effecting their current tune.
The knock monitor only provides feedback to let the driver know that detonation is or is not occurring. The monitor does not alter any of the tuning anymore than an A/F gauge does..
The monitor does not cause nor prevent detonation from occurring. The monitor simply lets the driver know if the detonation is there or not there.
However, I can see how this would be a problem if someone failed to verify that the knock monitor was working as intended to show knock. Then that person would alter their tune falsely thinking that they had no knock. This would be a nightmare.
When I first installed mine, I purchased cheap 87 gasoline to verify that the monitor worked. I had the advantage of having no turbo or s/c to worry about. I tested mine with just n/a. No more harm than someone getting a bad tank of gasoline.
However for someone that is boosted already, it is more difficult to verify that the monitor is working accurately to detect detonation.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 12-01-2010 at 09:37 AM.
12-01-2010, 10:45 AM
#4464
I'd just like to say best wishes Bert. I know losing and engine is pretty discouraging but something positive will come from it. I made a sweet coffee table out of my buddies blown B series.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor
as for the knock discussion: I know rodneys original tune (that comes with the kit) was done using a j&s unit. one knock was reached he retuned for a safe driving level, so knock was not ignored. it is up to the kit buyers to decide on knock monitoring if they choose to alter their tune and I would recommend going with a j&s because it's been proven to work.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor
as for the knock discussion: I know rodneys original tune (that comes with the kit) was done using a j&s unit. one knock was reached he retuned for a safe driving level, so knock was not ignored. it is up to the kit buyers to decide on knock monitoring if they choose to alter their tune and I would recommend going with a j&s because it's been proven to work.
12-01-2010, 11:23 AM
#4465
Team Owner
I'd just like to say best wishes Bert. I know losing and engine is pretty discouraging but something positive will come from it. I made a sweet coffee table out of my buddies blown B series.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor
as for the knock discussion: I know rodneys original tune (that comes with the kit) was done using a j&s unit. one knock was reached he retuned for a safe driving level, so knock was not ignored. it is up to the kit buyers to decide on knock monitoring if they choose to alter their tune and I would recommend going with a j&s because it's been proven to work.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor
as for the knock discussion: I know rodneys original tune (that comes with the kit) was done using a j&s unit. one knock was reached he retuned for a safe driving level, so knock was not ignored. it is up to the kit buyers to decide on knock monitoring if they choose to alter their tune and I would recommend going with a j&s because it's been proven to work.
Agreed. I totally understand Rodney's logic and it works just fine. Find the point of knock, back off the boost and it should be good to go without monitoring. Obviously Bert was fine tuning and jacking the boost up which is where the knock detector goes from recommended to required.
One thing I did want to get straight is I've never questioned the base turbo kit at all. It's solid and I have no question that it's totally reliable. Me personally I would still run the knock detection since all it takes is a faulty injector, bad fuel pump, bad gas, etc to do some damage.
12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
#4466
Three Wheelin'
I'd just like to say best wishes Bert. I know losing and engine is pretty discouraging but something positive will come from it. I made a sweet coffee table out of my buddies blown B series.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor.
do you think you can take the valve cover off cyl 6 and check where your exhaust valves are at? I mentioned they may be off in the other thread and I'm curious to see if this was a contributing factor.
It's very encouraging to think that a valve is the contributing factor, but I have very high doubts. A valve needs to be so off, to lose compression to the extent he experienced, and I don't see how that could've happened to his car. My guess is, #6 piston is severely damaged to the point of not only broken ring lands, but broken rings.
My hope is, he didn't severely score the cylinder walls beyond a hone.
12-01-2010, 11:36 AM
#4467
Burning Brakes
Hds scan tool will be here in on the 15th this should monitor all if not everything ,I'm sure this will make inaccurate and ihc much happier at ease to know ,but hopefully by then I'll have a standalone ready at an affordable cost I've been working on this for over 6 months very close to getting one in our hands for testing if all goes well this will be the solution we've been waiting for .
12-01-2010, 11:49 AM
#4468
Burning Brakes
I must say I'm very pleased with Libert attitude towards the situation very calm and just want to learn how to have it safe where he feels the power is pleasing ,which is helping with the growth of higher hp tune and reliabilty and more testing (for me not too happy as I definetly don't own a Tl more like a test car lol ) but anything to make these cars better and reliable I'm up for it ,and we will be helping Libert to get bac on the road even harder and faster than before ..
12-01-2010, 01:56 PM
#4470
Team Owner
Hds scan tool will be here in on the 15th this should monitor all if not everything ,I'm sure this will make inaccurate and ihc much happier at ease to know ,but hopefully by then I'll have a standalone ready at an affordable cost I've been working on this for over 6 months very close to getting one in our hands for testing if all goes well this will be the solution we've been waiting for .
12-01-2010, 02:58 PM
#4471
Safety Car
Whenever I am researching for my project, the thing that I read over, and over, and over, and over again is monitoring knock. All of the successful turbo people (Buick GN forum, EVO forum, WRX STI forum) treat knock monitoring as a life-or-death situation. Especially the EVO forum, those guys really know how to get major HP from a 2.0 liter engine. They will not drive their car without something to alert them of knock. And, they will not tolerate a single instance of knock either.
It has always been a mystery to me as to why the turbo has been magically avoiding the dreaded TL detonation destruction that the s/c guys know so well.
Again from the introduction of the knock thread - "Just like your gauges, a knock monitor is commonly meant for daily monitoring. With a highly tuned engine, there are any number of things that could go wrong with the tune. The permanently mounted knock monitor is used to catch a failure that would cause the engine to begin to knock, even to the degree of engine damage.
One example of what could typically go wrong is purchasing some bad gasoline. Another example would be your water/meth tank ran dry or the injection pump failed. Or, the turbo was unable to control boost causing boost levels to soar."
12-01-2010, 03:08 PM
#4472
Safety Car
I failed to make many of my points clear yesterday.
When I said that the topic of detonation was being ignored, I meant being ignored by Acurazine as a whole. I felt comfortable that Rodney checked for knock during his R&D.
Knock still needs to be monitored if anyone wants to get serious with their boost (s/c and turbo guys). You never know when something will happen to thru off that tune and cause detonation.
If you go thru this thread (do a search on this thread for "knock") and you will see that the topic got ignored by Acurazine members every time it was mentioned in this thread........ the topic of knock was drowned-out by the more popular topic of A/F settings every time.
Acurazine as a whole needs to learn the importance of monitoring knock. Even yesterday during my rants, Acurazine as a whole tried to rationalize it away by saying "Why worry about monitoring knock because we can't do anything about it".
12-01-2010, 03:17 PM
#4473
writing from my phone....replaying the sequence of events from the night of the first misfire.
prior to that night, a/f was spot on at high 11s, 12.0, 12.1. the night of the misfires, the a/f from 4600 to 6000 had increased to mid 12s and at one point it was touching 13.0...this was with a pretty big shot of meth also. turn that meth off and I bet it would be near 14.0
weather conditions were the same as the previous week. maybe even tad bit colder
I added fuel in the fuel map and the numbers went down a little bit.
bad injector? fuel pump reaching its max?
prior to that night, a/f was spot on at high 11s, 12.0, 12.1. the night of the misfires, the a/f from 4600 to 6000 had increased to mid 12s and at one point it was touching 13.0...this was with a pretty big shot of meth also. turn that meth off and I bet it would be near 14.0
weather conditions were the same as the previous week. maybe even tad bit colder
I added fuel in the fuel map and the numbers went down a little bit.
bad injector? fuel pump reaching its max?
12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
#4474
Team Owner
Another thought too... The J32 was not set up to run boost so you can bet it's piston to cylinder clearance and ring gap is not loose enough. IMO, even without detonation you want to stay out of prolonged periods of boost. Once you get those pistons good and hot, the rings can butt ends and pistons try to sieze up in the bore. I haven't seen many pictures of the failed pistons and the ones I have seen don't show evidence of heavy scoring but you never know.
Going to look up the J32 piston to wall clearance and ring gap.
Going to look up the J32 piston to wall clearance and ring gap.
12-01-2010, 03:27 PM
#4475
Safety Car
^^ I agree. I was doing some reading last night and it was mentioned often that the rings will push-out on the ring lands if the rings run out of gap. The ring has no choice but to crack the ring land to make room for the ring to expand.
12-01-2010, 03:33 PM
#4476
Team Owner
I've got to get rolling on my project. Once I start, I plan on an ultra quiet setup where it sounds just like a factory stock TL with stock exhaust until you hear the whistle. Since my tax lady got hauled away by the Feds I'm not sure what the financial situation is going to be like next year.
12-01-2010, 03:43 PM
#4477
Safety Car
IHC - Below are the specs. I have a pic, which I know you can't see at the moment from your location. So, I included the text too.
Piston Clearance in cylinder
New = 0.015 - 0.040 mm (0.0006 - 0.0016 in.)
Limit = 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
Top Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.35 mm (0.008 - 0.014 in.)
Limit = 0.60 mm (0.024 in)
Second Ring End Gap
New = 0.40 - 0.55 mm (0.016 - 0.022 in.)
Limit = 0.70 mm (0.028 in.)
Oil Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.70 mm (0.008 - 0.028 in.)
Limit = 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
Piston Clearance in cylinder
New = 0.015 - 0.040 mm (0.0006 - 0.0016 in.)
Limit = 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
Top Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.35 mm (0.008 - 0.014 in.)
Limit = 0.60 mm (0.024 in)
Second Ring End Gap
New = 0.40 - 0.55 mm (0.016 - 0.022 in.)
Limit = 0.70 mm (0.028 in.)
Oil Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.70 mm (0.008 - 0.028 in.)
Limit = 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
12-01-2010, 03:44 PM
#4478
I blew 2 engines, warped heads 3 times, broken tranny twice (my daily driver)...losing the engine once isn't all that bad, its part of the modding process...if not that, a tranny, if not that, something else..its all a process, especially with the mystery of our cars.
It's very encouraging to think that a valve is the contributing factor, but I have very high doubts. A valve needs to be so off, to lose compression to the extent he experienced, and I don't see how that could've happened to his car. My guess is, #6 piston is severely damaged to the point of not only broken ring lands, but broken rings.
My hope is, he didn't severely score the cylinder walls beyond a hone.
It's very encouraging to think that a valve is the contributing factor, but I have very high doubts. A valve needs to be so off, to lose compression to the extent he experienced, and I don't see how that could've happened to his car. My guess is, #6 piston is severely damaged to the point of not only broken ring lands, but broken rings.
My hope is, he didn't severely score the cylinder walls beyond a hone.
12-01-2010, 03:50 PM
#4480
Safety Car
Not to rub salt too much......... but this is one of the advantages of the NMI. All of my extra HP is from methanol fuel. And the methanol produces no heat (practically speaking). I am not burning any extra gasoline to produce heat.