Inaccurate

Hi speed & KN_TL,

Although your car is a 6MT, which has a much shorter 1st gear than the 5AT, I was wondering how much turbo lag you have.

When you punch it hard from a standstill, are you able to easily spin the tires?

Does your car seem to lack boost and power below 3500 RPM?

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Generally turbo cars like taller gears. This is assuming the minimum spool requirements are met with the torque convertor stall speed. The extra load of a taller gear will help it to spool quicker.

In my turbo car, if I was going from a moderate roll speed, maybe 55-65mph and my tires broke free just a little, I could tell because the boost would momentarily fall off a few psi since the load was reduced.

A tall first gear with a decently high stall speed would be an awesome combo. However, the 6mt may be better because the shorter gearing can mask the spool issues.

phee

iTrader: (5)

once again, in case nobody saw my post. what about a launch control device that causes misfires to build boost?

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The "pop bang" method lol. It's cool looking and I've always thought about trying it on the street just to freak people out.

This one is just too harsh on the turbo. Even rally car teams admit it cuts turbo life in half but it's worth it in racing.

I've seen it done several ways. One is to have an injector in the exhaust before the turbo that injects fuel. Some use a spark plug to ignite it, some don't.

Some have the engine go super rich on decel with misfires.

The real issue is you're igniting unburned fuel in the exhaust which slams on the turbine wheel and you have to have stronger (thicker) exhaust pre-turbo.

This TL does not have a huge turbo. It will spool with the correct convertor and the correct AF and timing.

They need to get what they have running correctly first and then see how it spools. That 10:1 AF at spool is hurting them. I don't want to suggest it but I've personally had the car go 15.5:1 on spool and then richen back up as boost hits.

*If* they can get timing retard on spool, the turbo TL is going to be a tire smoking machine.

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

maybe for test & tune, in a real race, he would have been left at the light... ijs

pass427

The if we all know has been long overcome regarding timing been removed from the Tl ,I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried but 10 degrees of timing may be suitable for bigger motors or big boost car but as far the Tl is concern 10 degress of timing in this car might as well take the motor put and push it thru the quarter mile ...timing can be romoved in rpm range of the Tl which can be verified thru scan tool ,leaning out the transition into boost might help which I'll give to Libert to test...on a second note in the tunes we do leave a bit rich mixture which is for a bunch of reasons found out during testing which has helped the turbo tls running running a dead on tune is great on a standalone but with a piggy back to what we've seen we leave room just incase a bad tank a gas just anything of course 10:1 is not what I'm reffering to as that is purely rich which I've fixed for Libert in the 3k range now I'll try to see how it performs from a standstill with the mixture leaner until 3k rpm ...

phee

iTrader: (5)

possible to do a 12.7 during transition and maybe a 13 from 1k-2.5?

pass427

I'm pretty sure it is I'll send an adjusted map to Libert and have him see how it is ..

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I have very little lag off the line, pretty much full boost from about 2700-3000 rpm range. My issue is the tune pulling too much timing as the car goes into boost.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

As far as spinning from just TQ no, but any semi aggressive launch will wheel spin till the cows come home. The engine hits boost so quickly and my on boost tune is off so that helps with traction and keeps the car from pure TQ wheel spin. The engine seems to like 4-5 gear, just extream acceleration, from 3k up especially in 5th gear. Once I get my data logger issues delt with I'll have some amazing hi mph acceleration.

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Whoa lol, I didn't mean to run 10 degrees of timing for the 1/4 mile. You would have a molten pool of metal where the engine used to be.

You would only do 10 degrees on spool up and then go to the normal timing for full throttle. That's why I was saying to use load vs throttle position to determine when to retard the timing that much.

For example if the ECU sees 100% throttle but 0 boost, it would retard the timing until either the throttle moves away from 100% or a preset boost level is reached.

This may not be possible with the TL's ECU but if it works, you're going to literally have instant spool. The only issue as I said is anything on the exhaust side of the engine starting at the exhaust valves will heat up in a hurry. You only want to do this for a second or two.

Even if you could back the timing off to say 15 degrees and get the AF to 13:1 it would make a world of difference in spool.

First step is to correct the actual problem which is the 10:1 AF and go from there.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Dave_B thanks for all the suggestions

Would a higher stall converter even matter if I still cant build boost from powerbraking?

IHC, what is a grainger valve and what does it do?

"If you want the best spool, go with a lighter wastegate spring and bring up the duty cycle on the boost controller if you're running an EBC."...I will pass the info along to Rodney

Majofo...Is that vid of 12sec TL an Auto? I saw the comments and people said he has a 65 shot. That is my last option to get me off the line.

Tunable map? Are you talking about the closed loop fuel enrichment? If so then Rodney figured out how to adjust the a/f for closed loop using the fic and skewing the voltage to the O2's. He sent me 2 videos of partial throttle driving with boost showing the a/f in the mid 12's. Im waiting for him to pass the info along to me so I can make the adjustments.

Here are 3 data logs I made all launching from a standstill with NO powerbraking. Just foot off the brake and pedal to the floor. The last log labeled "launch with video" is from the video posted below. Traction control was ON for all 3 logs



direct link to download http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1...comparison.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPzqOvsbW8Y

phee

iTrader: (5)

slightly OT but does it look like you only have a throttle cut from gear1 to gear2?

pass427

Lol you know for a fact that we've listened and value all your opinioins and suggestions ,I totally understand your point I've even tried this on my car with timing retard into boost but with that low of a setting no good but ,what I'll do is let Libert try a few different settings including your suggestions and see how it goes so this week will be our testing week if liberts is up to it ,I do however have a bit busy week getting ready for jdm south fl meet so I'll try my best to do it this week if not Monday I'll dedicate my time to get this going ...

Majofo

It's a 6MT if I remember correctly. But even for a MT that 60' was pretty good. I can't find the thread but that guy is on the forum. His 12 sec run was on the bottle with a 1.9s 60' the 2.057 run is without the juice (first timeslip at the end of the vid). I'm pretty sure his front tires are DR's. Yeah I was talking about bmeyers closed loop PIC project.

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Looking forward to the results.

I'm confident the spool issues will be resolved. This turbo is ideal for the engine size and flow characteristics. This is exactly what I would have picked for myself if doing a turbo that had enough headroom for 550whp.

Between the timing, AF, wastegate management, and powerbraking it will come around in time.

IMO, powerbraking NEEDs to be addressed. There isn't an automatic turbo car out there that will leave the line hard without powerbraking short of using the pop bang method. The other thing I'm afraid of is that the stall speed flat out is too low with the stock convertor. IMO, 2,500rpm is the low limit and 2,800-3,000 would be ideal. Maybe once the other issues are taken care of, the stall speed will come up a bit.

Out of curiosity, what did you experience with timing retard on spool that you didn't like? Even a moderate retard would help.

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I forgot, Bert.... A grainger valve goes inline with one of the wastegate vacuum lines. It completely shuts off the boost signal to the wastegate until a preset limit is reached. It's just a simple ball valve with spring. It keeps the wastegate from prematurely opening as boost builds. Many times the wastegate will begin to crack open way before full boost.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

This thread is confusing, in large part because I have no idea what IHC is saying. Probably because my lack of knowledge on cars.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm experiencing the same. 2nd gear will easily break the tires and it does pull like crazy in 4-5 as Hi Speed says.

I am starting to have clutch issues so very low speed/standing start isn't possible right now. It almost acts like I have the check valve in again and I am hoping that an adjustment will milk a few more miles out of it.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I let off the gas after 2nd gear

Thats a nice 60'. I hope to get there. Bmeyer seems to be moving very slow with his closed project. He is still using a seperate box that is a piggyback to the fic. A piggyback to a piggyback. I like the idea of using the fic to control everything.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

If nobody can figure out how to build any boost off the line with the auto TL, then is a higher stall converter pointless?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I thought this was interesting. The RDX can build a little boost by powerbraking. Notice the small center gauge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgi9ALZ6Vlg

TLdream

iTrader: (4)

That probably has to do with the size of the turbo.

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Nah, that would be because the ECU allows 100% throttle and the TL won't even let it hit 0 vacuum.

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I wouldn't say pointless but I definately wouldn't put as much weight on it.

It will still help from a dead stop. Imagine if your rpms hit 2,800rpm instantly the second you hit the throttle. Even before boost hits the car will be much stronger off the line.

phee

iTrader: (5)

i have been reading that AEM sells an anti lag system. possible with the fic?

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

Idk if it was mention or not. But a 2step system? That's what I'm putting on this week (03 cl-s6)

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Can't do it on the auto.

pass427

^^Ihc the timing retard was done on my car for testing quite a few different times and the car would not respond just staight fell on it's face , but seeing that we have major players like you and inaccurate and phee I'm sure we will get this sorted out I haven't even gotten a chance to send Libert any new maps as I'm swamped this week but I'll have a lean transition map for him no later than Monday ..

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Can't wait to see how it responds with the lean transition map. I have high hopes.

Something else has to be going on with the timing retard and falling on it's face. Were you pulling it for spoolup and then putting it back in once the boost hit? Leaving it out all the way through would make it fall on it's face of course.... But pulling it just on spool should make it spool much quicker unless something else is at play.

I have a feeling first gear in the 6mt will not put enough load for the turbo to spool properly which is fine, I'm sure traction is more of an issue than spool. The 5at's longer first gear is actually a positive thing assuming stall speed is high enough and you can make powerbraking work.

pass427

I can do a video of 6 Sdp launch if that would help ....

libert69

iTrader: (7)

A+++ for Rodney really helping me out here.

Heres a vid with the new tune to help me off the line better. Its definitely an improvement over the old tune but theres still some hesistation from 2500 to 3000 which is really hurting me.

This is the original tune. Notice the 10.0 a/f off the line all the way to 3000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPzqOvsbW8Y

Heres the graph from the original tune




This is the 1st run with the new tune. Heres the a/f breakdown
13.2 at 1500
11.9 at 2000
14.4 at 2100
15.2 at 2500
14.0 at 2600
13.2 at 2700
12.6 at 2800
12.0 at 2900 making about 2psi at 3000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc4WEDgbh0k

Heres the graph from that run.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Heres a vid while powerbraking with the new tune. At this moment, gas to floor without powerbraking works much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69LtOxnMa54

Inaccurate

Hi Bert,

Question. The graph from that video shows the rpm peaking at 4250 on the graph. However in the video, your tach shows 6750+.

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The spool is actually really good for just stomping the gas. With the right torque convertor and powerbraking this thing would scream.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

I thought about this too. I let off the gas around 5000rpms but there was some major wheel spin when I got over 30mph. If you check the video at the end, youll see that the the speedo hits about 40mph but backs down to 35 when I let off the gas. Maybe that has something to do with it?

I did change all the polling intervals to the correct time as per your instructions

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Hopefully we can lean out 2500 to 3000 to 14ish and there wont be any hesitation.

Still open for ideas on how to trick the ecu so I can powerbrake with boost

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Just wondering, are you still using meth and if so, what's the trigger point? If not, is the MAP sensor getting it's signal right off of the intake mani or is it somewhere upstream?
Most cars use more than one brake switch. One dedicated to the brake lights and one for the ECU. What happens if you powerbrake from a roll, will it still limit throttle?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

yes im still using the water/meth. The trigger point is 3psi

I can build boost while powerbraking from a roll. I can basically get to 7 plus psi and my max boost is around 8.5

brake boosting at 60mph in 3rd gear really gets you moving

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You may try raising the trigger point to 4psi. Sometimes the hobbs switch or MAP sensor for the kit can be off by a lb or two and it may be causing the rich spike.

I'm assuming the brake switch is a normally on switch. Instead of unplugging it, you probably need to remove it and ziptie or rig up a way keep the switch off. The only way this would not work is if the ECU uses the VSS too.

One caution, I wouldn't use the cruise control since it won't release the throttle if you have to hit the brakes suddenly. I'm sure shifting to neutral would disable it. Don't know how the brake assist would work either not that it matters much.