libert69

iTrader: (7)

The only comparison I did was with 2 wot runs in 3rd from 60-100mph. One with 8psi and one with 11psi. The 11psi run gets to 100mph when the 8psi run is at 95mph. 5mph faster

Also, the launch is much better now since we kept the a/f at 14 up to 3000 instead of pegging 10.0 at the line.

I have time tomorrow so Im going to play with the brake pedal switch.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Bad news for the TL. This is same post from my misfires thread

I was getting misfires only while idling. Did the prelim stuff. Cleaned plugs, swapped coils etc.

Then I did a compression test

Cylinders 1-5 were all around 160psi +/- 3 and held consistently. No leaks

Cylinder 6 had 0. Yes Zero. I put a little oil in the cylinder and re-tested. Compression was 30psi and held. Misfires on cylinder 6 only after I drove home.

I should of known something was going on since last week b.c my catch can had filled up EXTREMELY quick. It is a small can and usually takes about a month to get 1/2 full. It took about a week to get 3/4 full.

So I guess we are looking at a cracked ringland. This would explain why the vacuum didnt change.

I guess we atleast know the limits of the pistons on a j32 now. Ill definitely blame this on my increase in boost making well over 400whp. Figure 20% drivetrain loss and we are looking at close to 500 crank hp. No problems for 3 months prior to this with 350 to the wheels.

So Im deciding on my options. Do I swap in 6 new oem pistons and turn the boost down? Honestly, I really dont want to. I want to go up, not down

So I think for the time being the car will be out of service until I get a set of custom pistons from Rodney

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

My one concern was the way you retuned it. Defiantly don't go back. You put so much time/money and energy into this car so build it up stronger since the fixed cost (NEW OEM parts) is needed anyway.

Inaccurate

Sorry to hear this Bert.

Please check the V6 forum. They have a wealth of info on building-up the J engine with performance parts.

Copy and paste this link into your browser.

Acurazine blocks this link.
So, this is why I must disguise it with the red X.

Remove the red X before submitting.
http://www.v6Xperformance.net/forums/

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Why? Rodney and I have been tuning the car that way since the turbo was installed. IMO the street is better then the dyno since you get real life conditions plus load

libert69

iTrader: (7)

ehh it sucks but you gotta pay to play. About a week (before the problems) I had my mind made up that I wanted new custom pistons. This speedbump just makes it happen faster.

AckTL05

iTrader: (18)

You can only street tune it so much before a dyno is needed to fine tune it. With that much hp I wouldn't feel comfortable with a street tune. It's more about what you tuned it with, a laptop can only tune so much. I'm tired so I can't compile my thoughts into words.

Inaccurate

Torque breaks parts not HP.

Back on page 54 of this thread, Rodney said he made 470 ft lbs of torque with oem pistons.

During Bert's most recent dyno test, Bert made 333 ft lbs torque.

Many people say that ring land breakage is usually from detonation.

Could this failure had been from detonation?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

To be fair to Rodney, since I dont think many people know this, Rodney doesnt drive his car around with 479whp and 470tq. I believe he made those pulls on the dyno just a few times for a car show down in florida and thats all.

He is putting a set of custom pistons in his car right now along with some other work. Hes told me many times that through their r&d, once you get past the 400 mark with hp/tq you will see failures. Its only a matter of time

Ive probably done 30-40 wot pulls in the past 2-3 weeks with the higher hp tune. Not to mention 127000 miles.

I still wont rule out detonation until we get in there and can look at everything

Inaccurate

I took that into consideration. Although Rodney may had done just one dyno pull, there is a HUGE difference between 333 and 470 ft lbs of torque.

If those pistons can survive one dyno pull under the stress of 470 ft lbs torque, those pistons should live indefinitely under 333 ft lbs of torque.

But detonation is like tooth decay. It takes time to cause damage *sometimes*. I could see how the piston could survive one dyno pull with some detonation, but the piston could not survive with long-term detonation rattling it until metal fatigue occurred.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear about that Bert. What's your plan to rebuild?

Since you didn't get any knock data, now it has me thinking, get the HDS/HIM or a standalone knock device.

D-Rob

I don't post a lot here, but I dyno tune Honda's/Acura's primarily for a living.

Your compression test results certainly do match up with your ringland theory.

The pistons in the J32 (TL, at least) should be just as strong as any other Honda piston, to be honest. They share similar skirt and ringland dimensions with the K-Series/F-Series engines; engines that on a regular basis make 250+whp/liter.

A 3.2 liter engine making 400whp is only making 125whp/liter, and only 66whp/cylinder.

Are you sure you did not get a bad batch of gas?

Also, you're running meth, correct? Where is your nozzle located? Something I don't think a lot of TL owners have thought about concerning methanol is the intake manifold's distribution.

It's a shame Hondata doesn't have a FlashPro-like tuning solution for newer OBD2 J-Series cars. It would make all this a LOT easier.

- Derek

Inaccurate

Derek,

Here are three post from this same thread showing how we thought it would be best to position the methanol nozzle(s). Do you agree with the logic in these linked post?

Also, any know issue with nitrous distribution problems with the manifold, provided that the nitrous nozzle is placed in the CAI approx 18 inches before the throttle body?



Link 1 (click here)
Link 2 (click here)
Link 3 (click here)

D-Rob

I retract my comment!

The logic you're using is very good. Disregard that comment.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Rodney should be on here later to comment. But I just found out that he too has blown a piston as well. Himself and his r&d team firmly believe the pistons are the weak link. But I wont rule anything out until I can get into the block


Forged pistons at 10.0:1 compression definitely. If the price is right then forged rods as well. Valve train can be left stock since I never see past 6800.

Ill be trying out the HIM unit eventually.

I doubt it was bad gas but who knows. Always 93oct from the same place. Plus pure meth set to spray as early as 3psi with full load at 7psi at 500ml/min. Even if it was bad gas I think the meth would more then make up for the lack of octane

Regarding distribution, 2 nozzles at 3 and 9 oclock about 6 inches from the TB

Inaccurate

Since we are on the topic of nozzle placement again, I would like to add this.

From the reading that I have been doing lately, many pure methanol (not water methanol) users have found better results from placing the nozzle much further away from the throttle body. The theory being that the additional distance gives the methanol more time to evaporate and to cool the incoming air.

Bert - If the opportunity presents itself, maybe reposition your nozzles further away from the TB.

Inaccurate

Hummm...Rodney also has no direct knock suppression or knock monitoring either

It has always been a mystery to me as to why the turbo has been magically avoiding the dreaded TL detonation destruction that the s/c guys know so well.

Whenever I am researching for my project, the thing that I read over, and over, and over, and over again is monitoring knock. All of the successful turbo people (Buick GN forum, EVO forum, WRX STI forum) treat knock monitoring as a life-or-death situation.

Knock Monitor (click here)

Inaccurate

Looks like Opel was right

Back on page 51 (click here) of this same thread, Opel predicted ring land failure before anything else. Opel has the experience to know too. With his s/c, Opel has been thru several engine rebuilds. But, Opel didn't monitor knock either



Derek - Here are some pictures of the oem pistons in the TL. Does the ring lands look like what you thought? The lands appear to be beefy, right?

Opel

^^^^^ those look like my pistons ....Inaccurate, you're a monster with INFO lol
I couldn't even remember posting these pics up until now!

Inaccurate

I found this quote too. Nothing personal Opel. We are just trying to learn so that we can advance along the J32 learning curve.

Majofo

I that the top ring land on the OE piston was much narrower.

Opel

No, of course nothing personal lol.
You should also know that, I'm probably the only one that's a lot less prone to any knocking... 9.5:1 CR.
I'm not making excuse for not monitoring knock...but at the time I did all that, it's where I stopped doing anything, and that's when I said, I wasn't monitoring knock.

Inaccurate

Opel,

The pics above are the *oem * TL pistons, right?

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

libert69,

Sorry to hear the news. Definitely get new pistons and drop them in. Aftermarket rods will run you about $1000-$1200 depending on where you get them from. I'd be curious to find out what the stock cylinders are capable of handling without the need of either a block guard or full sleeves.

When you're tossing numbers around, be sure to figure in the cost of:
- Crank and rod bearings - ~$150
- Timing belt kit - ~$200
- Gasket sets - ~$350

I've got parts lists and prices for everything that I've done so far. Ping me sometime if you need some additional info on what to get and what to watch out for.

bmeyer

iTrader: (3)

IMO, get the J&S. You've taken the time to meticulously prep the rest of the car, don't cheap out on this. Figure ~$250-$300 for a decent knock monitor... that's already 1/2 the cost of a knock management unit. An additional $300 isn't much considering the cost of an upgraded rebuild is >15x that.

It's a pretty easy install once you already have an ECU extension harness.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Hey bmeyer! It's been a while since we've seen you here.

I think you're right. I was going to spend a couple hundred on a HDS and then needed another $400 or so for a new LCD to install a carputer. With that I can get the J&S.

There are so many other things I want to do as well........need to start playing the lottery or something

phee

iTrader: (5)

I've got a lilliput 7 inch that I used in my carputer. shits tight. I'm looking to get a dd nav now so u can have it for cheap man. maybe even trade Fpr some parts?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear about the ring lands Bert. Keep us updated on what this is going to cost, I'm considering picking up an engine and doing the same. Mixing race gas and having to go to the same station for all my gas (the one that sells 100 octane) is becoming a pain.

Opel

Yes, those are OEM pistons.

Bert,
If you're considering forged lower compression pistons...
I got mine from Supertech. They were custom made, as at the time they didn't stock anything, nor did anyone for that matter. I doubt they stock anything now.
I sent them an OEM piston, and asked them for 9.5:1 compression, and that's all they needed. About a 6 week turn around time.
Cost was: $810-Pistons
$101-Rings (gas nitrided)

They might even still have my sample or a cut of the oem piston. If you're interested, call and speak to them.
Also if you missed it, the link Inaccurate posted along with pics of broken pistons, there's a pic of the Supertech piston.

tenzingsherpa

libert im sorry for what happened to you . definately build up your engine, and might as well throw some rods like u mentioned while u have the block open.

^^NICE INFO OPEL . how much psi would u say the supertech pistons & rods handle with the CR u stated, and how about 10:1 CR? since i will be doing my turbo build i will be going 500+hp(800hp being my goal) and forsee myself needing even stronger pistons than the oem rl pistons & rods i have & sleeves. to libert make sure to get some darton sleeves as well because i've heard these cylinders are prone to walk.

Opel

I wouldn't base their strength on boost levels, but assuming higher boost levels equal higher power....whatever power 42 psi may have contributed to (id imagine quiet a bit, at least more than what we're dealing with), its what they've tested them at.

Its not a particular CR piston that has different test results. Its the manufacturing process on said pistons. Whether you get 11.0:1 or 8.0:1 CR pistons, wouldn't matter. In the end, its the power they can withhold that matters.

As far as your question about 10.0:1 CR...well with your power levels, or what you're trying to accomplish, I would go lower than 10.0:1

Few points of drop in CR, can easily be compensated with a few lbs of boost, and to add the better benefit of having some more room for error.
If you're boosting a lot, you don't need high CR.
There's a few high end cars with CR in the 8s, and make shitload of power.

I'm saying all this because I know how some people may feel about dropping CR to 8-9...as if they're giving up power. And it's not quiet true. Lower CR enables you to run even more aggressive ignition timing, even if you kept boost at the same level, and not to mention the option of upping your boost levels. Another thing is, high CR pistons tend to be dome shaped, and dome shaped pistons don't like boost much. I don't wanna go into much detail here but flat or panned pistons are the better choice. I say this because, even at the CR that our cars have, if the piston design was somewhat flatter, I'd bet anything that they'd withstand what we've experienced, better.

If you're going to shoot for the power levels you say, then I would not get anything above 9.0:1, ideally 8.0:1-8.5:1

I hate cars

Was knock being actively monitiored?

Inaccurate

Finally.... we have IHC online.

IHC - Please hammer home to these people the importance of monitoring knock. I spent over an hour today going thru this thread reviewing how knock monitoring was treated during this entire thread. The subject was treated like a red-headed stepchild everytime the subject was brought up.

Now, we have the turbo folks in the same sinking boat as the s/c guys are in


I mentioned that Bert failure is most likely from detonation. And what do you see..... heads in the sand.

Inaccurate

no !!!!

I hate cars

Dyno tuning is only to get it into the ballpark. The fine tuning has to be done on the street.

Inaccurate

answer -

Inaccurate

Amen. After reviewing this entire thread today, the only thing people care about is the AFR. Knock monitoring????? Why do we need that???

Inaccurate

Interesting -

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

atleast it happen in NY not NJ bro!

its pretty awesome u have the "pay to play" mentality. not many people have that outlook.

I hate cars

I'm really sorry. I saw this when it happened but I've had the flu so bad that last post was about the most intelligent thing I have to offer lol.

I also highly respect Bert and everything he's done so I didn't want to step on any toes. I'm very disappointed one because I know what it's like to lose an engine and two we still don't know at what torque level the J32 pistons give up because knock has not been monitored. If there was monitoring going on I would be glad to throw in the towel and say everyone was right, that the J32 can't take boost but I can't say that.

There's nothing more important than knock. Nothing else can destroy an engine, all the other factors can do such as boost level and AF is cause it to knock. The possible cause of knock is not as important to monitor as the knock iteslf.

What everyone needs to understand is knock can more than double cylinder pressures. If the car was making 400lbs it's going to have the equivalent of 800lbs of torque on everything.

Even on my engine that's built for boost, I don't go above 17psi without knock monitoring even though I know it can be run at 30psi with no knock.

What we have now is still an unknown. Since knock has never been monitored on a J32 we are still just as in the dark as we were 2 years ago. Forged pistons and good rods will prolong the inevitable but if the car is left in the same tune, it will eventually kill a forged rotating assembly.