Turbo Kit for Acura TL '04-'08
12-01-2010, 03:50 PM
#4481
Three Wheelin'
Inaccurate beat me to it lol...damn he's quick .
Phee, no I don't have a spare...I got problems with my car as we speak, and tranny being one of them possibly. Can't start it, so idk for sure, but its not the same prob as last time, which was 3rd gear
Phee, no I don't have a spare...I got problems with my car as we speak, and tranny being one of them possibly. Can't start it, so idk for sure, but its not the same prob as last time, which was 3rd gear
12-01-2010, 04:00 PM
#4482
Safety Car
IHC,
As you recall, Bert recently switched from w/m to pure methanol.
As we know, the pure methanol is superior to the w/m in producing power. But the water is superior in cooling down the chamber.
*IF* the theory of butted ring ends was indeed the reason for the failure, I could see that maybe the pure methanol was a contributing factor.
But honestly, I am still sticking to the detonation theory myself. I just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought.
As you recall, Bert recently switched from w/m to pure methanol.
As we know, the pure methanol is superior to the w/m in producing power. But the water is superior in cooling down the chamber.
*IF* the theory of butted ring ends was indeed the reason for the failure, I could see that maybe the pure methanol was a contributing factor.
But honestly, I am still sticking to the detonation theory myself. I just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought.
12-01-2010, 04:20 PM
#4484
Team Owner
IHC - Below are the specs. I have a pic, which I know you can't see at the moment from your location. So, I included the text too.
Piston Clearance in cylinder
New = 0.015 - 0.040 mm (0.0006 - 0.0016 in.)
Limit = 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
Top Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.35 mm (0.008 - 0.014 in.)
Limit = 0.60 mm (0.024 in)
Second Ring End Gap
New = 0.40 - 0.55 mm (0.016 - 0.022 in.)
Limit = 0.70 mm (0.028 in.)
Oil Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.70 mm (0.008 - 0.028 in.)
Limit = 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
Piston Clearance in cylinder
New = 0.015 - 0.040 mm (0.0006 - 0.0016 in.)
Limit = 0.08 mm (0.003 in.)
Top Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.35 mm (0.008 - 0.014 in.)
Limit = 0.60 mm (0.024 in)
Second Ring End Gap
New = 0.40 - 0.55 mm (0.016 - 0.022 in.)
Limit = 0.70 mm (0.028 in.)
Oil Ring End Gap
New = 0.20 - 0.70 mm (0.008 - 0.028 in.)
Limit = 0.80 mm (0.031 in.)
Those gaps are amazingly tight. I'm sure it's for fuel economy, emissions, and power when NA.
I shoot for .018 top and .021 second on a 3.8" bore. So scale it down approriately for a 3.5" bore and you can still see the gap is waaay too tight although if the engine were built on the extreme loose end of factory it might survive. Maybe a 350,000 mile engine would have a better chance at surviving lol.
I'm not sure if the TL uses regular cast or hypereutectic pistons but if they're hypers, you can add .002" to each gap.
Same with the piston to wall clearance. If it were built to the extreme loose end of factory spec it would have a chance at surviving. On the tight end, I would be afraid to run 1psi on it lol.
For the way these things seem to get run, I would do a nice JE forged piston with .003" and you can run it wide open all day long. It will have a little noise until it's fully warm but that's a small price to pay for reliability.
It is a bit surprising to see how tight these clearances are. I would definately limit boost to 1/4 mile at a time, no top end runs. Maybe a good oil cooler with high capacity pan would help a little but without the TL-S oil squirters I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make but limiting time in boost should greatly help.
12-01-2010, 04:22 PM
#4485
Team Owner
IHC,
As you recall, Bert recently switched from w/m to pure methanol.
As we know, the pure methanol is superior to the w/m in producing power. But the water is superior in cooling down the chamber.
*IF* the theory of butted ring ends was indeed the reason for the failure, I could see that maybe the pure methanol was a contributing factor.
But honestly, I am still sticking to the detonation theory myself. I just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought.
As you recall, Bert recently switched from w/m to pure methanol.
As we know, the pure methanol is superior to the w/m in producing power. But the water is superior in cooling down the chamber.
*IF* the theory of butted ring ends was indeed the reason for the failure, I could see that maybe the pure methanol was a contributing factor.
But honestly, I am still sticking to the detonation theory myself. I just wanted to throw this out there as food for thought.
12-01-2010, 04:40 PM
#4486
Safety Car
Going off topic for selfish reasons - Do you think that I should be ok with these tight gaps using the NMI? (please read the quote directly above first)
Plus if I watch the EGT and have the egt to be no higher than it is with n/a wot, would you think it would be safe that the rings are experiencing no additional expansion while under nitrous boost than the rings would be with n/a?
12-01-2010, 04:47 PM
#4487
Team Owner
IHC -
Going off topic for selfish reasons - Do you think that I should be ok with these tight gaps using the NMI? (please read the quote directly above first)
Plus if I watch the EGT and have the egt to be no higher than it is with n/a wot, would you think it would be safe that the rings are experiencing no additional expansion while under nitrous boost than the rings would be with n/a?
Going off topic for selfish reasons - Do you think that I should be ok with these tight gaps using the NMI? (please read the quote directly above first)
Plus if I watch the EGT and have the egt to be no higher than it is with n/a wot, would you think it would be safe that the rings are experiencing no additional expansion while under nitrous boost than the rings would be with n/a?
If you're trying to get around pulling the engine and rebuilding with looser clearances I think it would work just fine. But of course if it were coming out for a rebuild anyway I would use "nitrous" clearances set on the tight end. Of course my nitrous experience is limited but I'm trying to apply the same theory to a highly boosted engine which uses mostly meth up top which may or may not be right.
12-01-2010, 04:56 PM
#4488
Safety Car
During wot, the oem injectors will spray the same amount as n/a wot. The fogger will be adding methanol for all of the supplementary fuel for the wet nitrous side.
So roughly speaking, during nitrous boost, the engine will be burning 50% gasoline (via oem injectors) and 50% methanol (via fogger).
As an interesting side note - It is *not* possible to run 100% methanol and nitrous. The nitrous requires a little heat to breakdown to release the oxygen. And methanol does not burn with enough heat. Some gasoline is a must to supply some little heat.
12-01-2010, 09:21 PM
#4490
Team Owner
Yes.
During wot, the oem injectors will spray the same amount as n/a wot. The fogger will be adding methanol for all of the supplementary fuel for the wet nitrous side.
So roughly speaking, during nitrous boost, the engine will be burning 50% gasoline (via oem injectors) and 50% methanol (via fogger).
As an interesting side note - It is *not* possible to run 100% methanol and nitrous. The nitrous requires a little heat to breakdown to release the oxygen. And methanol does not burn with enough heat. Some gasoline is a must to supply some little heat.
During wot, the oem injectors will spray the same amount as n/a wot. The fogger will be adding methanol for all of the supplementary fuel for the wet nitrous side.
So roughly speaking, during nitrous boost, the engine will be burning 50% gasoline (via oem injectors) and 50% methanol (via fogger).
As an interesting side note - It is *not* possible to run 100% methanol and nitrous. The nitrous requires a little heat to breakdown to release the oxygen. And methanol does not burn with enough heat. Some gasoline is a must to supply some little heat.
While we're off topic, a guy I used to work for (Bill Standridge) was a human encyclopedia of information. This guy ran somewhere in the bottom 6s at 218mph back in the early '90s on a little 355SBC with two of the biggest non diesel turbos available at the time. Car was mechanically fuel injected, from what he said it was under turbo'd but there was nothing out there at the time to support his kind of power. I can't say the exact hp but it made 2,800 before breaking his engine dyno at moderate boost so you can guess it was pretty serious when fully dialed up, much more than it's trap speed would indicate. It never made a full pass because the chassis couldn't take the power and it would wrap the tires up and become unstable. He actually tripped the beams at 190mph with the rear tires once but pulled the shoot and straightened it out before it crashed. Every pass was with him lifting at some point. It would've been in the 5s on meth only, no nitro.
It had two huge turbos hanging off each side of the dragster. It's first time at Famoso, the tech guy didn't know what to say or how to tech it so he told him not to wreck.
Anyway, to my point, it was a pure methanol engine. The turbos went straight into the intake plenum with no intercooler. When I asked him why he didn't intercool it, he said it already had issues with icing up the intake from the amount of methanol injected and adding an intercooler would actually heat the air up. This was what made me decide to start massively upping my methanol amount. The calculated meth I was using was 20% of my fuel at 29-30psi boost and the charge air going into the manifold was about 60 degrees below ambient. I was experimenting and had the goal of 50% meth before everything went to hell lol.
12-01-2010, 10:45 PM
#4491
Safety Car
IHC,
<< It would've been in the 5s on meth only, no nitro. >>
I am glad that you included this comment about no nitro. As I was reading it, the only thing going thru my mind is 2800 hp = Nitromethane/Methanol mixture.
When you ran 20% methanol, do you recall what the flow rate was for the methanol?
I will be pumping this amount of methanol (same amount listed in different units) -
130 Lbs/hr
19.7 gal/hr
0.33 gal/min
1250 ml/min
<< It would've been in the 5s on meth only, no nitro. >>
I am glad that you included this comment about no nitro. As I was reading it, the only thing going thru my mind is 2800 hp = Nitromethane/Methanol mixture.
When you ran 20% methanol, do you recall what the flow rate was for the methanol?
I will be pumping this amount of methanol (same amount listed in different units) -
130 Lbs/hr
19.7 gal/hr
0.33 gal/min
1250 ml/min
12-01-2010, 10:54 PM
#4493
Team Owner
IHC,
<< It would've been in the 5s on meth only, no nitro. >>
I am glad that you included this comment about no nitro. As I was reading it, the only thing going thru my mind is 2800 hp = Nitromethane/Methanol mixture.
When you ran 20% methanol, do you recall what the flow rate was for the methanol?
I will be pumping this amount of methanol (same amount listed in different units) -
130 Lbs/hr
19.7 gal/hr
0.33 gal/min
1250 ml/min
<< It would've been in the 5s on meth only, no nitro. >>
I am glad that you included this comment about no nitro. As I was reading it, the only thing going thru my mind is 2800 hp = Nitromethane/Methanol mixture.
When you ran 20% methanol, do you recall what the flow rate was for the methanol?
I will be pumping this amount of methanol (same amount listed in different units) -
130 Lbs/hr
19.7 gal/hr
0.33 gal/min
1250 ml/min
12-01-2010, 11:09 PM
#4494
Team Owner
I was running two nozzles, M15s or M10s or maybe a combo of both, I can't remember. Pump pressure was somewhere around 200psi. I'm sure there's a way to calculate it out from the psi vs nozzle but I have no idea how.
12-01-2010, 11:34 PM
#4495
Safety Car
The numbers indicate GPH at 100 PSI. So with two M15 nozzles, you were using 45 GPH (at 200 psi) of methanol on the GN? I don't have time to do the math at this moment. I will calculate it in a little bit.
Last edited by Inaccurate; 12-01-2010 at 11:38 PM.
12-02-2010, 12:14 AM
#4496
Safety Car
IHC,
Each M15 nozzle will flow 21 GPH at 200 PSI. So this would had been 42 GPH of methanol that you was using on your GN?
If so, you were flowing double of what I expect to flow. But my percentage will be higher (50%) than your 20% because my overall HP is much less.... meaning mine has less gasoline than your GN's amount of gasoline.
<< So would the non flammable mixture just take up space and take away power similar to EGR? >>
Good question. I don't know, but this sounds like a good guess. Although it would be an expensive egr
Each M15 nozzle will flow 21 GPH at 200 PSI. So this would had been 42 GPH of methanol that you was using on your GN?
If so, you were flowing double of what I expect to flow. But my percentage will be higher (50%) than your 20% because my overall HP is much less.... meaning mine has less gasoline than your GN's amount of gasoline.
<< So would the non flammable mixture just take up space and take away power similar to EGR? >>
Good question. I don't know, but this sounds like a good guess. Although it would be an expensive egr
12-02-2010, 12:37 AM
#4497
Safety Car
IHC,
If your fuel injectors were 60 lbs/hr each, this is 360 lbs/hr of gasoline. This converts to 59 GPH of gasoline. This is not taking into consideration of your increased gasoline fuel pressure... it would be a minor difference.
Roughly you were using 42 GPH of methanol.
This is 42% methanol and 58% gasoline that you was running. Not 20%
FOR OTHER READERS - This appears to be off topic, but it is related to this turbo thread. Anyone wanting to get serious with running an extreme turbo setup needs to get acquainted with this sort of jargon. You can't have an extreme turbo setup without using methanol and learning how to calculate flow rates.
If your fuel injectors were 60 lbs/hr each, this is 360 lbs/hr of gasoline. This converts to 59 GPH of gasoline. This is not taking into consideration of your increased gasoline fuel pressure... it would be a minor difference.
Roughly you were using 42 GPH of methanol.
This is 42% methanol and 58% gasoline that you was running. Not 20%
FOR OTHER READERS - This appears to be off topic, but it is related to this turbo thread. Anyone wanting to get serious with running an extreme turbo setup needs to get acquainted with this sort of jargon. You can't have an extreme turbo setup without using methanol and learning how to calculate flow rates.
12-02-2010, 02:37 AM
#4498
Dont know yet. Im EXTREMELY tempted to pull everything apart this weekend just to find out wtf happened.
I can still drive the car if I wanted to but its just sitting in the driveway now. Im thinking once everything starts to come together with new parts Ill get my hands dirty.
This poses another problem. Ive read your posts and you state that the best position for an aftermarket sensor is the oem location. Ill be using the blank right next to the oem sensor. Is that a sufficient enough location? No one knows yet.
Then comes verifying it works before we start boosting. One option is turning off the boost controller and allowing the waste gate to be fully open at all times while testing. This will allow the car to be in stock form since all the boost will bleed off. The 87 octane trick would be a good idea at this point.
Eventually I will.
Agreed. I dont plan on going backwards with power, only upwards. However, with over 400 to the wheels with the auto, 1st and 2nd gear are out of control. I even saw a spike of 12.1psi on 2nd gear. That could be close 450whp. Way to much for the auto to handle in the low gears.
If indeed I was knocking at those power levels, I still dont want to turn down the boost. I believe the best option at that point is to use the new knock detector to find out where in the rpm range we are knocking, then pull a degree or two of timing from the ignition map in the fic for that particular rpm range.
Just so everyone knows, Ive been using the stock fuel pump since day 1. The lower power levels around 350whp had no problems with the stock pump. The fuel map only needed to be tweaked a little bit to allow the pump to run at most ad additional 10% longer then stock with no meth in order to get the a/f down to 11s.
With the higher hp tune, I needed to run the pump at 20% longer then stock settings just to get me to 12.0ish a/f and that was WITH meth. The stock pump was really maxed out and could not handle the job towards the end.
Right now we are looking at a bosch inline pump and upgraded fuel rails instead of the walbro for the new motor.
If you can, bring this thing with you when you come back to NY when we do this build.
SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Detonation aside, if this turns out to be true then Im hunting you 2 down since you guys promoted pure meth for the longest time
LOL
2 175ml/min nozzles = 350ml/min. However, the tech at snow performance told me that their nozzles are underrated. He said that 2 175/ml nozzles are pushing closer to 500ml/min
Any point in upgrading to the TL-S cams?
I can still drive the car if I wanted to but its just sitting in the driveway now. Im thinking once everything starts to come together with new parts Ill get my hands dirty.
However, I can see how this would be a problem if someone failed to verify that the knock monitor was working as intended to show knock. Then that person would alter their tune falsely thinking that they had no knock. This would be a nightmare.
When I first installed mine, I purchased cheap 87 gasoline to verify that the monitor worked. I had the advantage of having no turbo or s/c to worry about. I tested mine with just n/a. No more harm than someone getting a bad tank of gasoline.
However for someone that is boosted already, it is more difficult to verify that the monitor is working accurately to detect detonation.
When I first installed mine, I purchased cheap 87 gasoline to verify that the monitor worked. I had the advantage of having no turbo or s/c to worry about. I tested mine with just n/a. No more harm than someone getting a bad tank of gasoline.
However for someone that is boosted already, it is more difficult to verify that the monitor is working accurately to detect detonation.
Then comes verifying it works before we start boosting. One option is turning off the boost controller and allowing the waste gate to be fully open at all times while testing. This will allow the car to be in stock form since all the boost will bleed off. The 87 octane trick would be a good idea at this point.
Agreed. I totally understand Rodney's logic and it works just fine. Find the point of knock, back off the boost and it should be good to go without monitoring. Obviously Bert was fine tuning and jacking the boost up which is where the knock detector goes from recommended to required.
If indeed I was knocking at those power levels, I still dont want to turn down the boost. I believe the best option at that point is to use the new knock detector to find out where in the rpm range we are knocking, then pull a degree or two of timing from the ignition map in the fic for that particular rpm range.
With the higher hp tune, I needed to run the pump at 20% longer then stock settings just to get me to 12.0ish a/f and that was WITH meth. The stock pump was really maxed out and could not handle the job towards the end.
Right now we are looking at a bosch inline pump and upgraded fuel rails instead of the walbro for the new motor.
If you can, bring this thing with you when you come back to NY when we do this build.
Detonation aside, if this turns out to be true then Im hunting you 2 down since you guys promoted pure meth for the longest time
LOLAny point in upgrading to the TL-S cams?
12-02-2010, 01:59 PM
#4499
Team Owner
IHC,
If your fuel injectors were 60 lbs/hr each, this is 360 lbs/hr of gasoline. This converts to 59 GPH of gasoline. This is not taking into consideration of your increased gasoline fuel pressure... it would be a minor difference.
Roughly you were using 42 GPH of methanol.
This is 42% methanol and 58% gasoline that you was running. Not 20%
FOR OTHER READERS - This appears to be off topic, but it is related to this turbo thread. Anyone wanting to get serious with running an extreme turbo setup needs to get acquainted with this sort of jargon. You can't have an extreme turbo setup without using methanol and learning how to calculate flow rates.
If your fuel injectors were 60 lbs/hr each, this is 360 lbs/hr of gasoline. This converts to 59 GPH of gasoline. This is not taking into consideration of your increased gasoline fuel pressure... it would be a minor difference.
Roughly you were using 42 GPH of methanol.
This is 42% methanol and 58% gasoline that you was running. Not 20%
FOR OTHER READERS - This appears to be off topic, but it is related to this turbo thread. Anyone wanting to get serious with running an extreme turbo setup needs to get acquainted with this sort of jargon. You can't have an extreme turbo setup without using methanol and learning how to calculate flow rates.
12-02-2010, 02:17 PM
#4500
Team Owner
Dont know yet. Im EXTREMELY tempted to pull everything apart this weekend just to find out wtf happened.
I can still drive the car if I wanted to but its just sitting in the driveway now. Im thinking once everything starts to come together with new parts Ill get my hands dirty.
This poses another problem. Ive read your posts and you state that the best position for an aftermarket sensor is the oem location. Ill be using the blank right next to the oem sensor. Is that a sufficient enough location? No one knows yet.
Then comes verifying it works before we start boosting. One option is turning off the boost controller and allowing the waste gate to be fully open at all times while testing. This will allow the car to be in stock form since all the boost will bleed off. The 87 octane trick would be a good idea at this point.
Eventually I will.
Agreed. I dont plan on going backwards with power, only upwards. However, with over 400 to the wheels with the auto, 1st and 2nd gear are out of control. I even saw a spike of 12.1psi on 2nd gear. That could be close 450whp. Way to much for the auto to handle in the low gears.
If indeed I was knocking at those power levels, I still dont want to turn down the boost. I believe the best option at that point is to use the new knock detector to find out where in the rpm range we are knocking, then pull a degree or two of timing from the ignition map in the fic for that particular rpm range.
Just so everyone knows, Ive been using the stock fuel pump since day 1. The lower power levels around 350whp had no problems with the stock pump. The fuel map only needed to be tweaked a little bit to allow the pump to run at most ad additional 10% longer then stock with no meth in order to get the a/f down to 11s.
With the higher hp tune, I needed to run the pump at 20% longer then stock settings just to get me to 12.0ish a/f and that was WITH meth. The stock pump was really maxed out and could not handle the job towards the end.
Right now we are looking at a bosch inline pump and upgraded fuel rails instead of the walbro for the new motor.
If you can, bring this thing with you when you come back to NY when we do this build.
SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Detonation aside, if this turns out to be true then Im hunting you 2 down since you guys promoted pure meth for the longest time
LOL
2 175ml/min nozzles = 350ml/min. However, the tech at snow performance told me that their nozzles are underrated. He said that 2 175/ml nozzles are pushing closer to 500ml/min
Any point in upgrading to the TL-S cams?
I can still drive the car if I wanted to but its just sitting in the driveway now. Im thinking once everything starts to come together with new parts Ill get my hands dirty.
This poses another problem. Ive read your posts and you state that the best position for an aftermarket sensor is the oem location. Ill be using the blank right next to the oem sensor. Is that a sufficient enough location? No one knows yet.
Then comes verifying it works before we start boosting. One option is turning off the boost controller and allowing the waste gate to be fully open at all times while testing. This will allow the car to be in stock form since all the boost will bleed off. The 87 octane trick would be a good idea at this point.
Eventually I will.
Agreed. I dont plan on going backwards with power, only upwards. However, with over 400 to the wheels with the auto, 1st and 2nd gear are out of control. I even saw a spike of 12.1psi on 2nd gear. That could be close 450whp. Way to much for the auto to handle in the low gears.
If indeed I was knocking at those power levels, I still dont want to turn down the boost. I believe the best option at that point is to use the new knock detector to find out where in the rpm range we are knocking, then pull a degree or two of timing from the ignition map in the fic for that particular rpm range.
Just so everyone knows, Ive been using the stock fuel pump since day 1. The lower power levels around 350whp had no problems with the stock pump. The fuel map only needed to be tweaked a little bit to allow the pump to run at most ad additional 10% longer then stock with no meth in order to get the a/f down to 11s.
With the higher hp tune, I needed to run the pump at 20% longer then stock settings just to get me to 12.0ish a/f and that was WITH meth. The stock pump was really maxed out and could not handle the job towards the end.
Right now we are looking at a bosch inline pump and upgraded fuel rails instead of the walbro for the new motor.
If you can, bring this thing with you when you come back to NY when we do this build.
SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Detonation aside, if this turns out to be true then Im hunting you 2 down since you guys promoted pure meth for the longest time
LOL2 175ml/min nozzles = 350ml/min. However, the tech at snow performance told me that their nozzles are underrated. He said that 2 175/ml nozzles are pushing closer to 500ml/min
Any point in upgrading to the TL-S cams?
As for cam upgrades, I don't really see a reason to. That engine flows enough air as is that you will make 600+hp at a reasonable boost level. Bigger cams could mean it takes .5psi less boost to make the same power but IMO it's not worth it unless you get the cams cheap or free and you're already into the engine which you will be.
The intake manifold will probably become more of an issue with more airflow. It's probably time to ditch the secondary butterflies and honestly I would ditch the whole stock plenum setup. It looks like more #6 pistons break than anything else. This tells me there's an air distribution problem in the mani. If you choose to stick with it, when you get upgraded injectors, I would put the highest flowing of the bunch on #6.
One thing I've never seen, it the TL's fuel rail fed on both ends or does it dead end? What I'm getting at is if there's a pressure drop by the time the fuel gets to the #6 injector?
I would shoot for a fairely big rail just to make sure there's no pressure drop.
You still want a good fuel pump in the tank. I would go with one of the high end in tank Walbros. The last time I checked, the old 340 would support 500hp. An inline will probably be required as well. It's not likely but the inline can possibly outrun the stock pump since we don't know what it's rated at. Whatever you choose, it's always good to have a ton of reserve in the fueling department. I would overshoot by at least 30% more fuel than you ever think you will need.
Any thoughts on what you may be using for injectors?
12-02-2010, 02:22 PM
#4501
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
^^^ IHC if u mean to ask if the 3rd gen has a returnless fuel system or return fuel system, the 3rd gen tl has a returnless fuel system. i have just recently upgraded my fuel system with walbro pump, fpr, ss lines,RDX injectors and custom fuel rails that look like this.
to answer your question, i know paul told me that when i got my j36 done that it would be in my best interest to convert my car to return system since problems have occured with the farther cylinders fuel pressure dropping on some of paul's previous builds. luckily paul corrected this early on with the builds he worked on and since then pressure drop has not been a issue for the j-series engines that have my same fuel rail setup.
to answer your question, i know paul told me that when i got my j36 done that it would be in my best interest to convert my car to return system since problems have occured with the farther cylinders fuel pressure dropping on some of paul's previous builds. luckily paul corrected this early on with the builds he worked on and since then pressure drop has not been a issue for the j-series engines that have my same fuel rail setup.
Last edited by tenzingsherpa; 12-02-2010 at 02:32 PM.
you truly are a beast of info!!!
12-02-2010, 04:07 PM
#4505
Three Wheelin'
That's not your guess, that's just how it flows.
Now if you guys notice..the first rail, the top is for 1-2-3
and bottom for 4-5-6.. with 3 and 6 being at the beginning of the rails where gas flows first, 6 being the first one on the bottom rail.
So it's not really a circle, 3-2-1-4-5-6, which would make 6 the last injector, assuming it would experience pressure drop being the farthest. I don't see it happening.
I don't know if it was this thread or another one (maybe Bert's "misfire" thread), but I mentioned which pistons I experienced ring land failures. First time it was cylinder 2-3, and 2nd time it was 4-6.
I wouldn't draw much conclusions on #6 being affected from anything abnormal. As far as I know, Bert's the only one that had #6 fail, and maybe one more guy (i think ussi).
I think, the cylinders with the healthiest (highest compression pressure) compression, will be the one/s to go first. Not all 6 will ever be the same, and even 10-15 psi difference is sufficient enough to make one, more likely to go than another with lower compression.
I remember, before the first time I experienced this, bank-1 (rear 1-2-3), had the higher compression, than the front. Not excessively high, but just higher. Those were the ones that broke first.
Detonation will occur on any of them, but it will be more severe on one with higher compression, all else being equal.
Now if you guys notice..the first rail, the top is for 1-2-3
and bottom for 4-5-6.. with 3 and 6 being at the beginning of the rails where gas flows first, 6 being the first one on the bottom rail.
So it's not really a circle, 3-2-1-4-5-6, which would make 6 the last injector, assuming it would experience pressure drop being the farthest. I don't see it happening.
I don't know if it was this thread or another one (maybe Bert's "misfire" thread), but I mentioned which pistons I experienced ring land failures. First time it was cylinder 2-3, and 2nd time it was 4-6.
I wouldn't draw much conclusions on #6 being affected from anything abnormal. As far as I know, Bert's the only one that had #6 fail, and maybe one more guy (i think ussi).
I think, the cylinders with the healthiest (highest compression pressure) compression, will be the one/s to go first. Not all 6 will ever be the same, and even 10-15 psi difference is sufficient enough to make one, more likely to go than another with lower compression.
I remember, before the first time I experienced this, bank-1 (rear 1-2-3), had the higher compression, than the front. Not excessively high, but just higher. Those were the ones that broke first.
Detonation will occur on any of them, but it will be more severe on one with higher compression, all else being equal.
12-02-2010, 04:50 PM
#4506
Do you have a certain comp raitio in mind? I know some people only lower it to 10:1 for boost but it would be a good idea to go somewhere around 8.5 or 9:1. It will be a little lazy on the bottom end but with the amount of traction you have, I don't think that will be an issue. With this compression you're talking a solid 15psi boost knock free without meth. Even with the lowered compression you're going to be in the low 500hp club on pump gas, no meth.
As for cam upgrades, I don't really see a reason to. That engine flows enough air as is that you will make 600+hp at a reasonable boost level. Bigger cams could mean it takes .5psi less boost to make the same power but IMO it's not worth it unless you get the cams cheap or free and you're already into the engine which you will be.
The intake manifold will probably become more of an issue with more airflow. It's probably time to ditch the secondary butterflies and honestly I would ditch the whole stock plenum setup. It looks like more #6 pistons break than anything else. This tells me there's an air distribution problem in the mani. If you choose to stick with it, when you get upgraded injectors, I would put the highest flowing of the bunch on #6.
One thing I've never seen, it the TL's fuel rail fed on both ends or does it dead end? What I'm getting at is if there's a pressure drop by the time the fuel gets to the #6 injector?
I would shoot for a fairely big rail just to make sure there's no pressure drop.
You still want a good fuel pump in the tank. I would go with one of the high end in tank Walbros. The last time I checked, the old 340 would support 500hp. An inline will probably be required as well. It's not likely but the inline can possibly outrun the stock pump since we don't know what it's rated at. Whatever you choose, it's always good to have a ton of reserve in the fueling department. I would overshoot by at least 30% more fuel than you ever think you will need.
Any thoughts on what you may be using for injectors?
As for cam upgrades, I don't really see a reason to. That engine flows enough air as is that you will make 600+hp at a reasonable boost level. Bigger cams could mean it takes .5psi less boost to make the same power but IMO it's not worth it unless you get the cams cheap or free and you're already into the engine which you will be.
The intake manifold will probably become more of an issue with more airflow. It's probably time to ditch the secondary butterflies and honestly I would ditch the whole stock plenum setup. It looks like more #6 pistons break than anything else. This tells me there's an air distribution problem in the mani. If you choose to stick with it, when you get upgraded injectors, I would put the highest flowing of the bunch on #6.
One thing I've never seen, it the TL's fuel rail fed on both ends or does it dead end? What I'm getting at is if there's a pressure drop by the time the fuel gets to the #6 injector?
I would shoot for a fairely big rail just to make sure there's no pressure drop.
You still want a good fuel pump in the tank. I would go with one of the high end in tank Walbros. The last time I checked, the old 340 would support 500hp. An inline will probably be required as well. It's not likely but the inline can possibly outrun the stock pump since we don't know what it's rated at. Whatever you choose, it's always good to have a ton of reserve in the fueling department. I would overshoot by at least 30% more fuel than you ever think you will need.
Any thoughts on what you may be using for injectors?
Agreed. TL-s cams are not worth it
Im using the rdx injectors. 440cc I believe
Heres the info from Rodney on what the plans are
Pistons are from wiesco. lower ringlands, detonation groove
ARP rod bolts if we can get them
ARP head studs
new rod and crankshaft bearings
.25 oversize in the block
a fuel return setup with a walbro, fpr and a bosch 044 inline
And after all that I can finally get that type-s front sway bar in there LOL
12-02-2010, 07:11 PM
#4508
Compression ratio will be 9:1 or 9.5:1
Agreed. TL-s cams are not worth it
Im using the rdx injectors. 440cc I believe
Heres the info from Rodney on what the plans are
Pistons are from wiesco. lower ringlands, detonation groove
ARP rod bolts if we can get them
ARP head studs
new rod and crankshaft bearings
.25 oversize in the block
a fuel return setup with a walbro, fpr and a bosch 044 inline
And after all that I can finally get that type-s front sway bar in there LOL
Agreed. TL-s cams are not worth it
Im using the rdx injectors. 440cc I believe
Heres the info from Rodney on what the plans are
Pistons are from wiesco. lower ringlands, detonation groove
ARP rod bolts if we can get them
ARP head studs
new rod and crankshaft bearings
.25 oversize in the block
a fuel return setup with a walbro, fpr and a bosch 044 inline
And after all that I can finally get that type-s front sway bar in there LOL
Don't we already have the RDX injectors included from the kit. Everything else looks great.
12-02-2010, 09:26 PM
#4509
no biggie but i believe the rdx are 410cc. Im surprised with your set up, the stock ones weren't maxed out, I believe they are 240cc.. either way i hope everything comes together for you..GL
12-02-2010, 10:41 PM
#4511
Team Owner
440cc is not even in the ballpark for the kind of hp you should be making. They're barely enough for 400whp. Those were already getting into the danger zone with the "old" combo.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
12-03-2010, 03:44 AM
#4513
440cc is not even in the ballpark for the kind of hp you should be making. They're barely enough for 400whp. Those were already getting into the danger zone with the "old" combo.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
12-03-2010, 05:50 PM
#4514
Rodney said the same thing regarding the rdx injectors
The other problem is that the FIC can not control injectors much larger then the RDX injectors.
440cc is not even in the ballpark for the kind of hp you should be making. They're barely enough for 400whp. Those were already getting into the danger zone with the "old" combo.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
You need at least a 60lb (650cc) injector to safely make 500 flywheel hp at 80% dc. You're looking at 60lb injectors with a decent shot of meth on top to support that engine.
You could stretch a 60lber to 600 flywheel hp at 100% dc but it will become unreliable and you will end up hurting the injectors. I ran my 60lbers at 100% but only for 1/4 mile at a time. I don't really suggest it if you can help it.
Last edited by libert69; 12-03-2010 at 05:55 PM.
12-03-2010, 07:41 PM
#4516
Team Owner
Do you have any idea if the TL's injectors are low or high impedance (saturated or peak and hold). The only reason I say that is if they mean the FIC can't control a low impedance injector or if it's a pulsewidth issue.
12-03-2010, 10:51 PM
#4517
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
below is his what he stated
Heres the info from Rodney on what the plans are
Pistons are from wiesco. lower ringlands, detonation groove
ARP rod bolts if we can get them
ARP head studs
new rod and crankshaft bearings
.25 oversize in the block
a fuel return setup with a walbro, fpr and a bosch 044 inline
And after all that I can finally get that type-s front sway bar in there LOL
Pistons are from wiesco. lower ringlands, detonation groove
ARP rod bolts if we can get them
ARP head studs
new rod and crankshaft bearings
.25 oversize in the block
a fuel return setup with a walbro, fpr and a bosch 044 inline
And after all that I can finally get that type-s front sway bar in there LOL
12-03-2010, 11:19 PM
#4518
Team Owner
On a somewhat off topic note, the external fuel pump sounds pretty mean. That's one of the things I used to listen for when sizing up the competition. Only reason I use two in-tank Walbros is because they are quiet otherwise I think the external is a better option and I'll probably go with one since I don't race for money anymore.
12-04-2010, 02:18 PM
#4520
Burning Brakes
no point there as IHC also mentioned, you boosted and remember that the TL-S set-up was built as a NA motor with high compression so IMO waste of money getting TypeS cams! sort of like you woudlnt throw a wild high cam profile into a boosted car...you get the picture!
anyway sorry to hear about the news, but I guess its that price everyone pays for going bigger right!! (4blown B-series motors myself)...
so in a way im sorry for the loss, but really glad and salute to you for being the guinea pig of this turbo project
all you work and trial and errors will go a very long way for future turbo TL guys heading your route and learn from your mistakes...you have my upmost respect on this and I hope and pray that everything works out for the best for you in future and you turn out and have a complete BEAST!! when this is all said and done and reach levels that the TL was never thought of reaching....
as for me I want to head this turbo route, but would not have the time and money to be able to blow a motor and have it down long, so reading this thread and by the time I decide to go turbo route I should have a good amount of knowledge of how far my TypeS could be pushed before serious upgrading is needed or just maintain it a reliable DD with no problems....
In all honesty im looking to push 350-400whp(well 350whp seems like its safe to say you can run with no real problems) and hopefully by the time I want to do this turbo thing those numbers are reachable with no major issues( I know I know once you have this much power and get a taste I'll want to push further but I am not looking to get more as I will also have my 4cyl project to fall back to
.
Again thanks again Bert and Rodney for being very supportive and feeding knowledge for all others to be aware of and also can't forget IHC, and InAccurate(father of finding great information on anything)
On a side not to InAccurate,
since your going the nitrous route and also pure meth, im wondering if you will have less knock issues as turbo guys, only due to Nox is the enemy of motors and Nox happens from extreme heat in a sense, so since you head Nitrous route and also meth wouldn't you be running a whole lot cooler then say turbo guys and further being able to keep knock levels lower(maybe even lower than running NA!!) just thinking out loud and maybe you can address this!
IHC or anyone else feel free to chime in on this as well!
Don't know if this have been mentioned before or not but what about turbo guys using nitrous spray nozzles to cool down the intercooler and also lowering temps that way...with more fuel and cooler temps this could help with keeping knock down, given that the tune which Rodney has been doing a good job with is a good tune!! Just my
and better understand how we can get this issue resolved.....Rodney standalone now that would be really nice!!
anyway sorry to hear about the news, but I guess its that price everyone pays for going bigger right!! (4blown B-series motors myself)...
so in a way im sorry for the loss, but really glad and salute to you for being the guinea pig of this turbo project
all you work and trial and errors will go a very long way for future turbo TL guys heading your route and learn from your mistakes...you have my upmost respect on this and I hope and pray that everything works out for the best for you in future and you turn out and have a complete BEAST!! when this is all said and done and reach levels that the TL was never thought of reaching....
as for me I want to head this turbo route, but would not have the time and money to be able to blow a motor and have it down long, so reading this thread and by the time I decide to go turbo route I should have a good amount of knowledge of how far my TypeS could be pushed before serious upgrading is needed or just maintain it a reliable DD with no problems....
In all honesty im looking to push 350-400whp(well 350whp seems like its safe to say you can run with no real problems) and hopefully by the time I want to do this turbo thing those numbers are reachable with no major issues( I know I know once you have this much power and get a taste I'll want to push further but I am not looking to get more as I will also have my 4cyl project to fall back to
. Again thanks again Bert and Rodney for being very supportive and feeding knowledge for all others to be aware of and also can't forget IHC, and InAccurate(father of finding great information on anything)
On a side not to InAccurate,
since your going the nitrous route and also pure meth, im wondering if you will have less knock issues as turbo guys, only due to Nox is the enemy of motors and Nox happens from extreme heat in a sense, so since you head Nitrous route and also meth wouldn't you be running a whole lot cooler then say turbo guys and further being able to keep knock levels lower(maybe even lower than running NA!!) just thinking out loud and maybe you can address this!
IHC or anyone else feel free to chime in on this as well!
Don't know if this have been mentioned before or not but what about turbo guys using nitrous spray nozzles to cool down the intercooler and also lowering temps that way...with more fuel and cooler temps this could help with keeping knock down, given that the tune which Rodney has been doing a good job with is a good tune!! Just my
and better understand how we can get this issue resolved.....Rodney standalone now that would be really nice!!