libert69

iTrader: (7)

FWIW, I was running a spectre filter clamped right onto the turbo. I did numerous runs with and without the filter while recording boost and rpms. I saw NO difference in spool times and the car felt exactly the same under various conditions. I posted about this a long time ago when we were discussing filters.





Bmeyer, Ive read numerous accounts of guys on different forums (especially supraforums) that have used the HKS super mega flow filters and MANY people have expressed concern regarding that particular filters ability to filter small particles. AND, many have said that pieces of the foam from the filter has broken off and been sucked through the compressor.

My impression of the filter was that it looks pretty damn cool, but sucks when it comes to construction and filtering abilities.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I like that turbo blanket, how is it working out for you? My filter looks almost the same, if it's not restricting air then I will leave it for now.

Majofo

foam filters are horrible.

GoldenShoes

so did a turbo kit actually come out for the TL?

haha I'm sorry, I had to do it. well after roughly 2 wks of reading all of the 122 pages of this thread, I'm quite impressed.

I'd also like to give mad props to Rodney and J&R for making a reliable bolt-on kit that our stock high-comp motors can handle with a safe amt of psi and most importantly a GOOD TUNE.

also, thanks to IHC, InAccurate,Opel,bmeyer,NVA-V6 & a few others for all of the knowledge I've gained on this topic.
(and to think I've learned the most from the guy with a BUICK) lol no pun intended IHC.

lastly, thanks to libert69 for showin us 5AT guys what to expect.

time to switch that tranny fluid, by a cooler and save that $$$...

damn u Acurazine, I thought my civic addiction was bad. this is worse...

libert69

iTrader: (7)

so this thread needs a bump ...assembly underway for my car

question for I hate cars or anyone else with auto transmission knowledge.

on my last dyno of 400whp and 335wtq, there was quite a big difference between hp and tq. almost all of the 6sp turbo'd tl's have those 2 numbers much closer. So that leads me to think that the stock torque convertor is not up to the challenge of big power and we were blowing through the converter.

what are the side effects of blowing through the convertor? Does it cause more wear and tear over time? permanent damage? Is it really a bad thing?

With the new build underway, I dont think Ill be happy with anything less then 500whp. Im sure with that much hp the difference in tq will be even greater then before and wondering about the effects on the torque converter

Another note on building boost off the line. Rodney has not gotten around to testing this out yet but we think the stock ecu is going to keep pulling the throttle and not allowing boost from a standstill.

So this leads us to an antilag setup for the auto. Im having hard time finding any info on antilag systems for automatic cars. Reason being is because almost every turbo auto I come across, they can all build boost by applying the brake and gas at the same time without having the ecu interfering. On the other hand, some auto guys use the antilag setup to build even more boost from a standstill then brake torquing will allow

I found something on the turbobuick forums about an automatic with antilag system that worked great but the guy had a stall speed of around 4000. But the problem with the TL is that the stock stall speed is about 2100 rpms.

I think the antilag system wont work on a car with such a low stall speed. What do you guys think?

I know antilag systems can be very taxing on the turbo but this isnt something that I would be using all the time. I really want it for the track

libert69

iTrader: (7)

If anyone remembers the problems I had with 2nd gear not up-shifting to 3rd in auto mode, I think I found out the problem. I stumbled across a gto and srt8 forum, both members were running turbo applications and they had the same exact problem I had and even in the same gear as me.

In response to the problem, one member had mentioned he has seen this happen before. The problem was that they were blowing through the converter so bad it laid the fins over in the converter and under any real hard pulls it would just bounce off the limiter until you let out to around 75% throttle (exactly my situation).

Basically there is no fluid passing by the fins internally

I hate cars or Inaccurate or anyone with auto trans knowledge, whats your take on this? If this is truly the cause of the problem, is there any solution you can see? Does this relate to not enough line pressure?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

regarding my previous post, here are 2 threads from the same guy talking about the trans shifting problem

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397909

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automa...-throttle.html

phee

iTrader: (5)

I still say you try with the brake switch disabled. If that works then you can install a button to bypass the brake switch for track days.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

phee,

i havent forgotten about that brake switch yet. i have some ideas to throw at it. exploring some other options

phee

iTrader: (5)

maybe you can tune to back off boost before shifts. drop a couple lbs around 6000-7200rpm and then bring them back up to fix the blow-through

Inaccurate

Bert,

Just a quick reply.

Regarding Hanging in 2nd Gear - I totally disagree. Our TL has a different cause than the other forums. The reason that I say this is because the other forums are destroying the converter with too much torque... more torque than the oem converter was designed to handle (and such is life when hot rodding). Admittedly, I have not read the other forums threads (short on time tonight). Just going by Bert's description of the events.

The hanging with the TL happens to everyone..... people with no mods. This is why I said that our TL hanging is from a completely different cause. The effect might be identical, but the cause is totally different.

I just recently had mine hang in second gear. This is an extremely rare event for my car. It was on a wet, slippery road. I was easing into the throttle while the car was lightly spinning thru 2nd gear. I was able to realize that the hanging was occurring even before I reached 6000 RPM and I eased off the throttle hoping for it to shift. It would not shift. I pulled over the side of the run to throw it into Park for a reset. So, it is totally unrelated to too much power. I was laying-down maybe 100 hp to the wet pavement and it still hung in 2nd. To me, I think it is an ECM (PCM to be exact) programming issue (bug).

Regarding converters - To my knowledge, there is no such thing as "blowing thru a converter". A converter has a designed amount of stall. Apply more torque against the converter, and it will stall at a higher RPM (similar to a rubber band stretching further if more force is apply against it).

"Blowing thru a converter" might mean that the converter has a stall speed that is higher than where the engine make peak torque. And, yes, that is is a bad thing. Ideally, you want the converter to stall approx close to where the engine makes peak torque. For example, if the engine make peak tq at 5000 RPM, you would want a stall speed of approx 4500 RPM (very rough approximation).

And the oem converter is far from having a stall that is too high. So, I am left dumb-founded by what others are calling "blowing thru the converter" When I was into hot-rodding, we never had a term like that.

I am going to bed now. I will post again tomorrow night late.

I hate cars

You really can't have an anti-lag without full throttle off the start and if you could get full throttle off the start, you wouldn't need the anti-lag. You would just be pressuring the inlet tract up to the mostly closed throttle plate.

I don't think anyone knows the true stall speed of the stock convertor because you can't apply full throttle with the brakes on. You can get an idea by letting off the brake and then flooring it but that's flashing the convertor and with no boost the reading would not be correct.

Two things need to happen. The TL needs a good convertor with a stall speed of 2,800rpm and you need full throttle with the brakes on. You would have full power available instantly. The car will feel like it lost 1,000lbs in normal every day driving. It will gain a ton of responsiveness.

Usually when you blow through the convertor you will see lots of heat in the fluid but not always. Low torque is a major symptom. You can have the stock one upgraded or give a custom convertor shop your stock specs (flex plate convertor bolt mounting ear diameter, size and spline count of the input shaft and stator support). It's a really easy and somewhat common job for a good shop. Sending them your stock convertor as a template for the upgrade is also done. The convertor, like the turbo, will make or break your combo. You will have neck snapping power from a standstill before the boost even hits. A higher stall is kind of a band-aid to the throttle cut problem but both should be taken care of. This is one thing that will get done to my stock TL once the trans goes out.

I hate cars

It starts happening to the GNs around 600lbs of torque on the stock convertor. Torque takes a nosedive and heat goes up. The fins can physically bend which makes it terribly inefficient. Sometimes they deflect just a little under full power but are ok under partial throttle. Regardless of whether or not it's blowing through, the racing convertors will put quite a bit more power to the wheels and less in heat.

HQTL6SPD

How about pulling a converter from a TL in a junkyard as a template, then sell to the next guy interested.

An instant swap of parts when the shop finishes your custom converter. And it will save the need of having the car sit for weeks possibly.

greco9885

iTrader: (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgdmO...layer_embedded

Majofo

you need to change your oil & filter..

Inaccurate

IHC,

I agree with that description. After I posted that reply, I remember what power levels we [hotrodders] were at back in the 1980's (back in my days of being heavy into drag racing)

With the wealth of knowledge spread by the internet and more advanced technology, modded cars put out a lot more power than they did in the 1980's

libert69

iTrader: (7)

the guy on the gto forums has a upgraded torque converter that was built for him when he was supercharged. I think he has something like 500whp. He then switched to a twin turbo setup and was making 640whp. At that point he started having the 2nd gear hanging problem with the upgraded converter

Thats what I wanted to know. So much for that idea

What exactly is "lots" of heat? 3rd gear wot runs for me usually raise the trans temp 7-10 degrees F

Ive always heard that as well. I guess we will see what happens to the tq when we shoot for some big HP


Greco,

I remember your thread about backpressure when you posted these vids. That vid does show a pretty decent launch. All you did was remove the fuse?

Have you tried Inaccurates suggestion? I have not had a chance to do this yet but its the first thing im trying when I go to get my car

Check these 2 posts

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=4340

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=4342

I hate cars

7-10F is completely normal for full throttle especially at your power level.

Another benefit if you go with a GOOD aftermarket convertor is locking the clutch at full throttle. You will get an amazing surge in your backside by locking the convertor at full throttle in the higher gears. It will load the turbo down hard and torque will skyrocket. It would probably just burn right through the TL's stock clutch but they make multi clutch lockup units in the aftermarket. I'm getting ahead of myself a little, I know, but it's something to consider when you're looking at convertors. MPH in the 1/4 can be increased from 2-10mph depending on how inefficient the convertor is in the first place. It also extends each gear out farther before you have to shift.

The other option on the other end of the spectrum is to get an actual "turbo" convertor like I have. It's very pricey, about $1,100 but it's a non lock with less than 1% slip at full throttle. You'll lose about 1mph at most over a lockup and it has other advantages that outweigh the lockup IMO. It's super loose below 2,800rpm but it just grabs all at once when it hits the stall rpm which is very nice for a turbo car. Most 2,800 stalls will grab from idle on up before boost hits and you have a hard time hitting the full stall speed with a turbo. A turbo specific convertor will make full boost much quicker and easier.

A side effect of one of these small lightweight convertors is your car will rev like an indy car. Imagine my old Buick pulling up with an old outdated V6 that when it revs goes from idle to 5,000rpm and back in about 1.5 seconds. It's almost weird sounding. The TL should rev even quicker.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Ive been debating on the route I want to take in regards to converters and even the automatic trans. Im sticking with the oem trans for now and Ill keep throwing power at it until it breaks on me. Picking up a spare auto trans is no problem. On the other hand, I come across 6spd transmissions here and there that are very decently priced so that is another option too

I hate cars

While I would love to see you continue down the 5at path and I believe it ultimately holds the most potential for getting down the 1/4 the quickest (if that's your goal), there's no doubt a 6mt swap would probably be cheaper.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

When I have time Ill read through your diet thread again and Ill try to shave as much weight as possible without touching the interior. How much do you weight do you think I can save?

Buying a mt car and swapping parts is a stretch and I wont rule it out but its not happening anytime soon.

Im going to give the aftermarket converter a try. I found a converter for 200$ from an 04 with 25k miles. I spoke Import Performance Transmission about the upgrade. Im sending them the oem unit and have them work their magic.

I explained the problem us auto turbo guys are having with drivetrain loss. IPT basically told me that if dyno numbers are what Im after then their converter will NOT solve the problem. However, they did say I would see a rather significant increase in mph down the quarter. Anywhere from 5-10mph.

Now I have to decide what stall speed to get. I was thinking 2800-3000. How does a higher stall speed effect drive-ability? I do at least 80% highway driving. My understanding with a high stall speed on the highway was that the converter will not lockup unless your above the stall speed. IPT told me that since we have an electronic clutch (I think thats what he said) lockup will occur regardless of the stall speed.

http://www.importperformancetrans.co...ter.-1732.html

pass427

Glad to see we still have the heavy hitters in the forum still helping out still ...
Ihc, inaccurate what is your theory on the auto as far as everything we've seen so far both were in range of 400+ whp we are looking into it but not having a our own auto as we did with manual we can only use the time we have and figure out what's the best whp for the auto or a fix ..

pass427

Glad to see we still have the heavy hitters in the forum still helping out still ...
Ihc, inaccurate what is your theory on the auto as far as everything we've seen so far both were in range of 400+ whp we are looking into it but not having a our own auto as we did with manual we can only use the time we have and figure out what's the best whp for the auto or a fix ..

libert69

iTrader: (7)

2 posts regarding changing the stall speed. IHC and Inaccurate, whats your take on this?

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=20

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=16

Inaccurate

About the only thing i've read in this thread that's accurate is "leave the stall alone." These converters are fine as I've never heard of issues with them.

Special situations call for special measures. The oem converter is fine for a normal TL. But, the turbo is finding limitations with the oem converter perhaps.

If you change the converter to stall at a higher rpm, you'll possibly run into more problems than I couldn't possibly think of.

Not true. Higher stall converters have a purpose. If your setup can benefit from a better converter (higher stall), then the higher stall will turn a Turd car into a super hero (performance wise).

One issue to consider is if you change the stall to say 3500 or 3000, think about your gas milage. Your cruising at 65 mph and normally your rpm are 2500 give or take a few.

True. Mileage will suck big time unless the lockup was able to still engage.


Your torque converter won't be locked up therefore spinning more R's to hold the same speed.

We don't know if this is true ar not. We do not know how the ECU would handle a higher stall... will the ECU still engage the lockup?

Think about daily driving from light to light, you'll be spinning 3500 rpm to get the car moving. In the days when muscle cars roamed the streets with built motors and small converters, (gas below the dollar mark) you could always tell who had a stall and who didn't. The car would move with the motor revving it's guts out. The high stall was made for the radical cams that had issues idleing at a stop in gear as well as letting the motor get to an rpm where the cam would work it's best, in it's power curve. It helped make the radical cam street cars more streetable. Also, who knows what the ecu is going to do with a new converter with this stall.

All true.

The stall of the new converter depends on a few things, weight of car, torque motor puts out. there are three measurement to stall, true stall, foot brake stall and flash stall. it gets lengthy to explain.

True but not really that complicated. For example, a "3000 RPM converter" will stall at roughly 3000 RPM. Very rough estimate. Some trial-and-error might be involved in finding your perfect stall converter.

Bottom line, I'd just leave it alone and save the money for other performace gizzmo's. I don't think it's a good idea.

Bottom line is the same as my opening line = Special situations call for special measures. The oem converter is fine for a normal TL. But, the turbo is finding limitations with the oem converter perhaps.

Majofo

Inaccurate

basically, the higher the stall RPM, the more slippage the torque converter experiences. this means the torque converter will be less effecient as the the load on it increase. this also translates into heat buildup. remember, to allow the torque converter stall to be higher, it must be allowed to slip more. ask dr. evil about it, it's a common issue, and unless you are running a drag car, i'd recommend leaving your stock stall on your acura TL. the torque converter you will get from him will be a tighter stronger converter. this means same stall, but stronger and less heat build up.

True for the most part. But, the turbo'ed 5AT is a totally different ball game. You will need to maybe sacrifice good gas mileage in order to make the turbo happy. A higher stall will produce a lot more heat. So a cooler is mandatory.

I ran a 10-inch 3500 RPM converter in my IROC car for years. I loved it.

But, we don't know how the ECU will handle this. So please remember, you are conducting an experiment if you do get a higher stall.

I hate cars

That's terrible ignorant advice (the other threads, not Inaccurate lol).

You can choose a lock or non lockup converter. I can say from experience, the city mpg will drop, the freeway will be identical if you use a lockup converter. I highly recommend a lockup if you do lots of freeway driving or a huge cooler in it's place.

High stall converters don't grab until a higher rpm but once you get into the throttle and the rpms come up, they are MORE efficient than stock converters with less slip. The converter I currently run is a non lock and it shows only 1% slip under full throttle at high rpms. Stock can show up to 25% slip when not locked. This guys is crazy, not taking into account every torque converter is terribly inefficient when you're stopped or barely into the throttle. When you're sitting at a light it's 0% efficient. It's still making a little heat and trying to push the car forward but the car isn't moving. It's not until you hit the gas that it starts getting efficient. The high stall is the same way but you're pushing the rpm in which it becomes efficient up to a higher rpm.

A car with a reasonable stall, say 3,200rpm and below won't just sit there until you rev the hell out of it. It will still move when you take your foot off the brake and it will still accelerate below 3,200rpm. When I had this stall, my rpms would hover around 2,600rpm just keeping up with traffic. My father has a 4,500stall in his GN and it definitely spins a fair amount of rpm taking off but it's still not as bad as this guy tries to make it out to be. In all honesty, there's no reason to use anything higher than a 2,800-3,000 in the turbo TL with the PTE-61 turbo. With a 3,000rpm converter, the turbo will be ready the instant you hit the gas whether it's from a dead stop or from a roll.

Honestly, this will make or break the turbo 5at. With a good converter you will put more power down and make less heat at full throttle, more heat during normal driving. The car will feel like it lost 1,000lbs when taking off from a dead stop. The turbo will spool much quicker and you don't have to worry about boost coming in too early and hurting the engine because the rpms can't be below the stall speed when you're in boost. You learn how to drive a high stall a little differently. You learn to get up to speed a little quicker and then back off so you're not just slipping away and building up heat while barely accelerating.

Lockup will occur when the ECU tells it to so stall speed doesn't matter. It will be more noticeable when it locks.

I'm tired and my head is spinning right now, I'll come back tomorrow and clarify and add some details. But I want to stress how important the right converter can be. It will feel like a different car, especially since it's turbocharged. The only thing I worry about is using a modified stock converter. It probably won't solve any power losses and it probably won't be any more efficient up top so it might not improve mph at all. When you remove your stock one, I suggest sending it to one of the prominent Domestic converter builders. Tell them what you want and you'll probably get a little 9" or 10" converter that will make it rev like an indy car and have a huge increase in efficiency under boost. The only thing I'm afraid of is a modified stock converter might give you a taste of how good the highs stall is but you might be a little disappointed too. I'm only guessing since you will be the pioneer. I hope I'm wrong. I have some hookups and I'm more than happy to help. I'll be glad to cover some of the costs out of pocket just to see this project go through.

Majofo

Bert, I thought you were going MT?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Now Im getting confused here. I thought that sending your stock converter to shop and having them modify the internals and re-using the shell was the proper way of upgrading the converter to something that would be more efficient?

Import performance transmission has 2 options.

1)Core Charge- I am ordering an IPT Trans supplied torque converter core (Add $200.00)

2)No Core Charge- I am sending my existing converter to IPT for rework and modification

"IPT is able to custom modify your converter to suit the characteristics of your vehicle. Improved bearings, lock up clutch material and furnace braised fins yield a tremendous increase in strength and durability. **Please note that this is a modification service- you must ship us your existing converter.**"

So if I choose the first option, I am buying one of their custom non oem converters that will hopefully work with the TL? Doesnt option 2 sound like a safer bet?




Why is that?

So if I choose to go with sending in my converter to have it modified, help me make a list of what I should tell them I want done.

1)lock-up converter
2)3000 stall
3)?
4)?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Im still considering it. But if a 600$ converter upgrade helps out the auto trans issues then I would rather try this first then spend 5k+ on a 6sp and a clutch

I hate cars

Sorry, I knew I wasn't being clear last night. Way too tired to be posting.

So are they replacing the entire core, stator and everything? If so, that's fine. I was ASSuming last night that they were reusing the stock internals and changing the angles slightly. If that's not the case, it should be awesome.

There are a couple different types of services. Some are as simple as changing the stator angles and decreasing efficiency so it stallls higher. This is not the way to do it if you can help it. Usually you go with a smaller diameter converter which raises the stall speed while keeping efficiency or even raising efficiency.

There are no absolutes and after seeing what they do, I would feel a lot better about going with one of those converters.

The only thing I could think to add to that list is an anti-ballooning plate but they can determine if that's needed or not.

Any idea of what the stock outer diameter is of the TL's converter?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

^I just called IPT again. They said they change the stator angles to increase stall. They use upgraded bearings, and something along the lines of heat treating the parts?? Cant remember.

They do not have smaller diameter converters that will work with for our application and advised against it anyway. The tech said a smaller converter would likely cause problems and show much more heat build up.

Dont know the diameter of the converter just yet.

Even if this converter does not help with all the drive train loss us turbo autos are experiencing, from what ive read, a higher stall on a turbo car should make a HUGE difference performance anyway

Looks like Im going to give this a shot and see what happens. Keep all this good info coming my way

libert69

iTrader: (7)

heres a question....knowing that the trans shop is just changing the angles on the oem stator and re-using the core etc, would you feel more comfortable sending them a used oem converter with 30k miles on it OR a re-manufactured oem converter with unknown miles?

I only ask b.c the re-manufactured converter is half the price of the other one

bouncer07

Hello guys, I used to have a 2006 Civic SI that was turbo. Coming from a TL 6speed manual I'm hoping to see 12-15 psi on this motor. If the K-series dual cams can do 450whp on stock internals, I can see the J-series single cams do 500whp no problem on stock internals. Alot of people say 8-10psi max, that was an era of 10 yrs ago on small engine cars that's outdated. This generation is all about what turbo you put in it and tuning the turbo can be as 18psi on a relatively safe DD depending on turbo sizes. But I'm a total noob to this J32a TL that I'm re-learning almost everything. If there was a demand out on cams, I'd love to get this car stage 2 cams that will wake up some power for us V6 owners. But chances are, many TL owners are more laid back and 30+ yrs old, or just not into modifications. Only weakness to this is that Honda/Acura tend to have weak transmission when it comes to Turbo. I've seen many 06+ SI with blown transmissions. I'd be suprised 500whp TL's would be doing the same without upgrading it.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Way off topic but I just watched an episode of xtreme 4x4 on Spike TV. They just pumped 65lbs of boost into a Duramax diesel!

900+ HP and 1600+ ft/lb TQ at the crank!!!!!

On topic, has anyone gotten a good filter solution for the new J&R piping?

My downpipe is really close to the ground now so I want to see if I can make it a bit higher.

Majofo

The duramax diesel is a beast.. Some crazy assholes order crate DD's for their project cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1GnEAaubKk

I hate cars

I used to hate it when people put V8s in these things. Here's an all time low. I wish he lived a little closer to me.... To his credit I think it's not an original turbo car, just a clone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2t6BK3E_0

Majofo

I can understand a GS, but a GN?

Hopefully not.