GoHawks

So what if they borrowed? Was the Lexus design in the late '80s and early '90s really that ground breaking, even by the standards back then?

Up until recently japanese brands, while reliable and extrememly efficient compared to the competition, were criticized for lacking soul.

Hyundai is being smart. They're learning how to build handsome quality cars FIRST. Once they get that right, then they can afford to become a little daring.

Some might argue that the current L-finesse design theme Lexus is employing is the first time they're actually stepping out and creating distinguishable cars.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

See I think thats where this car might become a problem. The average everyday buyer probably isnt going to want a V8 right now because of gas and the people who actually dont care about gas prices probably arent gonig to want a hyundai. However you never know so we will see how the car does.

elessar

I hear what you're saying, BUT... (1) Volkswagen's have had a ton of electrical and mechnical problems lately, whereas Hyundai's reliability has grown by leaps and bounds the last few years; (2) the RL's sales have supposedly suffered due to its lack of RWD and a V8; and (3) I believe I read somewhere that a "nicely loaded" V8 version of the Genesis would cost around $35k - about the same as a TL. Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't buy one right now, mostly because it doesn't have an AWD option (yet), but I think this car will be a hit. As others have said, think of it as potentially an early Lexus. I'll definitely test-drive it.

dwboston

It's more a comment on the brand and its ability to move more upscale than the particular merits of the Genesis. Lots of people will give lip service to checking it out based on the specs but it's another matter to spend $40k on a Hyundai.

Chas2

Interesting article in the Washington Post on the Genesis, which actually was sourced in large part from the Wall Street Journal.

You wonder if Honda/Acura should take some notes here from the company that positions itself as a cheaper alternative to Toyota and Honda. Indeed, the WSJ writer does not even acknowledge that Honda has a luxury brand, but certainly mentions Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti in the same breath.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1199...ature_articles

Anyway, an interesting, though long, article about the pressures Hyundai feels, and its decision to go upmarket, while at the same time overcoming the perception of being a value car brand.

Benchmark for the Genesis are supposed to be Lexus, with a little BMW 5 and MB E class thrown in, as we can tell from the design. Vehicle navi/sound system are by Harman/Becker, the automotive division of Harman International (Harman/Kardon, Infiniti, JBL, Mark Levinson, etc.)

The article closes by describing an ad run by the new luxury division of Hyundai, whose wings are reminiscent of Chrysler and Bentley. In the "...TV commercial, Hyundai depicts the Genesis sedan in a 100-kilometers-an-hour crash against an Audi A8. Both the German car and the Korean one end up crumpled, almost indistiguishable -- a strong message for a market conditioned to believe domestic products are inferior." The Washington Post article has a few more details, such as this quote from the commercial..."There is no compromise on the way to the best. In order to go beyond the best German car, Genesis."

My guess is that this Korean commercial may be what is described above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0O2-9JPoGI

It is interesting that the A-8 is considered the best. Maybe its the AWD? I hope that Acura has a good plan for the future, not just for the FMC RL, but the entire car line, or the next twenty years could be awfully painful for Acura.

TampaRLX-SH

Since Hyundai's aquisition of KIA, there has been a decided move to take Hyundai more upscale to take on the Japanese premium brands. The Veracruz was pretty impressive and I expect the Genesis models to continue the 'wow this is a Hyundai?' trend.

KIA is now slotted to be the budget brand and Hyundai more upscale. There was / is talk of creating a premium brand for the Genesis models. I don't think there is enough ramp up time to market a new badge and get the recognition, but I like the Hyundai adverts to make us rethink the Hyundai brand...very clever.

But if Hyundai wants to be a Premium-Asian-Value brand, I think Acura has the most to worry about. And looking at the Genesis sedan, I agree there are obvious nods to MB, BMW and Lexus styling cues. But personally, the car I see most prominant in the styling is our generation Acura RL.

static808

This is a pretty nice looking car. Hyundai, yes. Would I pay $40K for this, no. Honestly, it looks like they shipped over an RL and Infiniti M. The back quarter panel and butt look like a M35 and the Front is more RL / Mercedes looking.

This will only make Acura and Infiniti and to a lesser extent Lexus kick it up a notch. For the next RL and other refreshed and new Acura models will need to add alot more features and give it a distinct look. I can also see Acura dropping more $$ into the dealers.

Acura had a bad year and sold 180K cars with 5 models (TSX, RDX, TL, RL, MDX). Not bad. I don't think Honda/Acura are going to make similar mistakes as the Big 3 but Hyundai is sure trying.

One last note: the biggest problem will be dealer service. This, I presume will be sold at a Hyundai dealer. As a colleague of mine said when he bought the Chrysler Crossfire, "love the car, but its a Chrysler dealer handling my $35K+ car and that isn't luxury.."

geronimomoe

One of my biggest concern's about buying anything from a Big 3, dealer service (or lack there of)....

krio

Acura has to fear only itself.

Yes, Audi too, 15 years ago in Germany was considered inferior to Merz and BMW, and now is the one of the best selling brend in Europe (A4 and A6) and one of the most respected.
But I don't believe that Hyundai will get the quality of german and japaneses cars.
They are not aiming at their market, they are trying to get good copies.
To be LIKE something or someone is not to be.
I don't like Hyundays cars, as Kia or anything koreans.
I don't mind if Hyundai will be the 5th or the 2nd car maker in the world.
I like the Honda philosophy of building cars.
I don't believe in the Hyundai philosophy: cheap and great, cheap and qualitative.
A V8 for 35 bucks? Buy it. Drive it.
What? Hyundai is the only clever car maker on the market?
The only ones that had the bright idea trying to fool people with the dream with the slogan "great as a Lexus for the half price"?? They are the firsts?
Than we have to believe that Porsche 911 fear Nissan GT-R, beacause you get "the same car and performance for the half price"?? Bull shit.
That is what press likes writing about.
Until now, UNTIL now Hyundai didn't present only a single car, ONLY one worthy talking about, worthy of memory and pride.
They are cheap, they look cheap, they HAVE TO BE cheap, and sold for 30.000$.
When Audi got the first V8 in the Audi A8 4.2, they sold it for 30.000$ for beating the concurrence of BMW and Merz? I don't think so...
Than we have to believe that we will be driving in 10 years only chineses cars, for the reason that China will be the stronger car maker in the world, and their cars are cheaper that Hyundai?
The Genesis is the first Hyunday car that looks normal. Looks.
We can be sure.
Next year Hyunday will present a V12 6.0L for 40.000$.
We have only to wait.
Waiting for this miracle I'll be driving a TL 09, trying to feel sad...

Rexorg

The first "foreign" car I ever drove was a Hyundai some years ago as a rental. I was expecting a POS, but was surprised at the quality for such a cheap car. While it was basic transportation, it was several thousand dollars less that most "domestic" cars of its class. Carmakers hate the Hyundais of the world and the trend will continue when China figures out how to make good cars. How does Hyundai do it? Well, they have lower costs to build (no insurance, retirement, or profit sharing costs) and they don't make that much profit off of each car. I would guess the MSRP of most cars is probably double, if not more, what the car actually costs to build. Therefore, a $50K RL has $25K of profits going to Acura, the hauler, dealer, etc. If I can get a Hyundai for $35K that is as good as an RL you can bet I will buy it, and so will thousand of others. It's just good economics, and I can buy a lot of gas with the $15K I saved. While "greed is good", it doesn't help to sell RLs. As I say to car salespersons when I am not about to accept their rock-bottom price, "Some profit is better than no profit." Funny, the price gets lower in a hurry.

krio

As good as an RL? For 35k? Buy it.
Than people that bought cars for 50.000$, as Lexus GS, or Infiniti M, or Bmw5, will shot themself asking: Why I was so stupid for spending 15k grands more then for a Hyundai?
Only the Hyundai guys makers are clever and smart, cheap and qualitatives.
The Hondas ones, Lexuses, Infinitis, are only trying getting more money from us. Interesting.
Acura, believe it or not, is a LUXURY brand, maybe with some big flaws, but it makes great cars.
The RL/Legend in Europe costs 56.000 euro ( 80.000$).
But when people buy Honda they know what they are spending for, when you buy Hyundai you really don't know what it will be after 2 months...
You are speaking of a car that nobody drove until now, the Genesis, and of a car maker that until now is not considered better than Fiat, that makes good cars too, you know.
The cars that Fiat get with V8, V10 or V12, call themselves Ferrari or Maserati.
No bad cars at all. And they are not cheap as Fiats Grande Punto or Cinquecento. A little 10 times more. And people buy them.
When we'll get test drives of the Genesis, comparing tests, quality reports we will talk about something.

White92

Trust me. Between this spring and 2010, it will be a VERY cool time for Acura and it's fans.

neuronbob

I'm sure hoping so. I've got my eyes on the Caddy CTS (V maybe) but am holding off to see what Acura's cooking up.

elessar

Yup, I agree. Their reputation is a big hurdle that they will have to overcome, but I've seen them make big strides with the Sonata, so who knows how far the Genesis will take them. I think more people will spend ~$35k on a super-lux Hyundai than would spend ~$60k+ on a VW (the Phaeton you mentioned before). Especially with that warranty, and the fact that their reliability has been going up rather than down. Time will tell, of course.

BTW, I did see some rumors online yesterday that they may be adding an AWD option, which would make me consider it a little more seriously for myself. I'm now very anxious to do some heavy comparison shopping between the Genesis and the refreshed RL this year.

Mike_TX

The CTS is very impressive, Bob. We're looking at one for the wife, and that DI engine is great (and runs on regular if you're so inclined). The seats are comfy and the interior is better than any GM car I've ever seen. Handling is also excellent.

Also, while the nav does lock you out to some extent when moving, it DOES at least give you two screens (10 items) of "nearby POI's", which is enough for most situations. And their nav graphics are stunning ... far better, I must say, than Acura's OR Lexus's. And their VR even understood me on the first try.

It's a compelling package!

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William4

If the Cadillac CTS-V ends up being available with Adaptive Cruise Control then I'm going to trade in my RL on one. I can't stand that ugly analog clock, but the 550HP makes up for it.

ssim3

For 550 HP I could apply the brakes & not trust a computer.

GoHawks

The CTS will be the first domestic car in a long time that will get serious consideration from me when it comes time for me to trade-in my RL. I'm really impressed by the package.

krio

how much do you think it will be cost?
looks really impressive...
0-60mph in 3.9 sec. it's monstrous for a sedan.

krio

in caranddriver predict a 60.000$ base price for the CTS-V.
6.2L, V8, 550 hp, 750 Nm.
For such a monster it's a bargain.
The only more powerful sedan in that class will be the next Audi RS6 with 580 hp., 650 Nm. But it's heavier and longer, and will not so fast as the CTS.
And it will cost 2 times more.
Acura and Honda where are you??

Chas2

I took a look at the CTS at the San Diego Auto Show based on comments made here and reading the car rags...er, mags. I must agree that I was mightily impressed by all aspects of the car. It is much better than I imagined, and dare I say, world class. It is a far cry from GMs of the not too distant past. In fact, I was very impressed with the direction GM is headed as evidenced by their cars and trucks.

I have said this before....Unfortunately, as much as I was impressed by GM, I have to say I was very disapointed by Ford.

GoHawks

GM is definitely on the right track. They have a hit in the CTS, and they are having a real hard time keeping up with the demand for the new Malibu.

I read a recent article that GM is actually worried about the inability to keep up with demand for the Malibu because they fear people will just walk over and buy an Accord or Camry if they can't get a Malibu. Accords and Camrys have the reputation, people won't be willing to wait for a GM product yet.

When was the last time GM had that kind of a problem.

The Buick Enclave is also selling well. A co-worker of mine has one. We had to take a mini-roadtrip and I rode with him. I have to say that I was impressed.

The Enclave platform is the same used in the GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook. Both handsome SUVs.

Their interiors have finally improved from the "Interior by Playskool" days. If you're going to the auto show, sit in an Arcadia, and then sit in a leftover Trailblazer. The difference is like night and day.

Now the key is to see how well they hold up over time.

I live in the suburbs between Ann Arbor and Detroit, and I work in Dearborn Michigan, in the shadow of Ford headquarters. I know several people who work for them and they admit that Ford has a lot of work cut out for them in coming out with exciting products. THeir quality as improved, but what is it that you can get excited about? The new Focus, the upcoming Ford Flex?

It's going to take more than that.

THe only company worse off than Ford, is Chrysler. They better hope the new Challenger provides some halo effect, because aside from that, they got nothin'.

Chas2

Wild rumors abound on the new Acura line up. I make no representations other than to get us back OT since I have gone on a tangent several times

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...sage_id=731672

Excerpt:

RL-The only thing that is the same on the outside is the doors and the roof....lots more wood on the inside including the steering wheel..More power to the rear wheels when accelerating .......
......the new RL MMC looks wise is rumored to resemble the BMW 5 series with much larger grill...........Head lights and tail lights are smaller and thinner.........
Also rumor is that the same 3.7L V6 in the MDX will be transplanted in the RL to make around 330hp.


UPCOMING THROUGH 2014

-V8 sedan wont be RL renamed

-V8 SUV to compete with the Big Lexus LX470 correct me if im wrong

-NSX V10 fall 2010 as 2011 model and yes $100,000+ price tag

-A 2-door Coupe in the $60,000 range

All the upcoming Acuras will not be on Honda platforms anymore they are all new ones the 09 TL is the First to have it.

dwest1023

As is the habit for me, I looked at the new Malibu, to see what all the hoopla was about. I am sorry to say, I would buy a Camry, or Accord over it ANY day. The car look cheap to me. I did not even bother to test drive it. The salesmen was trying to tell my how much GM paid attention to detail, by showing me some little GM stamp inside the head and tailights

On the other hand, the CTS is truly a great car, that I would consider to buy.

GoHawks

Have you ever been in a new Camry? Especially the mid-trim LE? Our other car being a Toyota (Land Cruiser) I have been given a Camry as a loaner on a couple of occasions. It has nothing on the new Malibu.

I'm just talking about look and feel, not long term reliability. The Accord (subjective styling not withstanding) has raised the bar quite a bit since I feel it takes interior stying cues from the RL.

My point is not that whether the Malibu is better, but more so that it is possibly in the same ball park.

Is being in the ball park enough? We'll have to see, but GM is on the right track.

Quite honestly, the domestics are going to have to aim past the competition, not at it to succeed. This is my opinion.

They have to build something that will just be too difficult to ignore.

That's what Lexus did with the 1st generation LS. They offered Mercedes Benz content and performance for thousands of $$ less.

People just had to look at one.

I don't think the Malibu has done that, but the CTS might have.

krio

The next 2 door coupe, or the one derived form the next TSX, or the new CL derived from the next TL, have to cost less than 60.000$.
No reason to get a NSX for 100+$, and another coupe for 60+$.
More realistic for Acura something very near to the G37 Infiniti, 35-42.000$.

dwest1023

I agree, the Malibu, is much better than previous versions, but I still do not see it on the level of Camry or Honda, not to mention reliability. I Agree that GM appears to be on the right track, especially with the CTS. Its the only CAR I have driven that could sway me from the RL, but the new RL would have to drop the ball, for me to switch. This new Hyundai, has really got my interest, and with the economy the way it is now, I think it might cause a little shake up. All that luxury for less then 35K is going to be hard to pass up. I will definitely take it for a test drive before deciding on the new RL.

Chas2

Another rumor on the same thread.

"This just in. A very HIGH PLACED SOURCE who has actually seen the new RL said that the rear end is looking like a 6series BMW with more space on the inside of the car with more rear seat room. Signifcant body changes are also on the block. 3.7l 302hp engine with an additional 25lb of torque directed to the rear wheels. 19in rims coming with real time weather built into the navigation. Look for the Chicago Auto show press conference for additional info. "

Don't know exactly what is meant by an additional 25 lbs ft of torque to the rear, maybe the engine makes 280 lbs ft of torque? Maybe more rear whell bias?

Mike_TX

You didn't say where this came from, but the rumors continue to be interesting.

We have been expecting the MDX's 3.7-liter for some time, but a 12 hp increase would hardly register - even with the 25 lb.-ft. of torque - because the additional weight that will almost certainly accompany the upsizing will pretty much cancel out this small increase in power. Too bad there's not something on the order of 335-350 hp and 300 lb.-ft. on the menu.

And while I know some of you like the size of the RL just like it is, I'd like to see some meaningful increase in dimensions. The RL's styling is outstanding, but you have to admit it looks dwarfish when you see it next to other luxury sedans. Part of it is the rounded and tapered front and rear fender lines, but most of it is just the fact the RL is a mid-sized car in a market that apparently wants full-size cars.

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SpicyMikey

You still here? I thought you'd be spending all your time on ClubLexus by now

Keep in mind this has turned out to only be an MMC. That can't do THAT much with the size if the platform is the same. I have a feeling most of these changes in size are minor. Not sure how much weight will be added to this version (but I can't wait to find out). Regardless, I also suspect teh extra HP certainly isn't going to change the ride characteristics of the RL at all

Mike_TX

Yeah - breakin' up is hard to do, and my membership is paid up through 2010.

I'm still interested in seeing what they do with the RL this year. But what they do with the FMC is what I'll really be watching.

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SpicyMikey

Just kidding. Hope you hang around

I'm not going to make any moves on this MMC since my RL will only be 1.5 years old. But, I'm with you on the FMC. I'll be looking at that real close in a few more years.

Touge

I was hoping for more than '302' hp, but at this point there all still technically rumors. Can't wait till the detroit show to see the new RL. 19's stock is still surprising to me, but if it turns out to be true that would be great!.

Chas2

Comes from the same TOV thread, just add on posts from today.

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...sage_id=731672

They are discussing that like crazy, down to claiming the MMC has only two body panels the same, the front and back doors, everything else is different.

That is hard to believe for an MMC, but if the RL goes for 9 years like to old one did, maybe not, especially if the other rumor is true that they will introduce another sedan with a V8 that will not be a Legend/RL.

The 3.7 is believable, as is biasing more power to the rear. If the rear diff can take it, then that is probably a software change. The 19 inch wheels, I don't know about that. That seems so un Honda like. The five speed will still be a weak spot, but maybe software changes can at least fix the slow response from the manumatic, or add features to it, like having the paddles kick down tranny when the car is still in D.

Well I guess we will know more with the big auto shows coming up...but it is fun to speculate.

Rob144

While the last RL may not go down as a benchmark car, another Acura that lasted a long time comes to mind: the NSX. I just got my copy of Winding Road (an online auto mag) with a "look-back" article featuring the NSX. With a little more power, that car could hit the showroom floor today and be competitive in style and performance.

While the current RL may be somewhat pedestrian, I wonder if (and hope that) it will be seen a special car when time has passed. Like the NSX, I believe the current styling will wear quite well over time, and the car may be seen as a benchmark.

Rob144

neuronbob

I've got more than 302 hp in my car now. Interesting rumors. We'll know in a few short months.



This is probably my next car, price willing. I love the looks and the power for the price. I love Acura but the CTS-V has absolutely mesmerized me. The last time I was this smitten with a car was the 3G TL.....I put down a deposit on seeing the spy pix. I hope Acura comes up with something to mesmerize me as much.

(edit: deposit was on 3GTL)

fstshrk

I am still hoping for an RL with a 3.54L twin turbo diesel making 300 hp and 500 ft*lbs of torque with a 7 speed automatic getting about 20-22 mpg in the city.

halfaznguy87

"sigh" Dang the other guys are climbing the status latter except Acura.. Even Lincoln
seems to be rising up with their new MKS... I hope this summer really does it for Acura with the new TSX, TL, and face-lifted RL.. Or else more people might be considering moving on..

krio

It's strange Neuronbob the "diffident, distrustful" point of view from which in Europe we look at the american cars makers.
I have read VERY positive test drives of the new CTS, and of the Infiniti G37 too, in the USA presses... The CTS is Car of the year of Motor Trend, if I remember well... And I like very much the sharp lines of the car (Acura TL?).
In european magazines, and very important ones, Autocar, Car Magazine and EVO, the CTS got always not more than 3 stars and a half (of max 5), and such comments as "the first serious car similar in quality to the germanies, BUT... not so good, not refined as germanies, and STILL TO MUCH american".
The Infiniti G35 and G37 got more positives reviews, as "a cheaper and good alternative to the BMW 3 series...".
I reported some fragments of the reviews of 2 of the best (I think) european cars magazines, CAR, and AUTOCAR.

(I know this is a thread about the RL... however!)

CAR MAGAZINE:
The all-new CTS.... is now making big boasts about quality, not a word we'd normally associate with Caddy. The interior has a dash boasting a hand-stitched covering, something only normally found on posh Mercedes, while tolerances and tactility have been benchmarked against Audi. Do we believe them? It's a more credible claim than before, and production accuracy does appear miles better. The CTS also looks stylish, with cowled dials, an intentionally low scuttle and lots of night-time white-LED lighting. But the cheap thunk of the doors and the creaky, spongy seats reveal this will still carry a sub-5-series price tag.
Very good. While it’s true that models past were squidgier than a silicone boob pack, Cadillac knows it needs a European feel. First big achievement out on the road: crisp, quick-reacting steering, that’s mirrored by an agile front end. The helm is over-light but little input is lost in translation, and the immediacy with which it turns in is genuinely surprising. As is the taut ride, which knobbles like no Cadillac has ever done. Think M Sport BMW, S line Audi. It's that good.
It is the most viable US alternative to the German brands that dominate the executive car sector – and its appeal will be bolstered when the V6 diesel arrives. And if the rumoured 4WD 500bhp V8 CTS-V bellows into being, we'll have an intriguing cut-price M5 on our hands…

AUTOCAR: While this new CTS clearly looks like an evolution of the last, the sharp-edged, slab-sided look of the old car has been filled out and softened off. And to good effect - this new CTS looks more muscular, more dynamic and more sophisticated. Inside the transformation is very extensive, Cadillac making a serious attempt to match the quality, design and feature content of its European opposition this time around.Stylish, luxurious and fairly tasteful, especially inside. The attractively stitched leather upper dashboard, the fluently sculpted centre console and the night-time ambient lighting are all clues to the trouble Cadillac has taken with the CTS’s cabin. The interior is also spacious and well-featured, coming with a fine sound system and a truly excellent optional Bose outfit with surround sound.
And does it get anywhere near to challenging a 5-series? Certainly not for supremacy, or anything near it, but this is actually a pretty decent and engaging car. On the plus side, it handles very tidily – well enough to be quite entertaining on the right road – and has grip, fair body control, a measure of steering precision and enough zest to make brisk point-to-point progress. Neat handling makes it a restful companion when you’re in less of a hurry, too, especially as it’s a quiet and stable cruiser.
But there are some downsides, the most obvious coming with the automatic gearbox – optional, luckily – whose shifts are sometimes abrupt (usually when it decides to drop two gears rather than one on part-throttle), a problem heightened by a by-wire throttle that sometimes pauses briefly before summoning grunt. In Sport mode the transmission often decides that a thrashing 6000rpm is what’s required, until you manually shift up a gear. Luckily these faults aren’t too irritating in the normal setting. The manual transmission is vastly better, though most buyers will surely want automatic.
Other disappointments? The engine sounds moderately strained at high revs, where it delivers its strongest urge, and though quite brisk lower down, it never feels electrifyingly quick, despite a claimed 0-62mph time that looks pretty sharp. The ride can turn quite abrupt over more sudden bumps too, though Cadillac’s UK arm is hoping to soften this off a little by altering the damper settings. The suspension is generally quiet in operation though, as is the rest of the car the majority of the time.
Cold analysis will tell you that this car still isn’t quite up there with the class leaders, but it has enough assets to make it worth considering anyway, especially if you fancy something a bit more charming and different.

Mike_TX

Krio, it's important to remember this is a car designed and engineered for the American market first ... NOT the European market ... even though Cadillac would love to sell them in Europe, too.

American and European driving conditions (and customer tastes) are different, too, so American mfr's are not likely to build a TRULY European-style car for the American market. For that reason, the European automobile press is never going to be completely happy with most American cars (and most Americans are not likely to ever be completely happy with European cars, either).

Add to that the snobbery of European car mags (mainly the British ones), and I'm not surprised to see less than stellar reviews. For them, though, these are pretty complimentary reports!

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