krio

I agree.
Why Toyota Camry was never sold in Europe, for example?? Because europ. car makers fears the cheaper price and the very good quality of this kind of cars.
I was searching yesterday on Mobile.de the new A4...
Well, for finding a good one, with 3.2 engine, leather and so on, I went from the base 32.000 euro to 58-61.000 euros!! Everything is an optional.
Last time I asked to a dealer BMW if, at least, the wheel and the doors were standard or optionals...
Why, I would know, my TL has to cost HALF the price of an Audi A4? Because is made in USA?
I ordered 1 month ago the MDX 2008 Sport Entert., considering that a SIMILAR SUV in quality like the BMW X5 3.0 si, costs, with a good optional package, 70.000 euros... Do you feel the difference??

Tell me HOW MANY cars in my life I saw in Italy, France, England with STANDARD optionals like the Cadillac CTS, AWD, and 306 hp.... (we could mention too the Acuras or Lexuses). 2-3% of the lot.
The 10% of drivers can afford buying a car with leather, Bose, autom. transmission (in Europe people say that an AT is for women that don't know driving...), and so on.
The 75% of people buy ONLY DIESEL cars, "base - naked", and in the street the BMW, Audi, Mercs are 2.0L TDI, Kompressor CDI 220, 523i, 525d, 3.0TDI with max. 210, or 230 hp...
The Cadillac's handling is worse than a BMW5? It means that ALL drivers in Europe work at the Nurburgring and are parents of Schumacher.
A car fully loaded as the Cadillac is already almost a "supercar" here.
They say about the "engine" of the CTS not enough powerful or responsitive, when everybody goes on Peugeot, Citroen or Fiat with 1.2L engine DIESEL!
Your are right that is the snobbery of europeans...
[I]I have read that you own a Lexus LS460...
You know how much it would costs in Germany?
85-90.000 euro, it means about 125.000$ ...[/I]

neuronbob

You make some interesting points, krio.

Mike echoes what I would have said in reply. The CTS-V is simply, a badassed American sports sedan for people who don't want a European touch at all. I actually thought this kind of ingenuity was dead in the American auto industry. I am ecstatic that it's not.

Let's get back on topic, though, shall we?

I wish Acura would release ONE car like that. Having ONE car like that won't upset its CAFE balance much at all. I say again...mesmerize me again, Acura!

halfaznguy87

Amen to that

krio

Ok, sorry.
1 car will be a hit in 2008. The TL 2009. It will be a monster. I feel it. They are rocking it like a baby from the middle 2007, trying it in the Nurburgring as the MDX, because they want it strong, big and fast.
And it will be top secret till New York 2008. Acura put in this car everyt. knows about builing cars... It's the most important model in the range.
About the RL, I don't know. They spoke already about the V8 at the beginning of 2006. They renounced to a middle cycle refreshing in 2007 for the RL. I don't understand if, at the moment, Acura really believe in the future of this car and understand its right position at the top of the range...

neuronbob

It appears dealers are going to be able to order 2009 RLs shortly, beginning on 1/18/08, and this means they'll be on the lots in not too much longer. Here's the information I received:

The available colors:

Crystal Black pearl, Silver jade metallic, Grigio metallic, Tuscan beige, Alberta white, Platinum Frost, Opulent blue and Redondo red (bold are new colors or names of colors)

No more specific info than that re: drivetrain, pix, etc. I'm sure that will come to us sooner than later. The language used is interesting: "substantial redesign". Sounds like a pretty major MMC. I guess we'll see soon.

Thanks to our source, who has been dead-on in the past.

Mike_TX

Very interesting. Wonder if the additional functionality of the Nav system means a HDD-based system? That would mean some drive space available for music storage, and could also mean things like real-time weather, better graphics, faster route calculation, and/or NavTraffic auto re-routing.

The upgrade to the audio system is a good one, too. Could they be adding HD radio? BMW has it, so it wouldn't surprise me too much, especially given that Honda is usually on the cutting edge of new tech like that.

As we've been saying all along, it's gonna be interesting! (Even for us former owners. )

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Mike_TX

Oh, and I wonder about the Grigio color, too. I assume that's like Pinot Grigio, so it would be a wine color I guess.

That could be a nice addition to the color palette.

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JeffS

I was wondering that also and checked the dictionary.com. It says a color between black and white and then references grey. So I am guessing it will be Carbon Gray's replacement color and will be pretty similar in color.

Thanks Bob and the "source" for the info!!! Do you know if Acura still offers the same three interiors (Parchment, Taupe and Ebony)?

static808

Can't wait to see the new RL. Sounds like Honda spent a few pennies. Only if I had some spare $$$ to upgrade, if its all that its smacked up to be.

Chas2

Putting this bit together with all the other rumors makes this sound like one of the most extensive MMCs ever. The only problem with rumors are...they are rumors!

mg7726

i hope so, since automakers are moving to these systems. hope acura will provide HD radio, USB port for data/music uploads, and ability to modify navi waypoints a la google maps on the new TSX/TL/RLs.

neuronbob

This is no rumor, this appears to be the real McCoy.

Forgot to put that in the message. Yes, the interiors are the same color as before.

Edit: Similar info was posted on the TOV a few minutes ago.

cai06

09 RL arrival in April!!

See link

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=732167

SpicyMikey

I checked out the article on TOV that cai06 referenced. Great GREAT news about the RL coming so early. Our dealer friends really need this activity coming in the spring. About time.

I was a little disappointed to hear the new TSX will initially not have SHAWD. The article says that will come later. Not sure what "later" means but I think it should be a priority for Acura to move away from FWD. I've never been a fanboy of the RWD argument that many chant often. However, Acura really needs to get away from FWD. It screams economy car and hurts their image. It would also be a great way to put separation between Acura and Honda products.

neuronbob

See my post above yours, only i didn't link it as the info is the same.

Any case, hopefully the pics and details of the redesign will be released soon.

I am still hoping that the redesigned RL will be in Detroit for the NAIAS, so I can see it in person.

krio

Acura had to choose:
1) develop an 100% new platoform for RWD cars, and then eliminate the problem of torque ste. and the limit in the growth of power on the front wheels in the future. Alfa Romeo, for example, is thinking introducing step by step, TILL 2020!, only RWD cars, the new Junior, the wanderful Competition, the 149, the 159, beginning from the flagship sedan 169 (looks simply fantastic) in 2010-11...
But it's a long, hard road... And expensive.

2) develop a new generation of model range on the same FWD base, with standard Sh-AWD for the SUV the flagship RL, the TL and optional for the TSX 2009, till the next, not enough long awaited NSX, in 2010...

Acura took the second way.
Acura decided it was more clever to STAY FWD, but get a (great) AWD system for all the brand in few years... In normal condition this system for the sedans will be more "RWD" than front, for garantee better control and lighter nose...
(Interesting that from the new Audi A4 2008, Audi will get a new AWD system VERY similar to the Honda's one, front/rear, right/left... And Audi had always problems of heavy noses...)
The AWD has only a problem: the price.
In TSX STANDARD Sh-AWD would be very expensive, and the base price should jump up the 34-35.000$, as the RDX.
Than, we get 2 "packages": a base FWD base, with less power and Techn. package. And one with Turbo, SH-AWD Type-S and Techonology package.
And maybe a Turbo Diesel in the near future...
The TL could afford a standard AWD, without growing to much in the price?
Maybe yes, or Acura gets 2 engines for this car too, as the Cadillac CTS, or Acura get new rich packages, Tecnology & Sport, not for the base price...
The RL...
The RL really needs nothing except a richer package, a little more power, maybe a good suspention dumping system as the MDX (comfort, sport), 3 zone cl. control as standard, and more rear legs room.

SpicyMikey

I agree with your analysis krio, especially Acura's dilema with introducing SHAWD to the TSX. However, I really think it must be done for the brand's sake.

By the way, when I say move away from FWD. I mean use the current SHAWD system. I don't care if they continue to use a transaxle configuration. I also don't think it matters to most sedan buyers. My RL is the best driving car I ever owned (RWD cars included). The slightly extra weight bias to the front is irrelevant to me.

Redesigning everything to a true RWD based AWD system is unnecessary. It would not be a good business decision either because it would drive up the price for these products since the engineering and manufacturing processes would totally diverge from existing Honda processes and they'd loose the economies of scale that make Acura products such a great value.

jhr3uva90

So "Acura" has decided to give SH-AWD to the TL, which will make it heavier and more expensive? Oh well, that at least deals with the torque steer problem.

Funny how most of the major luxury brands offer RWD except for Acura and Audi. I guess we can expect them both to be near the bottom in sales, especially when it comes to the over $45K market. When will Acura/Honda realize that part of the reason why the RL sells so poorly is because many drivers want to choose NOT to have AWD? After all, most people who have some idea what AWD is tend to perceive it as something to use in snow. We know that SH-AWD is beyond that, but we are the minority. I really wish Honda would stop being cheap and just develop a new RWD-capable platform instead of bolting SH-AWD on the current FWD Global Midsize Platform.

SpicyMikey

Not to be argumentative, but how do you know the SHAWD is the reason most people aren't buying the RL? Is there a survey on that? I would think the most important thing is features and value (with image being in there somewhere). If the RL was a bad value pound-for-pound, then I'd agree they need to chuck the AWD to get competitive. But it's already the best value in the sector.

Also we have to remember this is the lux sedan segment. It's full of 30+ people with a few extra bucks in their pocket. I think the SHAWD can easily be marketed as a plus for the car -- NOT a negative. I say, leave the SHAWD alone, add more power, size, and distinctive styling and the RL will start to sell.

jhr3uva90

SH-AWD isn't the reason, but the lack of choice is a major reason. The RL's competition (Lexus GS, Infiniti M, etc.) offer the customer the option of AWD. Overwhelmingly, those customers choose not to have it, and you can actually find those numbers on line.

In my opinion, Acura loses sales because there are many potential customers who see that the RL has AWD, think "it doesn't snow where I live, so I don't need AWD," and then walk away from the RL. It is unfair, considering that SH-AWD system has little to do with snow, but that is how many laypeople perceive it. In addition, I wonder why Honda couldn't have a type of SH-RWD, which would share many benefits of their current SH-AWD and avoid the torque steer problem inherent in powerful FWD cars, but result in a much less heavy car.

Anyway, the market for AWD sedans is limited, especially in the RL's segment. That's PART (not all) of the reason why two of the lowest-selling cars in this segment are the Audi A6 and Acura RL, two cars where you are forced to have AWD.

Mike_TX

I think maybe what jhr is alluding to is that most people perceive that AWD adds unnecessary weight and complexity, adds to the price, and hurts gas mileage in the process. That's a hard sell for non-snowbelt buyers.

Okay, okay, SH-AWD helps even when there is no snow, but face it - you invoke SH-AWD on dry roads about 2% of the time. That's if you drive aggressively. And it's awfully darn hard to sell the concept to most people when RWD is considered the best-handling car platform.

Now, for you poor guys up North, SH-AWD is a bonus when the going gets white, but for the rest of us, it's a lot of clutch packs, gearsets and differential fluid to haul around so maybe we can get a little more torque to the outside rear wheel once in awhile when we're zooming around on a mountain road on vacation.

I'm willing to bet 98% of you guys wouldn't know the difference in your day-to-day driving if someone snuck out to your garage during the night and disconnected your SH-AWD (unless it's snowing). Sorry, but it's the truth. That's why Acura needs to offer it as an option, at least on the RL.

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Mike_TX

Sorry - my post appeared about the same time as jhr's.

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GoHawks

As much as I love the SH-AWD system, I'd have to agree.

I'll even go so far as to say MOST people who gravitate to RWD vehicles don't push their cars to the point wherre it makes a noticeable, much less functional difference.

It is about what the car can do, versus what I need it to do.

krio

Well, I would agree with you Mike, if we were speaking of RWD vs AWD.
They fell good 80% of the time as the same way, without snow or heavy rain...
But in the case of a (powerful) FWD car like TL for example, or of the A8 with 3.2L (only european version) with only FWD, you can feel the difference most of the time when you get away of a bend too fast, or you get a strong acceleration. The nose in the TL is very heavy in such situations, and in the A8 you feel it even more, because is bigger and wider.
With the RL you NEVER feel "loosing control", it's like a train on the rails. With the TL sometimes, I feel that the car can be out of controls...
And what Acura can do? A RL with only FWD? We have to consider too that the RL is a VERY heavy car...

GoHawks

Not much of an article, but confirmation of a diesel in '09.

Wondering if it will be in the RL.

http://info.detnews.com/redesign/blo...ex.?blogID=197

Honda to have new diesel in Acura in 2009

Honda Motor Co. will introduce an all-new clean diesel engine in the Acura brand in 2009, the automaker said.

President and CEO Takea Fukei said the I-Dtec diesel will be first introduced in Europe.

jhr3uva90

At this point, I wouldn't get an Acura TL precisely because it has a powerful engine and FWD. I remember renting an Infiniti G during Labor Day weekend 2004. After that, I swore I was not going to get another FWD car, because the RWD Infiniti was so fun to drive and didn't have a torque steer problem like my Acura CL Type S did. So basically, my options were to get an RL with SH-AWD or not get an Acura car at all. That's part of the reason why I have had a 2005 RL for nearly 3 years now.

I really wish Honda would just get with the program and develop a RWD platform like every other luxury brand. Hell, even Caddy has RWD cars now! The new CTS is getting more praise from the US automotive press than the TL ever got. I understand that it is cheaper for Honda to bolt SH-AWD onto the FWD Global Midsize Platform than to design and manufacture an all-new platform, but if they aren't careful, the Acura brand will be eating Infiniti's dust (and possibly Cadillac's as well).

Of course, that brings me to my favorite question: how important is the luxury market to Honda Motor Corporation? It seems to me that it isn't HMC's top priority.

jhr3uva90

Oh, and Acura already has a FWD Acura RL, they call it the TL Type S.

Ken1997TL

From a source I trust quite well, the RL is supposed to have a diesel option in the near future. This source is rather high up in the food chain.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

neuronbob

THIS is the most important question Honda (not Acura) should ask itself. Is HMC going to SPEND THE MONEY to properly place Acura as a luxury brand? We've discussed this many times here.

It takes more than fantastic products, as we have learned from the RL. The RL is a sales dog, but it's not because the car is terrible. It's not a Pinto or an AMC Gremlin, for goodness sakes. I am a great fan of the current RL and I still think all it needs is some low end torque and a huge serving of MARKETING. People need to know the car exists, why SH-AWD is the best thing since sliced bread (though not TOO much info, like how much it takes to activate it ....don't want casualties from bad driving....), and that these torque vectoring AWD systems that the Germans are testing were PIONEERED by HMC.

Which brings me to my point.....if HMC won't (I believe they CAN) spend the money to market Acura as a luxury brand, they might as well give up already. I mean, right now in the Automotive News section is an article that places Acura near the bottom of the pile in reputation. Even worse, Acura released a response to this Consumer Reports article that indicates SHOCK that this was an outcome. Talk about heads in the sand......I love my Acuras but wouldn't have found the brand at all were I not a Honda fan.

I mean, look at me, I am actually considering a CADILLAC the next time around. And this, after 18 years of buying Honda/Acura.

They'd better wake up in Torrance so they can take their priorities to the head guys in Tokyo. Jeez.....I feel like a Mac fan in the mid-90's, pre-Steve Jobs...I'm making the same arguments I made regarding Apple at that time.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now.

You may continue your regularly scheduled thread.

cai06

I agree with krio, the next TL is going to be a MONSTER –in a good way-, not only because Acura has been extremely secretive about it but also because it is the money maker sedan and specifically designed and built for the American market.

From all the recent rumors and leaks, it is obvious that Acura is moving up the entire line (V6 SHAWD option TSX??) which is a double edge sword if they don’t start fixing the “image” problem, it most likely will start to compete directly with more established luxury brands pricewise. Of course most of us know that bolt by bolt these are probably going to be as good -if not better cars- as the competition, however you also need cachet to make money and thrive in this segment.
Edit: agree with Neuronbob!

Seems to me that the 09’MMC RL is going to be what the 2 gen RL 2005 should have been from the beginning. The other luxury brands have been extremely bold and aggressive and Honda as always too conservative and green.

krio

Bob, don't get sad!
I don't know in the States, but in Europe, the few Acura that hit the roads, RDX, MDX and TL, are considered something like wanderful aliens.
Nobody says: Lexus is luxury, Acura is cheap. They put Acura, Mercz and Lexus at the same level.
Lexus, sorry! is considered for more old people, a japanese brother of Mercs, the Acura is like Audi, a more "intellectual, sporty luxury car".
A friend of mine, a professional tennis player, bought a Lexus ES 2007. When, first time he saw my TL, told me: "let's change please!! What a f.ing fantastic car you have!! WHAT is it? Where did you find such a car?"
The TL is one of the best good looking car on the market, even if it's 5 years old.
The RL is simply a HIT of technology and innovative features, BUT Acura didn't help at all it selling well. And it's considered one of the safest car in the world.
The BMW is luxury, right Bob?
Well, tell me why the luxury BMW5, the "best in its class" as say in Europe, got in the crash test only 4 stars... What? Where is, than, the building quality? You know that for a car of THIS class is a shame don't get 5 stars.
Acura knows very, very well HOW good a car has to be.
The marketing staff that works for them is a shame...
Tell me, how is possible get a BLIND year like the 2007, whitout ANY news at all about the Acura range models. Only SILENCE and boring rumors.
Audi, BMW, Lexus ecc. give all the time to their owners LITTLE, GOOD hints, informations... And they show pictures, images of future models.
They GOT fuc. clevers PROGRAMS, scheduled releases for EACH QUARTAL of the year, because they know HOW to take the market.
Audi is the BEST at the moment of all for cleverness: she got four DISTANT, SEPARETED big bombs in the last 2 years: TT, R8, A5 and A4. Bum, Geneva, bu-bum Frankfurt, bu-bu-bum Paris, than next Geneva. Simple and successful!
This year we get 3 cars from Acura, nobody knows when, why, how, which, one up another (it's SIMPLY STUPID) and NOBODY knew, till fews days ago, that it will be a RL big refrewshing in few weeks!!
When you look at Acura you think at the end, that even they don't know what will happen next week...

Mike_TX

No, Krio, I wasn't suggesting for a minute that the RL be made FWD. It needs to be RWD, with SH-AWD as an option.

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krio

Oh, that would be great...
Mike, look at the photos of the Audi R8 at Detroit V12 TDI... IT'S SIMPLY AMAZING!!!

neuronbob

As far as the RL being RWD with SH-AWD as an option....that ship has almost certainly already sailed. Maybe the FMC will be such a beast.

However, if this rear wheel-biased SH-AWD really is true....we're halfway there. You KNOW I'll be test driving the sucker in April when it hits the lots. (So will Mike, I'm sure. )

larrynimmo

mike is already spoken for

swift22

If the 09' can be ordered in a couple months and be delivered soon(in 08-this year) then you have to presume the RL will be debut at the chicago auto show. Otherwise the timeframe doesnt fit with the release of the model year.


any pics at all?

Mike_TX

Yeah, but that doesn't mean I won't be taking a test drive.

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krio

well, what about this?
on the V-tec site...

Acura will introduce the new i-DTEC clean diesel engine to the North American market in 2009. The i-DTEC engine reduces noxious exhaust emissions while boosting power and fuel efficiency. A combination of optimized combustion chamber design and reduced injection time results in a clean, quiet engine that delivers excellent performance for an enjoyable driving experience. In addition, the i-DTEC engine meets the ultra-stringent U.S. EPA Tier II Bin 5 emission standards without the on-board storage of urea.

The i-DTEC clean diesel engine is on display exclusively in the Acura booth at the North American International Auto Show and will be utilized in an Acura vehicle to be named at a later date.

well, will be right intruduce the I-Dtec in the MDX, is a SUV after all with more Nm, and in the RL. Why not?

One for sure: in Europe the next Accord-TSX will get 100% the I-Dtec engine.

ssim3

I agree wholehearted Mike. I bought the RL even though it had awd. My 1st choice in driving dynamics was the M , but the interior of the M turned me off. The RL was fine, but I unloaded it after a year for an MDX because the sales were tankng & my 26,000 miles a tear I knew my position would just worsen. I also needed the space of the MDX the rear seat ent is also a selling feature. The RL needs to add the functionality of listening to regular DVDs in 5.1 & the use of mp3 dvds like the MDX. So I traded & got 33k for my RL & got 2.9% money on the MDX. My next sedan will probably be RWD.

Rexorg

Just got back from having the recall done. No scratches or dimples.

Here is what I got from the Internet Manager:

Coming in April!!!

'09 will have all new body panels with exception of two, which I would say is hood and roof.

The '09 will have the new corporate grill, which I think means MDX style.

Raised trunk with more room with BWM look for rear with revised exhaust outlets, which I think means four.

More wood in interior and big changes for audio and navi.

Only engine will be the 3.7L from MDX with 302 HP.

New lighting system probably with LEDs for DRL and parking.

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'10 FMC will introduce a big, true luxury RL with V8 and Diesel.

Price of '10 RL will be $60K+ for base and around $70K for loaded model.

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The '09 TL will be not have AWD until the begininng of 2009.

The '09 TL will be a rocket!