CL6

Depends where you live...

neuronbob

I agree with you, I can afford a much more expensive car but so far have chosen not to buy one as I can get all those features in an Acura.

Acura definitely has a niche. They just need to market, as I keep saying. Unfortunately, if they don't get peoples' attention, Hyundai will eat their lunch as they are going to be offering their V8, RWD luxury car for around $40k

SpicyMikey

I live in Florida. Having now experienced the sure footedness of an 'always on' AWD system, I wouldn't really want a car without it anymore. Do I need it? No. But I don't need an automatic transmission either. These are features I simply want -- and am willing to pay for in this second tier price range. I don't think I'm unusual.

My opinion: I suspect the AWD is not the reason why the RL is a poor seller. In fact, Ii don't think it's any one (or two) things. It's a perfect storm of many things. That's why it's so hard to figure out and why we seem to debate this endlessly.

Rexorg

The problem with Acura is that too many people associate it to Honda. Honda came to this country as a small, cheap, economy car and the brand grew from there. Honda owners do not necessarily migrate to Acura, they stay with Honda. GM has Cadillac as its luxury brand. When they wanted an economy car they created Saturn. Saturn is never mentioned in the same breath as Cadillac. Cadillac tried with the Catera to offer entry level luxury. It bombed. The CTS with great styling, good power, and great marketing was and still is a hit after 6 years and only getting better. For Acura to succeed it must offer things that Honda does not, but that is almost impossible now. There is only one thing Acura has that Honda doesn't--SH-AWD, and 90% of drivers do not need it where they live. Why pay thousands for something you perceive is only good in snow country? You know the answer.

SpicyMikey

I associate Cadillac with GM. I associate lexus with Toyota. How come that doesn't hurt them as much selling CTS's and GS's?

Again, I'm certain it's more then that. It's more then ANY one thing. No offense Rex, but anytime someone writes "The problem with Acura is....", I roll my eyes and think; another simple explanation to a very complex problem.

dwboston

If Acura hasn't been that successful yet in moving the brand upmarket, I don't understand the confidence some folks seem to have in Hyundai's ability to do it. We've talked about the V8 thing here a lot and the fact that few of them are sold realtive to the V6 offerings in a given model line. With gas prices likely remaining high for the forseeable future and given Hyundai's brand image, I just don't see it being a huge success. People who can afford a $40k car don't buy Hyundais, car mags and enthusiasts aside.

SpicyMikey

True. I'm not ready to bet the ranch on the Genesis game plan. I can't see that being very successful in this image conscious country.

Most of us agree that PART of Acura's problem is that people associate it with an economy brand (Honda). What do we think is going to happen when someone tries to sell a $40k car with an economy badge DIRECTLY ON IT? That's a tough row to hoe.

Mike_TX

You know, I have to agree to some extent, but you've got to hand it to Hyundai for trying to move upmarket.

They have the choice of staying on the bottom rung of the automotive ladder or grabbing their bootstraps and pulling themselves up to the big times ... and they've picked the latter option. That's the American Way - even if they ARE Korean - and I think that's great.

Hyundai, like Honda, is a huge industrial conglomerate, and they have the resources to change their image. The Genesis looks like a giant step in that direction. It may take time, but at the rate they're moving, I have a feeling they'll do it.

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123456SPEED

I said Honda is losing the alternative fuels race. I should have said Toyota is generally perceived as winning in alternative fuels. Toyota hybrid sales and marketing are making people think that, and when Accord hybrid was dropped the perception was that Honda is failing, accurate or not. It's the image that is very important IMO.

I don't really see Acura having all these problems in their overall line. The RL does have a sales/image problem and maybe the RDX. Besides my major problem of no coupes, I think Acura has done very well with their sedans and SUVs. They are just at end of cycle for their main sedans.

I just wish they would stay near-luxury and not go upscale anymore.

Chas2

I suppose the lines are continue to be blurred. I was floored to see that Odyssey Touring is $40K, though I have not shopped minivans in awhile.

SpicyMikey

Very true. The top line Ody MSRP's for around $40k. But that's a little different. There are no top shelf brands making minivans. I had a Toyota Sienna XLE Limited that stickered for just under $40k. Road and felt like a Lexus inside. Just didn't have the cache.

Having said that, I wonder how many people are driving around in BMW X5's with their family of 5 when they really should be driving an Odyssey or a Sienna.

gavine

Mercedes Benz makes a mini-van....

SpicyMikey

That's news to me. Are we talking about a good old - sliding side door - step in - van?

Never saw one. Just did a quick search on MBUSA.com and didn't find one. Link or photo? Is it sold outside the USA?

dwboston

R-Class. No sliding door, but other than that, it's a minivan.

CL6

The R Class is a slow seller but it's a very good car. 1.9% APR on it now out to 72 months.

SpicyMikey

Never thought of the R as a mini-van, but, I admit it's somewhere between a mix of car, van, and SUV. Call it a Cross-Cross-Over maybe

123456SPEED

It's blurring so much, trucks, SUVs, crossovers, (just dont; call it a station wagon).
now there are coupe sedans, and that new BMW I never knew about, a cross between a coupe and SUV, the X6.

I generally like the coupe sedan idea, I think the RL has a touch of that styyling.

CL6

I find it interesting how the RL aka Legend used to be offered as a Coupe and a Sedan. I know the TL/CL supposedly took that over... but it looks like a market retreat somewhat. I guess to sell coupes you have to be at the top of your game due to the fact they are so impractical.

Chas2

I have a friend whose husband is Mercedes tech. He said all the techs in the shop uniformly make fun of the R because they cannot believe Mercedes makes a minivan!

On the more practical side, the only reason she drives a Mercedes is because her husband works at a dealer, and he can do everything after hours at no labor cost and great employee parts discount, when it is not warranty work, and there is a lot of that. E-Class wagon (for the Golden Retriever)

Rexorg

Please don't roll your eyes as they might just stick and I would feel bad. The point I was trying to make was GM (when GM was the king of kings) always had a plan for the car buyer. Chevy was the entry level, Pontiac was entry level with a little more sport, Olds was a family car and up level, Buick was a banker's car or for the mature driver, and Cadillac was the luxury brand everyone wished they could own, but only doctors, lawyers, gangsters, etc. drove, or could afford. Honda was a maverick, and I wish they still were, but as they became a king with the Accord they sat on their laurels. I guess Honda has a plan with the progression of the Civic, Accord, TL, RL, but I don't think many people realize that is the plan. The line is blurred now, plus there are many people who will not buy a foreign car, or at least there used to be. I have been driving since 1962 and I swore I would never drive a foreign car. Well, that changed in 2003 when I bought my '04 TL due to the raves of the reviews, etc. I probably would not buy an American car now, except for the CTS.

halfaznguy87

Marketing/Image - Like its been discussed when you have an Acura you're not really making a "statement" like you would with a Mercedes, BMW, and sometimes Lexus. People in this segment don't care much for value they wona make a statement. They are willing to pay extra for that badge. That's the only area Honda/Acura failed to address one thing -the image.

When I talk to a lot of people when they are considering buying a car I talk value. The best bang for your buck is an Acura. But they always reply "Yeah, I know, but it's a Mercedes/Bimmer/Lex."

Acura just needs to find a way to make themselves trendy, instead of the value leader.

Hopefully marketing is working on that.

swift22

a V8 RL would sell nicely despite gas because of the market it is designed for..however a hynduai v8 wont do well because like others have said if you have $40k you are going to put it in a realiable car retaining its value. Acura/honda would do better if they turboed a well equipped V6 such as nissan has done to keep weight and balance to the car. just my two cents.

black label

Man, that's the nicest Chrysler Pacifica I've ever seen .

123456SPEED

What's wrong with value?? I hate trends.

halfaznguy87

I didn't mean to imply that everyone is obsessed with trends, we're living proof. I'm just saying that most luxo car buyers consider brand image as a major factor when buying a car.

The same could go for the Toyota Camry. Everyone loves the Toyota Camry because of the image it protrays - "well-built, high quality, legendary toyota build quality, safe, japanese, and etc." plus it's a toyota. The Camry is pricey compared to its rivals, but people don't care because its image justifies its higher price and people will pay for it.

The germans know they have this "legendary german handling, rich heritage, and prestige." Thats their image.

Bugatti is doing this with the Veyron. I don't know if you guys know, but Bugatti is not making money on the Veyron. The purpose of the Veyron is to create Bugatti's image so it will trickle down onto their future products.

I, know, some of us don't care so much for that, but since we on the topic of why Acura is the underdog that's basically why. Acura needs to convince everyone else why it's cool to own an Acura besides the fact they are a great value. I think one way is the return of the NSX.

123456SPEED

Explained well.
I'm just frustrated that Acura keeps moving away from the car I want.

TampaRLX-SH

I've read, on several occaisions that a TSX coupe and convertible have been considered. Being cope and convertible products sell even lower volumes, it would make sense to offer a coupe and convertible variant in the least expensive model and play for better volume than a high end specialty model could produce.

I find my RL very coupelike in feel and look. And after the wonderful drive home I had today, it is official: I hope I hate the MMC RL, I love this model too much to be seduced again.

NorCalRL

I think we can all agree that Acura has more than one problem to contend with. Perhaps one of the largest is that they can't be everything to everyone. When they started their niche was to be the "value" alternative to the German auto manufacturers.

It's significantly different if they want to be the true Luxury contender today.

Once they decide on who their exact target market is and start developing both vechicles and messages to that target market, some people will be left out. That's the reality of being successful in the car business. That's exactly why GM created so many divisions; so that you could buy a GM product regardless of your income and need for a luxury image. When Cadillac strayed too far from their self-developed image, the products failed.

Acura has done a poor job in positioning the company in the last few years. That makes it difficult for anyone who doesn't already own a Honda or Acura to see where they fit in the scheme of auto manufacturers. I suspect that the vast majority if Acura sales come from existing Honda or Acura owners.

Honda does not have the same issues and continues to bring in new prospects from ourside the Honda family.

If Acura continues to use Honda as their main source of prospects, they are one step away from merging the two companies into one.

Ibn Rushd

I don't think that the problem with the Acura was a full time AWD system, simply because in all of Canada, AND the northern states, with cities like Buffalo, New York and Boston, theoretically, that'd be much preferred.

Here i see normally AWD IS250's more than the other two combined. Same with the GS, M35x, G35x and so forth.

However, in comparison, what is one thing that that the RL does not do that the GS, M series and even E, 5 do?

They are quicker or at least have a quicker variant of their lower model vehicles. Atleast they can keep up.

My uncle said it to me, and i laughed but he was kind of right. He told me he got owned by a TL and he became disheartened about the car, of course that first turn came and byebye TL.

But the fact remains, the more nimble feeling and the quickness of the car (By a second an a half) and even at higher speeds, the TL lifts and goes down much faster than the RL.

I've driven both cars to their fullest and the TL has more pull throughout.

No one who buys a car 15 thousand more (hell even 8 or 9 thousand more) wants to see some punk in a lower model come and destroy him on the highway.

Here in Canada, there aren't many twisties, and people normally do little speed burts on open highways, where there aren't really any turns.

The GS the base model, will not beat the IS350, but it will keep up with it fairly well. (What's the difference, .4 seconds? not even) The M45 will take out a G35 without a thought, i'm sure. Or atleast keep up.

550 (M5 will keep up with the M3), and E (E63 i believe is a bit quicker than the C version AMG).

My point is that in the end, with the TL having so much power and being FWD, on highway driving where normally you see this kind of "friendly racing" is on a straight stretch on a highway...and no one wants to pay 51k just to be left in the dust.


But maybe that's me...

I mean everyone knows about the marketing was poor, but the only problem was the car was underpowered, the fact that you got everything for cheaper than the competition was the bonus, but people who are looking for a performance luxury sedan (i.e RL, GS and so forth) usually want that performance part of the bundle

SHAWD is an awesome feature if you live in a place where you'll see it in action, but you still don't want to see a 20 year old punk (haha) come and take you out along with a string of cars on the freeway.


About the R class, for some reason that thing here is hard to get your hands on, i see atleast 10 a day. They love them up here for some reason.

Ibn Rushd

Bah I could not edit the previous post. Sorry for the double post.

I meant to say that there are tons of problems and the only problem was not that it was underpowered, but it also had other issues. There's too many problems to name as to why it didn't sell, we could keep saying and going in circles about it, but in the end, it's not in our hands either.

It could have been anything. Marketing, engine, no base model, overwhelming to some buyers, or just a poor car for the line up...

Atleast Acura/Honda has acknowledged that something was done wrong and they're making corrections for it. Atleast they didn't wait 15 years like they did with the NSX...and they still don't have a design for it.

CL6

Mr. Honda died and that's what happened to the NSX.

neuronbob

Not just the NSX, that's what happened to HONDA itself after Mr. Honda died . He was absolutely a visionary. Honda's a totally different company from when he was living, and not necessarily in a good way. They've become a LOT less of a risk-taking company than they used to be. I mean, Honda had to have some stones to start Acura in the first place. To build an "everyday supercar" like the NSX. Their marketing was pretty decent, too.

I think the current Honda/Acura is kind of what Apple would be without Steve Jobs. Witness the aimless, bloated, rotten Apple of the 1990's, with idiotic products with stupid names ("Performa 6100" ), deadlines never met for OS products, no sense of purpose, and tromped on deservedly by bigger companies. As much of a prick as he is reputed to be, Jobs obviously is a visionary and totally turned the company into a rock star on his return in the late 90's. (And made this shareholder very, very, VERY happy. I bought at $7 a share. )

CL6

I heard that he did not believe in passing things down in the family so his son didn't get a shot at running the company (his son apparently owns Mugen) and maybe that was not a good thing, either.

I guess the NSX was the sacred cow nobody dared touch but when it wouldn't pass tougher emissions (Honda's story) regulations it was killed off.

I hope Honda doesn't ever become like Apple... stock price aside.

thlublanec

I am new to this forum andnot rreally sure how to start a new conversation, but since this is the Rl forum, I guess I'll start here. I just placed a deposit on a 09 Rl - Platinum frost w/taupe interior. expected delivery is early April. This willbe my 4th RL. I now have an 05 and think it is the best value for the money. I dont are its not a BMW or MB. many people forget to look at the value for the buck. There seem to be alot of people bashing the current RL on this post, and I dont understand it. MY 05 came full loaded with navi, AWD, etc. Engine 300hp for a v6 is great -especially when gas is $3.00.

My delaer didnot have any further info on the 09 but will keep me informed as details come out. Anyone have any other new on the 09??

neuronbob

Welcome to AZ, thlublanec!

Most of the bashing you see here is about the company not standing properly behind the RL. The car has (minor) issues but I certainly love mine. Apparently we are a small minority given RL sales.

As far as what's in the 2009...we dunno any more than what's been given to us by sources in this thread. The 2009 is supposed to be introduced at the Chicago Auto Show in less than two weeks. We'll all know then!

Rexorg

Welcome! What you are reading as bashing is just tough love. We love our RLs, but wish Honda/Acura would make up their minds as to the direction the RL is going to take. The fact you ordered an '09 tells me it has to be vastly different from the '08, which is still in dealers showrooms and on the lots. Why they even went with an '08 model is beyond me. Should have followed the Corvette model of some years ago and just skipped a year.

SpicyMikey

Funny, I guess if you were new to this forum we must sound like a bunch of whining old ladies.

Rex is right thlublanec. We all love our RL's. We just like to debate what would make it even better. You'll find most of us also love to debate why Acura is so pathetic with marketing their products That's always a hot topic these days.

Welcome to Acurazine!

black label

How true. We are talking about the guy who mobilized Japan after the war via a motorcycle that ran on a crude mixture of gasoline and turpentine.

Shotgun

Well said!!! My sentiment precisely...

thlublanec

Thanks for welcoming me in. I agree with some of the comments on ways to make this car better.Maybe some of those ideas wil be addressed in the 09. I guess we just have to wait a few weeks to see what happens. I wish they would have more exciting colors. toomany drab gray choices. Need more lighter metallics with fire in them!!!