SpicyMikey

The LS is a different class. I agree a full sized $70k car better have a v8. The RL does not fit that category. I think it might be a mistake to make a "v8 only" RL. They need to sell it the same way the GS, 5 series, and E class is sold. Both v6 and v8 options

kirbyflorida

From what we hear the new RL will be bigger, if they go with a 6 in the "Bigger" car, it will most likely be a mistake.
My guess is not engine option, I cannot remember when they ever had an option for a more cylinder engine as an option for Acura's, could be wrong though. It costs so much more for line time and inventory to have option engine cars.
Accord is different, big volume sales.

SpicyMikey

Well, that's true. If they go much bigger a small 8 would probably makes sense. I guess it all depends on ho much larger they make the RL. Going to be interesting.

I'd still like to see them offer multiple power trains. They're going to do it with the upcoming TSX. That's already been confirmed.

neuronbob

Acura has also done it with the last two generations of TL, so they can definitely do it for the RL if they so chose.

kirbyflorida

I agree, just not different engines cylinder sizes, 4 and 6, 6 and 8, those are very costly options to have in the volume they sell for Acura's.

kirbyflorida

I heard the RL is 09 or 10.

Mike_TX

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neuronbob

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=719135

The TOV link above indicates another rumor written in an article in Mag-X, a Japanese car magazine. The article makes reference to the V8 rumored for the next Legend/RL and Ridgeline.

Mike_TX

Well, it ain't much - just a brief mention, but I suppose a bit more straw tossed on the glowing embers of speculation. But I wonder if it's a given that what the Legend gets, the U.S.-spec RL gets ...

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TampaRLX-SH

In the video clip, Fukui seems persistent that SHAWD will be Acura's trademark and did not indicate a RWD platform was in consideration when asked.

neuronbob

As I've said before, Honda intends on making Acura the Japanese Audi. I have no issue with that, as long as they market the reason that people in California can use SH-AWD (e.g. it improves dry handling for our ostensibly FWD-designed vehicles). Quattro has worked for Audi for 25 years + and it could work well for Acura as well.

TampaRLX-SH

Maybe Acura and Audi will merge,,,, The new slogan being:

"Advance Innovation through Technology"

Then we will have a JapaGerm Acudi with SHATTRO Drive!

Now THAT is the shiznit!

SpicyMikey

You think of this stuff off the top of your head or do you invest serious brain time into your comments. You have some good ones sometimes

neuronbob

That'll work. Then they could use THIS Audi ad. It is still funny as heck to me.

Godwhacker

In China that would translate to:

"Advance Innovation through Technology that Will Raise Your Ancestors from the Dead"

Sorry, Im mixing up my threads....

lindros2

As an owner of multiple Audis and multiple Acuras, I honestly can't make the connection between marques.

Audi = very high materials quality, conservative yet modern interiors, nearly perfect build quality (i.e. panel gaps), hindered by FWD architecture but getting better (see: R8 and new A4). Mechanical and electrical reliability is spotty (roll of the dice, so to speak).

Acura = glorified Honda with leading-edge features for a couple of years (2004 TL and 2005 RL) at a price below competitors. Mechanical and electrical reliability is top-notch.

But after driving every current-model Acura (MDX, RDX, TL, TSX and my RL) the quality of certain materials (on all but the RL) is real spotty (similar to the cost-cutting found in the current Toyota Camry).

If Acura *truly* wants to compete with Audi, they'll have to find a way to offer free service, better plastic/leather/navi screen quality on vehicles while at the same time not pricing themselves above Lexus and Infiniti (whom I believe is a more appropriate comparison to Audi even though they may believe "Infiniti=BMW").

-josh

neuronbob

You bring up fair points, Josh, but all I was referring to was that both Audi and Acura offer FWD and AWD systems on their cars. The comparison would be more appropriate if SH-AWD were an option on Acuras, but it is not.

I would call Infiniti the Japanese BMW and Lexus the Japanese Mercedes based on what their cars target.

TampaRLX-SH

I was reading that the Sayama plant where the RL / LEGEND is assembled will be closed down in 2010 for renovations. Meanwhile a nearby new state of the art plant in Yorii will be opening, although it does not specify what models will be assembled there.

http://www.siteselection.com/feature...sep/asianAuto/

http://world.honda.com/investors/ann...2006-02-08.pdf

Building a new automobile plant
 New automobile plant to be built in Yorii, Saitama
· Production capacity: approximately 200,000 units/year
(Production capacity in Japan once operational:
approximately 1.5 million units/year)
· Scheduled start of operations: 2010
· Related investment: approximately ¥70 billion
· Work force: approximately 2,200 associates
 Renovation of Sayama plant as a leading-edge
manufacturing facility
(After new plant begins operations)
Strengthening AT production
 Strengthen AT manufacturing system at
Hamamatsu PlantNew clean diesel engines
· Within three years, introduce new four-cylinder
clean diesel engines that meets Tier2 BIN5*14 U.S.
exhaust emission standard
· Also start developing a clean V6 diesel engine



This timing is curious to the roll out to a next gen RL / Legend?

TSX69

Temple of VTEC has a thread regarding a rumor about 2009's RL: early release in June, new engine, larger size & new sheet metal. According to poster HONDA AFVM, this will be a major MMC.

A mid year refresh sounds logical to me since 2008 would have been the usual 3rd year refresh that the RL did not get - so hopefully it was postponed bc they were doing something major.

This @ least sounds doable unlike a sudden RWD or 8 cylinder engine.

kirbyflorida

You can bet it will be SHAWD, that IS their platform now.

dwboston

That sounds like it's likely the RL will get the 3.7L engine from the MDX. How much HP could Honda get out of that with tuning? 315?

kirbyflorida

I heard the RL may get a 4.7 v-8, but my guess is the 3.7, 315 hp sounds about right, and more torque, which is always nice.

TSX69

That would be a pleasant surprise but I doubt it since we have yet to hear anything ... unless Honda wants it to be a really big secret. The 3.7 seems likely since they already have it ... a bigger stretch would be a turbo or hybrid - other technology that they already have. Probably still too early for a diesel ...

Whatever they do, I hope it works bc I think that their last effort of decontenting the RL was a mistake which did anything but help their luxury image.

neuronbob

Merged tsx69's thread into this one.

I read those posts on TOV late last night myself. We'll see...

Shotgun

Why not both? Would make a nice mix...

kirbyflorida

Nice idea, but Acura does not do that, too costly, too many sku's.
So past performance predicts future performance. I know Honda does on the Accord.

TampaRLX-SH

I went to the Tampa Bay Auto Show last night. The good news is the only car for me currently is the RL.

I am shocked at some of assembly that manufacturer's are displaying out there. Door that wobble when opened, doors that sound like empty tin cans when shut, plastic door panels with gaps large enough to get my fingers in between past two knuckles, plastics made by rubbermaid and styling so busy and disjointed some cars look designed by a committee.

The Mercedes BlueTech was on display. When I asked about how the urea packs were replaced, the rep shrugged (I was surprised - MB reps get a lot of training). I asked if it had been approved in NY, NH, CA? He said yes, but ONLY when sold NEW. USED MB Bluetechs cannot be resold in those states (to avoid expired urea packs being used in these emission tough states). I looked at the new C class, and although I think it is nicer than the C class is replaces, I was not overwhelmed. It is proportionally balanced and appears as fair sized, but everything is small, especially the seats, so though proportional, it is more an illusion than a good fit. I did like the M Class SUV, but the ergonmics did not work for me.

Infinity styling does not work for me, and the Ms were LOCKED! I moved on.

Lexus had NO GS on display, but the IS-F was there, and nice eye candy, but the IS is also too small for me. The LS is very nice, but at 80K i did not see it being twice as much car as the RL. The ES styling also does not work for me.

The new Audi A5 coupe was there. It had the most interesting, fluid and elegant styling of anything I saw. The interior was black - which I do not like, and the plastics did not work well, but I believe it was just and early build. The exterior sheetmetal was gorgeous.

BMW was highlighting the M3, M5 and and M6. Very nice, but I am not wowed for the $$$. I did like the X5 very much, except for that futon looking back seat.

The car that impressed me as being very RL - like in style, build quality and safety / feature content was another born to sleep model...the Volvo s80. I do not know if they exibit the reliability I expect from the RL, but I found the s80 pleasant, without having driven it. It's presence in person, feel and materials felt very much like the RL, even if the styling was very scandinavian simple.

I stopped by Honda and was more impressed with the new Accords in person. The coupe catches my eye, but the rump does not work for me...it us HUGE and goes on for ever. Why? Just to make it reach XXX inches in length? The sedan interior is very nice...almost Acura - like. The exterior has, in my opinion too many styling cues going on. Some odd proportions, angles and long overhangs. The one on display was the same color as my RL an it truely exemplified how simple, proportioned, flowing and elegant the RL styling is. It may have proportions siilar to the RL, but make no mistake, it is no an RL underneath. It does have me intriques as to what the next TL will be.

Now Acura: They had all models, mostly all black. And the display area was black carpet. What IDIOT designed the display??? The cars were INVISIBLE. There was one white TL and one white RDX. But they had a black TSX, black TL and black RL (black in and out) clustered together on the black carpet. I heard 3 people say 'why is there such a huge range in price on THIS car?' They were indistinguishable. No videos, no concepts, no focus, no thought. It was the WORSE auto display at the auto show (Including Isuzu, which has, well...no Isuzus). Acura's marketing has truly entered the Black Hole.

Now my local Acura rep was there (who sold my TL and RL to me). Intelligent man, tempered enthusiasm and insightful to Honda / Acura conservatism. I did take the info he shared with me as rumor....but he did support some of the speculation I read here. He did state Feb 08 is the end of production of the 08 MY RL. Late spring will be a MMY RL, sheetmetal, styling changes, a lengthened platform and and engine upgrade or option. I do not know if that would be in addition to the current 3.5. When I asked if a new engine or option would be a tuned 3.7 from the MDX or the long rumored V8, he just smiled. Fair enough, he may not know anything as fact himself.

Time will tell.

TMQ

Acura better throws a couple more luxury options in there, more way of power seats for driver and passenger, heat rear seat, heat steering wheel, at least 3 colors of leather, 2 choices of wood.

Mike_TX

They already offer 3 leather colors in the RL - ebony, parchment and taupe.

I could go for the heated steering wheel, though - it was very nice in my old Maxima.

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TSX69

Major FaceLift Planned for 2009 RL
Acura is planning to inject some life into the slow selling RL flagship saloon by giving the car a major overhaul in time for next year’s summer sale period. Several dealers were given information about the update but no specifications or details about the car’s final styling were revealed.

One dealer in Pittsburgh told Automotive News that the car will receive “a major facelift in the front and back.” Dealers across the U.S. have requested several major changes as another Los Angeles salesmen explained. “Dealers have said they want three things: They don’t like the styling, there is not enough rear-seat legroom and it needs a turbocharger or V8.”

American Honda exec Dan Bonawitz confirmed that changes to the car will be introduced by the middle of next year, also admitting that the car’s interior could be improved. He wasn’t willing to give any details about any powertrain changes, however.

If any car in Acura/Honda’s lineup was in need of an update it’s the RL. The latest model has sold poorly since its introduction in 2004, with latest sales figures down 47.5% on the same period last year. The key problem is that luxury buyers usually look for RWD vehicles with powerful V8 engines and the AWD V6 RL meets neither of those descriptors.

SpicyMikey

That's totally consistent with what my dealer told me last month when I picked up my new MDX. Unfortunately that article offers no extra details. My friend said the Acura reps on the conference call said it would be longer and restyled. However no mention about powertrain changes. I'm guessing there will be a larger engine (v8 option) but I doubt RWD will added. The current AWD system on my RL is fantastic and the car already drives better then most I've tried. I can't see them making it drive any better with RWD. Improve the suspension. That would be a more meaningful step forward.

By the way, my MDX (also with SHAWD) feels much more like a FWD car. I don't know what Acura did with the RL AWD system, but whatever it was, they should do it in all their cars. It feels like the best of both worlds.

krio

Longer?
Strange for a restyled car...
I don't remember about any car in the recent past that became longer in the middle of it's cycle.
And why we didn't get the mid. cycle this year?
RL: 2005, 2006, 2007, 200...8? It means that the 2gn RL will be a 6 year long one?

SpicyMikey

I think they didn't do an MMC because they planned to pull the plug on this generation early. I think this change coming next year is the "all new RL" for 09, not just a refresh.

Mike_TX

I'm leaning that way, too, Mikey.

But I'm also beginning to think they might not make the V-8 available the first year of the restyle. IOW, an early-launch 2009 model in mid-2008, with either the existing V-6 (unlikely), or the 3.7-liter V-6 currently in the MDX. Then, an optional V-8 in 2010 (when the restyle was originally scheduled).

I say the 3.7-liter for 2009 because they need to at least be able to advertise a larger engine for the somewhat larger car - and the 3.7 can easily produce 305hp/275 ft-lb. of torque with only minimal plumbing changes. That's a 15hp increase, and more torque than the current 3.5, which is enough to squeak by, given that others in the (V-6) class generally have less.

The V-8 will probably stay in the wings as an option for the 2010 model. When it hits in the fall of 2009, I expect a 4.4 or 4.5-liter displacement, making 325hp and around 320 ft-lb. of torque (although at high revs, probably 6,500 rpm or more). It will have aluminum alloy block and heads, 32 valves, and will run on regular gas. It will also use a version of the cylinder deactivation system used on the new Accord V-6, as well as a variable intake runner system that improves low-end performance.

Visually, I expect new 18" wheels and a slightly "exaggerated" version of the current lines. That is, the hood will have a slightly bigger bulge (partly for the coming V-8), making for deeper valleys where it meets the fenders. Those fenders will also be more muscular, and will have slightly larger fender flares to accommodate the bigger wheels. The grille will be a little larger and more pronounced, rather than blending in with the front fascia. Headlights will not change much, except to cut deeper back into the fenders.

The rear will be re-proportioned to balance out the front end changes, with a taller and blockier trunklid shape and a slightly extended rear overhang. It'll be more of a wedge shaped car as opposed to the current teardrop design, but with flowing curves and an overall "bulked-up" appearance for more road presence. Not a radical change, but a significant one.

My crystal ball goes dim after that ...

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SpicyMikey

I totally agree about the v8+ being a no-show next year. I think this IS the FMC but with the MDX 3.7L. I'm only thinking that because it seems something substantial would have leaked out by now. A new engine is big news and I can't imagine them keeping a lid on that. Someone would have spotted them testing it by now. BUT, I'll bet it will be released in the second year of the next gen along with the NSX

kenny5

Many of us believe that Acura's factory in-dash navi is (at least currently) one of the best in the industry, but it trails behind portable navi units (such as Garmin and Tom Tom), and it is pretty bad when trying to use it to locate certain businesses in particular locales.

Wouldn't be nice if the next gen RL - Acura's flagship - comes with WIFI internet access such that its factory navi can operate seamlessly with mapping services provided by major internet search engines such as Google and Yahoo? Here is a link to the idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps.

It should be noted that I am unaware of any internet mapping services that can be operated by voice command. Thus, I believe the factory navi and such mapping services need to work in tandem, in order to provide seamless operations. Also, the factory navi is a needed default in the event where WIFI signal is weak or otherwise inaccessible.

I think the technology is almost there. It probably needs major negotiations amongst the car manufacturers, navi manufactures (such as Alpine and Pioneer) and Google/Yahoo. Of course, there should be reasonable restrictions as to when internet can be accessed, such as by the front seat passenger when the car is in motion and full access when the car is parked.

Any techie here that can chime in and provide more info?

neuronbob

I think if they are going to add weight to the car by adding space--it already weighs just under 4k pounds--it would be silly to add only 15 hp. I know it's only an example, but still....if you're gonna go this route, you gotta do it right.

Mike_TX

I agree to some extent, but keep in mind that the class-leading V-6's make 304-306 hp (Lexus, Cadillac, etc.). The Infiniti M35 makes only 275. By that measure, 305 hp would be in the middle of the hunt and ahead of some. In addition, getting more than 305 hp or so out of the 3.7 isn't really feasible without resorting to diminished torque, or some exotica like a turbocharger.

By the same token, the class-leading V-8's are in the 325 - 350 range. The Infiniti M45, to use a close competitor example, makes "only" 325 and it both rips AND snorts in a larger vehicle that weighs close to the same as the current RL.

Honda moves in small, calculated steps, and a production V-8 from them isn't realistically likely to exceed 325-330 hp. Corvette LS1-level horsepower just isn't in Honda's playbook ... they've never been about class-leading horsepower in their family vehicles.

On top of all that, you wouldn't have a V-8 competing with a V-6 of essentially the same hp anyway!

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TSX69

I think that increasing the size is a good thing. It will not only help differentiate it from the TL but also help compete w/ other flagships. Kind of like how they made the 2008 Accord sedan larger to try to compete w/ the Avalon & the Camry.

As for weight, hopefully Acura is smart enough to try to make it lighter or stay the same until they can bring out the V8 ...

... speaking of engines, I wonder if they will use a turbo or hybrid until the V8 or diesel is ready. Hybrid would cut into trunk space however.

In terms of luxury, Acura really just needs to look @ its competitors like the GS & M ... whatever they have, the RL should have too. Of course, they should have things that they don't (I still think Acura should up the warranty to 5 years & Honda to 4 -- longer warranties worked for Hyundai).

Since the simple understated look did not work, I am willing to bet the new one will be rather brash looking. I am counting on it having those new bulbous light casings that are all the rage nowadays.

It goes w/out saying that the new model should be priced VERY competitively.

krio

Acura smart enough?
I fear not.
They make great cars, ours in the case, but for beeing smart...
When they give interv. and tell Acura aim at Mayback and Aston Marin (or Bentley, I don't remember) you feel a little bit strange, like saying that Lexus aims to Bentley, or Fiat aims to Mercedes.
I could understand if they said that aim at the Lexus, or Audi...

About the RL. In fact, the next gen. had to be, I think, better aim to the upper class of the market: A8, Merc S, Lexus LS, that the GS or A6 and so on.
If the RL aims to this class, the next TL to what? To the IS or BMW3? or to the ES?And the TSX?
The "cross class problem" of the Acura sedan's range create only confusion .
Let get the TSX like a BMW3, the TL like a BMW5 and the RL like a BMW7.