jhr3uva90

True! I don't the RL is what customers want FROM ACURA. Acura has the reputation of giving customers lots of gadgets for a relatively low price. The TSX and TL embody this. However, customers GENERALLY (and I mean laypersons, not Acura fans) do not see Acura as having the cache or being "as good" as Lexus. So when Acura releases a "Lexus-like" vehicle such as the RL, the public ignores it. The RL looks more like a Lexus than like its TL sibling and would probably sell much better with a Lexus brand. In fact, I have friends who know nothing about cars who keep calling my RL a Lexus.

So, what is Acura to do? They could design an RL to their liking. They already did this, it called the TL Type S. Or Acura could change people's perception of the brand, that it is one step below Lexus. Or Acura could just stick to cars that have a base price of less than $45K. Which way should they go?

JeffS

That is how I read it too. It sounds like the MMC's are a 2 year bandage.

I am impressed that Acura would spend the $$ though and that shows some dedication on their part to the survival of the RL.

SpicyMikey

Which way should they go? personally I think they should move up stream and compete with Lexus and BMW head on. MB has some VERY upstream products (SLR, SL, etc) that are just too far outside the box. Acura can't go there in any immediate timeframe. However, I think they can and should introduce a sub $80k full size lux sedan and sports car. Everything is in place;
1) Parent company with lots of cash - Check
2) Current brand image that is solid and respected - Check
3) Quality products that are solid and respected - Check

All they need is to tweek this product. The RL in it's current form is not working. That's not the brands fault. It's not marketing's fault. It's the product. The good news is that there's nothing fundamentally wrong here that can't be fixed almost overnight. They're not trying to reinvent the Ford Pinto. That would be a real challenge and take years.

jhr3uva90

I don't think the problem is the RL. If it were a Lexus RL, it would sell substantially better. However, Acura does need a TRUE flagship, one that is comparable to the Lexus LS and Audi A8. As long as Acura lacks that type of car, people will have unrealistic expectations of the RL. The RL was meant to be competition for the Lexus GS, not LS. That is all it was meant to do.

If Honda really wants Acura to be a true luxury brand and not just the super-Accord, then they need to stop having Acuras that share platforms with Accords. They need to have RWD cars, and especially a full-sized, RWD sedan with a V8 engine at least.

halfaznguy87

Well like I mentioned above, in so many words that's what Honda/Acura plan to do...
More better products will mean better brand recognition for Acura.

jhr3uva90

But will the products really be "better" if all they are going to do is continue to bolt SH-AWD to the Global Mid-sized Platform?

halfaznguy87

Well I'll leave that up to you..

Acura has opened its on design center. Acura has developed products on their own (TL, MDX, RDX) which has been successful. IF they keep this up I see a bright future.

Mike_TX

Guys, there's nothing wrong with the RL as a product. It is an excellent car. I think what Collier means is that it slightly misses the mark by not being quite big enough to compete with others in the segment, and it didn't come with a V-8 option when the competition did. That doesn't make it a flawed product, just a product that wasn't correctly "positioned".

What's been repeated and repeated here is that Honda/Acura hasn't marketed it, so no one knows that it's such a good vehicle, nor did they properly position it in the market. And I really disagree that the Americans didn't push it because they didn't get to design it. Good marketing people can market anything to anybody (freezers to Eskimos), and it would be career suicide for them to purposely ignore their flagship product.

What has obviously happened is that Honda hasn't allocated the resources to them to market it. We don't know why, of course, but it's obvious the advertising dollars haven't been made available. That tells me Honda has either made a conscious decision not to promote the car, or they have just been too tight to do so. I favor the latter, since they focus their resources on the Honda line.

Which brings me back to something I said in another thread long ago ... Honda just isn't comfortable with the RL. It flies in the face of Soichiro Honda's original notion of small, fuel-efficient cars, and too many Honda execs are skeptical about even being in the U.S. luxury market, much less in the $50,000 segment. It's a Japanese version of "small-think", and until they get over it, Acura in general - and the RL in particular - won't prosper.

Acura needs some new blood and Honda needs to give them some rope to either hang themselves or succeed.

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CL6

I don't know that I buy the 'no V8' option anymore. 99% of the E Classes I move are 3.5 liter V6s. The E and the RL have pretty much the same interior room I think. We have a used RL here and only one inquiry and that was absurdly low. I really think it's just that people think of Acura as being a more expensive Honda. I think that's it.

jhr3uva90

I think CL6 hit the nail on the head!

halfaznguy87

yeah, hahahaha, that pretty much sums it up I guess...

TSX69

I really have 2 ponder if the next RL will have a v8 engine. w/ the CAFE regulations coming, other makers are already dropping plans for their new v6s & muscle cars have been put on hold. Hybrids, diesels & turbos are all the buzz now.

Granted, if Acura has already been working on their v8/10, they probably will want to use it instead of getting rid of it ... but if the competition is moving towards high powered v6s, will Acura do the same? Is the halo effect of the v8 that strong?

As for size, there is no reason to do increase it unless they want to have it compete w/ the S Class or 7 Series. I think that they should keep it a 5 Series/E Class fighter & just make a brand new full size sedan. Infiniti is taking another stab @ the Q, Acura might as well dabble if they really wannabe tier 1 stuff.

neuronbob

'nuff said. Fully quoted Mike so the wisdom of his words is read again.

I agree 1000%.

Acuras already rock, they just need to do what Apple did with the iMac....market that user experience to everyone.

krio

....someone remember about the fantastic A-Vtec technology , or I have missed something??

Rexorg

". . . it was the wrong car" Translation: At $50K the RL made us and the dealers a heap of profit, but not many customers wanted to spend that amount when Acura is perceived as an entry level luxury brand. Just wait for the '10 RL that we will charge $70K for and we will make $25K profit on each one when we become a true luxury brand.

SpicyMikey

I think it's everything Mike said plus it IS also the car. We have to be honest. We love it, but it's a sales failure. Poor marketing cannot explain away everything. It needs changes. I don't think it needs a lot, but it needs some changes. Those changes have been discussed here over and over so I won't repeat it again.

Having said that, yes, they also need to do a better job at properly marketing the Acura brand in general and the RL in particular.

Mike_TX

I don't doubt that most E-classes are V-6's. But I also think it's important not to discount the effect the V-8 version has on overall E-class sales. Nor the effect the S-class has.

People in general like to identify with high-end products, and nowhere is that more true than in the automobile business. Just having the Cobra in the lineup, for example, stimulates lesser Mustang sales like you wouldn't believe. And winning rally championships sells tons of WRX's, even though the rally version isn't even close to the street version. Non-Hemi Dodges sell better because some Dodges have one.

In the minds of E-class buyers, some of that V-8 and S-class goodness rubs off on the V-6 model, making it just a little bit better than it otherwise is. Furthermore, in marketing terms, an E-class buyer gets to "sell himself down" to the V-6, making him feel better about spending the money. With the current RL, there's nothing to sell yourself down from ... it's the whole enchilada or nothing, and that's bad marketing in that it leaves no "justification room" for the timid buyer.

Frankly, the E-class doesn't have enough innate goodness to sell itself in the numbers it does, and if it were the top of the line model and came only in V-6 form, it probably wouldn't!

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123456SPEED

If historically, the majority of your products are in the $25k-$35k range, and are perceived by many as fancy Hondas, it takes a lot to upsell your customers a $50k Accord, esp with no flashy, gotta have features; and facing lots of good competition.

The 2G RL was primarily a showcase for SH-AWD. Market factors and segment competition were not the top priority, the car was kept small to help emphasize the AWD handling.

For me, it'll be a good fit, cause I don't need more space or a bigger engine, or a car to impress. It's a bargain as a used car.

and I'm thinking the new TL will steal even more 2G RL sales, they need to pile in a lot of new stuff in the RL refesh to make it viable.

swift22

I was working at a lexus dealership where a customer traded in a legend for a brand new LS model. I talked with them and asked if they had looked at the RL(acura was across the street) and quized them about there past vehicles. They had owned two legends and another acura. However for the price it didnt have enough trunk space etc for the price. They said the TL was nice and had the space but didnt have the accessories they were looking for really. So they opted to get the LS......

Who could blame them.

TampaRLX-SH

A Ferrari 430 Spider has a miniscule trunk.

So it too should be sold for much less money.

I think Ferrari should sell one to me for less than I paid for my RL.

Who can blame me?


Can we grasp at more staws?

Mike_TX

In fairness, Tampa, I think his point was that trunk space was a big consideration for those people, and we all know the RL isn't overly generous in that area. I know when we traveled a couple of times with my mother-in-law for a week or more, some of the luggage had to spill over into the back seat with her.

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TampaRLX-SH

I don't see where this statement is qualified by any individual buyer. It sounds like a rule to me.

Based on that, this is a false statement. I find the trunk, size and engine absolutely worth the price. I also find many expensive vehicles with small / smaller trunks.

And if Lexus is the cure for those who believe this rule, please equate the trunk of the GS to this formula. I would certainly 'blame' people who bought (and are quite happy with) a GS. They paid waaaay too much for such a trunk.

Perhaps they should flock to an Acura dealership.

And could we blame them?

123456SPEED

Hear me out, I need to rant about Acura for a minute. Frustrated.
As I read more and more on the RL board I feel increasingly alienated (and put off) by Acura's 'top-tier luxury' direction.

Honda and Acura were masters at making more from less, and doing it brilliantly, esp their engines. Now, they ditch my favorite Acuras; Legends and all coupes, and offer only sedans and SUVs, at planned $40k to $70k pricing with people crying for V8s and V10s.

Now where does a buyer who loved the understated Acuras go? I'm not fond of gas thirsty, big engined, in your face, I'm 'richer than you' status cars. Japanese Audi? Audi's are fine but why target a slow selling brand, why not then target BMW for sport or MB for lux if you gotta change? They could never compete with BMW, got out-premiumed by Lexus, and are getting out-sported by Infiniti.

Honda is even losing the race I thought they'd lead, alternative fuels. Toyota is years ahead in hybrid tech right now, with lots more resources, what's Honda gonna do.

I loved what Acura was. They may 'advance' but their heyday is gone. I guess I can't blame Acura totally, it's the market. SUVs abound and Honda Accords now cost what Acura's used to.

Acura may find success going upscale but what made them unique is now just an old legend.

jhr3uva90

Good points. Toyota might be ahead in hybrids, but Honda is ahead in fuel cell vehicles. Hybrid is just a transitionary technology, while the future ultimately belongs to engines that don't rely on gasoline at all.

I agree that Acura should not aspire to being Audi. In fact, Audi sells even fewer cars in North America than Acura does! Personally, I think Honda is still trying to do more with less with the Acura brand and will continue to do so as long as all of Acura's sedans are based on the same platform as the Honda Accord. I'm not sure where Acura is going or if their strategy will work. Only time will tell.

cai06

I would completely disagree with this assertion. Honda is leading in alternative fuels with its first working fuel cell FCX Clarity, a truly revolutionary departure from traditional combustion cars.
The current hybrid technology is just a transitional gimmick with no long-term future, many diesel cars in Europe can easily beat the Prius in cost-efficiency and mileage.

BTW, with teh new CAFE standards, Honda is actually ahead of the pack, with its line of clean, torquey diesels and high-rev I4, V6´s.

kssod

At the Detroit show the Acura guy said that the new TL, RL, and TSX will all be out by the fall. The RL will be out in the summer, and have all new sheetmetal except for 2 pieces. No info on mechanical changes. I agree with neuronbob, Acura needs to improve asthetics like Apple to get the product interesting. The quality and user interface on Apple products are great, but I get more comments from patients at my front desk on the cool macs than from anything else.

Rexorg

I was told on the 14th that the target for Acura is BMW 5 and 7 Series for the TL and RL. All Acuras will be larger and more expensive, as that is the name of the game. The Lexus ES350 is the best selling Lexus. It now beats or ties the original LS400 in every meaningful category as to size, power, luxury, tech, etc. The '09 TL will take over the '08 RLs place and the new '10 RL will be on a new plane. The direction Acura would be taking was evident when the '08 Accord was introduced. Looks like the days of the best bang for the buck cars are gone at Acura. Could there be a Hyundai in your future?

TMQ

First, there are many things wrong with RL as a product - size, lack of options/luxury, speed, design, for you can get at its price. A product is always associated with the price - and often you get what you pay for. One should say, there's not much wrong for RL's functions.

Second, marketing is not just advertising. Marketing is about know what your customers want, or will want, and tailor your products to their needs or desires. What do people want for a executive sedan that cost 45K plus? Acura didn't do their homework and research the main competition - 5 series, E class. (Lexus and Infiniti have been just so so.)

Buyers want luxury, want daring designs, want image. Some want high performance, and some want the entry performance level with all the tech/lux goodies. BMW has the 550 for some, 528 for others, and 535 to satisfy the middle. It offers all kinds of options. RL doesn't have those. RL offers a tech package. Buyers in that segment don't just want tech!

I doubt the mild change in size etc will do much to change the sales trend. People who know cars know RL is a failure. People don't know cars don't even know it exists. Acura will have much work to do for the next generation RL, engine, transmission, design, luxury...

Chuck091279

I couldn't disagree more. I think it has a lot to do with the perceived value of many of these options. A BMW 5 series, outfitted with the RL's options will be signficantly more expensive than an RL. That's always been Acura's perspective on their cars - they build technology into their cars that people don't have to "upgrade" to - or buy a "package" for - like Infiniti, Lexus and BMW. I'm not saying that they aren't great cars - Acura just does a good job of packaging their cars in a simplified manner.

Regarding daring designs, etc. - I'm quite sure that the TL and TSX have outsold the Lexus ES series. I don't have any data to support that - other than the fact that there's a heck of a lot more TL's and TSX's on the road than Lexus ES series.

Here's a fun fact - MB's business model was that as of 2007, bluetooth was not available as a standard interior feature on their E Class. That, combined with a dated navigation system, bulky looking interior knobs and controls - I knew that a MB E Class was not for me.

The reason I own an RL is because the value it provides - dollar for dollar that I paid for it. I mean on the M35, you have to upgrade to an AWD system that is not as refined as that of the RL's.

It doesn't make much financial sense.

cai06

That topic has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum.
It is very obvious that you don´t know the RL "as a product". Have you ever been inside the RLs competition? they are actually smaller and cramped, the GS is claustrophobic. The RL per se is a fine machine. If you slap a Lexus RL badge it will sell like hotcakes. The RL comes fully loaded, luxury you probably haven´t been inside the RL and its direct competitors. Anyway the problem is image and marketing not the machine.

jhr3uva90

The problem is that people tend to compare the RL to the LS and other full-sized cars, which is not a fair comparison. If you compare the RL to the LS (which costs substantially more), then of course the RL will seem small. What people fail to realize is that the TL is analogous to the Lexus ES (but claims to be sporty like an IS), the RL is analogous to the Lexus GS, there is no Acura analogy to the Lexus LS and that there is no Lexus analogy to the Acura TSX.

halfaznguy87

Hahaha Seriously...

halfaznguy87

I don't think people compare the RL to the LS.

I mean you don't see people comparing a Volvo S80 to the S550, LS 460, and etc..

To tell you guys the truth I don't think the TSX really belongs in the Acura line-up. IF we're talking price range:

TL -> IS 250/ES 350
TL Type S -> IS350/ES 350
RL -> GS

but I digress..

We're beating a dead horse here -the problem is marketing/image..

TMQ

Agree, this has been discussed many times, but Acura still hasn't got it.

Let's see, wife drives a 5 series, so I guess I have had too much info when deciding what to buy. Lexus GS isn't a great product (tape player, any one?), that's why its sales trail MB and BMW quite a bit.

I'm saying that when you talk about a "product", it's always associated with the market needs. These two things go hand in hand. A luxury car by definition offers luxury, so maybe Acura wants to be labeled as a technology car.

True, RL offers the best value (dollar for dollar) in terms of getting from point A to B or giving you certain features, but in this market segment, that's not the point. I wear a $30 watch, the guy next to me has a Rolex; we have very different priorities. If people want to spend 45K on a car, priority number 1 often is not the value. MB may not offer bluetooth as standard equipment, but one can pay for it. On the other hand, MB has quite a few options that RL doesn't have, and if you want to pay for it, you can't get it. For people in the lux market, that's a no no.

Now, maybe Acura wants to carve its own winning formula and don't want to follow the MB and Lexus path. So far it hasn't worked. Maybe it would in a bear market? We've owned 4 Honda so would like to see some change.

sadlerau

Some people are so blinded by prejudice.

I've sat in an M5 [brother was thinking about purchasing one]. The interior style, fit and finish was adequate at best, and to my own prejudiced view inferior to my Legend.

Agreed that buyers in this segment want choices, lots of boxes to tick. This results in some outrageously inflated prices for what you get in ticking those boxes, that is a direct result of this type of marketing.

But many/most people in this segment don't care. Drag them in with the base model, some will be happy with that. Some will choose the middle ground, some will tick every box on the brochure. The odd one will just go for the M5 [lucky them].

And on this I agree totally with you TMQ, Acura has no option [no pun intended] but to adopt this form of marketing in this segment. Or else, it will always be a bit player, catering to one small segment of the luxury market - those who seek value.

Acura needs choices - engine, gadgets and trim to compete. Good product helps, but as has been proven with the RL, good product aint enough. Especially when your marketing department is missing in action!

Mike_TX

Well, TMQ - we agree on one thing; Marketing isn't just advertising ... it's the art and science of making people want to buy your product. Advertising is just one little part of it.

Acura needs to make people want to buy RL's - by making them seem trendy, techy, desirable, fashionable, socially responsible, interesting, sexy, etc., etc. That's what they've failed to do IMO, and that's the main reason they haven't sold well. If the RL somehow had the cache that Mercedes products have, it would be a big seller, but then again, Honda hasn't seen fit to build cache for Acura.

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Rob144

I think that people buy a BMW or a Mercedes for their "BMW-ness" or "Mercedes-ness". The high-tech stuff that comes in those cars is along for the ride. It doesn't make or break the sale (or i-Drive would be tossed aside).

Mike_TX is right: Acura doesn't have the name recognition or cache to compete with those marques. They use the tech to attract customers, in the hopes that the value proposition is compelling enough to convince a customer.

I'm really curious as to what first-time Acura shoppers think when they first encounter a dealership, see the cars, and maybe test drive one. What is that first impression if they are completely unfamiliar with the brand?

With the Korean brands starting to make a name for themselves, Acura can't afford to be out of the car-buying consciousness much longer or they'll be a bit player forever.

I'm anxious and bit afraid to see what they've done to the RL. Sad that they keep having to change the car, and re-package it to compensate for poor marketing. I guess it needs something if Acura insists on a sedan to anchor the brand.

Rob144

jhr3uva90

The first option people in the RL's segment want is the option to NOT have SH-AWD. I think one major reason the RL sells so poorly is because there is no RWD option.

TMQ

I'm trying to make some constructive criticism... A lot of the difficulty that Acura RL encounters is the brand image. But the brand needs to start somewhere, and great products are usually the way to get there.

Lexus came to the party later than Acura, but they made some good research and decisions, introducing LS that catered to the luxury buyers who want comfortable ride, quiet interior, and lower price than MB. Imagine the profit Lexus has made from LS, selling 3000 a month. Then there's the vanilla ES, and the IS sports sedan that sell quite well despite being contrary to the usual Lexus image.

Infiniti was nearly dead in the late 1990s but the G35 lineup changed its fortune.

BMW wasn't as hot in the 80's, but they keep making sports sedans that people like to drive, despite having 7-yr model cycles. I certainly wasn't ready to get wife a 5 series but it turns out to be a fantastic car.

Acura came out well with the Legend, NSX etc. but unfortunately the followups have not been great. Perhaps the recent and new TSX and TL will be a good start again.

VOdoc

Yep. (Except the part about alternative fuels--the Clarity fuel-cell vehicle is really cutting-edge.) I have enough assets and income to buy one of those crazy-expensive cars but would never consider it. I would buy a V-8 or V-10 about as soon as I would fly to Mars. So if Acura goes further upmarket they will lose me as a customer and evangelist.

Value = Quality/Cost. Acura wins hands down. They just need to crank up the marketing machine.