krio

Mike, I like especially the wheels... I think we got a 235/45R19 in front and two 285/35 R19 in the back. It's clearly an RWD for Honda, at the end.
Wonderful car. That's progress.

TSX69

GM Confirms Cadillac v8 Program Scrapped Due to CAFE
Earlier this month GM announced it was scrapping development of a new V8 engine for Cadillac. At the time, GM did not disclose a reason for the move. But at the Detroit auto show this week, CEO Rick Wagoner confirmed the U.S. government's new 35 mpg CAFE standard is the sole cause.

The cancellation of a successor to the Northstar engine family was "the direct result of the 35-mpg fuel legislation," Wagoner told Car and Driver magazine.

He said when the project was first started, his company had "more optimism" about the future of V8 engines and the effect of emissions and fuel economy regulations. As it turns out, GM's wishful thinking wasn't enough to prevent controversial law from claiming one of its first victims.

The move also raises questions about the future of fuel-thirsty engines in general — not only at GM but at other automakers as well. Ford, for examples, is putting an increased focus on turbocharged V6s. Even BMW is moving to turbocharging as a means of decreasing displacement. Some American luxury cars are already debuting as V6-only — take the new Cadillac CTS and Lincoln MKS as examples.

Because CAFE standards look at the overall fuel economy average for an entire company, low-volume high-performance vehicles are unlikely to be affected by CAFE. As for everything else, we could be witnessing the beginning of a trend away from large engines all together.

GoHawks

I'm going, but not until next weekend. My son has a hockey tournament in Toronto this weekend.

Mike_TX

Yep, that's the news that came out earlier. I guess the new "big" Caddy - the one that will replace both the DTS (the old DeVille) and the current STS in 2010 - will also be V-6 powered.

I don't know how it will do in a heavier car like that, but I WILL say the direct-injection V-6 used in the new CTS is a strong engine. It has good throttle response because of the direct injection, and the 6spd transmission takes good advantage of that power. In fact, it has only about 18 or 19 hp less than the old Northstar V-8, and feels almost as torquey.

Funny thing is, it doesn't do any better on gas mileage than modern V-8's with much more hp. To me, that means even the good V-6's are going to fall by the wayside as these silly CAFE requirements take effect. The government doesn't have any business messing with private enterprise like this - it should be a marketplace decision as to what kind of engines people want to buy and "feed", and the car companies should be free to build what people want to buy! That's what they used to call "the American Way".

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dwboston

IMO these issues will likely be moot as the politicians water down or extend the deadlines so as not to hurt the domestic automakers too much. Cagey move by GM blaming the CAFE standards when the company is bleeding $. And by 2020 electric vehicles and fuel cells will likely be viable. There's some really interesting battery technology developed at Stanford involving silicon nanowires that can extend battery life 10x beyond lithium ion batteries. The batteries are what is holding back electric cars right now - look at the Tesla delays (and Tesla is supposed to be licensing battery technology to other carmakers). I think fuel cells are where its at long-term, as long as there are clean hydrogen sources. I wish I could get in on the FCX trial.

Chas2

We all wish we could get in on the FCX trial!

The reviews sound very encouraging. Dig around the Exhaust Notes section of TOV and see the evolution of the Honda fuel cell and also look for the test drives in Malibu or some place like that in LA.

tommyz

Sorry to be off topic, i read the whole thread.

I am a 2 time tl owner. I have a 2005 tl I love. I wanted to trade up to RL.

I have only 34k so i will get a good trade.

Any input on whether the 2009 bodystyle will be vastly different? Should i hold out for 09? RL?

The 09 TL seems to be a mystery too, i saw some euro insight pictures (yuck)

Ibn Rushd

When you decide to renovate your house, do you do it all in one shot or slowly that way you can still continue keeping the way things are but putting money into it slowly.

Perhaps you are someone that drops 50 thousand dollars to renovate parts of your home in one shot. Maybe you can do that.

My father and I recently began renovations, over one year, and 20 thousand less, we are not able to continue until next summer. So now i still have some left to do, but at least i've started.

Eventually, enough modest improvements, will slowly start to show.

You want to upgrade your house, for instance, and say you start with hardwood floors, it's simply a modest improvement over the house, but it is the beginning. The RL is getting larger and slowly getting a better engine, so it's modest, but it's still an improvement.

This RL will now set the tone for the Full model change RL that will show itself, deemed to be larger than this and more powerful. You can't simply go from nothing to having everything.

Now this isn't directed to anyone, but i own my own business (two of them in fact) one i've taken over, and one i've started from my own hands and i'm still a full time student. I know as well as anyone here, who has their own business or in general is working full time (which i assume is nearly all of you) that you can't do everything at once.

And for all we know, there are so many hidden costs, that we don't see anything, and perhaps to keep up with demand and paying everyone, to do such an upscale, change DRASTICALLY would be incredibly difficult to do, especially with such a large labour force. I only have 4 people under my payroll, and i still wouldn't be able to make a drastic change.

My point is, everyone says they need to drop lots of money into Acura and soon, but you have to give it time, it can't be done at the drop of a hat.

So those modest improvements? Eventually it will get that RL to where it needs to be, ideally by the next change, but if not, then so be it. Honda KNOWS what needs to be done, they realize where these cars have to be placed, and they are doing it. TSX is moving up, TL is going after it's competitors, and soon the RL will be deemed worthy of being called a flagship uber sedan...but until then, we have to wait.

As for the dealership, i found here in Ottawa, as well as Toronto, the dealerships with Acura are much more helpful, informative and just more pleasant than Lexus. But that's just my luck i suppose.

Edit: *Note* GoHawks, none of that was fully directed at you or anyone else, my apologies if it seemed that way.

halfaznguy87

But thats what Nissan did to Infiniti.. We saw a major change from the G20 to the G35. Also when Infiniti came out with the 02 M45 and it was a failure, Infiniti wasted no time developing the new Ms based on the Nissan Fuga. And it worked out quite well for them.

TSX69

Rumor has it that the 2009 RL will be vastly different - only 2 body panels will remain (speculation being the hood & roof). It is supposed to be more aggressively styled w/ more rear leg room & trunk.
It will debut in the spring so you should have an idea of what it looks like in a couple of months.

The 2009 TL is set to debut in the fall so I imagine that you have another 1/2 year before you see what it looks like.

I think that you should @ the very least hold out until you know what the RL looks like since it is so close ...

neuronbob

Tommy, it's only a three week wait until the reported introduction of the new RL, so if I were in your shoes, I'd hold off at least that long, and then decide on the new vs the old.

GoHawks

No offense taken, and I actually agree with you completely.

This new position I took which required me to move from Illinois to SE Michigan involved taking an organization through a transformational change. Everyone is focusing on this new system we're going to put in place, but it's much larger than that. The system will help us understand better where we need to improve.

If I were to enumerate everything that we needed to do here, I could run up a wish list of hundreds of millions of dollars, and I would be quickly run out of town.

The system we're installing is the "hardwood floor" you mentioned, and we'll slowly build from there.

I'm sure the current gen RL will provide the learnings they need to build a true flagship.

Heck we've already seen progress. How long did the previous gen RL languish? 10 years?

Here we're seeing a MMC after three years and a FMC after five.

SpicyMikey

I agree GoHawks. Even if the next RL isn't everything we'd like. I'm very impressed Acura is even DOING this drastic refresh after 3.5 years. It shows they ARE serious about this brand afterall. It's good to see.

Ibn Rushd

Well, in comparison, my uncle also renovated his house and easily put down 70+ thousand dollars for it. In one shot. Now, he got it all done at once, and it worked. Awesome.

There is no way in hell I could ever drop that much money at one shot and still live in a house and eat. Not happening. Some can do it, some can't.

You're right though, Nissan did it and it definitely worked. But if Honda is already in the process of taking it slowly, why speed it up?

Acura North America had an NSX for 15 years and the RL for 10 as someone just mentioned. And i completely agree, 3.5 and such a massive upgrade...well it's working. But my point is Nissan may have been able to do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that Honda can.

I see less M's from Infiniti than i do RL's...last i heard even though M35/M45 were great, they still aren't selling as they should be. Maybe it's me though..but with growing gas prices, not many people are willing to drop cash for an Acura of that calibur, so to me, even if Honda can, i don't see the need to do it right this second either. So i'd just wait for the full model change...atleast they're showing that they do care by changing this RL now quite a bit more than they usually would.

Even back to my "hardwood floors" scenario, if you don't have it, usually it's the first thing to do, (probably with paint as well), because it's get you the most payoff in the end...and what is Honda doing first to the RL? Cabin space and engine size...modest again, but they're going in the right direction.

GoHawks

With all the praise going Infiniti's way, I'm surprised so many of you have short memories.

The first generation G was out from 1991 through 2002, hardly blistering product development.




Then we had the j30 that went five years before they pulled the plug.


Then we had the M30 that went from 1990 - 92



and what about the multiple versions of the Q.

The first generation of G35 was Nissan's first real hit. They then took the same formula, increased the size a bit and they got the M35/45 (again after one iteration).

During that span Acura has done pretty well with the Legend and the TL, and moderate success with the Integra and TSX.

I just wanted to ground everyone when they're gushing over Infiniti.

Mike_TX

The short answer to this question is that RL sales have been in the tank for 3 years, and the dealer network is screaming for some relief. Not only that, Honda is in the uncomfortable position of having their flagship car go largely unnoticed.

Competition requires that you keep up, and the car business is extremely competitive. If Honda/Acura doesn't do something soon, it will lose lots of valuable customers ... and no car company can afford to do that.

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jhr3uva90

Nissan can pour more money into Infiniti because of the capital infusion they got when Renault bought a percentage of Nissan. Honda, on the other hand, is completely independent and must put their resources into motorcycles, planes, etc. as well as cars. That might be a reason behind Honda's "go slow" approach. That might also be the reason why Honda would rather bolt SH-AWD onto their Acura cars instead of creating a separate RWD platform for them. Personally, I have much respect for Nissan's approach for Infiniti.

halfaznguy87

Yeah, Nissan/Infiniti realized change was majorly needed -and fast, or they were going under. That change was the G35, M35/45, and FX 35/45.

Mike, takes the words right out of my mouth in the above comment.

jhr3uva90

Yes, but while Infiniti was creating vehicles with critical acclaim like the G and the M, Acura was creating . . . the RDX.

There is something wrong when the one feature that makes a vehicle unique is something that customers either don't understand or don't want. Yes, I am talking about SH-AWD. Acura needs more and quickly.

GoHawks

Completely agree. Was just pointing out that Infiniti went through considerable trial and error before they scored with the G & M.

cai06

IIRC, tomorrow is Jan 18, the day dealers can start ordering the new MMC 09 RL and FMC 09 TSX for Spring delivery, so I suppose more details should start leaking very soon...

SupaRookie

I hope to see the new design soon. I hope it will not disappoint!

SpicyMikey

Thanks for the history lesson. You're right. Our perspectives are warped sometimes. For many people (especially the 20 somethings), history is what happened in the last 5 years. The evolution of the car industry is slower then most other industries. These companies are setting "short term" business plans that extend out 15 years. I would imagine it's hard to meet the market pressures of today while also keeping your eye on your long term strategies.

black label

Kind of true...
They get their allocation the 18th, this allow them to know how many of each model they can order. The orders need to be in by 5pm pacific time on Tuesday the 22nd.

As excited as the we are about the coming of the 2nd gen TSX (that just sounds good, 2nd gen TSX) and "new" RL, I doubt the sales managers and GM's who do the ordering will do anything before Tuesday morning.

tommyz

thanks for all the good advice guys.

I despise the thought of getting a car and having the new bodystyle park next to me

Ibn Rushd

Granted, but if the car, in 2 years is going to have a major model change anyway and is already budgeted for when it does happen, to throw the money earlier could prove to be worse because they may not have enough.

Competition does require you to keep up, but sometimes you have to stay behind in order to come out ahead in the end. For example, in a race (which is kind of what it is, bringing out the best car for the best price the fastest), the NSX would get destroyed in a straight away, but make it up in the turns at the end of the straight. Sometimes it'd be enough and sometimes it wouldn't be enough at that turn....

Honda just has to make sure that it is enough to make it through and come out ahead at the end of the turn...

TL and TSX are already undergoing model changes, which could be costing quite a bit, especially with a brand new TL and building prices rising and so forth. So to add a THIRD vehicle in that entire set up could prove to be worse. The new RL will be made based on where the TL is leaving off.

It'd hard to do all that hypothetically. If the TL does not sell as well as it currently does, it's worse trouble than the RL not selling now.

If the TL continues to sell well, then they can easily set up the RL to continue where the TL leaves off, and the money gained from TL sales, can be put into the RL to make a much better vehicle than they might be able to right now.

Perhaps that's why they are trying to change it, improve it a bit now, hopefully boost sales, and then when that new model comes in, it'll be okay.

I'd agree more on the aspect if it were the TL being discussed because most people who go for Acura look at the TL and TSX, not the RL. But if that TL formula comes out perfect, they can easily bring out the RL using a similar formula.

Once that RL comes out, the new TL will be in it's second year, people who come to look at that TL will see the RL and either say "I want that", or just go home in a TL.

For Acura, their TL is going to have to pay for and market the RL for them, and the customers will come. (But let's not get started on the marketing department for the RL...)

Mike_TX

I see your point, Chaos, but in the automobile business in 2008, 2 years is an eternity, and that's why Honda/Acura decided it HAD to do something with the RL now. They're bleeding customers, and with so much to choose from out there, you could lose a customer forever if you trip up.

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Chas2

Can you say Sprint/Nextel?

Chas2

Can you say Sprint?

Ibn Rushd

Agreed. For sure. But at least they are doing something now, although not drastic, it could be good.

2 years is definitely an eternity in this industry, that's for sure, but at least they're making changes to it now, although not drastic, but something different. Might just be able to hold it together until the full model change.

Rexorg

Can you say DISH Network?

krio

You are right Mike. And I continue to consider a mistery WHY Acura didn't present the RL in the second half of 2007, after 3 years of sellings, as the TL and TSX... No programs at all. No strategy. No marketing.

jhr3uva90

Actually, 2 years is not an eternity in the auto business. It often (but not always) takes that long just to reconfigure a factory to manufacture a minor model change. It isn't like the web development, substantial functionality can be added to a web site in a year.

Rexorg

Since the RL is designed and built in Japan there is always going to be a certain mind set as to what the RL should look like and to whom it should appeal. For the '09 MMC, and/or the '10 FMC to be a sales success there needs to be more American input as to design. When I took that online survey some months ago I was hoping Acura was waking up to what Americans want in their cars. We love technology, but there is always a limit as to what Americans will spend for a car regardless of all the technology it has. The survey asked (with a theoretical amount) we would spend for certain technologies. With the recession (3 of 4 Ameicans believe we are in a recession now according to the polls) at hand it is not the best of times to be introducing new car models for any company, especially luxury models. If our economy does tank then Acura and other luxury brands will be in big trouble, even if they are Japan based. Time will tell.

SpicyMikey

Agree. I think some of us are loosing perspective because we follow these things too closely. 2 years is not an eternity in most businesses much less the car industry. Acura made a mistake with the total package we call the "RL". No big deal. It hasn't brought them to the brink or damaged the Acura name.

Another point. Someone else made this point around here in the past and I think it was very astute. The RL is a sales failure, however, it's still a great car. In fact it generally gets very high marks in almost all reviews (except styling). It would be different if the car was a failure at a mechanical level (e.g. Ford Pinto). When those cars started blowing up in accidents, that was a REAL failure which hurt Ford's image in general and the Pinto's image in particular. They clearly needed to retire that name and put that failure behind them quickly. This "failure" with the RL has not hurt Acura or the RL name. In fact, except for those who follow such things, the public doesn't even realize the RL is a "failure". Restyle it and Acura is back on track. It's a great car that needs a few tweeks. We can probably say the same thing about Acura in general

GO GIANTS!

Mike_TX

I agree it takes a long time to retool and make design changes, but that's why car designs are pretty much finalized YEARS before they see the light of day in showrooms.

When I say 2 years can be "an eternity", I mean there are so many products coming online from other carmakers that a mfr can easily lose customers to someone else's dazzling new design if they delay too long in introducing theirs.

That design/product cycle used to be 5-6 years, but it's actually shrinking as new competitors from Asia, China, Europe and Korea come into the market.

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neuronbob

Just arrived back from Detroit after a pleasant afternoon perusing cars at the NAIAS.

Acura had a current 2G RL on the floor of its very large display, right next to an A-Spec-ized TL-S. The RL got quite a bit of attention as there was a line to get in it. The line wasn't as long as for the TL, but nevertheless, there was a line. This again tells us that Acura needs to let people know this car exists.

No juicy tidbits were to be had about the new RL, no one "knew" anything that we didn't already know.

The MDX was obviously the star of the show. Acura tried something different....not only was the MDX on a dais, it also had a cute lady extolling the features and encouraging people to get in it. I, of course, did, with my little 19-month-old. Unfortunately, Neuronbob III found his reflection in the beautiful black floor of the display far more interesting than the "Comfort" button on the center console of the MDX (controls the suspension). Any case, it looks like Acura is experimenting this year with what works for marketing. Good for them!

Acura display was right next to the Honda display. Before anyone starts whining about separating Acura and Honda......Lexus and Toyota were right next to each other, too.

The SH-AWD display was back this year. New this year was a standalone navi demonstration--you could work the same navi system as in the cars. No instant weather on this.....must be for the new RL only.

We'll be depending on Chicagoans to take pix of the new RL at the Chicago Auto Show in less than three weeks....

krio

I don't know. Don't understand. Why to present in Detroit the "old RL" when in ONLY 3 weeks they will show the Big restyled one in Chicago... The car is ready, of course to be in selling right now. I continue to believe they HAD to show it right now, in Detroit. Misteries of Acura.

TampaRLX-SH

Bob, I am kinda surprised you are not gushing over th CTS Coupe (concept), although it has been spoken to be an 09 model with a turbo diesel available.

Fess up.

Mike_TX

Interesting you bring that up. It's been covered extensively on the cadillacowners.com forum, and they link to dozens of pix of it.

I personally think it's a little blocky and stubby-looking, but there are lots of oohs' and ahh's going on over it. It's looking like slim and sleek is "out" at GM Design.

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