skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I live in the south so I can't speak to how a car ages up north, but I owned two bmw's previously, both for many years. my tl is 7 years old now, and is aging much better than either my 5-er or m3 did. I literally had to replace the radiator in my m3 3 times while I owned it, and the radiator overflow bottle once. never had any issues like that in either of my acuras.

Yumcha

I'm the better-looking one.

Curious3GTL

I should have put in my original post that I drove the 3.28i with no packages. I will agree that interiors have never been BMW's strong point, but the one I drove just didn't have that solid BMW "thud."

That's really great to hear about the software. I am sure had a driven one with an M sport suspension I probably would have loved it.

And you're absolutely right about 90% of buyers prefer that suspension. BMW clearly knows what they're doing and the fact that they sell close to 10,000 units a month. I actually think it's great BMW still offers sporty applications as an option. Next time I will just have to drive one instead of the base.

Legend2TL

Are you sure your TSX didn't have a rear brake light failure indicator on the dash?

Honda Accords have always had this since 1976, IIRC many Honda's and most Acura's have it as well. I know my TL and wife's Pilot have it.

kurtatx

BMWs do fine here. However, if you keep one for four or five years, you have to replace the roundel on the front, for sure.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

oh yeah I went through a few roundels myself. to be fair, I loved the way my m3 drove, but maintenance was no fun.

qingcong

I believe the majority of BMW sales are leases while it's the opposite for Acura. With their questionable reputation for reliability, it does make more sense to lease a BMW or Audi, or at least trade it in sooner rather than later. People who look to keep their cars for 8+ years and get their money's worth, those are probably the Honda and Toyota buyers. It's a trade-off between excitement and worse reliability vs. kind of boring but better reliability.

Belzebutt

Nope. For sure there isn't any.

krio

with the base package all the german brends look very cheap and naked... you have to pay for every option you get there. One year ago I was looking for buying a BMW X5.. There wasn't even the Bluetooth system... It costed smth like 900 euro to install it...
I wanted to change in the Audi A6, my 4 spoke st. wheels with a new one with 3-spoke and gear-shift paddles ... it costs 350 euro...: but to install it now in my car, will cost 1500 euros...
Worse of all, it is the Navi system: it costs full price 4 200 euro... but installing it now, would mean it smth like 7000 euro.

Fibonacci

"Hold their desirability longer"? By what metric? Because if you go by residual values, Acura has been a consistent benchmark.


"Way more stuff"? That's fairly broad paintbrush, I'm talking specifics like Navigation, Upgraded Sound, Torque vectoring AWD, etc. When I was shopping for a 6MT midsizer - it wasn't worth the premium to pay up for an S4.


Sharks with friggin' laser beams! Don't knock the jewel eyes until you see them for yourself.


You have a point compared to Benz or BMW, but not Audi comps. And they way that BMW's have morphed into fat pigs with less steering feel, they are not as vaunted as they used to be.


If equivalent Germans were only a few grand more and just as reliable, we would be having this conversation over in krautzine.

Belzebutt

Yeah they're awful with the options. I sat in a base X5 too, it felt incredibly cheap for the price.

Belzebutt

By my own metric: to me an old S4 is a nicer car than an old Acura.

Sure, I said Acura checks most of the bullet points didn't I? I also said how said bullet points don't tell the whole story, each feature is usually more fancy in the German cars.

The A4 platform only puts about 55% of the weight on the front, vs. something like 60% for your TL. The AWD puts 60% of the torque to the rear in normal conditions, what does your put? It's a rear-biased car while yours is a FWD car with added push to the rear. And few people get the FWD Audis anyway. Front overhangs are much less noticeable on the Audis, unlike the inevitable beaks on the Acura. It costs more to have a nicer car.

You have to defend your purchase, I get it. The premium feel isn't worth the money for everyone, I wouldn't recommend that everyone get an Audi instead of an Acura. If you can't tell the difference, by all means buy Japanese.

Fibonacci

I'm not defending anything, just explaining the rationale that drives my decisions. Buy what you want and get what's important to you.

If I were still single, am pretty sure I would make different choices, but as it stands we have 6 and 3yo boys who don't care what Mommy or Daddy's car looks like. The interior of our six month old MDX is pretty abused after a rough winter, that is what drives our choices currently. If I take a long toke off of Moog's pipe and get a fun car, better style and nicer "touches" will rank higher on the priority list.

Also, lets give kudos to Acura where a tip of the hat is due. They build very safe cars which is pretty important to me right now.

krio

I owned 2 Audis and 2 Acuras...
And I can say, that for my part, the TL 3G was and still is my beloved one, of all this bunch... I still regret, having sold it. A true sporty sedan... I loved the sound and look, and I didn't buy the TL because was a "reasonable" choice or for the value...
But because looked simply stunning in flesh, with the sport package...
Audis are far better for overall quality and luxury feel, but the MDX 2008 and the 3G TL were great cars too.

Belzebutt

I have kids around the same age and that's why I got a black interior and seat protectors for the Audi. It's actually holding up really well.

Yes, you got all the stuff that's important to you in the Acura and that's why some people buy these cars. Just as long you realize you didn't basically get the same thing as an S4 for less money.

For "best value" I would recommend people actually get the new Mazda 3, you can get as much or more tech than in any Acura (lane departure, blind spot monitoring, HUD, etc.) with pretty close fit and finish, for a lot less money. Of course sometimes we just want something nicer than "best value".

kurtatx

Mazda3s do get up there with all the options. A TSX would be better, but those don't exist anymore

Boulder TSX

Your points ring true given what each manufacturer has done recently...however, this comparison between Acura and Audi is not static and has not always been so one-sided. In the 80' and 90's and 2000's, Acura had cars that competed well with Audi at that time, (not to mention the NSX.)

We tend to forget that less than 10 years ago, the Acura TSX beat the Audi A4 in head-to head comparisons. (See Car & Driver link below).

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2004-acura-tsx-vs-audi-a4-vs-subaru-legacy-vs-volvo-s40-comparison-test

The 2004-08 TSX was also awarded "Car & Driver's 10 Best" -- three years in a row, (including one as "Best Sports Sedan".)

In 2008, Acura was #1 in resale value -- of all manufacturers.

In 2009, Acura fell back, reducing the quality of materials in their interiors, making their sedans' exteriors almost universally regarded as ugly...while not advancing engine and transmission technology.

As the A4 went from losing comparisons to the TSX, Audi raised their game that same year...making upgrades across the board in design, and performance. Its performance became better with direct injection and newer transmissions.

The new TLX will have direct injection, 8 & 9 speed transmissions, available SHAWD -- and the next year, D.I. turbo engines. It will also be lighter. The exterior has been roundly applauded by the automotive press, (Autoblog, C&D Road & Track), while the interior is supposed to have improved materials. Acura is finally making the right adjustments...we'll see how it works out.

krio

I agree about the technical improvement, a dual clutch 9 speed transmission is a great step forward, and so on.
But what about the turbos engines..? Are they confirmed for 2015...? I'm not sure...
"The exterior has been applauded"... Where? From whom?
I like it, think is better than the 4G one, (but it was a very easy task to get it better...) and it is still nothing special at all.

Boulder TSX

You are correct that the turbo D.I. engines have not been 'officially' confirmed for specific models, but the engines have been, (see links) -- with speculation by several automotive magazines that two of the three turbo engines will find their way to the TLX.

http://www.hondanews.ca/en/honda/press-release/Honda-Develops-VTEC-TURBO-Direct-Injection-Gasoline-Turbo-Engine-That-Achieves-Classleading-Output-and-Environmental-Performance

http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-i...kyo-auto-show/

As for the design of the new TLX, opinions about design and aesthetics are subjective, (for example, while trendsetting in recent years and still highly regarded, many feel that Audi design is getting tired and every model looks the same). Most people felt that from 2009-2014, Acura sedans were very ugly, while their SUVs were good-looking. ...and some misguided, strong-willed individuals will defend the beauty of their 4G TLs to the death.

--Right now, most reactions to the TLX have been positive. (But admittedly, the production car has not been released yet.)

From Car & Driver: "After an era of overwrought and aggressive styling, Honda’s luxury arm is reconnecting with the aesthetic senses of the rest of the world. The TLX concept is probably the most visually pleasing Acura in a long time."

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Hope those new transmissions serves up to the hype!

krio

ok, but a 2.0L turbo engine can do MUCH better than a 290hp 3.5L? don't know. Yes, it's lighter and punchier... and if we look at Audis engines, the new TTS got 310hp and the next RS - 380 hp, north.
And what about Acura's?

Belzebutt

Yep, I still have that copy of C&D (unless the wife threw it out ) and I remember being happy about it. I wouldn't have bought a B7 A4 over the TSX at the time, it didn't do anything for me. The B8 A4 is a different story.

Since then Audi introduced a new A4 platform that moved the front wheels forward, and made the styling more aggressive, while Acura introduced the power plenum grille.

Boulder TSX

Yes, we will see. Car & Driver estimated 300+ HP from the 2.0 D.I...which is more power than any current Audi 2.0 turbo four.

As for the (not released) 2016 TT, we will see with that, too. They are apparently considering a five cylinder for the RS. (The HP wars go on. Certainly durability has come into question with a 2.0 going above 300 HP.)

Of course, Honda is discussing turbo versions of their six, (as the S4 uses a supercharged 6).

I think the whole point here is that the technology Audi used (to make a jump from losing performance comparisons between the A4 and the TSX to having leading edge sports sedans again), is not unique, and Honda is finally using it in production cars, (instead of just racing.)

We'll see what transpires.

Boulder TSX

Completely agree.

Similarly, the new TLX reduces the front and rear overhang, (4 inches less)...and the power plenum is shrinking like George Costanza's equipment in cold water. (Hopefully it disappears altogether in the next few years.)

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Audi being compared to Acura. That's new.

krio

Why not? Even more if you owned both of them...

Boulder TSX

Well, Audi's bestselling cars were actually not so great just 9 years ago -- even when directly compared to Acura. (see below)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

Acura fell behind about five years ago with bad designs and stale engine technology, just as Audi did before that.

Acura is not equal or better than Audi right now in anything except reliability, resale value and sales numbers. (Amazingly, even through Acura's down cycle since 2009, Acura and Audi have virtually the same sales numbers here in the U.S. -- BMW soundly beats both in sales.)

But Audi made specific changes to climb out of their decline in performance and perception...Acura is making nearly identical changes.

I can't say that they will compare with Audi as well as they did before. But logic dictates that the TLX will be better on almost all fronts.

Belzebutt

Acura's selling as much as Audi for two reasons:
- Cheaper cars should sell in greater numbers.
- MDX: it looks great and it's probably the best SUV in its category. Hopefully the new MDX with its watered-down styling won't change that.

I'll definitely test drive the TLX when I get a chance. But I just feel like it won't be as exciting as an Audi or even a Lexus, Acura just hasn't been willing to go all the way. Take the wheels for example: the wheels and stance make or break a car's looks, and Acura's wheels choices are just not as good as Audi's and the sporty version usually has more wheel gap. Their concept cars are often great (e.g. the RL Type-S) but they're only there to tease us. I'm hoping they surprise me.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Logic?

Legend2TL

No, it's old. Here's a 2005 A6 losing to a 2005 RL in a comparison test

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

Boulder TSX

Your posts are too short to interpret...but I was simply saying the TLX should be better than the 2009-14 TL & TSX. Do you dispute that?

BTW, you were proven wrong on the last comment, (Acuras being compared to Audis is not new --and Acuras have beaten them in comparisons. Two examples given by two posters.) No comment on that?

Legend2TL

Reliability and resale are two more main factors. I know many one time Audi buyers (as well as a few one time Acura buyers 4/5AT woes) who will remain that way. Durability, reliability and dependability have plagued Audi for decades and that shows in their reputation.

You mentioned Audi electrical systems a page or so ago and how you felt they were superior to what Acura use. I've had the opposite expereicne looking at Audi's from the 70's to current. Their engine connectors tend to be good, mostly from Bosch connectors (the Bosch fuel injector electrical plug is so good even the Japanese copied the design). But the chassis connectors are of good to poor quality and design (cheap plating, lack of rubber boots/seals, lousy plug locking mechanism,....). IMO why they have such poor reliability of their electrical systems. A neighbor up the street had a persistent CAN bus failure on his A8, I took a look at what they used for the serial bus and it looked pretty pathetic. He got rid of the car while it was still under warranty and bought a 2G MDX. The best connectors I've seen on any car are the Toyota Hybrid powertrain connectors and the SRS connectors on Honda/Acura's.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I agree to that, no doubt.

But it's just silly to me that you are bringing up the comparison done in 2004.

Every regular on this forum knows how well TSX/3G TL faired against its competition back in the days, which was one of the reasons why I had bought a 3G TL brand new and drove it for 5 years.

And the reason why I do NOT write a post that explains this and that is because there's nothing much to talk about yet.

Just wait for Acura and other publications to release more information about TLX. Then, we can talk about it. There's no point in discussing how it will do or how Acura performed 9 years ago.

The OG AZine members are just disappointed in the car so far. The fanboys are just defending the brand whatsoever. We will just leave it at that until more information gets released.

oonowindoo

If you went through all 225 pages, i am sure your reply will be just as short as his.

We have said everything there is to be said. We even repeated ourselves many times. These are going to be the replies until TLX is released to the dealer.

Oh wait it is delayed. so yah don't expect anything constructive until Sept. or whenever Acura decides to release the TLX.

If you want to see something constructive, i suggest you to start reading from page 100 or so.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

In terms of reliability issue, my 2000 Accord and 2005 TL had so much more mechanical and electrical issues than my almost 5 years old Avant.

That's my experience with two brands.

oonowindoo

All my cars have been unreliable one way or the other...

So they are all the same. Maybe i am just too picky.

fsttyms1

But that in no means means its being applauded for being a good looking car, just that its better looking than the past designs.

oonowindoo

That was the statement for TLX Concept

Boulder TSX

You said: "Audi being compared to Acura. That's new."

Well, as you admitted, it obviously it isn't.

Acura has a 28 year history. A 9 year-old and 7 year-old comparison, (provided by another poster), is not ancient history...and even if it took place 28 years ago, in 1986, it would still make your statement untrue.

My point is that fairly recently, the second generation A4 was viewed as a lackluster car, after the first generation A4 was called "great". (Very similar to the TSX from first generation to second) --The A4 improved greatly -- due to engine and transmission technology -- the same technology being used in the TLX.

I agree with you that all of this discussion is moot until the car actually launches.

Boulder TSX

Seriously? I have owned Mercedes (SL) and Audi (2011 Q7)...with major problems. Anecdotal experience is valid for each of us, but nothing to show reality for a brand selling hundreds of thousands of vehicles a year. The data from millions of owners for many years running show that Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are the top in reliability. (And again this year.)