Acura: TLX News
04-30-2014, 05:19 PM
#8921
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
I think I see where you are coming from and I think that's a good point. It seems though the expectations are a bit too high though (which again is understandable given how important the TLX will be to Acura for their sedan revival).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that when you said "they needed a splash," instead of what we are seeing right now, you expect Acura to come up a sedan that would really kick @$$. Exterior, it would need to look as handsome as an Audi, as sporty as a BMW, and as elegant and classy as a Mercedes. For the interior, it needs to have both form and functions. In other words, the interior must be well built and designed with quality that is on par with Audi. For the chassis, it must out handle and drives better than the latest ATS, while delivering comfort level on par with Lexus and Mercedes. The engine must be more powerful than the 335i and S4, while the tranny must be a DCT type with more ratios than 335i. Performance needs to be the best in class, while achieving the best EPA ratings. For features, the base trim must be better equipped than anyone else. The top of the line model must include features found on all rivals, plus more. In terms of price, because it's an Acura, it must be priced like one. That means it needs to start at sub $30k, and cannot be more than $45k for the top model. On top of all those, the TLX must be as reliable and safe as any Honda.
If that's not the case, perhaps you can describe what you think the TLX should have been like.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that when you said "they needed a splash," instead of what we are seeing right now, you expect Acura to come up a sedan that would really kick @$$. Exterior, it would need to look as handsome as an Audi, as sporty as a BMW, and as elegant and classy as a Mercedes. For the interior, it needs to have both form and functions. In other words, the interior must be well built and designed with quality that is on par with Audi. For the chassis, it must out handle and drives better than the latest ATS, while delivering comfort level on par with Lexus and Mercedes. The engine must be more powerful than the 335i and S4, while the tranny must be a DCT type with more ratios than 335i. Performance needs to be the best in class, while achieving the best EPA ratings. For features, the base trim must be better equipped than anyone else. The top of the line model must include features found on all rivals, plus more. In terms of price, because it's an Acura, it must be priced like one. That means it needs to start at sub $30k, and cannot be more than $45k for the top model. On top of all those, the TLX must be as reliable and safe as any Honda.
If that's not the case, perhaps you can describe what you think the TLX should have been like.
04-30-2014, 05:22 PM
#8922
Instructor
Well this is an Acura board and this is a TL/TLX thread, so it shouldn't be surprising to find people here who like Honda/Acura. What seems more out of place is why you care so much to post so many insults in this thread when you care so little about Acura.
04-30-2014, 05:28 PM
#8923
I feel the need...
That's where the hypocrisy comes in. Other posters are free to lob insults at the TL/TLX but if anyone critiques another car (or calls ttribe's Two Ton Autoshifting Cabriolet) a chick car - it is a dastardly offense and a crime against humanity.
Like I said, get over yourself.
04-30-2014, 05:34 PM
#8924
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
I've cared long before you jumped on the fanboy bandwagon, Mr qingcong.
04-30-2014, 05:34 PM
#8925
I feel the need...
You have a very selective memory. I have expressed disdain for the weak powertrain in the ILX and the overpriced blandness of the RLX. Stop being a drama queen.
I think the TLX is an improvement and am looking forward to taking one for a drive. I am very disappointed that it appears Acura will no longer offer a 6MT with SH-AWD because it is a fun package.
04-30-2014, 05:46 PM
#8926
Moderator
Jeebus you really do take every post sooooo seriously. Feel free to repizzle all my flaming posts of hate.
That's where the hypocrisy comes in. Other posters are free to lob insults at the TL/TLX but if anyone critiques another car (or calls ttribe's Two Ton Autoshifting Cabriolet) a chick car - it is a dastardly offense and a crime against humanity.
Like I said, get over yourself.
That's where the hypocrisy comes in. Other posters are free to lob insults at the TL/TLX but if anyone critiques another car (or calls ttribe's Two Ton Autoshifting Cabriolet) a chick car - it is a dastardly offense and a crime against humanity.
Like I said, get over yourself.
04-30-2014, 05:58 PM
#8927
I feel the need...
Because I am objecting only to your insults directed at me, individually. Quit acting like a monkey throwing his feces at a passer-by to get attention, and doing so in my direction, and I don't have to point it out as being a childish deflection from the substance at hand.
Get over yourself. I'm done with this tit for tat with you. Stop posting in the TLX thread because it is such a bitter disappointment for you, even though you haven't driven it yet.
04-30-2014, 06:01 PM
#8928
Moderator
Oh please, stop with the ttribe taking the high road nonsense. You leghump the BRZ mafia all over the place who are the primary instigators in this thread.
Oh the irony of the your "boorish" insults is completely lost on you. The fact that you can't listen to critiques of other cars (only critiques of Acura) as equivalency for being monkey just shows how thin skinned and hypersensitive you are.
Get over yourself. I'm done with this tit for tat with you. Stop posting in the TLX thread because it is such a bitter disappointment for you, even though you haven't driven it yet.
Oh the irony of the your "boorish" insults is completely lost on you. The fact that you can't listen to critiques of other cars (only critiques of Acura) as equivalency for being monkey just shows how thin skinned and hypersensitive you are.
Get over yourself. I'm done with this tit for tat with you. Stop posting in the TLX thread because it is such a bitter disappointment for you, even though you haven't driven it yet.
04-30-2014, 06:09 PM
#8929
Team Owner
I think I see where you are coming from and I think that's a good point. It seems though the expectations are a bit too high though (which again is understandable given how important the TLX will be to Acura for their sedan revival).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that when you said "they needed a splash," instead of what we are seeing right now, you expect Acura to come up a sedan that would really kick @$$. Exterior, it would need to look as handsome as an Audi, as sporty as a BMW, and as elegant and classy as a Mercedes. For the interior, it needs to have both form and functions. In other words, the interior must be well built and designed with quality that is on par with Audi. For the chassis, it must out handle and drives better than the latest ATS, while delivering comfort level on par with Lexus and Mercedes. The engine must be more powerful than the 335i and S4, while the tranny must be a DCT type with more ratios than 335i. Performance needs to be the best in class, while achieving the best EPA ratings. For features, the base trim must be better equipped than anyone else. The top of the line model must include features found on all rivals, plus more. In terms of price, because it's an Acura, it must be priced like one. That means it needs to start at sub $30k, and cannot be more than $45k for the top model. On top of all those, the TLX must be as reliable and safe as any Honda.
If that's not the case, perhaps you can describe what you think the TLX should have been like.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that when you said "they needed a splash," instead of what we are seeing right now, you expect Acura to come up a sedan that would really kick @$$. Exterior, it would need to look as handsome as an Audi, as sporty as a BMW, and as elegant and classy as a Mercedes. For the interior, it needs to have both form and functions. In other words, the interior must be well built and designed with quality that is on par with Audi. For the chassis, it must out handle and drives better than the latest ATS, while delivering comfort level on par with Lexus and Mercedes. The engine must be more powerful than the 335i and S4, while the tranny must be a DCT type with more ratios than 335i. Performance needs to be the best in class, while achieving the best EPA ratings. For features, the base trim must be better equipped than anyone else. The top of the line model must include features found on all rivals, plus more. In terms of price, because it's an Acura, it must be priced like one. That means it needs to start at sub $30k, and cannot be more than $45k for the top model. On top of all those, the TLX must be as reliable and safe as any Honda.
If that's not the case, perhaps you can describe what you think the TLX should have been like.
But in reality, do you honestly see TLX can achieve any one of those things you just described? let alone all?
It looks better than 4g TL, but it is nowhere close to WOW Damn that looks good.
Engine - J35, K24, good engines but really nothing special
Interior - Acura has always had good interior, but it definitely not worlds better than its competitors.
Chassis - it is pretty safe to say - Accord, nothing wrong with it but not something you want to brag about.
Wheels - design = meh, size, 17, 18, maybe maybe 19, industry standard selections
Performance - again, will be in the middle of the pack but does not standout
features - Top of the line has all the modern features, so do competitions
Price - well we do not have to argue the fact that Acura needs to be cheaper than Germans because if it is not, no one will buy it.
you can't blame me for it, blame it on free market and consumers.
But it seems that Acura is increasing price significantly if RLX and TLX V6 AWD MSRP on the web is true. at $50k, you can't really call that a bargain or value anymore and that is not even the Type S (if there is ever one). Type S will be what? $55k?
So to summarize TLX - mid of the pack and nothing really special. How do you think that will help a Brand (Acura) that desperately needs to improve its sedan image and sales in the market after failure of TL, RL, RLX, ILX?
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-30-2014 at 06:12 PM.
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fsttyms1 (05-01-2014)
04-30-2014, 06:09 PM
#8930
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
I haven't driven the car yet obviously.
So, I won't say if it looks good or not.
Yeah.
So, I won't say if it looks good or not.
Yeah.
04-30-2014, 06:11 PM
#8931
I actually think the 2012+ TL is decent. The 2015 TLX only improves on it, both inside and out. The wood trim inside and exhaust tip delete are minor, but disappointing details. Acura still can't put decent wheels on most of their production vehicles. I really like that they scaled down the exterior dimensions, and the center stack seems less cluttered. Fewer buttons?
The bolded part is the problem. It's like Honda loves to take one step forward, two steps back. At least they have a DCT now.
04-30-2014, 06:16 PM
#8932
I feel the need...
But it seems that Acura is increasing price significantly if RLX and TLX V6 AWD MSRP on the web is true. at $50k, you can't really call that a bargain or value anymore and that is not even the Type S (if there is ever one). Type S will be what? $55k?
04-30-2014, 06:22 PM
#8933
I feel the need...
I really like that they scaled down the exterior dimensions, and the center stack seems less cluttered. Fewer buttons?
Def NOT a fan of the dual screen center stack. It's the biggest beef I have with my wife's new MDX - they really NEED to separate HVAC functions from the touchscreen with physical buttons.
04-30-2014, 06:32 PM
#8935
Team Owner
SH-AWD is not the equivalent of an Accord chassis - not even close to the same dynamics.
To repeat what I said earlier, the ADVANCE package full kit if it is at 50k will not transact there. The volume model's will be very much more affordable. But your point is taken, Acura needs to step up their game and their image before they can aggressively move real world pricing up the food chain. RLX is a case study on product placement fail.
To repeat what I said earlier, the ADVANCE package full kit if it is at 50k will not transact there. The volume model's will be very much more affordable. But your point is taken, Acura needs to step up their game and their image before they can aggressively move real world pricing up the food chain. RLX is a case study on product placement fail.
If it is the modified accord chassis, then let's just call it what it is. It is definitely not a brand new chassis that was purposely built for TLX to maximize performance.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-30-2014 at 06:35 PM.
04-30-2014, 06:41 PM
#8936
I feel the need...
Point being, the SH-AWD dynamics are totally different than F/F.
04-30-2014, 06:44 PM
#8937
Moderator
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that when you said "they needed a splash," instead of what we are seeing right now, you expect Acura to come up a sedan that would really kick @$$. Exterior, it would need to look as handsome as an Audi, as sporty as a BMW, and as elegant and classy as a Mercedes. For the interior, it needs to have both form and functions. In other words, the interior must be well built and designed with quality that is on par with Audi. For the chassis, it must out handle and drives better than the latest ATS, while delivering comfort level on par with Lexus and Mercedes. The engine must be more powerful than the 335i and S4, while the tranny must be a DCT type with more ratios than 335i. Performance needs to be the best in class, while achieving the best EPA ratings. For features, the base trim must be better equipped than anyone else. The top of the line model must include features found on all rivals, plus more. In terms of price, because it's an Acura, it must be priced like one. That means it needs to start at sub $30k, and cannot be more than $45k for the top model. On top of all those, the TLX must be as reliable and safe as any Honda.
The 5G needed to get back to a 3G-like impact. They had a chance to change the corporate "face" of Acura and drop the beak entirely. They didn't do it. When the 5G concept hit, I specifically said I was cautiously optimistic. But, they dumbed it down for production. It's not as eye catching and interesting as it was in concept form (most cars aren't, but really there's little on the concept that couldn't have made it to production). We've been hearing about new engines for years now. What did we get? The same old engines, slightly improved. We got a DCT, but only with a NA 4-cyl. We got a FWD based model...why? Why not go back to the RL way - SH-AWD or nothing. Give people a reason, other than price alone, to look at this car over the competitors. They didn't do it.
Other than to save a few bucks, there's no compelling reason to choose this car over anything else in the segment. That's the same as Buick and Lincoln. That was Cadillac for a long time and look at how they've dragged themselves out of that mess. Now, as I said, if Acura is content with that market position, then say so. Own up to it and be good at it. But, that's not what we're told. We're told they can compete with "the Germans" and with Lexus, but they don't. We're told they will take a new direction, but they don't. They've built the expectations and then not delivered. That there is anger from (former) enthusiasts is not because of outsized expectations of the enthusiasts' making; they were made by Acura and Acura let us down, again.
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04-30-2014, 06:51 PM
#8938
This drivel still going on?
It's no wonder why this thread has the most replies and views than any other.
Replies: 8,887
Views: 408,892
It's no wonder why this thread has the most replies and views than any other.
Replies: 8,887
Views: 408,892
04-30-2014, 06:53 PM
#8939
Team Owner
So the conclusion is it is a different chassis than Accord? I hope that is true but i have a feeling based on previous gen TL, it is the other way around.
dynamics can be affected by many things i am sure even the FWD TL and FWD Accord have different driving dynamics even though they share many things under the skin.
CL-S even share the same shocks and springs as V6 accord but still do not feel the same.
04-30-2014, 10:05 PM
#8941
Instructor
While I can appreciate what you're driving at, I don't think that's really a fair summary of what I'm suggesting...and I can only speak for me. Let me put it this way - when the 3G hit the market, it was significant. You couldn't get near the features or performance of that car in a competitor that wasn't priced $5k-$10k more than the 3G. By the time the 4G came out, the market had changed dramatically. New engines, new transmissions, better chassis, all of these at competitors and the incremental change from previous generations was really quite large. 300hp became the new normal for a mid-size lux sedan. Interior materials and fit and finish were vastly improved. Much like the NSX, the 3G moved the needle in its segment. The 4G didn't. It was almost universally derided for its styling, its aging technology, its girth, and its low to middling performance.
The 5G needed to get back to a 3G-like impact. They had a chance to change the corporate "face" of Acura and drop the beak entirely. They didn't do it. When the 5G concept hit, I specifically said I was cautiously optimistic. But, they dumbed it down for production. It's not as eye catching and interesting as it was in concept form (most cars aren't, but really there's little on the concept that couldn't have made it to production). We've been hearing about new engines for years now. What did we get? The same old engines, slightly improved. We got a DCT, but only with a NA 4-cyl. We got a FWD based model...why? Why not go back to the RL way - SH-AWD or nothing. Give people a reason, other than price alone, to look at this car over the competitors. They didn't do it.
Other than to save a few bucks, there's no compelling reason to choose this car over anything else in the segment. That's the same as Buick and Lincoln. That was Cadillac for a long time and look at how they've dragged themselves out of that mess. Now, as I said, if Acura is content with that market position, then say so. Own up to it and be good at it. But, that's not what we're told. We're told they can compete with "the Germans" and with Lexus, but they don't. We're told they will take a new direction, but they don't. They've built the expectations and then not delivered. That there is anger from (former) enthusiasts is not because of outsized expectations of the enthusiasts' making; they were made by Acura and Acura let us down, again.
The 5G needed to get back to a 3G-like impact. They had a chance to change the corporate "face" of Acura and drop the beak entirely. They didn't do it. When the 5G concept hit, I specifically said I was cautiously optimistic. But, they dumbed it down for production. It's not as eye catching and interesting as it was in concept form (most cars aren't, but really there's little on the concept that couldn't have made it to production). We've been hearing about new engines for years now. What did we get? The same old engines, slightly improved. We got a DCT, but only with a NA 4-cyl. We got a FWD based model...why? Why not go back to the RL way - SH-AWD or nothing. Give people a reason, other than price alone, to look at this car over the competitors. They didn't do it.
Other than to save a few bucks, there's no compelling reason to choose this car over anything else in the segment. That's the same as Buick and Lincoln. That was Cadillac for a long time and look at how they've dragged themselves out of that mess. Now, as I said, if Acura is content with that market position, then say so. Own up to it and be good at it. But, that's not what we're told. We're told they can compete with "the Germans" and with Lexus, but they don't. We're told they will take a new direction, but they don't. They've built the expectations and then not delivered. That there is anger from (former) enthusiasts is not because of outsized expectations of the enthusiasts' making; they were made by Acura and Acura let us down, again.
I basically agree with your assessment of recent Acura offerings. 4G TL, ILX, ZDX, RLX were kind of not very good cars, but it doesn't make me mad at them. It's not as if they messed up my life. They don't owe me a great lineup of cars. They owe it to themselves to make cars that sell well, but it's not something that makes me mad if it doesn't happen.
Before knocking the TLX engines, I would just say that on paper Acuras have never been very impressive. The NSX's 270hp was nothing compared to the Ferrari 355s, 360s, and Diablos of the day, but the NSX was about how it drove - the complete package and not one specific parameter. For example, yes the 2.4L doesn't make a ton of hp, but they also reduced weight on the car and added an 8DCT to make it "1.5sec" faster or whatever. So I mean, I think the TLX is an example of that balanced sort of design that I like Honda for. It's not quite the extreme aggressive risky design some of us would have liked them to do. It's a solid offering on paper though, and we've yet to see how it drives.
04-30-2014, 10:13 PM
#8942
Moderator
I basically agree with your assessment of recent Acura offerings. 4G TL, ILX, ZDX, RLX were kind of not very good cars, but it doesn't make me mad at them. It's not as if they messed up my life. They don't owe me a great lineup of cars. They owe it to themselves to make cars that sell well, but it's not something that makes me mad if it doesn't happen.
05-01-2014, 12:39 PM
#8943
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Well if Acura comes up with a car that you just described, i am willing to pay MORE than what i paid for 335 for it.
But in reality, do you honestly see TLX can achieve any one of those things you just described? let alone all?
It looks better than 4g TL, but it is nowhere close to WOW Damn that looks good.
Engine - J35, K24, good engines but really nothing special
Interior - Acura has always had good interior, but it definitely not worlds better than its competitors.
Chassis - it is pretty safe to say - Accord, nothing wrong with it but not something you want to brag about.
Wheels - design = meh, size, 17, 18, maybe maybe 19, industry standard selections
Performance - again, will be in the middle of the pack but does not standout
features - Top of the line has all the modern features, so do competitions
Price - well we do not have to argue the fact that Acura needs to be cheaper than Germans because if it is not, no one will buy it.
you can't blame me for it, blame it on free market and consumers.
But it seems that Acura is increasing price significantly if RLX and TLX V6 AWD MSRP on the web is true. at $50k, you can't really call that a bargain or value anymore and that is not even the Type S (if there is ever one). Type S will be what? $55k?
So to summarize TLX - mid of the pack and nothing really special. How do you think that will help a Brand (Acura) that desperately needs to improve its sedan image and sales in the market after failure of TL, RL, RLX, ILX?
But in reality, do you honestly see TLX can achieve any one of those things you just described? let alone all?
It looks better than 4g TL, but it is nowhere close to WOW Damn that looks good.
Engine - J35, K24, good engines but really nothing special
Interior - Acura has always had good interior, but it definitely not worlds better than its competitors.
Chassis - it is pretty safe to say - Accord, nothing wrong with it but not something you want to brag about.
Wheels - design = meh, size, 17, 18, maybe maybe 19, industry standard selections
Performance - again, will be in the middle of the pack but does not standout
features - Top of the line has all the modern features, so do competitions
Price - well we do not have to argue the fact that Acura needs to be cheaper than Germans because if it is not, no one will buy it.
you can't blame me for it, blame it on free market and consumers.
But it seems that Acura is increasing price significantly if RLX and TLX V6 AWD MSRP on the web is true. at $50k, you can't really call that a bargain or value anymore and that is not even the Type S (if there is ever one). Type S will be what? $55k?
So to summarize TLX - mid of the pack and nothing really special. How do you think that will help a Brand (Acura) that desperately needs to improve its sedan image and sales in the market after failure of TL, RL, RLX, ILX?
I appreciate your views on the various aspects of the vehicles. Here's how I see it though.
Looks - I agree with you on that. Though I feel this is going back to the Acura way - non-offensive clean designs that age well
Engine - Previous iterations of the K24 and J35 have been good and underrated. Certainly not class leading like the N54/55, but I think they are competitive against most of the other competitors. I think we need to factor in the gearboxes too. On paper, the trannies are pretty much class-leading as most are using 6AT, 7AT, or 8AT. Is there any direct competitor that has DCT? Obviously there haven't been any reviews on them yet. But if they deliver, I feel that these trannies can "mask" the shortcomings of these engines.
Interior - Agreed
Chassis - It's true that the TLX is based on the Accord. But hasn't that been the case for the past 15 years or so since the 2G TL? The 3G in particular was praised for its good handling. Obviously during the 2G and 3G era, cars in this class were less powerful. Now that every car is at the 300hp level, FWD isn't enough. But then, there's the SH-AWD model to do the job.
Performance - You are probably right that it will be mid pack. At the very least, it will be behind 335i. But then, who isn't slower than the 335i other than the S4 which IMO is half a class above. The likes of Q50, IS350, ATS 3.6 are all high 13's/low 14's cars. The existing 3800lb 4G TL 6MT is just as fast, if not faster than these.
Features -That's true for the most part, though the TLX I believe still has a few things that are unique to itself. But when you factor in the price....it's a different story.
Price - for sure. I mean at $50k, a car can still be a bargain if others are at $60k or so fully loaded. However, I feel that the $50k trim is more of a "halo" trim. It's just there to satisfy those who have been complaining that the TL does not offer enough features to match others. I think we need to look at the whole pricing structure of the car rather than focusing on the top trim. For instance, a base Q50 starts at $37k, but it can go up to $54k with a Q50S AWD with navi pkg, deluxe touring pkg, and tech pkg. Another example is the ATS. It starts at $34k. However, if you opt for a ATS 3.6 AWD with 19" rims, premium pkg, moonroof, cold weather pkg, driver assist pkg, then you are looking at $53k. Keep in mind that these are not even the top German brands.
While I can appreciate what you're driving at, I don't think that's really a fair summary of what I'm suggesting...and I can only speak for me. Let me put it this way - when the 3G hit the market, it was significant. You couldn't get near the features or performance of that car in a competitor that wasn't priced $5k-$10k more than the 3G. By the time the 4G came out, the market had changed dramatically. New engines, new transmissions, better chassis, all of these at competitors and the incremental change from previous generations was really quite large. 300hp became the new normal for a mid-size lux sedan. Interior materials and fit and finish were vastly improved. Much like the NSX, the 3G moved the needle in its segment. The 4G didn't. It was almost universally derided for its styling, its aging technology, its girth, and its low to middling performance.
The 5G needed to get back to a 3G-like impact. They had a chance to change the corporate "face" of Acura and drop the beak entirely. They didn't do it. When the 5G concept hit, I specifically said I was cautiously optimistic. But, they dumbed it down for production. It's not as eye catching and interesting as it was in concept form (most cars aren't, but really there's little on the concept that couldn't have made it to production). We've been hearing about new engines for years now. What did we get? The same old engines, slightly improved. We got a DCT, but only with a NA 4-cyl. We got a FWD based model...why? Why not go back to the RL way - SH-AWD or nothing. Give people a reason, other than price alone, to look at this car over the competitors. They didn't do it.
Other than to save a few bucks, there's no compelling reason to choose this car over anything else in the segment. That's the same as Buick and Lincoln. That was Cadillac for a long time and look at how they've dragged themselves out of that mess. Now, as I said, if Acura is content with that market position, then say so. Own up to it and be good at it. But, that's not what we're told. We're told they can compete with "the Germans" and with Lexus, but they don't. We're told they will take a new direction, but they don't. They've built the expectations and then not delivered. That there is anger from (former) enthusiasts is not because of outsized expectations of the enthusiasts' making; they were made by Acura and Acura let us down, again.
The 5G needed to get back to a 3G-like impact. They had a chance to change the corporate "face" of Acura and drop the beak entirely. They didn't do it. When the 5G concept hit, I specifically said I was cautiously optimistic. But, they dumbed it down for production. It's not as eye catching and interesting as it was in concept form (most cars aren't, but really there's little on the concept that couldn't have made it to production). We've been hearing about new engines for years now. What did we get? The same old engines, slightly improved. We got a DCT, but only with a NA 4-cyl. We got a FWD based model...why? Why not go back to the RL way - SH-AWD or nothing. Give people a reason, other than price alone, to look at this car over the competitors. They didn't do it.
Other than to save a few bucks, there's no compelling reason to choose this car over anything else in the segment. That's the same as Buick and Lincoln. That was Cadillac for a long time and look at how they've dragged themselves out of that mess. Now, as I said, if Acura is content with that market position, then say so. Own up to it and be good at it. But, that's not what we're told. We're told they can compete with "the Germans" and with Lexus, but they don't. We're told they will take a new direction, but they don't. They've built the expectations and then not delivered. That there is anger from (former) enthusiasts is not because of outsized expectations of the enthusiasts' making; they were made by Acura and Acura let us down, again.
I agree the looks of the production model is underwhelming. However I'm glad that it's not as ugly as the 2009 TL.
The tranny...yea it's too bad the DCT is only for the 2.4. But still the 9AT in the V6 still has the most ratios out there.
I think it's always been expected to be FWD based. The mighty 3G TL was FWD only and it was a huge success as you said. Besides, SH-AWD doesn't get the credit it deserves and is hugely underrated. Customers simply don't know the benefits of that system. If Acura were to just offer SH-AWD only on the TLX, people will think that's a waste of money and feel that the car must consumes a lot of fuel.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
05-01-2014, 01:02 PM
#8944
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
For sure, the upcoming TLX is certainly not what I had described earlier. It would be immense if Acura can make something like that though.
I appreciate your views on the various aspects of the vehicles. Here's how I see it though.
Looks - I agree with you on that. Though I feel this is going back to the Acura way - non-offensive clean designs that age well
Engine - Previous iterations of the K24 and J35 have been good and underrated. Certainly not class leading like the N54/55, but I think they are competitive against most of the other competitors. I think we need to factor in the gearboxes too. On paper, the trannies are pretty much class-leading as most are using 6AT, 7AT, or 8AT. Is there any direct competitor that has DCT? Obviously there haven't been any reviews on them yet. But if they deliver, I feel that these trannies can "mask" the shortcomings of these engines.
Interior - Agreed
Chassis - It's true that the TLX is based on the Accord. But hasn't that been the case for the past 15 years or so since the 2G TL? The 3G in particular was praised for its good handling. Obviously during the 2G and 3G era, cars in this class were less powerful. Now that every car is at the 300hp level, FWD isn't enough. But then, there's the SH-AWD model to do the job.
Performance - You are probably right that it will be mid pack. At the very least, it will be behind 335i. But then, who isn't slower than the 335i other than the S4 which IMO is half a class above. The likes of Q50, IS350, ATS 3.6 are all high 13's/low 14's cars. The existing 3800lb 4G TL 6MT is just as fast, if not faster than these.
Features -That's true for the most part, though the TLX I believe still has a few things that are unique to itself. But when you factor in the price....it's a different story.
Price - for sure. I mean at $50k, a car can still be a bargain if others are at $60k or so fully loaded. However, I feel that the $50k trim is more of a "halo" trim. It's just there to satisfy those who have been complaining that the TL does not offer enough features to match others. I think we need to look at the whole pricing structure of the car rather than focusing on the top trim. For instance, a base Q50 starts at $37k, but it can go up to $54k with a Q50S AWD with navi pkg, deluxe touring pkg, and tech pkg. Another example is the ATS. It starts at $34k. However, if you opt for a ATS 3.6 AWD with 19" rims, premium pkg, moonroof, cold weather pkg, driver assist pkg, then you are looking at $53k. Keep in mind that these are not even the top German brands.
I agree with your analysis of the 3G TL and 4G TL. The 3G TL came out as a really good performer at a good price. I think that's a combination of a job well done by Acura AND the fact that the overall competition was just less intense back then. At that time, it was really the 3 series, A4, and C Class. The IS was crap, and the CTS was new to the market (i.e. Cadillac learning the market). The G was new but great at that time as well. Within several years though, everyone got up to speed, and Acura no longer had that advantage.
I agree the looks of the production model is underwhelming. However I'm glad that it's not as ugly as the 2009 TL.
The tranny...yea it's too bad the DCT is only for the 2.4. But still the 9AT in the V6 still has the most ratios out there.
I think it's always been expected to be FWD based. The mighty 3G TL was FWD only and it was a huge success as you said. Besides, SH-AWD doesn't get the credit it deserves and is hugely underrated. Customers simply don't know the benefits of that system. If Acura were to just offer SH-AWD only on the TLX, people will think that's a waste of money and feel that the car must consumes a lot of fuel.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
I appreciate your views on the various aspects of the vehicles. Here's how I see it though.
Looks - I agree with you on that. Though I feel this is going back to the Acura way - non-offensive clean designs that age well
Engine - Previous iterations of the K24 and J35 have been good and underrated. Certainly not class leading like the N54/55, but I think they are competitive against most of the other competitors. I think we need to factor in the gearboxes too. On paper, the trannies are pretty much class-leading as most are using 6AT, 7AT, or 8AT. Is there any direct competitor that has DCT? Obviously there haven't been any reviews on them yet. But if they deliver, I feel that these trannies can "mask" the shortcomings of these engines.
Interior - Agreed
Chassis - It's true that the TLX is based on the Accord. But hasn't that been the case for the past 15 years or so since the 2G TL? The 3G in particular was praised for its good handling. Obviously during the 2G and 3G era, cars in this class were less powerful. Now that every car is at the 300hp level, FWD isn't enough. But then, there's the SH-AWD model to do the job.
Performance - You are probably right that it will be mid pack. At the very least, it will be behind 335i. But then, who isn't slower than the 335i other than the S4 which IMO is half a class above. The likes of Q50, IS350, ATS 3.6 are all high 13's/low 14's cars. The existing 3800lb 4G TL 6MT is just as fast, if not faster than these.
Features -That's true for the most part, though the TLX I believe still has a few things that are unique to itself. But when you factor in the price....it's a different story.
Price - for sure. I mean at $50k, a car can still be a bargain if others are at $60k or so fully loaded. However, I feel that the $50k trim is more of a "halo" trim. It's just there to satisfy those who have been complaining that the TL does not offer enough features to match others. I think we need to look at the whole pricing structure of the car rather than focusing on the top trim. For instance, a base Q50 starts at $37k, but it can go up to $54k with a Q50S AWD with navi pkg, deluxe touring pkg, and tech pkg. Another example is the ATS. It starts at $34k. However, if you opt for a ATS 3.6 AWD with 19" rims, premium pkg, moonroof, cold weather pkg, driver assist pkg, then you are looking at $53k. Keep in mind that these are not even the top German brands.
I agree with your analysis of the 3G TL and 4G TL. The 3G TL came out as a really good performer at a good price. I think that's a combination of a job well done by Acura AND the fact that the overall competition was just less intense back then. At that time, it was really the 3 series, A4, and C Class. The IS was crap, and the CTS was new to the market (i.e. Cadillac learning the market). The G was new but great at that time as well. Within several years though, everyone got up to speed, and Acura no longer had that advantage.
I agree the looks of the production model is underwhelming. However I'm glad that it's not as ugly as the 2009 TL.
The tranny...yea it's too bad the DCT is only for the 2.4. But still the 9AT in the V6 still has the most ratios out there.
I think it's always been expected to be FWD based. The mighty 3G TL was FWD only and it was a huge success as you said. Besides, SH-AWD doesn't get the credit it deserves and is hugely underrated. Customers simply don't know the benefits of that system. If Acura were to just offer SH-AWD only on the TLX, people will think that's a waste of money and feel that the car must consumes a lot of fuel.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
I mean it.
The following users liked this post:
qingcong (05-01-2014)
05-01-2014, 01:05 PM
#8945
Senior Moderator
You're spot on with everything you said IMO. But...
Therin lies the problem. People look at the car, look at the specs and will immediately dismiss it. They won't wait or ever see the any actual tests or its acceleration times. Conclusions won't be drawn by the average customer because they car was forgotten about 5 minutes after they laid eyes on it. And we all know Acura marketing won't draw them back in.
That's the battle the car faces.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
That's the battle the car faces.
Last edited by dom; 05-01-2014 at 01:13 PM.
05-01-2014, 01:07 PM
#8946
You're spot on with everything you said IMO. But...
Therin lies the problem. People look at the car, look at the specs and will immediately dismiss it. They won't wait or ever see the any actual tests or its acceleration times. Conclusions won't be drawn by the average customer because they car was forgotten about 5 minutes after they laid eyes on it. And we all know Acura marketing won't draw them back in.
That's the battle the car faces.
Therin lies the problem. People look at the car, look at the specs and will immediately dismiss it. They won't wait or ever see the any actual tests or its acceleration times. Conclusions won't be drawn by the average customer because they car was forgotten about 5 minutes after they laid eyes on it. And we all know Acura marketing won't draw them back in.
That's the battle the car faces.
Last edited by dom; 05-01-2014 at 01:13 PM.
05-01-2014, 01:11 PM
#8947
Senior Moderator
. Hell, my mind was made up on buying a 1G TSX long before it hit dealers or saw road tests. Honda had that power over many. Not really the case anymore.
05-01-2014, 01:20 PM
#8948
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
05-01-2014, 01:24 PM
#8949
Some dude
05-01-2014, 01:24 PM
#8950
Team Owner
For sure, the upcoming TLX is certainly not what I had described earlier. It would be immense if Acura can make something like that though.
I appreciate your views on the various aspects of the vehicles. Here's how I see it though.
Looks - I agree with you on that. Though I feel this is going back to the Acura way - non-offensive clean designs that age well
Engine - Previous iterations of the K24 and J35 have been good and underrated. Certainly not class leading like the N54/55, but I think they are competitive against most of the other competitors. I think we need to factor in the gearboxes too. On paper, the trannies are pretty much class-leading as most are using 6AT, 7AT, or 8AT. Is there any direct competitor that has DCT? Obviously there haven't been any reviews on them yet. But if they deliver, I feel that these trannies can "mask" the shortcomings of these engines.
Interior - Agreed
Chassis - It's true that the TLX is based on the Accord. But hasn't that been the case for the past 15 years or so since the 2G TL? The 3G in particular was praised for its good handling. Obviously during the 2G and 3G era, cars in this class were less powerful. Now that every car is at the 300hp level, FWD isn't enough. But then, there's the SH-AWD model to do the job.
Performance - You are probably right that it will be mid pack. At the very least, it will be behind 335i. But then, who isn't slower than the 335i other than the S4 which IMO is half a class above. The likes of Q50, IS350, ATS 3.6 are all high 13's/low 14's cars. The existing 3800lb 4G TL 6MT is just as fast, if not faster than these.
Features -That's true for the most part, though the TLX I believe still has a few things that are unique to itself. But when you factor in the price....it's a different story.
Price - for sure. I mean at $50k, a car can still be a bargain if others are at $60k or so fully loaded. However, I feel that the $50k trim is more of a "halo" trim. It's just there to satisfy those who have been complaining that the TL does not offer enough features to match others. I think we need to look at the whole pricing structure of the car rather than focusing on the top trim. For instance, a base Q50 starts at $37k, but it can go up to $54k with a Q50S AWD with navi pkg, deluxe touring pkg, and tech pkg. Another example is the ATS. It starts at $34k. However, if you opt for a ATS 3.6 AWD with 19" rims, premium pkg, moonroof, cold weather pkg, driver assist pkg, then you are looking at $53k. Keep in mind that these are not even the top German brands.
I agree with your analysis of the 3G TL and 4G TL. The 3G TL came out as a really good performer at a good price. I think that's a combination of a job well done by Acura AND the fact that the overall competition was just less intense back then. At that time, it was really the 3 series, A4, and C Class. The IS was crap, and the CTS was new to the market (i.e. Cadillac learning the market). The G was new but great at that time as well. Within several years though, everyone got up to speed, and Acura no longer had that advantage.
I agree the looks of the production model is underwhelming. However I'm glad that it's not as ugly as the 2009 TL.
The tranny...yea it's too bad the DCT is only for the 2.4. But still the 9AT in the V6 still has the most ratios out there.
I think it's always been expected to be FWD based. The mighty 3G TL was FWD only and it was a huge success as you said. Besides, SH-AWD doesn't get the credit it deserves and is hugely underrated. Customers simply don't know the benefits of that system. If Acura were to just offer SH-AWD only on the TLX, people will think that's a waste of money and feel that the car must consumes a lot of fuel.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
I appreciate your views on the various aspects of the vehicles. Here's how I see it though.
Looks - I agree with you on that. Though I feel this is going back to the Acura way - non-offensive clean designs that age well
Engine - Previous iterations of the K24 and J35 have been good and underrated. Certainly not class leading like the N54/55, but I think they are competitive against most of the other competitors. I think we need to factor in the gearboxes too. On paper, the trannies are pretty much class-leading as most are using 6AT, 7AT, or 8AT. Is there any direct competitor that has DCT? Obviously there haven't been any reviews on them yet. But if they deliver, I feel that these trannies can "mask" the shortcomings of these engines.
Interior - Agreed
Chassis - It's true that the TLX is based on the Accord. But hasn't that been the case for the past 15 years or so since the 2G TL? The 3G in particular was praised for its good handling. Obviously during the 2G and 3G era, cars in this class were less powerful. Now that every car is at the 300hp level, FWD isn't enough. But then, there's the SH-AWD model to do the job.
Performance - You are probably right that it will be mid pack. At the very least, it will be behind 335i. But then, who isn't slower than the 335i other than the S4 which IMO is half a class above. The likes of Q50, IS350, ATS 3.6 are all high 13's/low 14's cars. The existing 3800lb 4G TL 6MT is just as fast, if not faster than these.
Features -That's true for the most part, though the TLX I believe still has a few things that are unique to itself. But when you factor in the price....it's a different story.
Price - for sure. I mean at $50k, a car can still be a bargain if others are at $60k or so fully loaded. However, I feel that the $50k trim is more of a "halo" trim. It's just there to satisfy those who have been complaining that the TL does not offer enough features to match others. I think we need to look at the whole pricing structure of the car rather than focusing on the top trim. For instance, a base Q50 starts at $37k, but it can go up to $54k with a Q50S AWD with navi pkg, deluxe touring pkg, and tech pkg. Another example is the ATS. It starts at $34k. However, if you opt for a ATS 3.6 AWD with 19" rims, premium pkg, moonroof, cold weather pkg, driver assist pkg, then you are looking at $53k. Keep in mind that these are not even the top German brands.
I agree with your analysis of the 3G TL and 4G TL. The 3G TL came out as a really good performer at a good price. I think that's a combination of a job well done by Acura AND the fact that the overall competition was just less intense back then. At that time, it was really the 3 series, A4, and C Class. The IS was crap, and the CTS was new to the market (i.e. Cadillac learning the market). The G was new but great at that time as well. Within several years though, everyone got up to speed, and Acura no longer had that advantage.
I agree the looks of the production model is underwhelming. However I'm glad that it's not as ugly as the 2009 TL.
The tranny...yea it's too bad the DCT is only for the 2.4. But still the 9AT in the V6 still has the most ratios out there.
I think it's always been expected to be FWD based. The mighty 3G TL was FWD only and it was a huge success as you said. Besides, SH-AWD doesn't get the credit it deserves and is hugely underrated. Customers simply don't know the benefits of that system. If Acura were to just offer SH-AWD only on the TLX, people will think that's a waste of money and feel that the car must consumes a lot of fuel.
On paper, the TLX does not look the most impressive - sub 300hp, chassis from Accord, not the most attractive looking, etc. However, we haven't seen any actual road tests. How fast does it actually accelerate? How smooth and quiet is the ride? What's the handling like with the new SH-AWD? What is the pricing schedule with respect to the features? I think at this moment, it's hard to draw a conclusion on the car yet. I find it difficult to just say, there's no reason to buy the TLX, when there are just so many unanswered questions.
However, pretty much everything you described is basically a good car, which is a good replacement as the 4G TL in 2009 or 2010. (like many reviewers have already said)
But after all these failures of Acura Sedan, i guess it is common sense that you have to build a Great car with at least something that will make a strong selling point whether it is the engine, the look, interior or price ,a good car is just not enough to ask the customers that Acura have lost to come back.
Acura needs to give buyers a reason to ditch whatever they are driving to come back. I personally think exterior is the best way since most of the buyers are clueless about cars anyways. but TLX does not deliver that. The biggest problem Acura sedans are facing now is to make a comeback, which requires MORE than just trying to maintain.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-01-2014 at 01:32 PM.
The following users liked this post:
ttribe (05-01-2014)
05-01-2014, 01:58 PM
#8953
Moderator
This kind of hype is going to hurt, not help, Acura -
He's creating expectations the TLX can't meet, let alone exceed.
"In a few short months, we will unleash the all-new 2015 Acura TLX to reestablish Acura's reputation for thrilling luxury performance sedans and establish the Acura brand as a force to be reckoned with in the luxury segment."
- Mike Accavitti, Acura division senior vice president and general manager.
- Mike Accavitti, Acura division senior vice president and general manager.
05-01-2014, 02:16 PM
#8954
Some dude
05-01-2014, 02:24 PM
#8955
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
05-01-2014, 02:29 PM
#8956
Team Owner
I truly believe if Car talk @ Azine runs Acura division, Acura will be a lot more successful than what it is today.
Slogan - This is what we can do if we tried.
Slogan - This is what we can do if we tried.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 05-01-2014 at 02:32 PM.
05-01-2014, 02:32 PM
#8957
Moderator
All the great ideas in the world are worthless, though, if there's no money to put them into action. I suspect Honda Corporate has been starving Acura for years. I'm unclear on how the "spin-off" will impact such budgeting issues going forward.
05-01-2014, 02:32 PM
#8958
edit: when it comes to cars, I'd say pretty much anyone who's been in this thread going back and forth for the last dozen or so pages is an outlier.
Last edited by skd2k1; 05-01-2014 at 02:36 PM.
05-01-2014, 02:36 PM
#8959
Team Owner