dom

Yes, they're only paying for the brand. Keep telling yourself that.

RPhilMan1

You guys are entertaining.

It sounds a lot like this.

ttribe

Every time you say something like this you show how little you understand the market in which Acura is attempting to compete.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

come on dude, did I just say "they're only paying for the brand?" no, I didn't.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

you said yourself earlier that a bmw 328 fully loaded for $55k is a rip off.

ttribe

I did say that. Even more so, an X1 is a bigger ripoff. That being said, to dismiss all buyers of lux items (whether it's a car, a watch, a handbag, etc.) as "not very smart" because they are just trying to get their hands on a "cool brand name" demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the lux goods market.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I didn't do that though. sometimes a luxury item is a good value, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

I'll give an example. my wife and I were at the mall recently both looking to buy a new pair of sunglasses. my wife had her eye on a pair of burberry sunglasses that were around $200. I was looking at a pair of costa del mars for around the same price. the burberry's weren't polarized w/plastic lenses, while the costa's were polarized w/glass lenses. both brands I would consider to be 'luxury' sunglasses, but the costas were a better value. neither of us bought sunglasses at the mall, we'll buy them online.

ttribe

That's fine, but one-liner posts don't allow for much in the way of interpretation beyond what's on the screen.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

fair enough, but I think your interpretation of my comment was on the far end of the spectrum of potential interpretations. I'll try to expand further in the future.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

It is a rip off.

But the average buyers do NOT get the $55k fully loaded ones.

BMW has those available for people who are willing to pay that much. They can do that because some people do pay that much for BMW.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

no argument there, just like burberry can charge $200 for sunglasses with non-polarized, plastic lenses.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Yep, yep.

How come Acura doesn't let the magazines do any pre-launching reviews for TLX!?

I'm curious how it performs and drives.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Finally..........haha

This has been an issue for the past little while for Acura sedans. Unfortunately, Acura hasn't done much to fix this.

That's very true. Hence sales wise, based on the information available out there, I'm expecting 4000 units a month. Anything more would be a surprise to me. The pricing for the volume trims will be very important.

Acura will need to be patient. It's true that most people are clueless about cars. It's true that a lot of them will base their opinion on looks and specs. However, another factor that people look at is reputation. That's the part Acura need to be consistent and be patient with. For instance, when we talk about BMW, we quickly think of them as great performance sedans. Audi? They make elegant, classy cars. Lexus? They are very quiet and comfortable. Mercedes? It's all about prestige and comfort. Acura needs to find something positive and build a reputation out of it. It seems like they are now focusing on handling for the TLX. I just hope they will market that more, and consistently deliver products with great handling. Then eventually, people will have a reason to buy their cars, other than the value factor.

ttribe

That's Moog and Yummy.

phile

Acura: We Make Great CUVs.

Fibonacci

If I recall correctly we purchased our OG TSX's right around the same time. Was forced to compromise on the 5AT at the time because I was recently married, wifey couldn't drive a stick and we had single lane driveway at my bachelor shack. After upgrading to A-Spec suspension, Brembo brakes and a CAI - it was a fun car and I kept it for six years (longest I had kept the same car), but after coming from a Prelude, I was looking for a manual shifter again.

In my search for a replacement, it just didn't make sense for me to pay up for an S4 as I could basically get the same level of performance (albeit in not so sharp looking package) for a significant discount. That doesn't really make me a "die hard", it makes me a value shopper.

Case study II: wifey was looking to replace our 2G MDX and she had her heart set on an X5 or GL450. Honestly, I told her to get what she wanted but after looking at 10k premium for BMW or 30k more for equivalent features in Benz - she agreed with me, the MDX was an easy compromise and better value.

That in a nutshell speaks to the core of Acura's problem. They've been viewed as Honda plus for so long that they can't demand a premium because *shocker* luxury buyers don't shop based on cheapest price.

You called me a "tightwad" and it definitely rings true when it comes to spending my hard earned money on depreciating assets. Not sure if that will ever change and is the main reason why I haven't bought a fun car yet. It's hard to rationalize spending big money on a garage queen from Nov - March here in the MidWest.

And I haven't predetermined a TLX acquisition. I wouldn't put myself in the fanboy camp. But I still get satisfaction out of my "fucking beakmobile" and am not embarrassed to be seen in it.

Carry on.

Belzebutt

So I signed up here before I bought my 2004 TSX and it's still in my garage, then I got an A4 S-Line over 4 years ago. I'm looking around for a possible next cars some time down the road and here's what I'm finding:

When I get into other cars' interiors I really notice the details, where they cut corners. There's a lot of nice-looking cars out there that provide "value" but you don't get something for nothing, these cars are cheaper because they're missing something. In my segment (A4, 3-series etc.) Audi and BMW are usually at the top because they offer the best performance, style and interior quality compared to the rest. I've seen both my cars from underneath many times by now, and it's easy to tell how the German cars are not just pretty skins, they're actually designed with beefier parts. The quality isn't just skin deep. Hell, for all the electrical issues German cars have, the electrical system in the A4 is FAR ahead of what I see in the Acura. Everything is modular with solid connectors, the whole way the car is put together is just on another level. The Japanese are reliable but noticeably more basic, hence cheaper.

The interior of the Audi (at least with my S-Line package is also a class above. My favorite potential new car is the Lexus IS, and even though that car is brand new, I wouldn't consider an upgrade over my A4 which is almost at the end of its cycle. In the Lexus I see plastic trim where I have aluminum, and a noticeable lack of metal/chrome bits. It's not that the Audi has more bling, it just says "cheaper". Little touches, e.g. they don't use metal door sills for the passenger doors.

And that's Lexus, which at least has a true RWD platform. Acura to me feels slightly below Lexus, which feels below the Germans. I wouldn't pay as much for the IS as I would for the A4/S4, and I would pay even less for an Acura.

The Japanese are supposed to be the "value" option with the same features for less money, but even then they don't really give you the same features. Often when you get a tech feature on the Germans it's more advanced and better executed than on the Japanese counterpart. E.g. LED headlights, on the Audis they're expensive but as effective as Xenons, but on a Lexus the LEDs have shorter range and I wouldn't really consider them an upgrade (my dad has them on his Lexus). The Germans just don't seem to cut corners as much.

Acura just doesn't aim as high. And now that they seem to want to pack their car with tech features and make them equivalent tech-wise, they make a car with very little visual appeal. It's like they can't get the whole package right, the cars always compromised in some way. At least Lexus, with the latest IS, comes VERY close to being on par with the Germans. It's aggressive and has distinctive styling even if you're not looking at the polarizing grille, it has the RWD platform, it has a sleek interior with reasonable quality, you can get the tech features... For the TLX I can't help thinking it's STILL just a FWD family sedan dressed up with LEDs and with some tech bits bolted on. It's just not the same. So I wouldn't pay as much.

Curious3GTL

It think you can argue that's not the case anymore with BMW. Have you sat in the F30? I thought the interior was very cheaply done compared to the E90. Also I've read a lot of reviews saying how it's lost the driving feel that made the 3 series so famous. It almost seems like a step back to me.

Yet what do I know? BMW is selling a ton of them so clearly they're doing something right.

Fibonacci

"Beefier" parts which are still less reliable. And you still can't beat the lower total cost of ownership of a HondAcura product.

Unquestionably, IMO Audi builds some of the nicest interiors in the business, but its not worth it to me to spend 20k more for nicer "touches".


Can't speak to the Lexus LED headlights, all I can vouch for is that the jewel eye headlights in the 3G MDX are an improvement over the Xenon HID's in the 2G. They are brighter, have a wider/deeper throw pattern, and dare I say cooler looking.

Duh, Acura has a long way to go before their product is tier one and they can command tier one pricing. SH-AWD may have a goofy acronym, but is pretty impressive on the road. So no, the TLX SH-AWD is not just a dressed up Accord.

I stand by my assertion that real world pricing on the TLX SH-AWD 9AT TECH will probably settle in somewhere around $42k after about six to nine months of sales. And at that price, probably offers a good value relative to its class vs performance - but that remains to be seen as nobody has driven it yet despite already forming some strong opinions about it.

EhkoXC

I'm not sure they necessarily won't. It sounds like they're having the same programming issues with the ZF 9AT that everyone else who's using it has. I would guess once that gets sorted out they will do a pre-launch drive event, they did for the RLX Sport Hybrid.

MeehowsBRZ

5 months later and you STILL can't buy the SH-AWD RLX. Did they just decide to cancel that thing and not tell anyone?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Read it in Acura sales thread that like 60 SH-AWD RLXs are currently on the way to the States or something.

Brace yourself.

SH-AWD RLX is coming.

oonowindoo

I think my 335i is reasonably priced.

To me RWD + 6mt + 300HP +50/50 distribution is worth whatever more BMW is charging compare to TLX.

You can call it inflated price, i call it i pay more to get what i wanted.

oonowindoo

Yes but eventually reputation will change whether you want to maintain and improve or worsen it. Perfect example: Hyundai and domestics

We all know how Hyundai is 10, 20 years ago and their sales # reflected that reputation.

Now Hyundai sells almost just as many cars as Toyota and Honda.

Acura can only rely on their reputation for so long before it will forever be forgotten because all the competitions have caught up.

Legend2TL

Need to bring some reality into this, ~1/2 is not "almost just as many"

2013 US sales
Hyundai 720,783
Honda 1,359,876
Toyota 1,893,874

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/

AZuser

Fixed.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

2013 US Sales
Hyundai + Kia 1,255,962

Legend2TL

"Hyundai sells", not "Hyundai and Kia sells".

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

for me it would also depend on what you ultimately paid for it, and how much maintenance costs while you own it. I do think the 335 is a better value than a 328 and maybe better than an m3.

but you're right, it also depends on what you're wanting to get out of the car.

oonowindoo

F30 Interior is a major improvement over E90, while some people will disagree and vast majority of reviews and people agree.

Interior design was never a strong selling point in any generation of 3 series. Matter of fact, it is probably the worst among all competitors IMO.

I personally hate the suspension and steering feel of F30 when it was first launched but i understand why BMW did what they did.
For many years, luxury car buyers in Germany have complained about the harsh ride and almost non-power steering feel of BMW (Which I LOVE), so BMW is compromising.

That is also true in the US. Most (90%) of the 3 series buyers are not people like me or you. They prefer a more comfortable ride than the traditional BMW harshness but they were willing to buy BMW anyways because it is a BMW.

with that being said, all 2014+ 3/4 series software have been updated, which has improved the steering feel. The same software can be apply to 2012 and 2013.

I just updated the software a few months ago and the changes are dramatic. it is close to what BMW steering feels like before especially in Sport mode.

The market is changing for the better of the majority buyers, whether we like it or not.

Cars with V8, 6mt, mechanical feel, hydraulic steering and many other things we love will soon disappear and replaced by backup camera, MPG, comfortable ride and bigger Navi screen and facebook connectivity.

oonowindoo

i pay $0 maintenance, in addition, they even replace my windshield wiper, brake pads and rotors for free. So wear and tear items are included also, except for tires.

Maybe 335 is a better value but that is not the reason why i did not buy a M3. It is because i can't afford it!

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

you must be under warranty. wait a few years and those m3s will come down in price. easier to squeeze more power out of 335, that'll change with new m3/4 I think.

Legend2TL

It's all relative, as to what one values and appreciates. To me a F30 335i seems overpriced for what you get.
The contrast to me is a C7 which for a similar price is a amazing bargain for the performance and overall quality.
A Accord Sport 6MT is more appealing to me than either a ILX or at least on paper a TLX.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

yeah, I think even with the 335 there's still a cost associated with the roundel, but the bonus is that it's easy to get extra hp/tq. I like the c7 and agree it's a good value (so is the new z28!) but I don't know if I'd consider the two as being in the same category. on that note, will be interesting to see how the c7 zo6 responds to the z28's performance.

I really like the look of the current accords, but I think I like the tlx better. not a huge ilx fan.

Belzebutt

No but it's a more premium product. The reliability is probably not as good, but after years of ownership I'm finding out that Japanese cars rust much sooner than German cars for example (you can tell the difference up North). On the other hand my Audi still drives like a new car, I don't remember the Acura having the same "like new" feel when it was the same age. German cars seem to hold their desirability longer.

Come on, for 20k more you don't just get "nicer touches". If you're comparing and Acura and an Audi that are 20k apart you get way more stuff in the Audi. I'd say the "nicer touches" account for maybe 5k extra, tops. And for some people that's worth it, having a car that you love 100% vs. settling for one.

Yeah I expect all LED lights to become more effective as they mature. But the Germans will always be on the cutting edge with fancier tricks and they'll charge more as a result. They'll have laser lights soon now that even Kia has LEDs.

Sure, we're not talking massive differences between the cars. Still, Acura fhas to work with a FWD platform with a trick AWD system designed to make up for the car's fundamental deficiencies. Some of that simply can't be fixed with technology, like the long front overhands. The more premium cars are built on a better platform in the first place and that makes them more fun.

Belzebutt

I've sat in several, and some of them have shocked me with their cheapness while others have surprised me how nice they were. It all seems to depend on which package you get. Base BMWs seem to have cheap looking trim and cheap leatherette which looks especially aweful when it's dirty.

But I also drove my buddy's 328 xDrive which had nice red leather, great quality plastics and real brushed aluminum trim, all adding up to an interior which I thought was on par with Audi. Granted they're not all like that. The BMW multimedia system also seems to have the nicest graphics in the business right now, I was so impressed going through the menus. It makes the Lexus one look like 8bit crap. Nothing they couldn't fix with a little graphic design, but still BMW went all the way and the Japanese didn't.

I have to give credit for the F-sport gauge cluster though, I drove an IS with this and it's awesome.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's pretty much what I meant when I said ,

MuGen7Modulo

Most aerodynamic headlights in its class!

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Belzebutt

A couple more things I thought of to justify the price difference:

On the Audis (don't know about BMWs) there's a crap load of stuff that can be customized by plugging your laptop with a special cable (VAG-COM) that's common across all VW/Audi products. If you're an amateur like me you can use it to weak things like the behavior of the remote keyless entry (e.g. holding the FOB closes the window, the roof, or both etc.), the behaviour of the LED DRL lights, you can enable needle sweep at startup, disable seat belt chime, little things like that. If you're a serious enthusiast you can use this diagnose and control lots of stuff on the car beyond what OBD2 gives you. People have used it to customize the LED tail light patterns on the A4/S4 and to allow them to be retrofitted with LED lights that were only available on European cars. The more advanced electronics system results in situations like the following: when my rear driver side brake bulb went out on the Audi, I got a message on the dash saying "rear driver side bulb needs replacing". On the Acura, when two of my brake bulbs went out, I had to wait until someone told me "dude, you know your brake bulbs are out?"

You pay for stuff like that, and it's more stuff to break, but it's more premium. Premium doesn't mean "more reliable", it means you get more and you pay more. And don't get me wrong, you do pay more when servicing the car.

Also, I find that the Audi enthusiasts seem more serious than the Acura ones. On AudiZine there seems to be quite a bit more talk about customizing the car and DIY than here, subjectively. People get more expensive stuff on their car. And because it's an Audi there's a more quality stuff available. When I put stainless steel pedals on my car, they were the same ones as on the RS6 Avant. They match the rest of the car quality-wise. What kind of stainless steel pedals would be availble for a TSX, and would they look out of place? The only metal bit in the whole cabin? Can I swap my window switches for chrome-lined ones like on the new A4/A6/A7, which I swapped on my car? If I really want to blow my budget can I put in a steering wheel that's basically the same one as on an R8/RS7 (available of course with an S-Line logo so I don't look like a poser)? Or I could just buy metal paddle-shifters for $50 like these:
http://www.osirusa.com/mm5/merchant....gory_Code=TTM2

This is great if you love the car and are willing to spend money on it. If you want to save a few grand and get a car that will probably have less stuff to break and will be almost as good, well, maybe a TLX is a good choice.