skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I see the same thing: less chrome, no fancy mirrors and a substantial wheel gap. not the end of the world.

Moog-Type-S

Wait....your wife brings home all the baconz too?

Moog-Type-S

This post brought to you by: The Year: 2005.

Thank you.

Fibonacci

Let's take one for a spin first and see where they price this puppy first. As long as they don't overreach like they did on RLX pricing, on paper this thing looks respectable.

I'm thinking real world pricing on a V6 9AT TECH at 42k is a value.

Still holding out hope for a 6MT, but sadly don't think its gonna happen. Depending on where the 6MT Golf R and 6MT Audi S3 get priced, they might just steal me as new customer.

charliemike

Let's see what happens when the Regal and MKZ continue to outsell the TLX, Mr. Wizard.

Moog-Type-S

krautzine: Get out of here Fibbi!
Fibbi: What are y'all doing in here?
krautzine: It's called German Engineering. And you don't want no part of this shit!
Fibbi: German Engineering?
[krautzine nods and smiles]
Fibbi: What's it do?
Sam: It turns all your bad feelings into good feelings. It's a nightmare!
Fibbi: I'm thinking maybe I'd like to try me some of that German Engineering.


Avoid krautzine, Dewey!

Fibonacci

Well at least you're no longer comparing sales to a TL reaching the end of production. Now we're making progress Chuck!

oonowindoo

So you are comparing engines with Lexus and reliability with Germans. Why don't you compare engines with Germans and reliability with Lexus?

Fibonacci

I bought a 6MT, for all the right reasons...

H_CAR

The styling is conservative (What did you expect, look at the 4G TL), but the rest of the car looks like a winner.

If it's priced well, it should have no issues outselling the IS and Q50.

Whiskers

Yeah, maybe a 3 series BMW.

oonowindoo

Lexus sold close to 5000 units of IS last month and the car came out almost a year ago.

Q50 is selling next to G37 so technically Infiniti killed its own sales # for Q50.

Legend2TL

Sorry most if not all know how you work and if you think your mojo that it's all doom and gloom at H/A works then fine, the rest of us get you.

I was pointing out the obvious that Acura was heading in the right direction in mid-2000's, screwed up sedans a few years later.


They're trying to recover after several misguided attempts, ILX and RLX are not doing it however the TLX is a positive step from a styling point of view. Will it hit it's 45K/yr target, perhaps but time will tell.

falaniz

I like the body lines and wheel proportions on the TLX over its competitors. Looks much better when you view them side by side!

Legend2TL

Low end motor is close
2.4 210HP
320i 180HP
C250 201HP
A4 220HP

High end motor is close
3.5 290HP
335i 300HP
C350 302HP
Audi?

Moog-Type-S

Nope, this ignores a good chunk of my posts about the upside of Acura, and how they can get better, but you ignore that.

Acura began it's slide in the mid 2000's. It's when they began to lose their way. It really set them up for the troubles they have on hand now. You could see that they did not have very good direction for their product.

Killing a "premium" coupe"
Not knowing what to do for an entry model, then killing the RSX/Integra
A very old outdated RL, just sat there.
RDX with turbo 4?!?!?
Bringing up the Accord (TSX) as the entry model....only helped to push the narrative of Honda +.

...but at least they had the MDX and 3G TL.



You are one of the few that think the TLX is "positive" step.
It's not a positive step, nor is it a negative step like the TL 4G.


It's like I said, they needed a home run, and they got a bit over a single.....could have been worse, and gone down looking on a strike 3 call.


I'm with Ken, see Acura in +5 YEARS if they ever do turn it around.

Let's hope this TLX is the last product from the old guard.

oonowindoo

Audi has S4 which competes with 335i and have beaten 335i in pretty much every review.

if we are only talking about horsepower #s. Camry has 270, base model Dodge charger has 290+hp.

#s are all close but real world performance is not. Benz is coming out with C400 later on this year, so C350 will not matter anymore.

most if not all of TLX low end and high end competitors are using FI with better performance and better real world efficiency with power that you can actually feel.

Yes TLX 4 banger with DCT might be able to achieve the same 0-60 as A4. but what about 20-100mph? you will have to revive the shit out of that car and flicking your fingers at lightning speed to get some reasonable acceleration. In order word, the car will feel slow in every day driving.

Acura can't expect to steal many customers when their car feel significantly slower during test drive from its competitors. "oh you have to rev higher to feel it" does not work well for this type of car. It is not a s2000 where people actually appreciate the torque less acceleration.

Moog-Type-S

Torque #'s tells a different story:
Low end motor...not so much
2.4 182 lb-ft
320i 200 lb-ft
C250 229 lb-ft
A4 258 lb-ft

High end motor is close...against some....not so much against others
3.5 267 lb-ft
335i 300 lb-ft
C350 273 lb-ft
Audi?

oonowindoo

if you put the RPM along with the torque #, then it will actually tell the story.

182lbs and 267lbs of torque at 5000-6000 RPM does not mean much.

but at least Acura has the balls to put DCT and 9at in their cars now. I give them that. But i really hope they are not made of glass.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I don't think you really need to flip your fingers lightning fast in the 2.4 TLX...there's an automatic mode.....

Actually, I think a 20-100mph race would benefit the NA TLX more. For instance, the A4 2.0T can reach 0-60mph in 6.4s, but takes 7.2s to to 5-60mph. In another test, it does 0-60mph in 6.3s, and 5-60mph in 7.8s. In a third test, 0-60mph in 5.7s, 5-60mph in 7.2s.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...trumented-test
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

In all of these tests, the 0-60mph (~6s) is way faster than the 5-60mph (~7.5s).

Now let's look at a car with NA engine with 5AT, the TSX V6. 0-60mph in 6.1s, 5-60mph in 6.3s.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

You will find similar results if you compare other cars too. Even though Audi and BMW make really good turbocharged engines, they still suffer from a small degree of turbo lag. That shows up in the 5-60mph run big time. It takes a bit of time for the boost to build up. Once the boost is up, then yea, these engines make big torque. This is not a dig to those cars, don't get me wrong, but it's the fact.

Another way to look at it is that, because of the immense amount of torque available at low rpm and max boost, you can really get a good start if you do brake torquing in a turbocharged car, especially one with AWD.

Anyway, I guess we will find out how the TLX will perform soon enough.

Moog-Type-S

True.

Huge difference not only in torque numbers, but where that torque is in the power band.

qingcong

Nobody outside of Acura knows anything about the real world performance of the TLX, so you can't really say anything about the TLX's real world performance. Honda generally underspecs their cars. Real world HP and MPGs are typically higher than spec in a Honda, as they are with the Accord's new earth dreams 2.4L engine from which the TLX's engine is likely based off.


I don't think this claim can be substantiated. There is not one type of customer in this class. Those of us who grew up on GS-Rs, Type Rs, Type S, Si and look to move on to a higher class car as we're older may appreciate the high revving 2.4L.

The high torque turbo engines are fine, but Honda is historically good at the high revving stuff, so I don't see a problem with them sticking to what they do well. These engines are competitive in their class, and I appreciate the reliability of a N/A setup.

ttribe

I hate to break this to you, but the market indicators seem to tell the story that such a group of customers is quickly diminishing. That's not a good thing if you are a business.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Now we are magazine racing 5-60? Oh jeez.

And if you are going to magazine race, find the fastest time for both cars. You always pick the slowest time of the car that you want it to lose.

SSFTSX

better real world efficiency?. MDX gets 23mpg avg on 744 mile trip with no cruise control and two hrs in traffic.

328Xi gets 29mpg with 8speed auto on 2100 mile.( Despite MDX being 25% heavier and much wider/taller vehicles with heavier wheels)
the longer the trip the greater is fuel economic advantage.




MDX with 6speed Auto
8speed auto 328XI.



Even Honda Accord V6 with summer performance tires will smoke 335. Accord V6 with all season tires and 6 speed auto has same timing to 0-120mph as 335 with 8speed auto.


TLX has 9 speed Auto with 15% aerodynamic improvement over TL and lighter. It is generation apart in advancement.
Honda technology is for real world. BMW is for paper specifications like use of summer tires or extra wide setup. All BMW got bald tires and deform alignment on long term tests.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

So, I'm assuming BMW would need to come out with 13 speed automatic transmission to smoke Accord?

Am I understanding your post alright?

qingcong

You have market indicators on whether the general population wants to get hp out of a high revving engine or a high torque engine?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

is it still not the J-series engine?
duh, it will be sorta high revving, with peak torque at 5k all the way to redline.

AZuser

4G TL and 2G IS sales have been on par, therefore the TLX not beating (2009-2012) 2G IS or 4G TL sales would be a disappointment since it's being touted as a big improvement over the outgoing model.

. . . . . 4G TL vs 2G IS
2009: 33,620 vs 38,077
2010: 34,049 vs 34,129
2011: 31,237 vs 29,669
2012: 33,572 vs 27,708
_______________________
Totals: 132,478 vs 129,583


But will the TLX have any issues outselling the 3G TL (60K-80K a year) or 2G TL (60k+ a year) or even initial 2G IS sales (2006 = 54,267 ; 2007 = 54,933 ; 2008 = 49,432)?

But if reports of Acura targeting a sales goal of 45,000 a year are true, then maybe not.

Hopefully they won't have to revise that 45,000 target down like they did with the ILX from 40K to 30K. (waiting for the revised sales goal of 20K)

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

Not gonna happen, there is way more competition out there (comparatively), and a lot of these cars have very similar features. Whereas in '04 - '08 Acura jammed their cars with a lot of tech/features that you couldn't necessarily find in a lot of cars at the time.

Legend2TL

Please link those posts for the rest of us.

• In 2005 Acura had it's peak sales of ~231K
• The TL peaked in 2005 (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html) at 79K
• The RL peaked in 2005 (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html) at 18K
• The TSX peaked in 2006 (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html) at 38K
• So by the mid 2000's Acura had a good sedan family that accounted for 58% of it's sales.
• The MDX peaked in 2004 (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html) at 60K.
• CL, not a great seller at only 12K in 2002 and going down from there (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/06...sa-canada.html). So maybe the nostalgic may love it but it was not selling well.
• Not as bad for the RSX at 30K sales in 2002 (http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/06...sa-canada.html) but that to me seemed like a strategic decission to get away from the low-end sport coupe which perhaps didn't line up with Acura's long term intentions.
• So what happened? Simple, planning of future sedans and poor style didn't work out. The 4G TL, ILX, and RLX have not met their goals. I wonder if it coincided with Charlie Baker leaving Honda for GM, but it's probably alot of factors.
• As to a few, I don't know quite a few have expressed optimism. It's a move in the positive direction.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

According to the press releases, both the I4 and V6 make peak torque at 4500 rpm. Guessing from the dyno runs of the Accord Sport that the I4 engine should make about 90% of that number from about 2200-5800 rpm and start to trail off after that. More or less the same with a bit lower start for the V6.

Peak horsepower is basically right at or around redline.

Legend2TL

S4 is not a A4.

As for the other, let's stay on topic as you asked about the German power. But you also showed how the HP debate is also pointless as relatively cheap HP can be abound in different vehicles. Are they in the same vehicle class here is the question? Someone buying a mid-2000's S500 probably couldn't care less if a Mustang GT at that time also had a ~300HP V8.

As for real world performance how often do people do 20-100? Flicking fingers? I would bet a year's salary the DCT has a auto mode and probably a sport mode that will allow redline shifting.

As for the actual performance, in a couple months I guess Edmunds will have a early review for some numbers.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

S4 is the direct competitor of higher trim in that category.

Legend2TL

Could be me, but I thought the S4's were much more than engine changes and trim configuration. Is it on par with M3 type with chassis changes?

BTW, what happened to the V6 in the A4's?

AZuser

RS4 would be more on par with an M3.

S4 is on par with a 335

Legend2TL

I thought the market segment positioning got off between Audi and BMW

335i < S4 < M3 < RS4 < M3 CSL

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

No.

335 vs S4
M3 vs RS4

It's been like this for awhile.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Audi got rid of A4 V6 and demoted S4 to compete with 335.

Sarlacc

Just really not impressed. Everyone around them is just blowing their doors off at this point.

Its not bad or hideous...but its not inspiring either. Its just meh.