dom

And 306 just matches the competition. It would have been nice to trump them in one area. Lets hope its false.

Yumcha

Blarg. Well, I suppose one area the RL will do well in (or I have faith in) is keep up or do better in the interior department...

I really enjoy where Acura's going with their interiors...

fsttyms1

If thats true thats a let down.

JediMindTricks

well, they're gonna have to keep up with the CTS interior-wise too.

dom

I love the interior of my TSX. And maybe its an 04 thing, but I've been in 100 year old houses that creaked and rattled less.

neuronbob

I made an error a few posts back. I meant the DI CTS, not the CTS-V. I obviously have CTS-V on the brain. Who wouldn't, with 550 hp/550 torque?

I know that the CTS is "entry luxury" and the RL is "mid-luxury", but "entry luxury" amenities are not what they were when the RL was released in 2004. The CTS is a match to the RL as it currently stands. Hopefully, the interior features in the new RL will beat out everything else in the mid-lux class.

Yumcha

^ Granted...but, how about performance? The RL is a 5-series "fighter" no...?

JediMindTricks

+1. after sitting in what seemed like 100 cars at the auto show, when i got back into my TSX, it didn't look outdated at all.

sure there were some interiors that blew it away: CTS, S5, etc. but the interior is still gorgeous, in my opinion.

(and i've been driving a rental RAV4 for the past 3 weeks so i've learned to really appreciate the TSX's interior too.)

JediMindTricks

(in theory)

neuronbob

Indeed it is a 5-series fighter. But without an RWD option, that fight is already lost. Acura is becoming a Japanese Audi (nothing wrong with that!) and for some reason, they feel they can beat BMW. Its most direct competition is the 535xi, whatever Audi is in that range, Infiniti M35x, and Lexus GS330.

Frankly, Acura should just embrace that it is different, advertise the hell out of that difference (they sure don't now), and move on, forgetting BMW at least in the RL's class. The types who buy BMW already don't give Acura a first look, let alone a second.

TSX69

306 HP would not surprise me @ all as this is just a refresh. Altho the RL needs it, I am not expecting anything too major or revolutionary. Kind of like the TL Type-S: they did what they could @ the time; it really should have been over 300 hp w/ RWD/SH-AWD but it just was not meant to be ... @ least until the complete body style change.

Also, my 2004 TSX had the initial rattles that people complained about but 1 trip to the dealer took care of that.

Moog-Type-S

Another shocking let down from Honda/Acura.

Prove us all wrong Honda.

CarbonGray Earl

How long did the original RL sit at 225 hp while the new 2nd gen TL matched and the blew it out with the 260 hp TL-S?

I think 3.5L 306 hp is spot on as well. The TL is going to get that PLUS a 3.7L Type-S SH-AWD because the TL is a known seller.

Where I hope they do "advance" is in the area of transmissions. Doubtful, but still, the 5at could benefit from another ratio in the lower gears.

vishnus11

Wisest man here yet.......

What the car really needs is not more horsepower, but an extra gear or two, to make the max of the powerband.

A 3.7 making 306hp bolted to a 6sp auto...that should make for a quick car. Acura HAS to have a 6spd or maybe even a 7spd auto waiting in the wings....with the new TL's launch imminent, and all the TL's competitors (except the G) having 6spd autos....

I only hope that the stick this tranny in this refreshed RL and then market the helll out of the car.

Ken1997TL

The RL had torque though. But you're right, it DID need at least a 5 speed auto transmission. It chugs along at freeway speeds at nearly 3000 rpms and could easily be geared down, improving the MPG by 4 or 5.

phile

what's wrong with 306? Honda isn't a miracle worker. Do any of the other 3.5L V6s make more power? Cause it seems like 300-310 is the most hp anyone can squeeze out of this size engine while offering driveable torque, balance and harshness.

neuronbob

This is an excellent point! Even the current engine with a 6AT would be awesome to improve low-end rpm response.

Since modding the tranny is not an ideal approach for us end users, an alternative approach is to add power, which I did with CAI and exhaust. My engine mods added 14 whp. We calculated 35% SH-AWD drivetrain loss, so the power increase adds up to about 40 hp at the flywheel (and yes, I know that it's difficult to approximate flywheel hp). So I would say I've got 330 hp.

unlemming

It's not like the previous RL was a recipe for success either...I hope it gets the 3.7 but I'm happiest about the ventilated seat thing.

cob3683

Should be in the 330hp-345hp range. Given the competition, anything less is not enough

gavriil

I am guessing 325HP

gavriil

This car is begging for turbocharging. Instead of upping the V6's displacement Honda should have lowered it to 3 liters and added two turbos like BMW did. And make 330 pounds feet of torque and 330 horses. That would be great for this AWD sedan.

vishnus11

Gotta be realistic Gavril...

1. J series motors weren't designed at the outset to be turbocharged.

2. The J series is probably near the end of its lifecycle having first been introduced 11 years ago. Developing a turbocharger for a motor that may not see another 5 years of life, is a colossal waste.

3. More oomph doesn't necessarily have to come from more power. More gears would accomplish the same result and is a far more cost effective solution. A 6 or 7spd auto tranny in this car would give it much needed help, and this tranny could be implemented across the board. A dual-dry clutch system would also be more efficient than a 5sp auto with torque converter, further improving performance and fuel economy. Acura/Honda is a company in search of better fuel economy as well as performance, and more gear ratios allows that.

Just my

SiGGy

You're telling Gavrill to be realistic?

A small bump in HP and a 7 speed transmission. You think that alone will sell the RL? That in no way makes the RL more desirable...

RL needs what the 1st post in this thread from 2006 said. A high powered engine and to look like a luxury vehicle not a worked over Accord. The entire reason it didn't sell is because it's god awful boring and underpowered.

Acura hasn't acted like a luxury brand in years; now it's lost, it's a step in between. So I'd expect another lame v6 with SH-AWD and hopefully a huge body refresh.

If Acura wants to be taken seriously they need to make the RL powerful and NOT boring...

We live in America; home of "quantity over quality" and "brand snobs". The VW phaeton is a perfect example of this. They pulled the car out of the American markets; it sells successfully everywhere else.

Have you honestly thought this through?

A 306hp $50k car? 1st match that comes to mind is the IS350 (which can be had cheaper). The IS350 is now the little brother to the new IS500 (not sure on the name). Acura's flagship will be viewed as equal to Lexus's baby luxury car...

The new TL will be near 300hp; lots of other cars are near 300hp for $30k.

Not even a CVT transmission optimizing use of the engines power better than a 7 speed would take 306hp and make it perform like a 340+hp V8 with lots of torque...

It's ideology like yours that made the current RL a failure... you really don't understand who buys $50k+ cars or what they want.

Your end result is the same whore with new lipstick on... people won't buy it.

Hopefully Acura gets the looks right this time; it's the only thing that will save them... Everyone knows it'll have a V6 with not a lot of HP; Acura is always consistently conservative so I wouldn't expect a high HP engine.

fsttyms1

And i agree^^

derrick

Yeah ... I agree. When it comes to the $50k+ market, >50% of the decision making will be appearance. The car has to "look" like it's worth that kind of money. Not many people will appreciate people asking "What's that?" just after they dropped that kinda dough, unless it's a "Wow! What sexy beast are you driving there?!" response.

After someone is passionate about the appearance, then you have to bring the other goods (big motor, great performance, and a lot of bells & whistles) to close the sale.

Acura gained its image early when it brought all these things to the table and a reasonable price tag. When they added reliability to its offering, the Germans had to change their game (somewhat). Acura got its street cred. Now all that image-building got lost along the way. The bigwigs in Japan have to figure out how to undo all their unwise decision making the past 10 years after doing away with the "Legend" marque and the greatness with those cars.

SiGGy

Current RL and TL interior look fantastic in my book.

Acura needs to work on their quality issues though. TLs tend to rattle; dashboards fade and leather wears quickly...

Crazy Bimmer

I dont really agree that the RL needs a lot of power. In its segment is fairly priced compared to other cars in its size.

528xi - 230hp/200tq
A6 - 255hp/243tq
GS - 303hp/274tq
E350 - 268hp/258tq

Most of those cars sell really well even with the power figures. So i wouldnt really blame that on the RL sales. Is kinda sad that Acura's Flagship rivals those though.

The RL's quality is far better than anything else in their lineup. Its worth the price premium over a TL. IMO

Personally I think sales suck because of how bland looking it is. Hopefully it seems that Acura has been listening and the new RL will be more appealing.

mrdeeno

When you say most of these cars "sell really well", are you talking about ONLY the AWD portion of these competitors? I think the AWD models of the RL's competitors undersell the RWD models, making the AWD portion of their sales very limited. So the RL competing in a small part of a much larger market (mid-luxury sedans) is already a recipe for disaster. The A6 does not sell well either, and has been competing with Acura for least sales every month (maybe a correlation in being available ONLY in AWD?)

and i agree the RL doesnt' need any more power. it needs an OPTION for more power, especially if it insists on making a parasitic AWD system standard.

Crazy Bimmer

I was only talking about the AWD portion and by saying "sells really well" i mean they sell well compared to the RL.

You are correct though, the awd layouts sell much less than the rwd portion.

Crazy Bimmer

I dont understand the argument for an option for more power. Acuras lineup has no options for more power and they sell just fine. (TSX, TL and MDX)

Granted the Type-S for the TL just came out with an option of more power but has that helped TL sales, not by much.

vishnus11

If only you could read....

Gavril said that he wishes they turbocharge the car ala 335i. While that would be fantastic, it would not be practical ESPECIALLY during a midlife MMC. What WOULD be practical would be installing a 6 or 7spd automatic (that I'm sure the company already has ready) and take advantage of their peakier powerband.

As for the rest of your essay - you think much more power is the solution. I don't - a modest bump in power would be nice but theres no need for a huge V8 with a stonking 500hp. I do agree that more aggressive italianate styling like the RL would definetely help the car.

More power...yep that will fix everything I'm glad folks like you don't run car companies.

vishnus11

The car never did well in this class in its first generation. The second gen should have followed in the TLs footsteps and been a knockout in terms of daring styling.

Bland styling and poor, poor marketing....

Python2121

The RL doesn't really need a v8, outside of the US S classes sell all the time with 6 cylinder engines. For some reason that isn't even an option but the 6 cyl should at least have been a little more substantial (or what I had hoped for, Hybrid only). This car was asking for awd hybrid action from the get go to give it some identity in the market (a luxury, larger safe hybrid), they dropped the ball, no surprise it doesn't sell.

biker

The standard fare around here is the S350 with plenty of S280s even. Power alone will not fix RL's woes. The blandness has to go - simple as that.

mrdeeno

The Acura lineup has no problem with the rest of its cars becasue the rest of its cars have power that's competitive with what is available from the competition. THe RL does not...it tops out at at a V6 with less than 300hp, while ALL its competitors in its class offers the OPTION of more power.

How do you think you will compete well in a segment when you don't bring all the necessary gear?

mrdeeno

Who said that more power will fix everything? That will fix one aspect of why the RL is selling poorly...all its competitors offer consumers a choice of more power, as well as a "halo" effect of offering more power than one needs in a segment that is defined by what people want, not what they need.

and I bet Acura is glad we aren't running their company because they are doing such a great job with the RL.

fsttyms1

Thats all fine and dandy, but they dont have models to compete with the higher up models. Thats what they need to add to their stable as well. The need something to be able to compete with not only the likes of the 528xi, but something to compete with the 535, 550 etc.. Acura just need OPTIONS for its buyers to help them choose better of what they want/need. (that and better styling, and a larger more distinguishable car to help set them apart

biker

The GS sells just fine for Lexus yet it only has the V8\hybrid option and those hardly sell and is not what brings the people to buy a GS. An RL with a V8 option would do nothing for the overall sales. The all or nothing approach to options hurts more than the lack of a V8. And the styling hurts the most. When is the unveiling?

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I agree with everyone saying 306 is plenty. If you actually look up the numbers it would give it the highest V6 in its class. I mean hell look at BMW they until the 335i they where never about big HP and they sold tons of cars. We all know Acura needs a V8 if it wants a to have that perfect image but would a V8 help there sales? Not by much look at how well the GS sells and then look at how many of those are V8s. They still need one of image but I dont think its going to do much for sales.

I think the RL did so poorly because of AWD. People in Florida see AWD and think "hm more upfront cost, more gas, and more maintance, I think I will pass." Well the probably is they cant. From what I understand SHawd is good but it just shouldnt be standard.

Another thing worth mentioning is there position in the chicago auto show. Normally they are right next to honda but this time not only are they right at the entrance according to the map but they are right next to MB and Audi. Hopefully that means they have cars that are good enough to compete.

mrdeeno

I disagree. Regardless of how few V8 models are sold, I think a V8 is the "halo" that gets the model the attention it needs in the midluxury segment, which in turn brings the car into people's minds when they are start shopping in the midsize luxury market. Most will likely end up buying 6-cylinder versions, but the point of a V8 isn't to sell V8 models, it's to sell more 6-cyl. models.

A V8 alone isn't recipe for success. More aggressive styling alone, or adding more options alone, or more marketing alone, or more value alone, aren't recipes for success either. They have to do all of the above and address all the criticisms of the car to really break out of their rut.