dozorca

The RL looks good from the front but the car has too be clean. As soon as you get some dirt on the car, it looks nothing more then an accord.

The last gen RL was long, wide and looked like a lexus LS. The problem was the look was a bit outdated and the car was wayyy underpowered.

What does RL compete with? Nobody is going to cross-shop RL with BMW 5 series. And nobody is going to cross-shop the RL with 7 series or Lexus LS.

I like Honda/Acura, but you can't make every car in your lineup "sporty" looking. A flagship sedan needs to look big, comfortable and rich. That's why Lexus has been so successful, beating everything it its class with the LS430.

charliemike

I'd buy an RL ... I really like Acura's interiors and the SH-AWD ... Yes a car needs to be attractive but I only see the outside for about 10 minutes a day

I buy on interior and driving dynamics now. I stop buying hot looking cars that are POS.

TSX69

I think that it competes w/ the 6 cylinder/4 wheel drive versions of the Lexus G & Infiniti M

titan

The RL competes with the 5 Series. In addition to the V6 versions of the A6/M/STS/GS. It's Acura's flagship by default, but it doesn't compete against the large V8 only lux flags of the other makers, like the LS/S/7/A8/Q.

titan

Well, let's just agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with platform sharing. Look at Infinit's FM (Nissan Z,G,Gcoupe,FX,advanced version for M), or the Camry's (Camry,Highlander,ES330,Sienna). The difference is that they a much better job of making different product off of the same platform. That's where Ford has failed ... consumers will look at the triplets and see rebranding. I think Ford should have waited to give the Zephyr the "good" powerplant and AWD at introduction; to justify it's price over it's siblings. We do agree with the nose, though. I like it too.

dozorca

I'm know what it 'supposed' to compete with, but which cars does it REALLY compete with. Although the RL is a great car in my books, people just don't look at the RL when shopping for a 5 series or the E-class.

On a side note, I haven't seen an RL commecial on TV for at least 8 months...

heyitsme

Sure the RL is a little understated looking, but I think why the sales don't stack up against other brands is because Acura only has one model without options -v6 awd, not because of lack of v8 or even really image.

Most of 5-series, Gs-series, M-series, E-class sales go to the base rwd model. Then the other variations( wagons, awd, rwd, 525i, 530i, 550i) kick in their share of sales equaling something Acura can't match with one model priced at msrp 50k.

DownUnder

I think the RL would do much better if they offered more choices. Particularly a RWD version that would at least cut $4K off the MSRP, would get better MPG, and could be quicker. And could make some standard options, optional such as nav, xenons, rear sunshade, etc. I know some people that like to have just what they want, instead of a fully loaded car with things they don't need and pay extra for it.

chungkopi

looks more like a 40k car.

F23A4

Is anyone aware of Honda's sales target versus actual sales numbers on the RL? (serious question) I know that Acura sold a little over 16,000 RLs through November 2005 (YTD) so, I'm wondering if they fell short, met or exceeded their sales expectations thus far.

F23A4

Throw on some xenons, Bluetooth and a power sunroof on the Accord Hybrid and I'd be hard pressed to justify the RL's $20k premium over it.

charliemike

Dude, the Accord interior sucks ... It's crap material IMO

M TYPE X

But I concur that the new RL in photos looks like a fancy-dancy Accord.
It's a very nice car in reality, but if you park it next to an Accord, you get the idea that they are close cousins. The TSX and TL don't bother me, but the RL really does look like a V6 Accord.

At $50K, the RL is priced too high. It's got 300 hp and AWD, and a lot of good features. It would be competitive at ~$42K.

cusdaddy

While the Accord interior pales in comparison to the RL, it is a very nice interior for what it is. It is far from crap and the material quality is class leading in the segment. If you want to talk about crap interior materials, I'll take you for a ride in my 350Z

03TL-S

I think their goal was to sell 20k a year

SiGGy

This topic is exactly why I brought up "IS350 vs RL" in cartalk.

JediMindTricks

i agree. i test drove an rl once and i admit, it's a fantastic car and the interior is beautiful. i wish i had the kind of money to buy a car like this.

but while looks are subjective, the car doesn't look like a $50,000 car that is to compete with the 5's/S's/M's/GS's/a6's...

and i dunno if it's just me, but the standard 17" rims look a little bland. especially considering the aggressive ones on the m45 and gs430.

TSX69

http://money.cnn.com/popups/2005/aut...n.exclude.html

Acura RL
Overall score: 25
Details and more photos

On paper, the Acura RL looks like it should do well: It has more standard features than any car in this test, and Acura is known for building sporty, solid, near-luxury cars. But in this exclusive class, that Acura formula is less convincing.

First, the good stuff. The RL doesn't offer a V-8, but its 290-horsepower V-6 is the strongest six in the field. It's got a slick all-wheel-drive system that helps the car scoot around corners, fine steering and an excellent navigation system. The new optional Collision Mitigation Braking System actually brakes the car when it senses that you're not slowing down quickly enough to avoid an accident.

So what's the problem? Value. Another Acura, the TL, gives you nearly as much car for $15,000 less. There's no avoiding the comparison: The RL and TL are both built on the Honda Accord platform. The RL is a bit shorter, it's 430 pounds heavier, and it feels no roomier inside. The RL does add AWD, more features and 32 extra horsepower, but it lacks those luxury intangibles that would justify its price tag. The top finishers here reassure you that you're driving something special, yet the RL makes you feel like you're driving, well, a really nice Honda.

As the final indignity, the TL is the better looking car. The tentatively styled RL could be mistaken for a next-generation Accord-not good for a sedan with upper crust aspirations.

F23A4

^^^ Bottomline!! AND, it would leave plenty of breathing room for a slightly upclass V8 powered RL to compete with the M45 & GS430.

gavriil

I think the major reasons the RL is not selling well are:

1. Exterior Looks
2. Interior space especially in the back
3. Power to weight ratio

In that order. Everything else is secondary.

cusdaddy

I was thinking the EXACT same thing at the Detroit auto show. We drove to Detroit in my friend's then new 2005 TL 6-speed with Navi. We sat in the RL at the car show and I could not understand why anyone would pay $15k more for a RL. Yes, the AWD is nice but not fully necessary. The interior of the RL was a bit nicer but the TL has a excellent interior as well. The TL was larger with more exciting styling outside.

gavriil

But that's what the price it's actually selling is at. $42K or in some cases even lower.

heyitsme

Thats not the price people know from visiting the Acura.com web page.

invincible569

When I first saw the new RL, I wasnt too thrilled. Looks has a lot to do with it. But it has grown on me since I now own an Acura. When I see one, it doesnt strike me as a luxury car. But ever since I educated myself about it and learned more about it, I do like it. I guess its one of those things where first impressions are everything.

charliemike

Yeah, I know but if shitty interiors never stopped Porsche owners from buying 911s.

And I hate to tell you but my Mazda3s has a nicer interior than the Accord. I liked the last-gen Sonata's interior better too.

M TYPE X

The new RL is aggressive from the front. Overall, it's a very nice package. But a lot of people buy mid-lux cars based on how aggressive the exterior looks. The RL is too close to an Accord "look" for some people.

Then again, the redesigned S-Class, in photos, looks like a bloated Camry.

fuckleberry

look = Extra-large Accord
but man I the technologies & handling

SPUDMTN

Are you serious about the cross-shopping thing? Sure people are going to cross shop the 5er with the RL. Many already have. Check out the RL forums. The RL is the same size as a 5er (or an E-class, A6, GS, M, etc...) and is comparably equipped. Further, it's priced accordingly. It's a midsized luxury car. Acura doesn't claim it to be anything else.

As a midsized luxury car, it is designed to look like one. This means sporty. Is the 5er sporty? Sure it is. A6? It has a sporty stance. What's so wrong with this? While this may be Acura's flagship sedan as of right now, "flagship" is all relative. In other words, Acura designed the RL as a midsizer--not a heavy weight luxo barge (think A8, 7er, LS, S-class, XJ, or Phaeton). If Acura were to build a large vehicle to compete with the preceding vehicles, it would have a more stately look to it.

I truely believe the problem lies in poor marketing. Where the RL used to be a wallflower in the midsize lux segment, it is now a player, and Acura needs to advertise it like crazy. Customers are not just going to start dropping in Acura dealers. The product is good now, and they just need to let everyone know that. That is the only way they're going to start snagging E-class, 5er, and GS sales.

--and now to get off topic--

Further, I find it interesting that Lexus has deceived everyone in thinking that the LS is actually a fullsize prestige luxury sedan. Yes, it currently is Lexus' flagship, but is it as big as its competitors? Nope. Check out the long wheelbase versions of the 7er and A8. There's gobs more legroom for rear seat passengers, and further, their prices are way higher than the LS's (the LS starts out in the mid 50's...all the other luxo barges start in the low 70's). Yes, the Lexus walks the walk and talks the talk, but it seems to be masquerading right now, if you ask me, as it really doesn't fit the bill as a full-fledged "prestige"/flagship model size-wise, or price wise.

swift22

man...acura really is screwing itself.

Now they want acura name over in japan...if it is the honda legend this year..next year it will be called??????


which bring me to my point: I work at lexus...people(older) are finally trading in there old legend sedans...for what..the LS430. Why, i think you can figure it out.

ACura is going downhill....hopefully when the new NSX concept comes out they will go up again.

SPUDMTN

But is it really? The products have never been better. It's the image that needs an infusion of life. For some reason, when people graduate from the TL they don't instinctively move up to the RL. They get themselves in a 5er or an E-class. It needs to be made known that the RL is just as good, if not better, than its status-y competition.

MSZ

Get your facts straight, Acura is going set all-time sales record for this year. http://hondanews.com/CatID3000?mid=2...48704&mime=asc

Thats why they are expanding to China and Japan, 2 of the biggest market in Asia.

F23A4

Acura is NOT going downhill. Acura's higher volume TL and TSX sedans are at record levels and YTD ONLY the RSX is down versus 2004 through Nov 2005. (Even NSX sales are up 17% YTD through November.)

Link

Most automakers fall short of being an equal alternative to Lexus at the LS' price point. (Despite its aging chassis, the Q45 probably comes the closest to the LS of any Asian automaker.)

Fortunately, the RL is NOT at the LS' pricepoint and thus returns terrific value for a $48k-$50k car. Not to mention, the RL (despite not having a V8) is noteably sportier than the LS; "older people" tend to lean more towards creature comforts over sport features so that probably explains the Legend-> LS move.

titan

THANKYOU. I was beginning to think that I was the only one that saw that. While Lexus will correct it's size issue with the next LS, this one doesn't offer the rear seat comfort as the Germans, and has never been as big or imposing as them. Lexus' brilliant marketing brilliance has lead to they're dominance. As far as the price, I won't argue with the fact that they'ver offered a great value as compared to the Germans. But they can afford to do it because they're not techo leaders like MB. MB always seems to offer some new electronic something (for better or for worse) that helps justify the S's crazy price.

mrdeeno

i agree that acura is NOT going downhill...they just have trouble going uphill at the same rate as the other makes have been.

i think that's more because of their stubborness than anything else...like with the RL.

most of us agree, probably along with the general public, that in order to be PERCEIVED as more prestigious, a manufacturer has to offer at least the levels of quality the RL and it's competitors offer, but also CHOICE...something the RL lacks. Choice as in options/packages...so what if they're bundled and more expensive, people still HAVE those choices with the other makes. Choices as in whether they want a sport model or regular...not dealer installed "a-spec" kits. Choice in v6 or v8, and rwd or awd.

This is obvious...see how popular the e-class and 5-series and GS are? All of them offer choices. So what if people have to option their cars out to be comparable to what the RL offers?...they at least have that CHOICE. Infiniti saw this and offers similar CHOICES with the M.

As for Acura...they just load the car up and TELL people what they need and don't need (ex. "you don't need rwd...awd is what you need" or "you don't need a v8, our powerful v6 is what you need" or "you don't need a sport option...our dealers can install the overpriced a-spec kit for you").

For example, let's say that I only eat blue M&M's. When I open up a bag, I eat only the blue ones and leave the others. What if M&M decides to only make blue ones. I'd feel cheated because I was forced to eat only blue ones rather than having a choice. Doesn't matter that i only eat blue ones...I WANT to be the one that chooses to eat the blue ones, not them.

I think it's the same with Acura. They load the car up with what they think people will like and TELL us to like it. This "one-size-fits-all" approach may work with civics and accords and even on tsx's and TL's, but at $50k+, I'd like a choice (more than one "tech package") in what is in my car and i'm sure most people who buy cars at this level also want CHOICE.

unlemming

But if they packaged only blue M&Ms, you would get exactly what you wanted and save yourself a lot of money on the other M&Ms. I agee that a small V8 would make the RL more blue M&M-y for more people, though. But if Honda makes a V8 they get egg on their face, and isn't that a big deal for the Japanese?

SPUDMTN

I suppose I have never looked at it this way. I do want choice. Choice is indeed a luxury. But I wonder if this really pushes buyers away. Further, I wonder if this is really the RL's problem...

mrdeeno

There's actually 2 prongs in my argument and one is more critical than the other.

1) Acura doesn't offer choices that some people [in this segment] want which turn buyers away.

2) Acura doesn't offer choices which turns buyers away.

I spent $56k on a m45 instead because I wanted a v8...I was turned away becuase of argument #1.

#1 is probably the big killer and #2 just adds to the pain. They can solve #2 (which they are trying with the Tech Package...but that's not enought to totally eliminate #2), but if they offer crap/overpriced options that people don't want, they still have #1 to deal with.

If they deal with #1 effectively, then #2 is moot.

But #2 by itself I feel is driving a lot of buyers away simply because what I stated in previous posts...TELLING a buyer, whose willing to spend $50k, what he wants is bad for the luxury business. It may work with civics and accords, but for the $50k+, the "luxury" buyer wants choice.

When i see my grandma, she throws veggies at me and tells me I HAVE to eat veggies. I love veggies and eat them regularly...but when she TELLS me I have to do something, I get turned off. Same thing.

mrdeeno

Honda is a business, not a popularity contest. If they get egg on their face, so what? if it's good for business that's all that counts. That's where their stubborness has hurt them. Honda should give the CONSUMER what he WANTS...not what HONDA thinks is good for him. They're gonna get egg on their face sooner or later...might as well save the pain and get it done now.

F23A4

Historically, the 5G Honda Accord was one such instance. While the Camry (~1988) and 626 (1993) went V6, Honda had NO intention of equipping the 5G Accord with a V6. (NOTE: there was a growing segment of people who wanted more powerful sedans without the quirkiness of turbos) Thus, it was engineered for the F22A motor only. The market forced Honda's hand and they had to stretch the 5G's frontend 3 inches to accomodate the old Legend C27A motor and rush the 95 AV6 onto the market.

But I will Honda credit on an area where they bucked the prevailing trend: VTEC. While Nissan (300ZX), Mistubishi (Starion) and Mazda (RX7) performance offerings were predicated on turbochargers, Honda focused on variable valve time technology to increase power while not adversely affecting gas mileage. Fast forward 20 years and variable valve timing (VVTLi, iVTEC, MIVEC, VVL) perdominate most Japanese performance and non-performance cars while turbos are only on a few applications (MS6, Evo, select Subarus).

So Honda has to bet whether A) V8s will go the way of turbos or B) will they have to adjust to the market in much the same manner as they did with the 5th gen Accord.

moomaster_99

In the mid-level luxury market, a V8 RWD is the engine/drivetrain that people want. People who get a 6 cylinder, do it for image....ie, they will not buy a 6 cylinder Honda.

TL is a hot seller because at the $30k entry level market......it is a great value and is probably the best car in the Acura lineup....sorry RL (dont get me wrong I love the SH-AWD and real time traffic), but too accord-looking and NSX is a one-off type of deal....