Colin

Interestingly, these two statements are a bit contradictory. Should Acura make a RWD vehicle, they would actually be "just like every other jellybean" cause all the accepted lux player are RWD.

Also, FWIW, Acura claims that the Tier 1 initiative is going forward so while they may have canceled the NSX, other projects continue.

(Cj)

slightly off topic what you posted on TOV.

wackura

By your own logic the TL AWD should be "canibalizing" RL sales at this moment.

If Acura is willing to make a TL trim that usurps the RL then by extension they are willing to make a TSX trim that overlaps the TL.

I don't believe anything is overlapping anything though. Discriminating car buyers will know the difference between a TL and a V6 TSX the same way they know the difference between and IS250 and an ES250.

SSFTSX

RL primary market is not US. and when you put 19inch rims on base RL. The price gap is atleast $7000 with TL-SH-AWD (Not including options like CMBS etc). This is not the case with TSX. Acura will want it make it as sporty as Maxima for FWD. and in that case its price with Tech package will be closer to $38K to $39K for Japanese built V6 sedan. ES350/IS-350 dont compete against each other. both have different sizes and characters/ price. TSX has 95% of interior space of TL FWD. Its good to have a choice but i believe V6 TSX will be more refined/Sporty than V6 TL. TL sales is collapsing. It will be the last straw in its back. I am actually in favor of V6 TSX. as i want some thing for future to trade in next 2 to 3 years. but that V6 TSX is not in Honda corporate interests.

JD23

Wouldn't it be in Acura's interest to capture as a large a market share as possible, even if some of the TL's sales are cannibalized by a V6 TSX? If you believe the FWD TL is a failure, it would be advantageous for Acura to offer a V6 TSX that may be successful, rather than admit defeat.

SSFTSX

FWD TL is already a developed product and share with Accord sedan. Even if TL is priced same as TSX. There is more profit in TL. V6 FWD Sport luxury sedan market is not big by itself. and with current production squeeze suppliers will be less willing to give volume discount to Honda. If there production cut plans for TSX untill August are true it will be very expensive for them to produce TSX V6. TL is atleast in production. The time for V6 TSXC was in 2003-04. the could have created lightwight 2.5 V6 with more torque like IS250.

valeratj

^ they could as well give TSX RWD like IS Lexuses. That would sure be nice

HeavyDuty

From Acura.com

RL Wheelbase 110.2
Overall length 195.8
Width 72.7 (yes, not as wide)

TL Wheelbase 109.3
Overall length 195.5
74.0 (yes, wider)

2 out of 3 is still bigger, right?

HeavyDuty

My point is, *if* they're truly moving forward to Tier 1, (let's keep it Japanese, but add German if y'all want) then Infiniti is *all* rwd and added awd if one wants it on some models, if not all. Lexus only has the ES and RX as FWD, or maybe an option of awd on the RX?

My point is, if you're gunning for Lex & Inf, employing old school big engine/small chassis but maintaning predominantly fwd with added transfer case and rear diff to make awd doesn't tier 1 make, IMHO. By my logic, it's "me too...kinda."

I haven't made any statements about anything canniblizing anything else. An I4 turbo TSX either fwd or awd seems a more natural "advanced" progression than a V6 to me, and with the transverse vs longitudinal mounting wouldn't really be a bullseye, but a baby step forward.

(Cj)

Audi is a luxury brand with FF platforms and big engines. Why can't Acura do the same?

JD23

Wait a minute. Earlier, you said that the TSX was nearly the same size as the TL and the TL was significantly smaller than the RL. I show that the TL is actually wider than the RL and all of 0.3" shorter, yet you still claim to be correct? As you said earlier, "please don't post legroom calculations and all that stuff. I'm talking brief overview and comparing them side-by-side." You actually think that most prospective buyers will notice the massive 0.3" difference in length between the TL and RL, and conclude that the RL is larger? The TL, on the other hand, is 9" longer than the TSX.

This data nullifies your earlier argument, which was that a V6 TSX was pointless because it would be too similar to the FWD TL. A little intellectual honesty would be nice.

HeavyDuty

I understand, I guess that makes Audi the Honda of Germany. It's kinda hard to *not* get into the German stuff, so then MB & BMW are also predominantly rear, aren't they? I'm asking, not telling.

HeavyDuty

Relax. I don't think I stated pointless, but rather the overlap, depending on drivetrain size & FWD/AWD didn't make sense to me.

I'm still talking layman POV from a side-by side & I'll add in price point *and* measurements, put all three cars together. I'm not thwapping my pecker on the keyboard here, I'm just trying to have a discussion.

As it stands;

TSX - Small midsize entry level sedan, 4 cylinder 30k base.

TL - Midsize sedan, V6 only, FWD (if one wants it) or AWD optional with higher horsepower. 40k

RL - Largest sedan they make, like it or not, lol, V6 only & AWD only. 50k

Boy, what I wouldn't give for an extra inch or a 1/3rd.

It looks like it's coming anyway, so I guess it's a moot point. I'm not trying to kill the fun a V6 would be in the TSX, but I would prefer the 2.3T *and* think it's a better fit for that chassis and it's placement in the lineup, that's all.

So, then Honda wants US built TL to pull sales away from the RL by it's new size & features? OK, makes sense, to me, no argument there.

JD23

Sorry if I came off a little harsh in the previous post. I agree with how you have the cars slotted in theory, but my point was that Acura created a gap when it super-sized the TL in both price and size. The SH-AWD Tech TL is now the size of a RL and only approximately $6k cheaper, creating some degree of overlap between the two. I think a FWD V6 TSX Tech for $35-36k or a SH-AWD V6 TSX Tech for $38-$39k would be a strong competitor for the 3-series, IS and G, as it seems Acura has moved the TL away from that class.

HeavyDuty

It's all good, I understand what you guys are saying. (Dom doesn't have to repeat it a 31st time, lol.) With the TL being so much bigger, then the V6 TSX would fill a gap. Making the TL so much bigger doesn't make sense either, but then again, if the idea is to peddle more of them than RL's, then yeah, I get that too.) I wasn't thinking as much about the TL's new girth as much as the TSX moving away from it's original target.

The 2.3T would accomplish the same thing, IMHO. Whether it be FWD or AWD, either way. I know Honda hasn't typically been a turbo engine company, which is what I've read here to be a perceived shortcoming or lack of focus. To that end I'd say that Windsor Castle is 1400 or so years old, but has toilets.

The writing is on the wall, apparently, so I need to quit whining, do a 2.3T swap or shut up. =P

(Cj)

Yeah, MB and BMW are all rear (except for novelty brands like Smart and Mini). VW/Audi is pretty much the same as Honda/Acura and it's been working pretty well for them (I'm sure SSFTSX can chime in on that for more detail ).


Audi is seen as a luxury brand even with the limitations of FWD. They capitalized on their Quattro AWD system and showed that it can be competitive with equivalent RWD vehicles. Now Acura is doing the same with SH-AWD (like when Acura invited some of the media to test the 6MT SH-AWD TL against it's direct RWD and AWD competitors).


The only thing missing from the formula to bring Acura to luxury status like Audi are big engines. It's nice that Acura has a 300 hp TL that can compete with the 335, G35, and A4, but they have nothing to compete with anything higher than that. They have no product to take on the 545, M45, or A6, let alone the M3, 7, S4, A8, C63, S.


Acrua needs big saloons with big engines to be a true tier one luxury brand. That's what Lexus (and to a lesser degree Infiniti) has that Acura doesn't. The most powerful Acura ever is still outgunned by the entry level IS350 (and the IS is significantly faster too).

dom

Sorry about that. That wasn't aimed at you. We've just seen the "TSX can't have a V6 because it will overlap with the TL" comments so many times.

From what Colin and few others have said, Honda isn't happy with the 2.3T so we're unlikely to see it again. A mistake IMO as it seems FI is the future. I think its the application that hurt the 2.3, not the motor.

Colin

IMO the only reason the 'enthusiast' community wants FI is to they can tune it. As a marketing tool in a family sedan it has limited appeal. Even the 330 sells the the general populace because it has 300 hp vs. 228 (or whatever the base is). If this had been a 335i with a 3.5 liter NA engine, certain folks would have bought it 'just because' it was the big engine and not the base engine. What I'm saying is: except for those planning to mod the car, Turbos sell for what the DO and not what the ARE. Remember, this is IMO.

So based on what I think above, why isn't the RDX a success? If people buy "what it does" then the RDX should be a hit. I suspect it comes down to two things: fuel efficiency and ride quality. It could be (as others have stated), that the execution of the RDX is the flaw. It is likely that people looking for a smaller SUV than a MDX want better fuel efficiency in exchange for the smaller size. It is likely that men (the target audience) don't want 'cute utes' but rather 'brute utes'. Thus the typical shopper is a female. They are usually put off by the ride which was supposed to appeal to the 'male TSX demographic' So Acura rolled the dice and came up empty. So please don't say they never take a chance.

So where does this bring us regarding the engine in the TSX. Based on the past performance, why in the world would they want to put the K23T in another vehicle that targets the same demographic and the RDX? A V6 is the easy way out and for once, it makes sense for Honda to do this, A V6 is smooth, quiet, and relatively fuel efficient, all the qualities an upmarket TSX needs. Remember all of this is IMO.

So where does this leave the K23T? I wrote this reply earlier but it got buried under a flurry of other posts and I don't think anybody saw it:

SSFTSX

V6 is easy to put in Sport sedan with all its handling and weights requirements. It needs major investment thats why Maxima is $10K costly than Altima despite both are V6.
V6 wont fly with rest of the world and US market is barely few thousands per year. with price very close to TL as it is Japanese built Car.
so why would make Honda such investment? Honda needs investement to improve its diesel engine. second to introduce high performanc highbrid that is 4 cylinder in fuel economic and V6 in performance. third the need real turbo technology for high performance. There is new 2.5L turbo with 340bhp from Audi. by the time Honda comes up with these technologies they will be shut from EU and all its volume manufacturer advantages will evaporate for Euro Accord and it will have direct impact on TSX.

(Cj)

That was very good, but I think a turbo would work better in a sedan versus a CUV because of the points that you made. The majority of CUV buyers (especially luxury CUVs) are women with families. The majority of sport sedan buyers are single urbanites. That being the case a smooth quiet fuel efficient engine is required in a CUV (because those are all things that women and in particular moms and families want). Sport sedans are more about the driving experience and performance and the K23T certainly delivers an exhilarating experience and impressive performance.


What holds the K23T back is the vehicle it's in. The RDX is as fast as the SH-AWD TL and that's with less HP in a less aero-efficient package (the weights are about the same). If the TSX had the RDX's engine it would be very very fast (faster than the A4 2.0T), and I'm sure it'd be relatively efficient too. But I digress, since we all know that we're are going to have a V6 TSX and not a Turbo TSX. V6s are more "high end" anyway.

LukeaTron

Ugh, it's pretty boring to listen you dictate to us how Honda/Acura needs to stop being Honda/Acura and start being some inbred step child of every other manufacturer on the planet. Beyond that, your reasoning is based on the fact that the American market is not worth so much as a second glance.

You may not have noticed, but Americans love cars.

Edit: This post is directed at SSFTSX.

LukeaTron

Huh? Do you have anything to back this up? The vast majority of other TSX drivers I see are 40 to 60 year old women. The previous owner of my 04 6mt was a woman in her 60s (though she did manage to eat a clutch in 50k miles). My totally unscientific observations clash with your presuppositions like an early 20th century ocean liner and an iceberg.

(Cj)

Here's the original press release of the 2004 TSX:

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/742/releases/1295

And the 2009:

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/745/releases/4440

Sports sedans appeal to a younger demographic than CUVs (hence why the Lexus RX is doing well and the RDX is not).

wackura

You have to be kidding. The RDX looks really girly to me. The whole concept of the crossover in general seems directed at women.

LukeaTron

It seems the audience that Acura is hoping to hit with the TSX is not the audience it's actually hitting. Perhaps some of these, shall we say, well aged women are buying the car in a bid to (re)capture some of the appeal to the younger generation Acura is making. It would seem to be a case of throwing something at a wall and finding that what has stuck is not at all what they were hoping for. At the same time, what they're doing now in terms of marketing seems to be moving vehicles (I see a lot of the 09s around) and in the end, do they really care how wrinkled the hand that feeds might be?

I have to wonder if this wasn't their real target audience all along given the shift towards the luxury end of the scale at the expense of sportiness that we've seen in the second gen. Marketing messages aren't always what they appear to be on their face.

Colin

So lets say that they wanted to put the K23 in a TSX. They cannot use a top mounted intercooler without some form of venting. If they add a hood scoop they will loose all but 'ricers' who like that sort of thing. If they move to a front mounted intercooler, the main advantage of the variable flow turbo (low lag) is negated by the long plumbing needed to go to the intercooler and back.

It may end up being efficient, but I doubt it would be more efficient than an equivalent V6. And this is what NOBODY on an enthusiast forum understands. YOU here (and I love you guys) are a minority. Most buyers don't understand a turbo at all or why a 4 cylinder turbo gets the same mileage as a V6 (of equal power). Oh I can explain it to them, but most shake their heads and wonder why the '4 banger' gets such bad mileage. (again, not bad empirically, but equal to a 6 cyl, is bad in THEIR minds)

Then we're on to the economics of it. A US built RDX Tech is already over 37K. I can't see how a AWD TSX made in Japan would be any less. We do not need in any shape or form a 37K+ TSX with a small trunk, and no MT (till after the TL next year). We need a solid car that can sell in the 30,000 units per year range with no need for incentives. And that my friends is a V6.

Colin

Bingo! Do you really think the Element is for Gen Xers? They can't afford it, so they buy Xbs. It is for those who view THEMSELVES as youthful. Marketers cater to who we want to be! (Viagra anyone?)

So to Wack's comment about the RDX and women. The marketers say its for a young active male who lives in a renovated downtown loft and goes to the country to snowboard or mountain bike. Might this also target an upwardly mobile women who views herself the equal of her male counterparts? Who knows, maybe it's all psychobable...

SSFTSX

American market is very important for Honda. Thats why they created TL/MDX/RDX etc for it. so why would Honda go further than that when V6 is sure failure in 500 million EU market not even considering Asia.

SSFTSX

So they cut $5K more expenisve TSX because it was high for the market. but they are no considering depreciaiton which diesels cars have less and V6 have the most.

LukeaTron

I doubt a depleted uranium slug would even get through to you.

Why did they put the K24 in the TSX for the American market and not the K20 that the rest of the world got? Is that not the same exact prescription for failure?

(Cj)

I don't think the complete K23T unit would be any taller than the iDTEC that was going to be in it. That has somewhat of a hump on the hood from what I understand to fit all the components. I'm no expert on all of this, but iDTEC is pretty big and tall and it's taller than the old iCTDi. The A4 is able to achieve I4 efficiency and V6 power and I'm sure Honda could do the same if they put their minds to it, but like I said I digress. I know that V6 is the more sensible choice for Acura right now in the TSX and no mods would have to be done to fit it in.

LukeaTron

A diesel TSX would be a substantially harder sell in the US than a V6 despite the gains in fuel economy. Saab, Mercedes, VW and Volvo essentially poisoned that well for several generations with their stinky, noisy, terribly unrefined offerings in the 80's and early 90's. For diesel to gain a toehold here, it would take a huge disparity operating costs that probably won't ever happen.

The average American looks about 4 years into the future at most when considering a new vehicle. They aren't going to be tremendously concerned about a 5% difference in resale value. A V6 offers instant gratification via the right foot. That alone will sell some cars.

wackura

The thing about targeting a specifc demo is surely made up, intended to give off the impression that the company has passion and intention when in reality it's trying to create the tastiest vanilla ice cream they possibly can.

Scion vehicles look much more targeted to a young demo. The only way in which the TSX seems directed at a younger audience is in it's pricing. It has a luxury name plate while at the same time being affordable. Anyone how can afford a top trim Accord can afford a TSX. Older demos that go for luxury name plates usually have more disposable income due to having no kids, perhaps a payed off mortgage, more in savings, etc.

wackura

When I saw the TSX commercial with the cool guy and cool girl clubbing I knew they weren't targetting clubbers because there is obviously too few clubbers in a given market who will buy enough TSXs to meet sales targets. About 1 in 10 of the people who saw the ad and bought a TSX probably go clubbing, the other 9 of 10 could go clubbing if they wanted to, or will get around to it soon, atleast that's what they tell themselves.

Colin

In most of the pics Iv'e seen if iDTEC (even those on my page) do not show the intercooler. Do you know if, when installed in the car, if it is top mounted? The older system iCTD did not have an intercooler on top which made it shorter to fit underhood without modifications (to the hood).

(Cj)

I have no idea. I'll look it up . I know that Jeff said over at TOV that the new iDTEC unit is taller, but I'll investigate if that is because of the intercooler.

(Cj)

Jeff said that the test mule Accord (TSX) he drove had a hood bulge in it, so I'll have to see why exactly the iDTEC unit is taller than the iCTD. Anyway, because there is already a hood bulge, it might not be that much of a problem to fit the K23T in there, at worse the intercooler would have to be moved to the front (hurting performance slightly), but that's the beauty of turbos. They're flexible.

Colin

Yeah, but at that point, its no longer a 'drop in'. In the best case, they move the IC, and in the worse case, it changes the engine mapping enough that it requires a re-certification with the EPA. That alone would kill it for sure.

dom

Whatever the reason, Turbo's and FI seems to be the latest trend. More/same power with greater fuel efficiency. I don't think that trend is going anywhere.

LukeaTron

Turbos and direct injection seem like a short term winner (10 years or so tops). In the long run though, electric motors offer so much more instant torque than a (reasonably sized) combustion engine can ever offer. It's just a matter of making electricity more portable. Honda is and has been making huge investments in the full electric vehicle segment so you can bet when the technology matures, they'll be up at the front of the pack.