valeratj

I am not saying that V6 wont fit or suspension cant be tuned. I am saying that weight distribution will be different. And what exactly RWD rivals can TL-S beat? BMW 325i ? I am sorry, but FWD meets its limit at 250-270 BHP. RWD is limited to around 500HP, then AWD takes over. IS350 has a V6 in it and it has RWD, but TSX is FWD. I know that TSX is faster than IS250, but with higher power u need RWD

wackura

After having changed the tires on the 2G I'm a fan of the electronic steering. I was remarking to my wife that the original issue I had with not finding center are deader than ... dead. I literally can't find the problem any more even if I look for it and try imagine what it used to feel like. I think electronic steering paired with nice tires has a good shot at mitigating the extra lbs. sitting on the front wheels better than traditional power steering provided the also throw in AWD. If they don't the car will still drive itself but at least it will be easier to correct.

CarbonGray Earl

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4459

The TL-S beat out the g35 in this comparo. It had plenty of glowing reviews.

Point is, a previous gen TL-S is the same size, weight. It's possibly the same configuration as a TSX (FWD). Weight distribution didn't affect feel on that TL-S, or for that matter, the mazda6 v6, or the accord v6. Additionally, the new TSX doesn't match the old TSX for nimbleness (or size), so the difference we are arguing over isnt so drastic.

And yes, I understand weight distribution and the effect it can have. Honda has been dealing with this for quite some time. The weight distribution can certainly be accounted for, its not unprecedented nor is it an engineering impossibility to make it handle well.

Edit: Valertj, we don't know the power of the car, whether its getting AWD, or whether they will do anything mitigate the effects of torque steer. Its moot at this point to argue the drive wheels when we don't know power.

dom

I can't believe that with the number of FWD V6 cars that are in the market today we're still arguing this point.

Accord
Camry
Atlima
Malibu
Fusion
Sonota
TL
ES
Maxima
Mazda 6
Passat
Mazda 3 (Turbo with tons of Tq)
and the list goes on.

Sure most of them aren't sport sedans but most of them are pretty damn good drivers cars in which the positives outweigh the negatives. And most have well over 250HP. This is NOT the first time a V6 has been put into a FWD car, not even close. And again, the TL-S is a great example of properly managed power.

JD23

I think I personally fit in this category. When I look for a new car over the next couple years, I doubt that I will want another 4-cylinder, which rules out the current TSX, and I'm unsure whether I want to move up to a TL, which is $40,000+ (SH-AWD) and as large as a RL. I think a V6 TSX will fill the gap and appeal to younger, single people who are not concerned with having a large rear seat, which is one of the benefits of the new TL.

dom

I know I'm in that category.

SSFTSX

The point is not about V6. I am sure there are customers base who will want V6 TSX. But does it fit the Honda corporate strategy of survival and profit.
The answer is clear No. Even Maxima goes for $38K in sport sedan form without AWD. The price point of V6 TSX for both Honda to make profits and for consumers to buy in sufficient numbers is not favorable.

dom

Can I ban you if a V6 TSX is released?

Since you seem so sure you should have no problem saying yes.

CarbonGray Earl

SSFTSX: "Honda's long term survival and profit."

We're talking about acura and we're talking about essentially a niche and speculative product at this point. We're talking about a company that has R&D money tied up into making a walking robot, jets, and has some of the best selling vehicles in their respective classes. They have the money, the planning, and the corporate structure to deal with those things, let alone sticking a v6 in a TSX. Its ludacris to believe this product that would probably represent less than a one half of one quarter of the TSX's sold would have such an drastic effect on Acura, let alone "Honda's long term survival and profit."

Your behavior and your postulates are downright trollish.


....back to the ignore list you go. and hopefully you graduate into ban heaven.

(Cj)

That's the loaded price of the Maxima. The base price is about $28K, so I think the base price of the SH-AWD V6 TSX is gonna be somewhere in the low to mid 30s. A loaded version with special wheels and tech package will probably be right at the $40K mark.

valeratj

All I want is AWD + K23.... I dont need a V6.

JD23, younger people with no need for back seats can buy 350Z

JeffS

That would be me too! The 3G TL was too big for me and the 1G TSX was the perfect size. I went from a V6 to a 4 with the TSX and I'm ready to get back into a 6 and the 4G TL is NOT even an option. It's huge and UGLY! Without a V6 TSX I'm left to go elsewhere like BMW.

JD23

I want back seats and a trunk, I just don't want a 195 in. car. I don't understand why you think the only cars with a V6 should be sports cars and land barges. Also, I live in the snowbelt and a RWD sports car is not even an option

LukeaTron

He's a stupid kid who can't see past his own nose. Don't bother arguing with him.

Colin

So you're not only sexist but ageist too!? Ha Ha, just kidding! Regarding K23, I am pretty confident you want see it again unless they can find a good platform to exploit its characteristics while minimizing it's downsides.

LukeaTron

What kind of platform do you think would fit that particular bill?

From what I've read, Honda doesn't seem too thrilled with that engine. Given the commitment Obama has shown to getting the increased CAFE standards back on track, I don't see bright future for that motor.

Colin

I think an AWD coupe would work well. They could use a smaller chassis (TSX) and not worry about back seat or trunk space as much. Even a hood scoop wouldn't be a big deal on a sporting vehicle. Buyers of sport coupes are probably better prepared for lower fuel economy and since coupes are sold in limited in numbers, they wouldn't affect CAFE too much. Finally, this fills a niche that the Accord Coupe and Civic Coupe do no play in.

Problem areas: No 6-MT for AWD yet. The TL is scheduled to get it first so he earliest we'd see it is 2011. Even if it's a stunning performer, would people pay mid 30s for a 4 cylinder? Maybe?

SSFTSX

They can certainly released TSX with V6 but customer base and price is unfavorable for its success. You can see it from Altima and Maxima. Where there is $10K price difference between V6 Sedans. It is far expensive to create Sport handling V6 FWD sedan let a alone AWD. US built Maxima has things like integrated turn signals/larger moon roof/HDD navigation/18inch.
US built TL 3.2 FWD started around $33.5K for 2008 model year. Add tech package. It was $35.5K price. so how much is going to cost Japanese built 2010 model year similar concept. and it has $1000 dollar more expensive tech package. TSX is heavier vehicle for 4cylinder. It has just 120 lbs weight difference with 3G TL.

Colin

You honestly don't expect a direct answer do you?

valeratj

exactly right. Also, there is Accord V6 EX-L if u need a sub-TL car with V6 engine.

LukeaTron

What constitutes success? They'll sell every one they make if they make the right amount. It's obviously not going be a big volume vehicle as the potential customer base is not huge. But it's not zero either.

CarbonGray Earl

Its funny how these guys are arguing that an accord v6 and a TL v6 is exactly what a TSX v6 is.

In that case, we all shoulda bought EX-L Accords w/ k24s. Its got a k24, leather, and FWD, its exactly the same! What's the point of the TSX?

Get real....a v6 accord or a v6 TL is not a TSX v6. It assumes we as buyers don't know what we want, when we do know.

valeratj

^no, Accord EX-L doesnt have 205HP engine

wackura

I want sub-TL in size not price. I don't understand the motives of those who wish that the TSX remain a 7 second 4 banger (aside from SSXSXTSXSX who wants to butsecks Toyota) lets just say for the sake of argument that Honda looks far and wide to determine the interest in a fast TSX, why do you want to discourage them? Why don't you want a V6 TSX even if it is a sales failure? Do you own stock in Honda? no you don't you broke ass middle class bastard. All said and done, it's better to try and fail than to not try at all, which is how one might characterize the past five years of Acura.

JD23

The Accord also does not handle nearly as well as the TSX. I think some current TSX owners are staunchly against a V6 TSX because they feel that their car would somehow be inferior if a V6 was offered.

LukeaTron

^^ Bingo.

(Cj)

That's what I don't get. Current owner don't have to buy the V6 TSX. The I4 will still be available for those that prefer lighter weight and more balanced handling. The average American doesn't care as much about balance so they'll likely up for the V6 so that they can get more power.

LukeaTron

The average american does care a whole lot about price though. The likely ratio of V6 to I4 will probably be on par with TL to TL-S sales. It would be a huge mistake for Honda to overproduce the V6 version. If anything, they're probably better off underproducing so as to keep demand high. The V6 version would not be a big money maker for Honda so it doesn't make much sense to spend a lot of money building more than can be moved off the lots quickly.

CarbonGray Earl

Now do you get it? You're agreeing with me, and you don't even know it.

The accord k24 is not a tsx k24.

The TSX j3x will not be an accord j3x.

The TSX j3x will not be a TL j3x.


Now take this home: A TSX buyer will not accept an Accord or TL. They want a TSX. They aren't as stupid as you think they are.

CarbonGray Earl

Agree with these 2 points.

For the consumer, its about choice. For Honda, its about producing just under anticipated demand to avoid overproducing and to artificially create some demand and buzz. They did so with the first gen tsx, and many other cars.

Additionally, on Cj's point, I think alot of folks go in wanting a TSX, but not knowing whether the K24 would suffice for them or a v6 would be too pricey. These folks on the fence need to have a v6 to bring them in, but buyers have an out by buying a k24. If I had a dime for every BMW owner that said, "I went in for a 335 but a 328 was enough..." well, i'd have alot of money for car part.

(Cj)

Lol, at the the last comment. It's very true. A V6 will draw more people in. The TL is more upmarket now and the price may be a bit more daunting (especially when people hear that the AWD model is as high as $44K). Currently most wouldn't want to step down into a TSX because it has an I4 which is seen as cheap, but they don't want the TL either. That group of buyers usually end up at Infiniti. A V6 TSX will fill that slot for buyers so Acura won't experience as much bleeding. It'll make the TSX seem more prestigious too. When there's a V6 in the line more people wouldn't mind stepping down and buying the I4 model. The I4 will then be seen as the "sensible" choice and not the "poor man's choice".

valeratj

Accord's K24 = 170HP

TSX's K24 =201HP

Accord's V6 = 270 HP


TSX sits sort of in the middle. what kinda V6 would u propose? what specs? Personally, I wouldnt buy neither a V6 Accord nor a V6 TSX bc of FWD. For me, 230-250 BHP is the limit for FWD. I would buy IS350 instead

CarbonGray Earl

You can assume this was known by me and others here. Don't forget the 190 hp k24 that the accord has as well, which is the EX-L I referred to. A k24 TSX and k24 Accord are closer than you think.

IS350...you might as well buy that 350z you argued for if you don't care for a backseat as small as the IS350 has. An IS350 is well beside the point. I find it ironic that you want a k23 but you don't want a v6 accord or TSX. Ironic in that, if any of us gen 1 guys had that engine, we'd be finding ways to up boost, torque steer and FWD be damned.

I care not to speculate on what v6 they should offer, only that whatever they offer be handled in the appropriate manner. I'll give honda the benefit of the doubt. I, like many others, are at least willing to look at it. And FYI, an Accord v6 does drive pretty well as does many of the FWD v6 cars Dom listed.

Lastly, its interesting that you limit FWDs to 230-250 hp. The issue is much more complex than popular lore regarding FWD and setting an arbitrary number for which FWD cars cannot pass. I remember people saying the limit for FWD was 200 hp. And yet here we are, with a 4cyl TSX over 200, and a TL that's been well over 200 hp FWD v6 for over a decade. The TL has been Acura's best selling vehicle by a large margin in a FWD v6

Colin

What? I seriously doubt if a V6 TSX would be anywhere near the price of an IS350.

Lumryan

Agreed, You're a smart man.

SSFTSX

I went back to calculation. Maxima starts at $30K (No leather) and ends up at $38K with HDD Navigation/18inch rims/290bhp. This US built FWD sports sedan for 2009 model year under Nissan badge. The closest competitor is TL FWD Tech which lacks the 18inch rims but cost $39K. both are US built. How can Japanese built V6 FWD sports sedan can be less than this price.
Cars like ES-350 can be built cheaply with no handling power like Maxima.

HeavyDuty

Well, then they need to make their product lineup predominantly RWD and add stubs for the front if one wants AWD, not the other way around. I heard that the idea is now shelved due to market conditions. Even then, without a V8, I'd pass still if that were my target vehicle.

For crying out loud, even Hyundai has a RWD V8 sedan now, right?

Infiniti Q56? I'm there.

V6 TSX? Eh, whatever, then they'd be just like every other jellybean to me. Honda has always kinda been the Bellwether doing their own thing, you know? They've always been a leader in specific output and efficiency, not king of the overall horsepower wars.

To each their own though, it doesn't matter to me either way. If they build it, ok, whatever.

HeavyDuty

Quote:
Originally Posted by wackura
By that same logic the RL fit's the TL's bill. Why does the TL exist?

The RL is larger, and is AWD only, right? The TL is FWD or AWD & a little bit larger than a TSX.

Please don't post legroom calculations and all that stuff. I'm talking brief overview and comparing them side-by-side.

TSX69

I am more surprised that it took Acura this long to offer a 2nd engine option. Granted, I would have preferred a hybrid or diesel (maybe even the turbo) for variety but a v6 does seem more logical. I predict ~$2,000 premium like it is w/ the Accord unless they force v6 buyers to get other options like a spoiler. This should still put it @ ~$3,000 less than the comparable TL.

Altho I see nothing wrong w/ having an i4, I can see how that might impede their efforts to tier 1 as no one else offers it & non-luxury vehicles like the Accord have that option. Offering it as 2nd engine choice would silence a lot of complaints ... leaving the only other big complaint: FWD (SH-AWD could be the next addition?)

The 1st generation got such positive reviews like winning C&D 10 Best: Sports Sedan 3 years in a row that I am sure Acura wants to recapture that glory (well, maybe not since they seem to be moving more towards luxury than sport). In 2003/4, 200hp did not seem as anemic as it does now thanks to the HP wars. I do not think that it needs >300hp like the IS350 or G37 since the TL, RL & MDX barely make that but @ least something comparable to its cousin, the Accord.

JD23

You are sorely mistaken about the size of the TL and RL, as they are almost identically sized and the TL is actually wider.

TL- Length: 195.3" Width: 74"
RL - Length: 195.8" Width: 72.7"

The 2G TSX is actually much closer in size to the 3G TL than is the 4G TL.