HeavyDuty

SSFTSX

But those V6 platforms share some thing like Honda legend/Acura RL, TL/Accord, Pilot/MDX etc. Where is TSX counterpart?
But it does not have 62 dba NVH levels of 5 series and sporty character and quality of finish.

(Cj)

Please don't forget that ALL of the vehicles you listed are ON THE SAME PLATFORM.

Ummm, when was 230 hp in a midsizer "sporty" lol, and I don't consider pleather a "quality finish".

SSFTSX

And they are made where?.
You should understand by now that Honda is run by bean counters. One of its products that desperately needs V6 is CRV. as it is too heavy for four cylinder and fuel economy is worse or similar to 6 cylinder RAV4/Highlander. but Honda does not want to invest in it. so higher priced people go to Toyota and lower priced to Honda.
Check the performance figures. they are very good. Alway remember the low end Pull of German sedans. with aerodynamic and transmission setup with excellent 50/50 weight distribution. It seems you dont fully understand sports luxury sedan concept.
Just look at top speed and performance figures.


http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

dom

I was right there with you when it debuted in 06 but have you seen CR-V sales figures? Its now the best selling SUV in America. Apparently most people don't agree that it needs a V6. Although I guess a argument can be made for even more sales if a V6 was optional.

SSFTSX

Combined sales of CRV/Pilot is the same as RAV4/Highlander. Toyota is quite happy to let honda take lower priced 4 cyinder models sales. Part reason is that there was perception on in consumers from 06-08 that 4 cylinder are autamatically more fuel efficient than 6 cylinder. but now People are slowly realising the advantage of V6 in compact SUV.
I am just giving example of Honda. They always follow the past. Never been able to create market segement for high value product. Always chasing low segment which other manufacturer usually leave after some time. RAV4 intorduction in 1996 is good example & its progress to V6.

dom

You're off on a tangent. Who cares what RAV/Highlander sales are compared to the CR-V/Pilot. Point is, the CR-V is a run away success with only a 4 being offered. Honda succeeded at what they set out to do. End of debate.

The fact that the RAV even with a V6 option is outsold by the CR-V should tell you something

Colin

:shakehead Its never the end

cuteguy1414

iTrader: (1)

Wow, this SSFTSX guy must be the stupidest guy in the world! He goes off-tangent ( again) on the one of only two people sympathetic to him in this thread. DOM, I think you should reconsider your opinion of the guy. He is like a robot who only thinks of his opinions.
Try to ban him and he will go off tangent again and tell you the combined sales of the CRV/Pilot..lol.

SSFTSX

But this thing indicates that Honda is only good for 4cylinder. The moment they jump to V6 and higher Value product sales fall down.
And it is likely most of CRV sales are low priced FWD SUVs. A company success is measured by the high margin product. There is no point in increasing Fit sales when Accord sales are falling way behind Camry. Toyota was highly successfull in pushing down overpriced Prius/Camry/highlander/Lexus highbrids down the consumer throats.
while Honda insight/Accord/Civic hybrids are failure. Now they want to introduce Insight with even lower price than Prius.

Acura has reasonable success with 4cylinder TSX. TSX V6 without doubt will be failure . Consumers are simply not willing to pay for higher priced Honda/Acuras. The best option is always be to introduce lower priced version of TSX with K20A engine. You can see this in EU. Lexus are not putting 4cylinder gasonline in IS. Brand image is always there.



You can see for V6 it needs 4WD RAV4. RAV4 has now grown into different class. More in midsize with third row seats. So it is unfair to compare it with CRV.

TSX69

Just chiming in to say that the CR-V consistently outsells the Rav4 @ a large margin.

Sales So Far for 2008:
CR-V 183,346; -8.9%
Rav4 128,225; -19.6%

Pilot 90,011; -16%
Highlander 96,870; -14.7%

Back on Topic: whatever optional engine they put in the TSX, I wish that they would hurry up. I would have thought for sure that they would have had it ready for the 2009 launch ... 5 years of only having a 4 cylinder engine is plenty. If they are worried about overlapping w/ the 2009 TL, the old reliable 3.2 engine would be good for ~250 or of course the RDX turbo would both still slot the TSX under the base TL.

Colin

No rush really, dealers are probably selling through the remaining 2008 TLs (thus providing the ~ 30K V6 Acura that I've been talking about). A mid year intro or early fall intro would probably work just fine.

cor6bro

Exactly, in its current 4-cylinder form, the TSX can be viewed somewhat as an up-luxury alternative to the Civic Si (sans LSD); even more so for the 1st-Gen TSX. That may not be a bad thing since it sold roughly half as much as the 3rd-Gen TL. However, other manufacturers have upped the overall performance for their vehicles while the 2nd-Gen hasn’t moved the bar by much from a performance perspective. Okay for entry level, perhaps. A V6 TSX may sell, but implementation is critical and it shouldn’t be saddled with a mildly tuned J35 VCM motor. There is no sense in creating a V6-powered TSX if it cannot at the very least match the 3rd-Gen TL performance levels. Even then you’re conceding rear seat leg and head room, probably nose heavy, and combating the physics associated with having a high torque, transversely mounted motor in FWD configuration. SHAWD would help, but this adds cost, weight and complexity – a slippery slope. Might as well take aim at the BMW 335 then and go for a high powered, 280+ hp J35, or better yet, a 300+ hp J37 variant. Conversely, there should be a slightly higher powered alternative to the current inline 4. It can be FWD but should have at least 180-200 ft-lbs torque, 220-240 hp and weigh close to the current vehicle. Not sure what power plant would fit the bill.

TS_eXpeed

Not to take this off track, but you need to learn about this button....

(Cj)

I'm thinking their going after the entry level V6 engines of the competition (328i, C300, IS250). The reason I think that is because the TL is supposedly going head to head with the up market engines of the 3,C,IS and at the same time taking on the entry level engines of the 5,E,ES/GS. If you look at pricing the 3,C, and IS are all between $32-35 and a V6 TSX would only cost $3K more than the I4 version (meaning $32K).

If SH-AWD is standard on the V6 TSX it would compete with the 328ix, C300 4matic, and IS250 AWD. Those sedans are all priced from $34-36K and a TSX SH-AWD would be right in that range.

The TSX currently only competes with the Volvo S40 and Saab 9-3 and it out performs both of those sedans. The new V6 model will take on the entry level sedans from established luxury marques giving the TL more room to move further up.

Where dynamics are concerned, the V6 will be no where near as balanced as the I4, but it will give the luxury buyer a high torque option. I don't think the average consumer will care about 50/50 F/R weight distribution. They just want a luxurious reasonably powerful entry level premium sedan. Why else do you think the Lexus ES outsells the IS and GS combined. Luxury buyers don't care. Especially Japanese lux buyers. Most buy TLs and ESs for reliability and fuel economy not all out performance and handling dynamics.

In summation all I'm saying is I don't think a V6 TSX needs to appeal to enthusiast. It just needs to appeal to the majority of lux buyers and steal a few sales from the IS, ES, 3, C, A4, etc.

(Cj)

Oh yeah

SSFTSX

You're delusional in more ways than one. Honda's have higher prices than Toyota's and they still sell in resonable number (somethimes outselling their Toyota counterparts). Honda is not a "cheap" company. Just look at the interior of the Camry then go look at the interior of the Accord.

The only place Toyota has something right is Lexus, but they are even now falling. The majority of their sales come from the RX and now that RX's sales are falling Lexus is bleeding quickly. Have you seen the replacement for the RX? Lexus has taken a step back and the new RX looks no where near as good and nice as the Acura MDX. If the next RX bombs Lexus has very little hope of maintaining any sales lead over Mercedes and even Acura.

There's more to cars then engines and fuel economy, and Honda/Acura currently have the best overall package. Why else do you think Honda is still gaining market share in the US.

Once Acura's tier one lineup rolls out Lexus will have nothing on Acura. Acura will surpass Lexus in US sales and Acura's global sales will likely also increase incrementally.

cor6bro

Agreed, torque tends to be the differentiator for the NA market. A four stroke normally aspirated four is at a disadvantage since there is only one cylinder powering the motor thru every 180 degrees of crank travel. This goes down to 120 degrees crank travel per power stroke for a 6-cylinder mill. There is no argument that a F22C would be unsuitable for hauling around a 3400+ lb vehicle. Needless to say vehicle weight is more critical to a 4-cylinder vs. a 6-cylinder. The K24 probably has yet untapped potential within the current rev range, however, for one reason or another, it hasn’t been pursued by Honda. The counterpoint is that there is room to improve the TSX within its current framework. The cost associated with incorporating a V6 and SHAW could conversely be put into overall weight savings for the current chassis.

High-revving engines may not be the key to the American luxury segment, however the American press is. Scoring accolades for the TSX with the press would boost Acura’s position in the segment substantially. It’s akin to free advertisement. That’s something that Acura seems not to embrace.

It’s somewhat unfortunate that Acura’s low 30’s V6 sedan offering was vacated when the TL went upscale. However, the TSX will inevitably have problems within this area because it’s more cramped in the back seat area than the old 3rd-Gen TL. We’ll see in the near future if this was a wise move for Acura to concede this area without an “apples for apples” replacement for the 3rd-Gen TL. Besides, the TL of old sold in part due to its perceived value vs. its competitors. Regardless, an up-engined TSX would have to be compelling in one form or another.

SSFTSX

I think you are bit carried away. Honda had good run untill september due to fuel economy. Honda is gaing market share because Big 3 are in tank. Even Nissan is gaining market share.
Toyota sales are not only twice of Honda but more towards higher end. It is true that toyota sales have fallen down but it is more concentrated on Taundra/Sequio.
Prius/Camry hybird/Matix X cost as much as EX-V6 Accord.
Corrolla Sells more than Civic
Non-Hybrid Camry alone sells more than Accord. (despite Camry is two year older).
There is well distributed line up of SUVs for every price range for RAV4/4Runner all the way upto LandCruiser.(Sell of 1000 Landcruiser is almost equal to 1800 MDX).

V6 Engines of Toyota are very good as much fuel efficient as 4 cylinder Honda.
Acura gain market share because they introduce two new models and clean the inventory of 08 models at rock bottom prices. future of those two models is very uncertain.
Lexus is well established in Europe/Middleast and Lexus sales in China alone are 10 times of Acura.
Acura has limited World presence trying to do more with less amount of money at end mess up things on which they were really good. Like previous Integra/TSX. Acura better concentrate on 4cylinder Cars and not compete in hybrids/V6 with big boys as it simply dont have the technical base/Money to waste on limited sales projects. And for these reason i think NSX is canned. Just look at Lexus IS-F/Cabrio and now there is Super IS hybrid in works.

valeratj

K23 is all these cars lack. Oh and RWD

97AcuraCL

any possibility of a TSX coupe?

(Cj)

Rumor is that they'll be a convertible akin to the IS250C. I think the Coupe is going to either be in the TL brand or a separate model (like the original CL).

97AcuraCL

any time frame for those models?

(Cj)

There all rumors as of now, but there's supposed to be a new model or engine every 6 months (but we don't know what the effect the economy has on those plans). All of these plans and rumors came before the economic crisis, so everything might be delayed

minkl81

iTrader: (2)

i clicked into this thread to see any new updates on the new engine option for upcoming tsx and only see bunch of out of topic debates from ssftsx vs. others AGAIN...

Colin

That is the big question mark. What chassis will they build this on. I know that they are not eager to do another CL (ie FWD). I just hope for the love of all things Honda that they don't point at the upcoming X6 fighter and say "there's your coupe"

[R]isque'

Man, you guys are full of crap.....

LuvMyTSX

That would certainly disappoint and piss off a lot of people.

cmasterchoe

I don't think this issue was addressed (even though its older) so I thought i would put my

Honda Accord (US): EX-L V6 and EX-L (I4) with navigation are the same price. They wouldn't make the tech 4 cylinder be MORE expensive than the V6. The tech package 4 cylinder would probably be the same cost as the v6 base package. This is Honda's reasoning with the Accord and I suspect that they would do the same with the TSX.

2002Dawg

First, I agree that V6 TSX > no V6.

That said, if you can find one, go drive a 6MT TL (2004-2008). Try gunning it from a standstill and you'll feel the wheel pull left to right to left as the torque passes through the LSD. If you try to turn sharply (either left or right, from a dead stop) while accellerating, you will fight the steering wheel as the torque tries to pull the wheels back to center.

That said, the 5AT manages torque better because of (a) the gearing and (b) the ability for VSA to better dilute the engine's power in the first two gears.

The SH-AWD equipped RL exudes NONE of these traits. Trust me -- I tried it all when I had an RL as a loaner. SH-AWD is the only way to manage the output of Acura's excellent V6 engines, even more so when mated to a 6MT.

Please, good executives at Acura, bring me my TSX V6 SH-AWD 6MT Tech!

(Cj)

Sigh, that would be so typical of Acura...


I'm thinking cost would be a problem at that point. Take the TSX's price ($30K) add $3000 for the V6 upgrade, and $2000 for SH-AWD. You're left with a $35K TSX. The TL cost $35K...

That would be a marketing mistake and major overlap. I think the point of the TSX V6 is to be "cheaper" than the new TL and take the place of the old TL in the lineup. That means don't expect AWD. Just expect a V6 plus a LSD for about the same price as the old base TL ($33K).

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

^^ Even if a loaded tech V6 AWD model was 38k there is still a considerable price difference between that and a 44k AWD Tech TL.

CarbonGray Earl

IMO, its okay that Acura starts to overlap their models a bit. A loaded v6 AWD TSX might be more appealing than FWD base TL. There will be people who still want one car or the other, its just a matter of determining how many to make of each. That's not rocket science.

jiggaman

agreed

(Cj)

The problem is going to be cannibalization of the more profitable TL. Unless Honda decides to start manufacturing TSXs in NA, it's more profitable to sell more TLs than TSX. So yes it would be nice if Acura had a V6 SH-AWD TSX for $35K, but I don't know if that makes business sense for them. Also I don't know if they'd gain many or any sales from having 2 $35K V6 sedans. I could be wrong though. Anyway if Acura did manufacture the TSX in NA they could probably get the price of a V6 SH-AWD TSX down to $32 or 33 thousand and still make a fat profit .

wackura

I think there is a better than 50% chance it will be offered with AWD because I've noticed that while Acura doesn't meet the wishes of people like us who ask for a super car in online forums, they do address the negative car reviews. The 2G TSX seems to have fixed a lot of specific complaints reviews had made of the 1G TSX. The had said the design was bland, it lacked torque, the stereo didn't have mp3 capability, the back seat was too small, and some other things that seemed pointedly addresses.

The 3G TL was roundly ridiculed for torque steer. If the 2G TSX get a V6 it will effectively sit where the 3G TL used to be and the 2G TSX has a spot carved out for the AWD workings. Because torque steer was such a prominant complaint with the 3G TL I suspect that Acura won't offer a V6 TSX doomed to receive the same criticism.

SSFTSX

V6 TSX with or without SH-AWD is doomed from sales perspective with zero profit for Honda and possible exchange rate risk during transportation from Japan and waiting time on dealer lots.
There is very limited market for SH-AWD vehicles and will cannablize TL sales.
Car is 3500lbs with 4cylinder. 3800lb to 4000lbs is not out of question. Car will need 3.7L for decent performanc and economic. No one will jump to V6 with only 250-270bhp and 200lbs extra weight.
Anything less than 3.7L wont work as it will become slower than 4cylinder Lexus hybrid or 2.0T A4.
There is no new transmission for Auto.
Just look at 4cylinder prices. People are negotiating below $30K. Same will happen to V6 model with more deeper price cut.
Honda has a choice of creating deisel or hybrid model and create alternative market but they dont have technology or investment to jump the hurdle.

(Cj)

People are gonna buy it even with only 250 hp. Most people don't research the curb weight or how many additional pounds is added buy the addition of a V6 and an extensive AWD system. All they look at is HP and EPA. If it has 250 hp and decent gas mileage and AWD it'll steal plenty of sales from the 328ix, IS250AWD, A4 2.0T Quattro, and C300 4matic. If it doesn't have AWD it'll be competing as the underdog (especially against the G37), but should still sell well.

dom

Hate to bring this back up and I'm not denying it was an issue but I don't recall seeing the issue brought up in TL reviews and comparisons. and even if it was, they sold 6-7K TL's a month (better times I know) with all that torque steer. It should not be an issue (sales/marketing wise) with a V6 TSX.

wackura

Broad precedent doesn't hold water with SSFTSX. He's convinced that once consumers look at the technical specs sheets and crunch lbs to bhp ratios and factor for mpg they will head straight to the Lexus dealer and by one of their products, such as the environment friendly V8 equipped LS.

wackura

If you google "Acura TL review torque steer -2009" you can see that the tendency is to see things like "torque steer takes over and the car darts off in whichever direction it chooses" much more so than comments like "suprisingly, torque steer isn't an issue."

Even if a V6 TSX would sell well with FWD I notice that Honda has made an effort to buck the most pointed criticisms of their vehicles. I don't think they want to see a repeat of those old negative reviews. Reviews of the FWD 2009 TL note that somehow they have found ways to mask torque steer with gearing tricks in the automatic transmission. They might do something like that but I'm still puting my chips on AWD seeing as there's room for it and it's a great selling point.