Colin

Heh, I've sometimes noticed that price is occasionally a consideration. Especially for those of us who actually pay for our cars ourselves.

dom

Again, not saying it was never mentioned, just never mentioned as reason to avoid buying the car.

The base 09 TL is actually a great reason why I think it will only be offered in FWD. They still have a FWD V6 TL.

If we're making guesses I'm going with SH-AWD NOT being offered.

wackura

Well they never would advise against buying outright on account of torque steer because it's not a race car, it's a daily driver with balls. More the point people who buy BMWs and other RWD luxury sedans don't have to deal with it so why should Acura customers?

CarbonGray Earl

Agreed, but unfortunately that's the game you play with european luxury cars; choice in engine and equipment level creates overlap but are par for the course. what it depends on is how well can Acura predict demand and determine the right price point.

The key question for me is, how many buyers want a TSX v6 and not a TL and how many of those are deciding between both. Obviously there will be overlap, but I don't think its a 1 for 1 relationship. I think there are alot of people that would buy a TSX v6 regardless of the TL, and additionally I think there alot of buyers that it would bring into the fold that would have not otherwise considered Acura.

Additionally, being a "gateway" car for the brand, it might pay long term to get the young aspirational demographic into Acura's as their first career car. If it steals buyers that would have otherwise went to BMW, Benz, Infiniti, Audi, Volvo, Saab, etc, then the better. But for these image conscious people to even consider Acura, you need to have more than an i4 or turbo, especially if styling isn't a calling card.


Of course, I'd follow all that up with "but what do I know". I'd love for Acura to have a v6 TSX for the sake of having one. Cannibalization be damned, i think it would pay off in the long run.

SSFTSX

Weak V6 engine with heavier Curb weight is fuel economy disaster on freeway and add SH-AWD on top of it is another RL in making.
IS-250AWD is very light car for AWD. as it only weight 3650 lbs but its freeway economic is worse than ES-350. So no one choses IS-250AWD. Its failure. (It has 6speed auto advantage)
Only A4 2.0T has successfully met Fuel economic/performance from AWD.

dom

I agree. But at this point as a potential Acura customer I'd rather deal with tourque steer than having to do deal with what I think is an underpowered car.

LukeaTron

I beg to differ. Those things are like flies on crap around me. Seriously, I easily see 10 awd IS-250s a day. Of those 10, 1 will be rwd. I've only ever seen 1 350 on the road. The awd variant of that car is by far the most successful from what I've seen.

wackura

I take issue with the notion that Toyota can do wrong.

(Cj)

You bring up great points . Your key question is the same thing I'm thinking. What's really going to be interesting is if SH-AWD is standard on the V6 model. If it is a LOT of people would choose the AWD TSX over the FWD TL especially if their the same price. AWD is the most popular feature on luxury sedans and a lot of consumers (and enthusiast alike) prefer AWD over FWD even if it has slightly less power and fuel economy.


But if it doesn't have AWD it'll pretty much just be a tossup between a FWD TL and a FWD TSX (but the price would be a few thousand lower). At that point I think more people would up for the TL instead of the TSX.


And I completely agree with you about the entry and gateway. I think one reason why Infiniti, BMW, and Lexus do well is because they have very strong entry level products. Acura on the other hand has the 201 hp TSX (which reviewers haven't been too kind to). The TSX was a fine entry level car when it came out in 03 and I'm sure a lot of those people are going to stay in the fold, but in 2009 the competitions very stiff. Adding a V6 is gonna help the TSX get more street cred and hopefully a younger demographic (all of the 09s I've seen are driven by middle aged individuals, likely because it's a sensible choice).


I think if the TSX had SH-AWD the IS250AWD would be it's primary competitor. As you said the IS250AWD isn't great, so Acura doesn't really have to try to hard to trump them. I don't think an AWD TSX would be a disaster like the RL. An AWD TSX would cost likely $10K less. The RL's problem is it's too small to be a flagship and too big to be a midship and it doesn't have a V8 which adds to the problem.

(Cj)

Can we have a poll

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Because the reality is that most people never mash the throttle from a stop with the VSA system turned off. The average driver will not drive the car hard enough to experience the supposed "rampant" torque steer of cars like the TL and a V6 TSX. Trust me, I have a 3G TL-S now and quite frankly, the reports of torque steer have been greatly exaggerated.

wackura

I can't - cannot - go full throtle in the midst of a mild turn and not be bothered by the torque steer. It's not cool, it feels like the car is punishing me for daring to live. It's saying "if you're going to act like a kid I'm going to flail the steering wheel around just to scare you." It's fast enough for my taste, but lately I'm longing for a car that both goes fast, and feels like it was designed to do so.

LukeaTron

Maybe it's because I've only ever owned FWD cars but dealing with torque steer has never been much of an inconvenience to me. Yeah it's nicer when it's not there but I've never come close to getting myself in trouble from it. I never think of it as fighting the car, rather, I look at it as fighting the pavement. That's probably a result of riding motorcycles.

SSFTSX

GS350 RWD has same EPA ratings as IS250AWD. and GS350 is heavier car with bigger frontal area with large capacity engine. AWD tax the fuel economy very hard. AWD V6 TSX likely will be very heavier than IS250AWD. as IS250RWD drive is lighter than 4cylinder TSX. Acura does not even have 6speed auto. Ur looking at car giving worse fuel economic than RL with current technologies with performance worse than 4 cylinder.
And it wont be cheap. $40K is minimum with tech package/SH-AWD/V6 for 2010. and $40K most people rather have A4 2.0T with Prestige package.(18inch standard).

LukeaTron

Tell us more about how Toyota will own our souls oh Great Oracle.

dom

How will it have worse MPG than an RL it weighs less than?

And less performance than the 4 which it will likely out power by 50+ HP and 70+ lb-ft?

Do you really think Acura would release a V6 TSX with less performance than the 4?

CarbonGray Earl

FWD torque steer isn't so bad a thing to contend with provided the manufacturer does things to negate it in 90% of situations or the driver understands the difference and adjusts accordingly.

While I think driving a RWD BMW 3 is sublime (had one in college), I don't have any problem with the little torque steer that we have in the TSX. A v6 might change that, but from all the Acura/Honda FWD cars I've driven, I've learned to adjust my driving to account for a little understeer, and numbness off of mid corner bumps, and aggressive take offs that spin the tires a bit.

Maybe they'll put in launch control?

SSFTSX

Which car will be faster 201lbs 3500lbs or 250bhp propelling 3800lbs?. It is not just weight difference but inherent efficiencies in AWD system. Under power car will give economic like RL with AWD system. so at the end it will need 280 to 300 bhp engine.

LukeaTron

I don't understand what you're trying to say at all. I hope english is not your first language.

Colin

It's not, but that doesn't excuse everything.

dom

Throw out any specs you like, the 4 will not outperform the 6. Think before you type.

Colin

Exactly, the results in Speed World Challenge speak for themselves. FWD vs. RWD doesn't make a huge difference at the track. You change the way you come on the throttle, but you also brake differently. Mild braking into the turn will lighten the back and let the tail rotate. (VSA off please) With changes to driving style, FWD can be the equal of RWD in many cases. Is RWD more fun? Yeah, probably, but this is different than fast laps.

JD23

I'm confused too. Why will a SH-AWD TSX have worse mileage than a SH-AWD TL? Although the TL doesn't get wonderful mileage, it is certainly not a "mileage disaster."

LuvMyTSX

IS250 AWDs are all I ever see around me. Failure? I don't think so.

NVMYT

In its first full month of sales, the all-new 2009 Acura TSX posted its best month in the model's history with 4,564 units sold- topping the previous mark of 3,911 set in April of 2006. So strong are TSX sales that for the first time ever, it topped the monthly sales of TL and MDX. Acura sales for May were 14,893 units, down 9.9 percent based on Daily Selling Rate* while year-to-date sales totaled 65,458 units, down 13.8 percent compared to 2007.

"Even the luxury market appears to be taking a hard look at high fuel prices," said Dick Colliver, executive vice president of Acura sales. "Record sales of the all-new 2009 TSX indicate that its combination of a powerful and efficient i-VTEC® 4-cylinder engine, bold styling and Acura's trademark driving character are what the market desires."

Eclipsing the previous best-ever TSX monthly sales record by 16.7 percent and shattering the previous May total by 53.7 percent, the totally redesigned 2009 TSX is proving popular right off the start. The all-new 2009 TSX is larger, more agile and more luxurious than ever before, raising the standards significantly for Acura's entry-level sedan. Major advances in handling, interior comfort, customer-relevant technology and safety features all contribute to the new TSX's appeal. Moreover, the TSX's improvements in fuel economy, along with a reduction in emissions are especially important considering today's high fuel prices. Strong initial sales of the 2009 TSX indicate that smart packaging and good fuel economy are of increasing importance to consumers.
The second-best selling Acura model in May was the TL performance luxury sedan, with 4,294 units. In addition, Acura light-truck sales for the MDX luxury SUV were 4,277 units, while the turbocharged RDX crossover SUV sold 1,368 units.

LukeaTron

Um, ok. The fact remains there is still a price/performance gap between the TSX and TL that a v6 TSX could slide right into. It would probably take some sales from the 4 cylinder and possibly even more from the TL but it's never going to be a high volume model. I don't understand how the article you're quoting suggests there is no room for the V6 variant.

CarbonGray Earl

^^I agree. I don't get the point of the title of that post. Where does it say no V6? Its not even implied.

wackura

He should have titles his post THE RL TL RDX AND MDX WILL BE DISCONTINUED!

(Cj)

The current 2WD TSX gets better efficiency than the IS250 2WD. That is mostly attributable to the fact that the IS has two more cylinders, but I think both V6 AWD models should be close in economy. The TL SH-AWD has better economy than the RL and the new TSX SH-AWD should weigh in at about 100 lbs lighter than the TL SH-AWD. At worse it's economy will match the TL's but I think it might have a few more miles on the highway. And if the rumor is true, the V6 TSX might get VCM which improves efficiency by about 10% which is significant enough to bring the efficiency pretty close to the I4 (calculate the TL's mileage +10%).


As far as performance look at the TL. The SH-AWD model matches the FWD model's performance with 25 more hp and 19 more ft lbs of torque. The TSX SH-AWD (if it gets the Pilot's engine as rumored) will have 49 more hp and a whopping 81 ft lbs more torque. That will more than offset the additional weight and parasitic losses from the AWD system.


The price won't be $40+K. It'll probably be more like $37K for a loaded model which is still pretty high. At that price it will be competing against more than just the A4. At that price the competition is very fierce and stiff, and my hope is that Acura delivers.

wackura

A V6 AWD TSX for around $37k would be perfectly competitive. I think it would be a few hairs cheaper than that though.

LukeaTron

We should get a betting pool going on where the price will fall. I'm saying $35,750.

NVMYT

It's rather obvious to ME why there is no room for a V6 TSX. The TSX is designed for a certain segment of people that want a luxury vehicle, but are also concerned about economy. While the TL is designed for the more POWER motivated segment. So economically, there is no room for a V6 TSX. I quoted the article because Acura’s top executives say that “the TSX's improvements in fuel economy, along with a reduction in emissions are especially important considering today's high fuel prices. Strong initial sales of the 2009 TSX indicate that smart packaging and good fuel economy are of increasing importance to consumers”. So why would Acura attempt to FIX what’s not broken…especially in the same year it debuts?? The quick answer is they wouldn’t. The TSX has become Acura’s best selling vehicle, while the TL is the second best and I think that’s because people know gas will certainly creep back up and some folks are definitely concerned about paying $300 a month for gas. If you think Acura would add a V6 to the TSX, then you think they would put a V6 in the RDX as well. If you walk onto an Acura lot and you look at the TSX, but you think it needs more power, then Acura has taken care of you by designing the TL. If you think the TL is not refined enough, then they have gone a step further offering you the RL. Same thing applies with the RDX and the MDX. Hey, I’m not here trying to bag anyone, but I see some folks are here to bag on me… wackura, thanks for the comment. Good thing I don’t take anything personal…by the way, you should have written “titled” his post and not “titles” his post…funny. Again, nothing personal!

SSFTSX

Lexus IS 250 is 21/29 according EPA. TSX is 21/30 but you have to consider that you are comparing 2006 model year car with 2009. There is every reason to beleive that competitors will update cars for 2011 form Audi to Lexus in base form. Honda simply cannot afford to update cars every year. Compeition is ahead now.
Honda VCM is worthless technology. The key word is TL has similar output RL so combined with lighter weight. it achieves a 1 mile better on city cycle. but TSX SH-AWD is much heaver beast than V6 USDM Accord. More in TL weight category. So that combined with lower power engine will come out with worse fuel economic than TL-SH-AWD.



That is your belief that 50 hp can overcome additional weight due to V6 and SH-AWD. In TL case it is only the SH-AWD weight not extra V6 weight. So there are two things going on TSX weight.

Why wont it be $40K?. Even North American built RDX costs $38K for 2009 and that is without V6. Even IS 250AWD starts for $35K in 2009 model year. Here we are talking about limited quantity 2010 model year car. which has no utility outside US.

LukeaTron

To NVMYT:
You are very rapidly getting on my (and others' I'm sure) nerves.

I still don't understand where you get from that article that there's not room for a V6. Yes the I4 TSX is selling well and yes, fuel efficiency is a very high concern for a lot of purchasers. However, there is a segment of the population - very well represented on this board I might add - which would gladly sacrifice a dollop of fuel for a touch more performance. The base TL does not offer much of that other than pure low end grunt. The TSX is a significantly more nimble chassis. Furthermore, the nearest available AWD sedan in Acura's lineup (TL Type-S) is quite a big step up in price.

I assure you there is a market for V6 AWD TSX at price point between TSX and TL Type-S. It isn't going knock either the TL or TSX off their current pedestals but it would certainly sell. Acura will just have to make sure they get the volume right.

CarbonGray Earl

wackura

I'll say $36,750 for V6 w/ SH-AWD and $34,500 for V6 FWD

NVMYT

[QUOTE=LukeaTron;10450914]To NVMYT:
You are very rapidly getting on my (and others' I'm sure) nerves.

Oh my goodness...I'm getting on your nerves?! Now that's funny

Now, it's clear why you don't understand why economically this would NOT be a smart move for Acura. Sure there are folks that would enjoy driving a V6 TSX, but Acura is currently hitting both segments with the TSX and the TL. To put a V6 in the TSX would mean losing sales/money on the TL, so I guess you're saying Acura should offer the TSX in the 4 and 6 cylinder and discontinue the TL altogether...however, I'll end my posting now from FEAR of further getting on your nerves! Geez...you crack me up!

Colin

I'll say Base V-6 TSX is 32,460 w/dest. Tech package is 35,360. I hope I'm wrong but I predict no AWD.

SSFTSX

so that SH-AWD will include 18inch rims in price?

wackura

No matter how many times you tell SSFTSX or NVMYT about the IS350 / ES350 analog they keep on insisting Acura is incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.