wackura

who the fuck cares?

Colin

This holds true if you don't think that HMC is losing that 30-35K V6 customer to other brands. V-6 Accords top out at 31K and TLs start at almost 36K. A V6 TSX could fill this gap.

SSFTSX

Acura do cares. RDX/MDX/TL/RL are all now on 18inch for SH-AWD.

wackura

The V6 equipped ES350 MSRP is $34,320 with a real world price of $32,500. Acura has a hole punched in its lineup and you can see a Lexus dealer on the othe side.

SSFTSX

It is american refined Camry. If it was that easy why would Honda built factories in Thailand/China/Philipines with all these parts transportation costs and worker training/management problems. They could have done every thing inside Japan. I am sure Robots of today are much more advanced than of 90s.
You are trying to find Japanese solution to American market problem.

HeavyDuty

I've pretty much stayed out of this, and I may not be adding anything with this post, but I think a V6 TSX is redundant when the TL fits that bill. Evidently the turbo 4 is off for the TSX, and I think that's a shame for the engine is already developed. It seemed to be a natural to me whether it be FWD or AWD.

If I wanted a V6 I would have bought a TL. Honda has a 4 & a 6 in the Accord and they're fine, but they also don't have a TL or RL upline product.

wackura

By that same logic the RL fit's the TL's bill. Why does the TL exist?

(Cj)

The IS250 will probably get an update, but I don't think it's mileage will improve that much considering Lexus will have the HS250 now (for those that really want mileage). Audi probably won't update the 2.0T in 2011. I think there going to be adding a diesel?


VCM isn't "worthless". It improves EPA mileage by about 10%. Even on the very heavy Pilot SUV (meaning that although the TSX weighs more than Accord I'm confident if it had VCM it's mileage would be 10% improved over TL). If it doesn't have VCM and it's a regulare V6, I still don't think that it's EPA would be lower than TL. A SH-AWD TSX would weigh about 100 lbs less than the TL SH-AWD. I think at worst they're gas mileage will match.


You're right, I didn't take into account the extra weight of the V6 but lets look at it this way. Let's say the V6 SH-AWD TSX is 400 lbs heavier than the I4 FWD model. That brings it up to about 3870 lbs. That's 11.5% more weight over the I4 model. So lets say it has 49 more horsepower bringing it up to 250 hp. That's 24.4% more horsepower. So the horsepower gain more than offsets the weight gain, and that doesn't even take into account the possible 47% increase in torque.

The RDX has a unique engine not used in any other Honda or Acura product around the globe. Very limited production meaning higher price. The TSX is gonna use an already widely used engine that's already been made in Japan before.

JD23

I wonder how many times people have to stress that there is indeed a market for a V6 TSX with or without SH-AWD because not everyone wants a 195 in. long sedan. I think quite a few people want a smaller, more nimble sedan with the low end power provided by a V6. Infiniti is capable of offering both a M and G series, which are even closer in size than the TSX and TL.

dom

For the 30th time.....

Every other luxury make offers multiple engine options in their variety of cars. And, god forbid even THE SAME engines in lesser models.

Acura is the only one not doing this.

SSFTSX

It is more likely that IS250 will get performance boost and fuel economic with new 8 speed Auto. HS250 is both performance and fuel economic boost over IS250. To keep IS250 edge in performance. expect its upgrade with in a year.
Audi already has 270 bhp 2.0 TFSI. It is just matter of time it migrates to A4. And with thatk kind of turbo. Only 350 bhp TSX can match. and offcourse Audi will have superior fuel economic.


There is only 1mpg difference between Camry and Accord on EPA cycle. It is hardly 3% difference. You can check various tests of Accord V6 and Camry V6. Camry beats it in performance and fuel economic.

It is not linear relationship. AWD IS is only 5% heaver than RWD IS but 10% poor performance. TSX already have poor economic with 4 cylinder. V6 SH-AWD will be in TL/RL class in economic.

It is not unique engine. It is turbo bolt on. which usually cost $3K

SSFTSX

TL is cheapr than RL despite having 19inch wheel option.
and TL primary market is US. RL primary market is EU/Asia. There is no guarantee that TSX will be cheaper than TL for same market.

dom

I now fully understand why you guys can't stand this guy.

wackura

You live in a bizarre universe where adding V6 SH-AWD adds $8,000 to the price tag and 1,000 lbs to the car. The rest of us live in reality and see many other car companies offering V6 trims with few such problems.

CarbonGray Earl

I had him on my ignore list, but I might just add him back for the fun of it.

LukeaTron

Allow me to paraphrase for you.

Toyota and Audi engineers have advanced degrees in sorcery. The next generation of their vehicles will magically shed 50% of their weight, add 300% more power and go 500 miles on 2 gallons of gas. They will do this at a price competitive with your average tricycle. Honda engineers on the other hand are only slightly smarter than road kill. They will just take the current generation of their vehicles, cram a circa 1930 v6 under the hood and chain a 1,500 pound boulder to the bumper. This boulder is very expensive unfortunately and will raise the sticker price by about $10,000 dollars. We stupid Americans will then buy the hell out of that car while the rest of the world laughs at us. Luckily we are too dense to notice.

SSFTSX can either see perfectly into the future or is simply foretelling prophecy that the universe has no choice but to obey. I haven't quite figured out which one it is yet.

CarbonGray Earl

Colin

Heh, in his world, he's probably wondering why he can't get through to us! [SSF to himself] "I keep saying the same thing over and over again, but they don't understand" "It must be my Engrish" [?SSF to himself]

SSFTSX

so do you think V6/SH-AWD/18inch (Acura Standard) will not add $8K for 2010 model year?. yes they are offering V6 like in IS250AWD/IS350/G37.
but there
prices are way above $40K for loaded 2009 model year. Dont compare US built cars with Japanese built car prices.

dom

You're right. I'm thinking 50K for a V6 TSX. But it will have 14" wheels. 18's may push it to 60.

LukeaTron

Yeah I heard that extra inch of wheel spoke is going to be solid 24k gold.

wackura

lolooollllzlzlzzz!!!

(Cj)

I don't think the next IS250 will get the 8 speed auto. I think that transmission is only for V8 Lexus (unless that's about to change and I don't know about it). So with 6 speed auto and similar displacement to the current one the next gen will probably only have a very modest increase in power and possibly a decrease in economy (but if Lexus ups displacement and makes the next one the IS300 the decrease in economy might be even more severe).

From the different rumors I've read concerning the high output 270 hp 2.0T thats going to replace the already $40+K V6 A4, not the base A4 (which is more inline with a V6 TSX's price). You're right that unless the TSX gets forced induction it likely won't match the high output 2.0T. But that'll be the TL's job, and I'm hoping that the next Type S (if there even is one) has forced induction or a V8 (I know very unlikely).

You're right that the Camry normally beats the Accord in real world driving, but we were talking about EPA. I think if the TSX had VCM, it would get a very good highly competitive rating on the EPA system. If the TSX V6 does have VCM and gets a 10% increase in fuel economy over the TL SH-AWD (like the accord has a 10% increase and the Pilot) we're looking at about 19/27 (or 28 if you round up). That's nearly as good as the I4 TSX.

Yeah, I kinda agreed that at worse a TSX V6 AWD would match the TL's efficiency especially if it doesn't have VCM. But that's still pretty competitive for the class so it's not a bad thing.

$3K is a good bit of money if you ask me. Especially since it's not ordered en masse since the RDX is pretty limited production. Compare that with a V6 that's offered on many many Honda/Acuras globally. So if it is $3K that's about 9% of the MSRP of the base non tech RDX. That's a pretty good chunk of the cost.

(Cj)

SSFTSX

There is comparision test at Edmunds between IS350/BMW-335. IS-350 achieved 22mpg. The same as TSX Auto on edmunds test.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...3/pageNumber=7
So how can newer IS-250 will be worse than IS-350?. Fact of point. ES-350 is better than TL and both are FWD.
That V6 will be replaced by Supercharge V6 S4. and and than twin turbo RS-4 is beyond that. 2.0T will remain in single output form.

Problem is Camry is two year older than Accord has one mile highway difference. so whats the point of VCM when Camry routinely beats in Fuel economic. 19/27 only ES-350 achieves which is lighter car than V6 TSX would be.

How it is competitive. against its 2010 lineup.

$3k is big money but it is not big in production costs between Japan/US. V6 is offered in many models but it does not make TSX cheaper or RL cheaper.

HeavyDuty

I'm just a dumb country boy, but the TL is a little larger & currently offers a V6. The RL is larger still & if you need more rear legroom, plus it's the flagship & was already being produced overseas.

TSX 30k
TL 40k
RL 50k

Makes sense to me.

HeavyDuty

I don't consider Acura on the same plane as Lexus & Infiniti. (Mostly) RWD top shelf car? No. Nice, reliable, efficient, safe long lasting cars? Yes. I put more stock in the platform choices of RWD or FWD (not FWD with an added output & transfer case for the rear wheels.) If someone wants a teensy RWD 4, 6 or 8 cylinder RWD, let them buy an IS. (I'm just keeping this in the Japanese line of thought.) If you want FWD V6 & a little more room, buy an ES or TL. Like Acura but want something larger still & AWD? Get an RL because the LS is wayyy bigger & lots more expensive & RWD only.

I don't think the lack of a multitude of engine choices hurts them as much as some of you guys do.

Would I have chosen a V6 if offered when I bought my TSX? Maybe.

wackura

So you're familiar with price differences. You don't think a $35k TSX V6 has any particular distinction over a larger $42k TL?

valeratj

V6 TSX is pointless. Its an entry level luxury sedan and leave it there. Altho K23 would definitely be nice to have. Also, honda needs to fire its team of designers. Lets sign a petition for that !



http://www.mugen-power.com/street/accord/

Better check that out. I hope they will bring them over here

JeffS

Why is the V6 pointless in the TSX? I would much rather have a V6 over an unrefined, peaky, horrible sounding 4 banger, turbo or not, that will probably get the same gas mileage as a V6. The only V6 disadvantage is more weight over the front wheels.

SSFTSX

TSX is the most refined car in Acura line up. Check the Edmunds test data for NVH levels. It beats RL/TL. .

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tsx/2009/testdrive.html

valeratj

^ TSX does about 34-35 MPG highway with minor upgrades. V6 engines dont do that. 200HP is good enough for entry level lux sedan. yes its refined and feels cool bc of that relatively light 4 cyl engine. TSX also has lame speakers (1st gen), leather, new one has a knob for navi. It isnt perfect but u get what u pay for. If u want a better car, buy a better car

CarbonGray Earl

^^but there is room in the market for a better TSX. There plenty more pointless cars. The first time honda put a v6 in an accord, there was an outcry, but look where it is now. You guys are acting like its going to take all the sales away from the TL, like its going to have the gas mileage of a tractor trailer, and its going to add $10000. BS.

Model variety isn't a bad thing. There are people that want a v6 in the TSX and absolutely not the TL. There are people that would love to see a j-series in a chassis that sure as heck can handle it.

Its as if you guys are running honda. Ladies and gentlemen, we are the consumers. Why wouldn't you want choice for your fellow car buyer? Its almost unamerican the way some of you trying to slot people into having to get a TL to get a v6. People have wanted a v6 in it since gen 1 (some of you weren't around), car rags have wanted at least 20 more hp and thought the chassis could handle more very well. Let the model progress.

Who gives a rats ass what Lexus does. Who gives a rat's ass if it takes away from the TL (hey, make less TLs; crazy huh?). Acura can make a TSX with a v6 without breaking the bank, especially if they start testing the market in small quantities.....as they always do. A $35-40k entry level lux sedan isn't outside the realm of reality at all.

Colin

I'm 100% sure there is more profit margin in a US built TL than the TSX. This would be one reason why they are reluctant to cannibalize TL sales. I agree for the most part, I just contend that they need to fill the $30k-$35k gap and not a $35k-$40k gap.

valeratj

do u even understand what u r saying? the only reason why TSX can handle and feels nimble is bc of that 4 cyl engine. Heavy J-series will destroy both handling and feel. V6 accord is what its gonna feel like

valeratj

+1

dom

I think thats exactly what Acura is trying to change.

CarbonGray Earl

Let's get this straight....You think Acura or honda can't perform the necessary suspension tuning to make the TSX nimble enough to accomodate a v6.
-When Mazda gets glowing reviews for their mazda6 with a v6 in it
-When Honda themselves has gotten glowing reviews for their Accord (previous gen or this gen)
-or even in the Acura family, who's TL-S has gotten great reviews for handling. Enough to beat out a RWD foes in a rag comparo.

You're going to tell me that they can't engineer a v6 into this platform? Don't deny Honda's expertise; they can do it.

Besides, we aren't talking about OUR tsx, valertj. A new TSX is larger, and more stable. The size of the old TL, right? That old TL already has a J-series engine in it, and as I've said before, its got great reviews. So its been done before with great results.

dom

^

CarbonGray Earl

I do, in fact believe this. Its an unfortunate consequence, however, the trade offs are a bit more complex than just the TL sales cannibalization.

I argue that, while you may get customers that decide to get a TSX, you also get new customers who never wanted a TL or a i4 TSX. You may get the folks that wanted an Accord v6 to step up. Make it in small quantities to test the waters and squeeze demand a bit. It may be a loss leader of sorts, but this sort of move by Acura/Honda isn't unprecedented.

Granted, this may not be the best environment to introduce a small volume one-off of a successful car with an admired formula, but this might be just the move Acura needs to make to step up to tier 1 and make their entry level product more competitive with the 3, g35, etc on things other than value.