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Hockey: News and Discussion Thread
05-23-2013, 07:43 AM
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TOUCHDOWN!
05-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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05-23-2013, 10:53 AM
Interesting read on the Red Wings drafting and player development approach.
Link
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Originally Posted by National Post
DETROIT — There is something vaguely unfair about the Detroit Red Wings.
The lineup they iced for Game 3 of their Western semi-final series against Chicago on Monday night had 15 players who were either their own draft picks or who were Red Wings’ property before anyone else got them.
That’s 15 out of 20, and if forward Darren Helm and defenceman Danny Dekeyser were healthy, the number would be higher.
This, despite having not had a top-10 pick in the draft since 1991 (Marty Lapointe), and only two inside the top 20 in the 22 seasons since then — in each of which, by the way, the Wings have made the playoffs.
Oh, and just to rub it in a little, the Wings’ system includes the NCAA college defencemen of the year in the CCHA (DeKeyser), WCHA (Nick Jensen), and the top defenceman in the Canadian Hockey League (Ryan Sproule) and one of the QMJHL’s two or three best rearguards, Xavier Ouellet.
And a kid in Sweden, Mattias Backman, who was Minnesota Wild rookie sensation Jonas Brodin’s defence partner in the 2011-12 world junior and looks to the Wings’ chief European scout, Hakan Andersson, like the real deal.
“We’re trying to rebuild on the fly,” is how head coach Mike Babcock put it Wednesday, another off-day for the two teams prior to Game 4 Thursday at Joe Louis Arena. Trying?
Other teams try. The Red Wings just do it.
They do it with a scouting system that has left most other NHL clubs shaking their heads in wonder, a draft-and-develop philosophy that hasn’t changed in 20 years and a general manager, Ken Holland, who is pretty widely conceded to be about the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Having worked in Edmonton, Toronto and Vancouver over the past three decades, during which the locals’ draft picks have generally ranged from not quite mediocre to abysmal, it is frankly an eye-opening experience for a writer to sit down with Holland for a half-hour and listen to how the grown-ups do it.
“I’m not judging anyone else. Because in the ‘80s, we were trying to race guys in, too,” Holland says. “But all the good teams draft and develop. Our philosophy is: you’re going to the American Hockey League, and you’re going to learn how to play.
“I’m lucky. We’re lucky. Most people when they become a manager, they take over bad teams. I got to take over the Stanley Cup champs. I took over the team of Steve Yzerman, of Sergei Fedorov, of Nick Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan …”
He’s been lucky, too, with draft picks, he says. If the Red Wings had known, for instance, that Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg would turn out to be superstars, they wouldn’t have waited until the sixth and seventh rounds, respectively, to take them.
I’m lucky. We’re lucky. Most people when they become a manager, they take over bad teams. I got to take over the Stanley Cup champs
But they knew something. And methinks Holland doth protest too much. The Wings are a lot more than lucky. They’ve had much the same scouting staff together since the early 1990s — Joe McDonnell, Andersson, Bruce Haralson, Mark Leach — and those scouts have consistently produced gems from humble draft positions.
Losing Jim Nill, Holland’s former assistant GM who just became the Dallas Stars’ new manager, will leave a hole in the operation, but somehow, the Wings will fix it. They always do.
“How have we found these [players]? We’ve stuck to a philosophy,” said Holland.
“In ‘05, coming out of the work stoppage, going into a [salary] cap world, Jim Nill and I sat in the office going over the CBA, like everybody else did, and we made a decision that we had to be way more conservative on trade deadline day than we had been.
“We had traded eight first-round draft picks from ‘95 to ‘05 — Keith Primeau, who was a first, plus a first, for Paul Coffey. Anders Eriksson, who was a first and two more firsts for Chris Chelios. A first-round pick, Kozlov, for Dominik Hasek. We traded a first and [Tomas] Fleischman for Robert Lang. And we traded a first and somebody else for Mathieu Schneider.”
Since then, he said, “we’ve hung onto more picks, to get more spins at the wheel.”
The pillar of the Detroit system is patience. Holland admits it’s a luxury not every team can afford.
“We’ve had the good fortune to have good teams, so we’ve been able to have patience. We haven’t had to rush anybody into this team, until we thought they were actually ready to compete for a spot,” he said.
“I lived [the other side] it from ‘85 to ‘89 when our team wasn’t very good. We had the first pick in the draft my first year scouting, we picked Joe Murphy. We were under pressure at that time, we were racing kids in, and they can’t make a difference. The odd one might, but most don’t. So once we got the program going, probably in the early to mid-90s, we’ve never been under pressure to rush anybody.
“So having success has allowed us to have stability, which has allowed us to have one philosophy, which has allowed us to have a lot of people who have stayed here a long time. So when Jim Nill picked up the phone to talk to Hakan Andersson, they were speaking the same language.”
Holland, who was then the director of scouting, says he spent a lot of time with Andersson in the beginning, working through what the Red Wings were looking for.
“When we started to play puck possession in the mid-90s [under Scotty Bowman], and we won with it, there was this perception probably in ‘94-’95-’96: can you win with all those Europeans, can you win playing a European brand of hockey, which was puck possession instead of North American chip-it-in, chase, bang, crash, fight? But when we got over the hump, we’ve stuck with that philosophy.
“And we’ve only had three coaches in that time. Scotty Bowman, Dave Lewis and Mike Babcock.
The springboard to the Red Wing teams of the 1990s was the 1989 draft “when we drafted Mike Sillinger first, Bob Boughner second, Nick Lidstrom third, Sergei Fedorov fourth, Dallas Drake sixth and Vladimir Konstantinov 11th — so by 1992-93, out of that draft, added to Yzerman and the Bruise Brothers (Bob Probert and Joey Kocur), we had the core and were off and running.”
The post-Yzerman, post-Lidstrom era will present tougher challenges, Holland knows.
“We’ve got to figure out a way to draft lots of good pros, and they’ve gotta be guys we can develop into above-average NHL players and then hope one or two become better than we had hoped. I don’t believe we’re going to find another Zetterberg and Datsyuk. I hope we do,” he said, crossing his fingers, “but I think planning on it would be a bad plan.
“Would we like to bigger, would we like to be harder? Yeah. But it’s hard to address every need. Were trying to steer a little bit to get a little bit bigger, but the decisions you make at the draft come to fruition six or seven years later.
“If you look back over the last 10 years, those seasons when we lose in the first round, the critics would say, they’re not big enough, they’re not hard enough. And those years when we won the Stanley Cup like we did in ‘08, those same people would say, ‘Boy, they got a lot of talent.’
“At the end of the day, we’ve stuck to one philosophy. We like skill.”
And one or two other philosophies: like patience, and stability.
And, of course, winning. That’s the philosophy that makes the world go round.
The lineup they iced for Game 3 of their Western semi-final series against Chicago on Monday night had 15 players who were either their own draft picks or who were Red Wings’ property before anyone else got them.
That’s 15 out of 20, and if forward Darren Helm and defenceman Danny Dekeyser were healthy, the number would be higher.
This, despite having not had a top-10 pick in the draft since 1991 (Marty Lapointe), and only two inside the top 20 in the 22 seasons since then — in each of which, by the way, the Wings have made the playoffs.
Oh, and just to rub it in a little, the Wings’ system includes the NCAA college defencemen of the year in the CCHA (DeKeyser), WCHA (Nick Jensen), and the top defenceman in the Canadian Hockey League (Ryan Sproule) and one of the QMJHL’s two or three best rearguards, Xavier Ouellet.
And a kid in Sweden, Mattias Backman, who was Minnesota Wild rookie sensation Jonas Brodin’s defence partner in the 2011-12 world junior and looks to the Wings’ chief European scout, Hakan Andersson, like the real deal.
“We’re trying to rebuild on the fly,” is how head coach Mike Babcock put it Wednesday, another off-day for the two teams prior to Game 4 Thursday at Joe Louis Arena. Trying?
Other teams try. The Red Wings just do it.
They do it with a scouting system that has left most other NHL clubs shaking their heads in wonder, a draft-and-develop philosophy that hasn’t changed in 20 years and a general manager, Ken Holland, who is pretty widely conceded to be about the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Having worked in Edmonton, Toronto and Vancouver over the past three decades, during which the locals’ draft picks have generally ranged from not quite mediocre to abysmal, it is frankly an eye-opening experience for a writer to sit down with Holland for a half-hour and listen to how the grown-ups do it.
“I’m not judging anyone else. Because in the ‘80s, we were trying to race guys in, too,” Holland says. “But all the good teams draft and develop. Our philosophy is: you’re going to the American Hockey League, and you’re going to learn how to play.
“I’m lucky. We’re lucky. Most people when they become a manager, they take over bad teams. I got to take over the Stanley Cup champs. I took over the team of Steve Yzerman, of Sergei Fedorov, of Nick Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan …”
He’s been lucky, too, with draft picks, he says. If the Red Wings had known, for instance, that Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg would turn out to be superstars, they wouldn’t have waited until the sixth and seventh rounds, respectively, to take them.
I’m lucky. We’re lucky. Most people when they become a manager, they take over bad teams. I got to take over the Stanley Cup champs
But they knew something. And methinks Holland doth protest too much. The Wings are a lot more than lucky. They’ve had much the same scouting staff together since the early 1990s — Joe McDonnell, Andersson, Bruce Haralson, Mark Leach — and those scouts have consistently produced gems from humble draft positions.
Losing Jim Nill, Holland’s former assistant GM who just became the Dallas Stars’ new manager, will leave a hole in the operation, but somehow, the Wings will fix it. They always do.
“How have we found these [players]? We’ve stuck to a philosophy,” said Holland.
“In ‘05, coming out of the work stoppage, going into a [salary] cap world, Jim Nill and I sat in the office going over the CBA, like everybody else did, and we made a decision that we had to be way more conservative on trade deadline day than we had been.
“We had traded eight first-round draft picks from ‘95 to ‘05 — Keith Primeau, who was a first, plus a first, for Paul Coffey. Anders Eriksson, who was a first and two more firsts for Chris Chelios. A first-round pick, Kozlov, for Dominik Hasek. We traded a first and [Tomas] Fleischman for Robert Lang. And we traded a first and somebody else for Mathieu Schneider.”
Since then, he said, “we’ve hung onto more picks, to get more spins at the wheel.”
The pillar of the Detroit system is patience. Holland admits it’s a luxury not every team can afford.
“We’ve had the good fortune to have good teams, so we’ve been able to have patience. We haven’t had to rush anybody into this team, until we thought they were actually ready to compete for a spot,” he said.
“I lived [the other side] it from ‘85 to ‘89 when our team wasn’t very good. We had the first pick in the draft my first year scouting, we picked Joe Murphy. We were under pressure at that time, we were racing kids in, and they can’t make a difference. The odd one might, but most don’t. So once we got the program going, probably in the early to mid-90s, we’ve never been under pressure to rush anybody.
“So having success has allowed us to have stability, which has allowed us to have one philosophy, which has allowed us to have a lot of people who have stayed here a long time. So when Jim Nill picked up the phone to talk to Hakan Andersson, they were speaking the same language.”
Holland, who was then the director of scouting, says he spent a lot of time with Andersson in the beginning, working through what the Red Wings were looking for.
“When we started to play puck possession in the mid-90s [under Scotty Bowman], and we won with it, there was this perception probably in ‘94-’95-’96: can you win with all those Europeans, can you win playing a European brand of hockey, which was puck possession instead of North American chip-it-in, chase, bang, crash, fight? But when we got over the hump, we’ve stuck with that philosophy.
“And we’ve only had three coaches in that time. Scotty Bowman, Dave Lewis and Mike Babcock.
The springboard to the Red Wing teams of the 1990s was the 1989 draft “when we drafted Mike Sillinger first, Bob Boughner second, Nick Lidstrom third, Sergei Fedorov fourth, Dallas Drake sixth and Vladimir Konstantinov 11th — so by 1992-93, out of that draft, added to Yzerman and the Bruise Brothers (Bob Probert and Joey Kocur), we had the core and were off and running.”
The post-Yzerman, post-Lidstrom era will present tougher challenges, Holland knows.
“We’ve got to figure out a way to draft lots of good pros, and they’ve gotta be guys we can develop into above-average NHL players and then hope one or two become better than we had hoped. I don’t believe we’re going to find another Zetterberg and Datsyuk. I hope we do,” he said, crossing his fingers, “but I think planning on it would be a bad plan.
“Would we like to bigger, would we like to be harder? Yeah. But it’s hard to address every need. Were trying to steer a little bit to get a little bit bigger, but the decisions you make at the draft come to fruition six or seven years later.
“If you look back over the last 10 years, those seasons when we lose in the first round, the critics would say, they’re not big enough, they’re not hard enough. And those years when we won the Stanley Cup like we did in ‘08, those same people would say, ‘Boy, they got a lot of talent.’
“At the end of the day, we’ve stuck to one philosophy. We like skill.”
And one or two other philosophies: like patience, and stability.
And, of course, winning. That’s the philosophy that makes the world go round.
05-23-2013, 10:53 AM
The Rangers played a sloppy game, Boston played well. The score could have easily been 6-1 with the Ranger goalie being blameless.
W: Rask (23 SV)
L: Lundqvist (32 SV)
Based on save percentage the Rangers won.
You stay there in the wrong.
Even the not exactly Rangercentric announcers said Hank was the best player on the ice & that was the weirdest goal they had ever seen.
You won, get over it.
Thank god Richards is out.
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...imination-game
Brad Richards to be healthy scratch for Rangers in elimination game
The New York Rangers will take to the ice on Thursday in an elimanation game against the Boston Bruins. Their second-highest paid skater won't be joining them.
Brad Richards, who has had a very disappointing postseason so much so to the point that he had been demoted to the fourth line, has been demoted again. He will be a healthy scratch for Game 4, coach John Tortorella electing to keep Richards in the press box instead of glued to the bench.
This is as clear a sign yet that Richards and the Rangers aren't going to be seeing that massive contract all the way to the end. He is signed through the 2019-20 season for a cap hit of $6.67 million but he has been so underwhelming this season that the amnesty buyout talk had already begun. Now, if he's getting scratched in the playoffs, you have to assume it's only a formality he'll be bought out as soon as possible.
That said, this is not something that isn't deserved. Richards has been bad really this entire season, especially for what the expectations are of him. In 10 postseason game he has just one goal to show for his 14:43 ice time per game.
05-23-2013, 11:37 AM
Thought you were rooting for Boston.
05-23-2013, 11:42 AM
The sizzle in the Steak
Rags either die tonight, or prolong the inevitable for a bit longer.
Hawks in serious danger....they gotta prove they are the team they were all season.
Kings must win tonight, otherwise it will be over in 6 in San Jose.
Perhaps HUGE games is an understatement.
05-23-2013, 11:42 AM
The sizzle in the Steak
05-23-2013, 11:44 AM
05-23-2013, 11:50 AM
The sizzle in the Steak
Brad Richards healthy scratch...
What a mess!
What a mess!
05-23-2013, 11:54 AM
The sizzle in the Steak
Torts!The off season for the Rags could be a fun circus to watch.
05-23-2013, 11:54 AM
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05-23-2013, 02:38 PM
Trolling Canuckistan
Yes & there was an equivalence in the difficulty of the shots & the efficacy of the respective defenses????
The Rangers played a sloppy game, Boston played well. The score could have easily been 6-1 with the Ranger goalie being blameless.
W: Rask (23 SV)
L: Lundqvist (32 SV)
Based on save percentage the Rangers won.
You stay there in the wrong.
Even the not exactly Rangercentric announcers said Hank was the best player on the ice & that was the weirdest goal they had ever seen.
You won, get over it.
Thank god Richards is out.
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...imination-game
Brad Richards to be healthy scratch for Rangers in elimination game
The New York Rangers will take to the ice on Thursday in an elimanation game against the Boston Bruins. Their second-highest paid skater won't be joining them.
Brad Richards, who has had a very disappointing postseason so much so to the point that he had been demoted to the fourth line, has been demoted again. He will be a healthy scratch for Game 4, coach John Tortorella electing to keep Richards in the press box instead of glued to the bench.
This is as clear a sign yet that Richards and the Rangers aren't going to be seeing that massive contract all the way to the end. He is signed through the 2019-20 season for a cap hit of $6.67 million but he has been so underwhelming this season that the amnesty buyout talk had already begun. Now, if he's getting scratched in the playoffs, you have to assume it's only a formality he'll be bought out as soon as possible.
That said, this is not something that isn't deserved. Richards has been bad really this entire season, especially for what the expectations are of him. In 10 postseason game he has just one goal to show for his 14:43 ice time per game.
The Rangers played a sloppy game, Boston played well. The score could have easily been 6-1 with the Ranger goalie being blameless.
W: Rask (23 SV)
L: Lundqvist (32 SV)
Based on save percentage the Rangers won.
You stay there in the wrong.
Even the not exactly Rangercentric announcers said Hank was the best player on the ice & that was the weirdest goal they had ever seen.
You won, get over it.
Thank god Richards is out.
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...imination-game
Brad Richards to be healthy scratch for Rangers in elimination game
The New York Rangers will take to the ice on Thursday in an elimanation game against the Boston Bruins. Their second-highest paid skater won't be joining them.
Brad Richards, who has had a very disappointing postseason so much so to the point that he had been demoted to the fourth line, has been demoted again. He will be a healthy scratch for Game 4, coach John Tortorella electing to keep Richards in the press box instead of glued to the bench.
This is as clear a sign yet that Richards and the Rangers aren't going to be seeing that massive contract all the way to the end. He is signed through the 2019-20 season for a cap hit of $6.67 million but he has been so underwhelming this season that the amnesty buyout talk had already begun. Now, if he's getting scratched in the playoffs, you have to assume it's only a formality he'll be bought out as soon as possible.
That said, this is not something that isn't deserved. Richards has been bad really this entire season, especially for what the expectations are of him. In 10 postseason game he has just one goal to show for his 14:43 ice time per game.
Based on save percentage the rangers won? Do you understand this game? Based on goals against, the Bruins won and that's how they actually determine the winner of games.
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97BlackAckCL (05-23-2013)
05-23-2013, 02:45 PM
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2019-20 season for Richards
05-23-2013, 03:09 PM
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Who?
05-23-2013, 05:31 PM
You are a poor winner. I know the Rangers are done, I will happier than normal to root for whoever is beating Boston.
Go to the Garden tonight and ask.
Last edited by e30cabrio; 05-23-2013 at 05:35 PM.
05-23-2013, 05:53 PM
Trolling Canuckistan
You made the comparison that Rask had an equivalent game. Did he make 32 saves? Did he get peppered and fight off numerous breakaways?
You are a poor winner. I know the Rangers are done, I will happier than normal to root for whoever is beating Boston.
Go to the Garden tonight and ask.
You are a poor winner. I know the Rangers are done, I will happier than normal to root for whoever is beating Boston.
Go to the Garden tonight and ask.
You can't claim to outplay everyone on the ice and lose. You can put out a great effort and lose and maybe even deserved a win but the fact remains that he failed to steal the game like great goaltenders can.
His counterpart in Tuukka Rask stopped every shot he faced but 1, Lundquist stopped every shot he faced but 2.
I'm not saying Lundquist is a bad goaltender but he didn't outplay everyone. He was beaten 2 times by the team he faced so that team collectively outplayed him.
05-23-2013, 05:57 PM
Rose colored glasses, you are a poor loser becoming an even poorer one making ridiculous arguments.
You can't claim to outplay everyone on the ice and lose. You can put out a great effort and lose and maybe even deserved a win but the fact remains that he failed to steal the game like great goaltenders can.
His counterpart in Tuukka Rask stopped every shot he faced but 1, Lundquist stopped every shot he faced but 2.
I'm not saying Lundquist is a bad goaltender but he didn't outplay everyone. He was beaten 2 times by the team he faced so that team collectively outplayed him.
You can't claim to outplay everyone on the ice and lose. You can put out a great effort and lose and maybe even deserved a win but the fact remains that he failed to steal the game like great goaltenders can.
His counterpart in Tuukka Rask stopped every shot he faced but 1, Lundquist stopped every shot he faced but 2.
I'm not saying Lundquist is a bad goaltender but he didn't outplay everyone. He was beaten 2 times by the team he faced so that team collectively outplayed him.
You are comparing apples and oranges. I thought you claimed to know the game.
I acknowledge the Rangers have been outplayed and that absent Hank it could have been 6-1 yet am a bad loser?
*wow*
05-23-2013, 05:57 PM
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05-23-2013, 06:14 PM
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05-23-2013, 06:17 PM
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05-23-2013, 06:18 PM
05-23-2013, 07:01 PM
End of 1st 12 shots to 4. Score 0-0 Who worked harder?
05-23-2013, 07:21 PM
Interesting Ranger goal. Rask's style was interesting.
05-23-2013, 07:59 PM
Another Rask quality save.
05-23-2013, 08:00 PM
2-2 23-13 sog Rask is clearly better
05-23-2013, 08:11 PM
Holy ish! It's a PP Goal!
05-23-2013, 08:56 PM
Ot!!!!!!
Winnar!!!!!!
Winnar!!!!!!
05-23-2013, 09:36 PM
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Just depends. Fine line between success/failure in the NHL. Not all teams get the blessing of Malkin, Crosby, Iginla, Neal, Morrow, Letang, Fleury, and etc.
05-23-2013, 09:38 PM
My problem with John is his constant negativity. If a player is not pulling his weight it needs to be addressed in the locker room not the media.
05-23-2013, 09:46 PM
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And yup...Coach Q continues to be 
by Babcock.
This series is over. Don't care it is 3-1.
by Babcock. This series is over. Don't care it is 3-1.
05-23-2013, 09:47 PM
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Ummmm, can we get the Hawks moved to the East instead of the Wings 
05-23-2013, 09:48 PM
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Alright, suicide watch update: Dom still on the list, Cabby is off the list for a day, add Yummycha to the list...
05-23-2013, 09:48 PM
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05-23-2013, 09:52 PM
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I hate the Wings...but, I hate the ineptitude of Chicago's PP more. And their poor ability to change up their play.
Fib, as promised, after the fork is completely stuck into the Hawks after Game 5, I'll be downing my entire Glenfarclas 25 bottle.
Fib, as promised, after the fork is completely stuck into the Hawks after Game 5, I'll be downing my entire Glenfarclas 25 bottle.
05-23-2013, 09:53 PM
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They deserve to be down 3-1. No fair-weather fanning here.
05-23-2013, 10:00 PM
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it's not like they blew a 4-1 lead with 10 minutes left in game 7. They're just being completely outclassed and out coached by their arch rivals.
Sorry Yummy. Just Pop in that VHS of the 11' cup final and you'll feel better. I'd do the same but VCR's didn't exist in 1967.