F23A4

Anybody have any idea as to how successful Toyota was with their two V6 Hybrids (re: Toyota Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX400h)?

Maybe Honda should have adapted their IMA for use in the RDX. Lord knows the RDX has piss poor fuel economy.

Infamous425

in real world driving the hybrid RX barely gets better mpg than the regular RX. rather see a diesel RDX

Siddig

That is because Lexus is all about increased performance out of hybrids. They leave the fuel efficieny part to Toyota.

The Accord hybrid was never marketed well. A lot of mistakes were made with it, and the fact that you have to admit Toyota just has a better hybrid system overall. I'm interested to see what happens with the sales numbers for the Altima Hybrid.

Infamous425

the altima hybrid should do well, of course not toyota numbers, since nissan is using toyotas hybrid tech

TSX69

I thought that the Altima Hybrid would only be sold in 8 states? Therefore making it hard to compare sales #s ...

Sclass88

As many of you have probably already heard, the Accord Hybrid is going to be discontinued next year which is kind of a bummer but understandable seeing as though it was selling very poorly.

One of the local TV men wrote a blog on his website about the news and said

"If this blog were a car it would have this bumper sticker on it's rusted bumper:

Honk if you think the auto industry really cares about the environment!

Honda announced today it will stop making the Accord Hybrid beginning in 2008. Quite simply, the car wasn't selling. Why? Well, because Honda never wanted to make an environmentally friendly Accord in the first place. Instead of making the Accord Hybrid a four cylinder that got great gas mileage, it made a six cylinder hybrid that used the technology to crank up extra horsepower rather than extra MPG's. At the end of the day, Honda learned people will only drive Hybrids if they can get the 40-50 MPG's of a Prius or a Civic.

Why is this interesting? Maybe it's not. But, it's interesting to me because I truly wonder whether car companies give a lick about making green cars. I think they only want to make green... money.

Interestingly, GM is cranking out cars and SUV's that run on Ethanol. Good for them.

One problem..... in all of New England... there is ONE ethanol station.

Please excuse the rantings of this car obsessed blogger who, for full disclosure, doesn't own a car that gets more than 22 MPG's.

See you at Ten-

David" (Source: Myfoxboston.com)

So in response, I wrote in

" Sorry but Honda isn't the cleanest and most fuel efficient auto maker in America for nothing. I don't know about the other car companies out there but Honda absolutely is concerned about aiding the environment. Every single vehicle that they produce from the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX SUV's and Honda Ridgeline pickup truck all the way down to the Honda Civic Honda Fit are all LEV (Low Emissions Vehicle) while some models are ULEV (Ultra) and others SULEV (Super Ultra). There is a reason that Honda as a car company gets so much praise and it lies in their unparalleled craftsmanship, engineering, reliability and their efforts to help the environment. I see what you mean when you say some car makers are only out to make some green but not Honda. The reason the Accord Hybrid didn't sell very well was because the marketing was poorly executed and this is a problem that Honda will have to fix to compete with the Prius. However, don’t forget, the Prius dominates the market because of the amount of time that it has been on the market. It was the second Hybrid vehicle to hit the market behind the FIRST Hybrid to hit the market which was the Honda Insight. And finally, to say that another reason it failed was because the Accord Hybrid only came in a V6 is misleading again. Take a look at the Camry Hybrid; it too is ONLY offered in a V6..."

So what are your feelings on his comments? Let's hear them...

Siddig

Bullshit, see Lexus (hybrids built for performance.) And why good for GM? Ethanol gets worse mileage then regular gas. That "writer" is a ninny.

Texas

I do not understand all this Hybrid hype no matter what the brand…they cost more ($$s and energy) to build, buy, maintain and dispose of…no way green if you are into such…
Diesels will do a better job…just people wanting to feel good or not considering the true cost and just looking at mpg… …

gilboman

well your screen name explains why you dont understand. but you should do some more UPTO DATE life cycle analysis on hybrids and then you will know they do have an advantage in terms of enviornmental impact. and diesels give good mpg, but the toxic from their emissions is not exactly good stuff. and how can you feel good driving around in a diesel that clunks along?

Ken1997TL

Agreed. That writer is a moron. The Accord hybrid is/was a nice car, but it was never marketed. Damn you Honda for letting yet another good vehicle die off.

LuvMyTSX

I've read on here somewhere that the new diesels are just as clean as the current gasoline engines because of new technology. Granted, the old diesels were not as clean, but the new ones are better.

speedzer

Umm....the Camry Hybrid is only offered with an inline 4. Not that I don't agree with you, I just want to correct that little mistake.

LuvMyTSX

With negligible mpg improvements over the regular model, and a higher price tag to boot, the Accord hybrid never really had a chance. If you're going to make a hybrid, you have to do it right so it gets better mpg, being that that is the whole point of a hybrid vehicle. Why anyone would spend thousands more on a car that gets 2 mpg better than the regular model is beyond me, and Honda should have recognized that before it went to market and failed miserably.

Infamous425

im pretty sure its sold everywhere. they wouldnt bother making it if it can only be sold in 8 states

bulldawg

No, it's not sold everywhere. It's in a few limited markets like New York, California, etc..

Infamous425

damn got

SiGGy

Yup, Accord hybrid is a waste IMO. The increase isn't that substantial from a stock Accord.

SSMTL01

Good riddance to the hybrid BS, bring in the diesel

LuvMyTSX

And congrats on 2k posts!

Texas

Well thanks for the complement to all of us in Texas….But sorry, you must be dimmer than you sound to form an opinion or prejudice against someone based on where one lives….....

Although you mention life cycle, you appear, like most, to be looking at mostly the MPG etc….on hybrids to determine they green value or summed total energy consumption to some....Life cycle as you say...

there have been "recent" articles out that show to build a hybrid (i.e. electric motors, batteries etc) uses far more energy than a non-hybrid, then add the energy cost to maintain (motors, battery packs etc), then to properly dispose of the hybrid (more cost than non-hybrid) add all this energy cost and it is more than a non-hybrid and not made up for by gas savings…..they appear to dispute your life cycle articles....Do not tell me you think florescent bulbs are good too…

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

hybrid cars are a fad. Lets see where that tech is in 5-10 years. It will either be dead or replaced by something better.

Siddig

Again, see Lexus.

biker

Don't mind gilbo - he's just in here to cause trouble.

A RWD comment can't be far behind....

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Hybrids are still overrated IMO.

I'd much rather buy an older used car that gets just as good gas mileage and save the rest of the money for repairs if needed.

Texas

+1 or a new fuel worthy car with low repair record

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

Mokos23

i'd rather buy a diesel more than a hybrid anyways.

biker

...and because of this Honda and others who do diesels right will have trouble keeping up with demand. The Accord diesel will probably sell for sticker for a long time.

phile

Stupid questoin, but does anyone have any experience with diesel gas stations? Cause we don't fill our own in Jersey and the last thing I need is someone pouring the wrong stuff down the tank.

TSX69

Unless something has changed, diesel pumps have a larger nozzle to help differentiate them from regular pumps. Granted, that means you cannot fit a diesel nozzle in a regular car but I guess 1 could put a regular nozzle in a diesel car but hopefully the unsnug fit would be a hint.

gilboman

life cycle is from production to disposal. and if you have subscribtion to journal index service..i suggest you go on web of science and look at the web of science index and look at the more recent academic reserach in hybrid analysis.

instead of looking at media chosen publications with dubious backgrounds. since hybrid technolgoy is constantly improving the most recent research i've seen is on the early 2003 prius' and from 120k onwards, their impact is less than a conventional midsize gasoline powered cars.

and you for LCA of an automobile..80% of the impact is during the use stage where hybrids have a definite advantage in not only mpg, but c02 output amongst other things. and i'm not sure where you are getting your hybrid misinformation from, but what signifigant upkeep/maintaince are there for the electric components and/or batteries? they do not require it.

gilboman

what about it? they make HIGH performance hybrids...the accord was not a high performance hybrid.

Siddig

No shit sherlock. Read the post I replied to which was trying to say people don't want high performance hybrids.

LuvMyTSX

From what I've seen at the stations, diesel has its own pump. I didn't realize it once, pulled up to that pump, and had to move to another one because I couldn't get regular gas from it. At the Shell station I go to, the diesel pump is on the other side of the lot.

My dad, OTOH, had a diesel Opel Astra while my parents lived in Belgium for 4 years. He accidentally put regular gas in it TWICE and had to have it towed back to the dealer. He said the dealer told him they have at least one person per week come in because they did the same thing.

Python2121

I hate to see any progressive technology disappear as much as anyone, but damn hybrids failed to impress me especially in bigger cars. It is too bad there is no way to reclaim braking energy w/o the complex drivetrain. It would be really nice if there were small batt packs and hub engines in the rear wheels of a fwd accord so you get awd, marginal weight increase, and separate drivetrains instead of their current setup.

Texas

did not bookmark the articles and sites but will look up same...showed total energy cost to build, run (included such as gas cost and cost of electricity) , maintain ( normal maintenance plus such as replace when batteries and electric motors fail or replacement required due to accidents % factor vs. non-hybrid maintenance etc) and properly dispose of the car where higher than the energy cost non-hybrids............

They are of course best guess estimates by knowledgeable people but they do show the current hybrid with the current technology is not that green when compared to non-hybrids by measures other than MPG

TMQ

I'm surprised by some of the comments here. "not impressed by hybrid technology" - well, what technology do you have that can increase mileage significantly, decrease emission significantly, and stays as a viable business?

To many, the value of the environment is certainly worth more than the extra thousands of dollars. If you have been to some of the countries when water is scarce and people live in extremely poor conditions, maybe you'll think for a minute about others and the future generation.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Then simply by an older car like a civic that's sitting on some used car lot that doesn't require any extra pollutiion to make because it's already sitting there. They get decent gas mileage and are relatively cheap to maintain. Use the extra money that you saved to donate to that country where people are living in poor conditions.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the technology and the resources that are used to make a new hybrid car are just as bad if not worse than simply buying a used car that can get pretty decent mileage and I'm talking 30 or 35mpg+.

Even if you were to buy a civic that was in so so shape for about $5K, you could easily get it into good shape for very cheap and have a great commuter, high mileage vehicle.



I'm not saying hybrid technology is bad. I just think that the bandwagon followers don't do all the research and are being brainwashed into thinking they are helping the environment.

Also, why should only hyrbid owners benefit from tax incentives. Why shouldn't people that ditch their gas guzzler for an older car that gets good mileage be afforded similar breaks for taking the initiative to do something about saving gas. The government is just as much to blame for pushing this as the auto industry is. The government doesn't give a rats ass about saving gas, otherwise another prime fix would be to help solve freeway congestion issues so that people aren't wasting gas in stop and go driving. They make millions of $$ off of gas tax, you think they really and honestly care about the middle class issue with rising gas prices?

Moog-Type-S

Fixed

Fuel Cell FTW
Hybrid FTL

TMQ

People have to buy new or used (new to them) cars sooner or later. Yes we can all drive less (I've been carpooling/vanpooling the whole time ever since I started working), but you can't force decisions upon people, you can only make attractive products available for people to buy.

In terms of business decisions, what Toyota did with Prius was almost perfect execution. They built a brand image with that car. It's much harder to notice cars like civic or camry hybrid - you have to see the behind to notice.

F23A4

Indeed, Toyota did fully tap into a niche with the Prius. Many of those with the Prius (particularly in Princeton, NJ and the immediate surrounding areas) seem more bent towards the Prius as a green statement car more than anything else.

More to the topic (Accord Hybrid), I love the concept of IMA as a power adder. I would like to see how well IMA could be performance tuned and applied to the drivetrain of say the 07 TL-S or RL. (Though adding only 9hp (albeit 21lb-ft more) over the Accord V6's J30A5 was a bit weak, I think it has more to do with the Acura TL's place on the Accord food chain.)

With more development, maybe this could be a great turbo/blower alternative that rewards its owner with terrific performance while returning very good fuel economy.