vybzkartel

Couldn't agree more!

Remember, even Lexus tried with the IS?!

black label

We essentially had the same question come up Colin. What we were told was that Acura (North America) has absolutely no control or input on what will be done with the TSX platform, we will get what they give us. Those decisions are made in Japan by Honda. Not sure if its a global platform vs a North American platform thing.

black label

they did with the K23.

Legend2TL

The problem is with the consumer, the vast majority of the US market have no interest in wagons.

Although Europe loves them, along with hatchbacks, MT, diesels,..

Costco

maybe a move to Europe is in the cards

Though at the same time, I believe there's also taxes on displacement or higher registration costs.... something like that :thumbsdow it's just a shame that us Americans are in love with automatics and SUVs.

biker

...because of the incentives that are in place. Well, those same incentives are coming here in the form of higher gas prices and higher mileage rules.

Let's assume the following scenario:

It's 2015, the Accord wagon that has EPA mileage rating of 26/36 is on the shworoom floor for 22K. Right next to it is a CR-V similarly equiped for 25K and its mileage rating is 22/30. Gas is $5/gal. The buyer takes both out for a test drive and realizes how much better the Accord rides than the CR-V (assume here that Honda doesn't screw up the next Accord in terms of ride).

What percentage of people buy the wagon vs. the CR-V? What percentage of people buy the wagon over any other 25K CUV in the category from anyone else assuming there few other wagons out there?

dom

I think you're overestimating the intelligence of the average buyer and not giving enough credence to how much perception/stigma plays a part.

biker

Of course the follow on to that would be: if Honda knew 1/2 (or pick some other number) the people would buy the wagon over the CR-V but at the same time it would bring in new buyers since others don't offer a wagon, would they build it?

biker

That changes over time - I hear a lot of soccer moms don't want to be caught dead in minvan and overall sales are shrinking. Again, given enough incentives, you don't need too much inteligence nor does one care about the stigma to choose the wagon.

dom

In favor of...you guessed it, SUVs and CUV's. They're willing to give up the practicality to look good. Wagon's usually don't look good. I hope you're right. I just can't see it happening.

biker

...and here is where Honda will have a problem cause their Torrance design center couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.

The Crosstour could have worked if it wasn't so ugly, was about 300lbs lighter, came with the I4 and was about 10K cheaper.

Colin

And manufacturers have tried to introduce them at times, with very limited success. Subaru is probably the most successful with wagons, and even they were trying to change the 'image' of the Forrester by calling it a "SUV wagon" or something like that.

CAFE yes, artificially higher gas prices, not so sure. Our government is determined to try to use CAFE to shape buyer behavior. In 40 years it has failed and done nothing to change American buying habits. Given a choice, Americans still choose large SUVs and trucks over more 'logical' choices.

The loophole in CAFE (originally there to protect the US auto industry) that moves light trucks (ie crossovers) into a classification where they don't affect a companies CAFE numbers encourages automakers to push such vehicles vs. wagons.

In short, the US consumers don't want wagons and automakers don't want wagons, even if they are more efficient at many jobs. IMO, it would take a brave congress to repeal CAFE and replace it with a gas tax. As you noted, if faced with $5-6 a gallon gas, Americans might finally change their tune.

Part of the problem here is that it sort of becomes a 'poor man's tax' since it seems (at least here) that the richest live close to town, and the working class lives in the outskirts. So the people that use the most gas are usually the 'poorer' who are forced to live where housing is less expensive.

I think there's no easy answer to the dilemma, but in the meantime ... keep those shitty selling wagons away from our lots and give us a RDX-L that rides nice!

Colin

Not that it matters, but I think Honda's are designed in Pasadena, and Acura's in Torrance. Also, not that it matters, but I'd bet that the same guys that did some of the more popular designs did these. I blame someone in management for not sending them back to the drawing board to 'tone it down' and not the designers.

Moog-Type-S

So if Honda built a Venza, there would be a whole lot of WIN.

Legend2TL

That's a little optimistic over the amount of folks who will switch over to wagon over a small increase in fuel economy. I think Europeans really like wagons and hatchbacks, they are practical and many families only have one vehicle, so it's a natural choice.

My wife's cousin had a 94 Accord wagon EX, they loved it but they won't trade their 2001 Odyssey for another wagon. The Ody holds so much more and and fits their needs better as their kids are in high school now.

FWIW, I like wagons and loved my wife's 86 Integra 5 door hatchback. Practical and fun. Two neighbors have XC90's which to me are really wagons but I guess the official description is a cross-over. Reminds me of all the academic families I grew up with that had Volvo 245

Legend2TL

Bingo that's what industry marketing folks predicted ~5 years ago. Ii know many recent empty nesters who ditch the mini-van for a small cross-over.

Legend2TL

Good points, the MI politicians and automaker lobbyist's did a great job getting the CAFE rules to exclude light trucks.

I agree that Subaru is in their own class as well as the Volvo XC90 which were a rare success for them as well.

Look at recent sales of Ford F150's being back on top, we Americans can be stubborn when it comes to our vehicles.

I think there's still a small market for wagons in the US, but it tends to be more for the more academic types over the blue collar folks who have settled pretty well into the SUV and to a less extent mini-van markets.

Colin

I can see where this is true. The car must be competitive in Europe as the Accord first and foremost. Acura's volume is a 'perk' at best. So those that complain that Acura brass is doing all the wrong things by making the TSX "bloated" etc. are out to lunch.

dom

No question. I've always maintained that Honda call the shots. I seriously doubt an Acura exec makes any decisions. But isn't it always Americans who want the bigger car? I wonder if Europeans and the rest of the world really wanted a bigger Accord?

Is the Accord still available with a 2.0L over there?

biker

^ yes, along with the 2.2 diesel.

Colin

I thought that they needed a larger chassis (engine bay) to hold the diesel? Also, remember that all the competition is getting bigger. So yes, HoE wanted a bigger car, and we got a larger TSX as a result so you can't blame AHM for that.

From what I know, the Japanese called the shots on the RL, no V-8 and no RWD. AHM and the dealers wanted a more conventional approach but Japan wanted to do it 'the Honda way".

AHM definitely called the shots on the Accord chassis, which beget the TL, as well as the larger light truck chassis which spawned the MDX.

This is why I have to laugh when the knee-jerk folks say that AHM is solely to blame for Acura's situation. Each side of the pond has released it's share of duds and winners.

Legend2TL

Who makes the decisions on the Civic?

SSFTSX

http://www.examiner.com/honda-and-ac...port-wa-review
Launch: Leaving my Heart in San Francisco with the 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon


Shaded by the toweringly majestic arches of the awe inspiring Golden Gate Bridge, I witnessed a car company pull off one of the most audacious press launches in recent memory. While every other automaker and their cousin Bob are busy launching new crossovers, luxury renegade Acura decided to introduce a premium wagon based on its sporty TSX sedan.

The delicious chutzpah of it all is made all the more satisfying by the fact that they have, indeed, pulled it off. The 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon is a fun to drive, economical (28 miles per gallon during my time driving it), affordable and has all of the utility of the best luxury crossovers. It also looks really, really cool.

It’s the family car for moms and dads (or dog owners) who still want to look cool.

EXTERIOR STYLING

Now, Justin Timberlake may have brought “SexyBack” but it was Acura that brought sexy to the back of the 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon. The Audi A4 Avant, BMW 3-Series Wagon, Volvo V50 and every other wagon on the market today look positively frumpy by comparison. I don’t think I have ever called an Audi frumpy before but the TSX Sport Wagon is just so sensual that nothing else really compares.

The cut of the rear tail lamps blends perfectly into the rear ¾ panel and this vehicle photographs well from every angle. With a lot of new cars you generally try and photograph them from 2 or 3 angles to keep them from looking awkward. I had no such problems with the 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon. The Sport Wagon also benefits from the sleeker new front grille design that bowed with the 2011 TSX sedan.

INTERIOR

The 2011 Acura TSX enjoys a few detail changes like silver inner door handles (so quit your complaining!), LED foot lighting, new dash trim, increased noise insulation measures and an updated navigation system with a larger VGA screen, storage for 3,500 songs and Acura’s “Song By Voice” technology. “Song By Voice” allows you to use just speak the name of the album or song you want to play from your MP3 player or the hard drive. Trust me, it’s cool.

The cargo area has 25.8 cubic feet of cargo room behind the second row of seats and with them folded flat that figure expands to a whopping 60.5 cubic feet. The cargo area also has a number of sturdy metal cargo hooks built into the floor and side which can help keep your stuff from moving around.

These hooks will also be a boon for dog owners who want to secure a dog crate or safety harnesses for the utmost in canine security. In fact, as a dog owner I found the low entry height and this multitude of safety options really appealing. If I was in the market for a new vehicle for my dog Daisy Mae I would buy a 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon without question.

PRICING AND FEATURES

The “base” TSX wagon starts at $30,950 and comes with a 2.4 liter 201 horsepower 4-cylinder, five-speed automatic, paddle shifters, leather upholstery, dual zone climate control, power windows, power door locks and mirrors, keyless entry, XM, Bluetooth, USB/iPod integration, power moonroof, Acura 7-speaker premium 350-watt audio, roof rails, power memory driver’s seat, heated front seats and returns an EPA estimated of 22 city/30 highway. No luxury wagon on the market today can compare from a price perspective.

The only upgrade is to the Tech Package which brings the price to $34,610 and adds Acura’s excellent navigation system with traffic rerouting, restaurant Zagat guide, real time traffic, real time weather, a back-up camera, the awe-inspiring Acura/ELS 415-watt Audio system with 10-speakers, 15GB hard drive of song storage, remote-linked power tailgate and GPS linked solar-sensing climate control. In my opinion the Tech Package is well worth the extra outlay.

DRIVING IMPRESSIONS

The 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon drives, steers and handles just like a regular TSX which is to say phenomenally. I was also surprised that even though it weighs approximately 130 lbs. more than the sedan that the 2.4 liter 4-cylinder always felt peppy and strong at all speeds throughout the rev range. The vehicle was also noticeably quieter thanks to the 2011 sound deadening measures that have also been applied to the sedan.

Turn in on the winding roads north of the Golden Gate Bridge was crisp and the steering felt nicely weighted. The five-speed automatic did a terrific job of keeping the engine in the power band around tight corners and steep uphill climbs. Telepathic would be a good way of describing it.

In other words, if you love the TSX sedan you will love driving the Sport Wagon just as much. And boy, is this puppy so much more fun to drive than an SUV.

CONCLUSION

Sales of the 2011 Acura TSX Sport Wagon start on Dec. 21st2010 and 4,000 units are projected to be sold the first year. That seems like a conservative estimate to me given the number of people who are tired of “Mommy and Me” SUV/crossovers. This wagon should appeal to young families, empty nesters who don’t like driving bulky SUVs and, of course, fanatical dog owners like me.

biker

While I share the reviewers' opinion we'll see how close to 4000 units Acura actually ends up selling, especially since MY11 will likely end being only about 10 mos.

Colin

I don't know on that, but since there's only one version (vs. two for Euro Accord and NA Accord), I'd guess it's Japan? I could see them allowing the Civic to grow knowing that the Fit was slotting under it. The Fit is certainly a Japan product. What do you think on Civic?

Hapa DC5

I like it. Wife still wants a Crosstour if the family grows. I'd rather keep the Fit or get this, but we all have bosses to answer to.

Legend2TL

My guess is the US (and Canada since that's where they're made still?). Since the Civic has grown in size and as you pointed out the Fit has filled that market in Japan.

As you also pointed out earlier the US calls the shots on the light truck market, interesting story on that (or as my wife says non-amusing story for most of us people ).

After the Accord based 1G Odyssey was based on the Accord with swing doors, HoJ gave the lead to HoA for the clean sheet design for the light truck platform which would lead to Odyssey, MDX, pilot, and Ridgeline. The first product for that Platform offering was the 2G Odyssey, after the California team had assembled the first non-rolling prototype the HoJ leaders came over for a big design review visit.

They had already seen the drawings and computer models for it but this was their first viewing of the actual full size 2G Ody. I believe it was at the Torrance design study and when a vehicle is seen indoors it psychologically seems bigger.

The HoJ exec's and managers just kept walking around it in the large studio room. Some were talking to their colleagues and keep saying things like "so big" in japanese with worried expressions. At the time the Toyota Sienna was based on the Camary and was 6" shorter in wheelbase so the 2G Ody was much larger inside and out.

The exec's were apprehensive about the size and wheither or not it would be a success. According to story all loved the new novel rear compact independent suspension and folding 3rd row seat. None the less after the several day design review and operations plan where they cautiously approved the tooling and production planing for 60K/year vehicles. I don't remember when but the entire production run sold out in far less than a year and was quickly ramped up to 90K, then 120K for the following years.

IIRC the 2G Ody design team also did the 1G Pilot.

Colin

I think this wagon could be a boon for RDX sales....I just had a repeat customer (in an AWD RDX)who is expecting her first child. I suggested the TSX wagon as a way to get better fuel economy with a better ride over the RDX. She went with a 2WD RDX because it sits higher, and fuel economy was not a concern for her.

Second example, customer in an 2008 TL, husband has an MDX. Two kids in child seats + strollers. The new TL was too long for their garage, and the TSX was very tight in the back seat for their big safety seats. They laughed at the idea of a wagon. They're going with a 2WD RDX instead.

These are literally 2 of the last 3 cars I've sold. Hopefully it will be different when people start coming in FOR the wagon vs. my suggesting it as an alternative. I can say this, the lack of powertrain options did not play a factor in the decision.

Colin

Yup, and I'm thinking that Colliver played the biggest part in that. Mendel came in from Mazda where he was very prominent when the previous generation Mazda 3 came out (2003ish). I'd be hard pressed to say what his contribution at Honda has been, but maybe it's too soon? Anything that he shepherded would have hit the streets in 08-09 and run head first into a 180 degree shift in the auto marketplace.

Legend2TL

Didn't remember the names from the Wall Street Journal article (auto business from mid 2000's) that told the story of the growing independence of HoA but that sound right. HoA had been pressing hard for a bigger role in the US products, in the past they had alot of oversight or HoJ nannies who watched over them. The Honda board was annoyed with the lack of products in the lucrative US light truck market, and constamnt complaints from Honda dealers that many Accord owners owned mini-vans, SUV's, or pickup trucks too. The great success of the 2G Ody, 1G MDX, 1G Pilot really bolstered HoA reputation with HoJ.

Colin

Of course the poorly received TL won't help their case, but HoA might take some solace from HoJs failure with the RL. If the next sports car from Acura is closer to a Vette than a Ferrari, we'll know who won that battle.

Legend2TL

Oh yeah, this is my theory on what happened. HoA achieves great results with the Ody/MDX/Pilot and 2G/3G TL (under Charlie Baker's leadership). Sales in US are going great with diversified product line, HoA tells HoJ trust us we know what were doing look at all these products we're on a roll.

The 3G Ody is a success, and HoA feels it's time for the Accord to move to full-size so the 8G Accord gets super-sized HoJ goes along with that and HoA's power plenum to give a common look to the lineup (something Acura dealers have voiced their complaints about for a many years).

The 2G MDX is bold and moved more up market, and sells. Then the 4G TL comes along and maybe like breast augmentation if a little bigger is better than a whole lot bigger and bold is really great so HoJ somehow is talked into the 4G by HoA with the much larger grill. The rest is were they are today.

dom

I know we sometimes chuckle at Acura being a luxury marque but fact is they are. And people buying luxury cars don't typically care about what's more practical or what gets better mileage. Another reason why the TSX wagon will fail and why if Honda wanted to offer a wagon in NA it should have been done at the Honda dealership.

Belzebutt

^ The top two reasons I bought the A4 Avant is because it's practical and gets decent mileage. If that car didn't exist I would have probably went with a 3-series wagon and failing that, I would have given up on luxury altogether and gone with a Mazda 5.

Colin

I know that Baker's first major product was the Gen 1 CL. After that stupid car, I'm glad he got another chance to make good. IMO, everything wrong with the 4G TL is because of the success of the 3G. Had the 3G bombed against the G, things probably would have been very different. Honda must have figured, "Heck. we sold 70K in 2006 off the Accord chassis, why make a new RWD chassis at 2-3 times the cost, to sell ~10K more?"

4G built upon the success of 3G by improving areas that were perceived as weak by consumer focus groups. 1) needed more power, 2) FWD, 3) more trim choices, 4) more separation from Accord, 5) more distinctive styling. Obviously the success of this has been debated ad nausea, but I think that even the most vocal critic would agree, that if you thought that those were areas that could be improved upon, the 4G tried to answer them.

Yes, that's because "luxury" is relative to where you are at the time. Most people here forget that. And, fuel economy is still a factor (remember we're at 3.50/gal), but this person only drives 5000 miles a year. I remain convinced that the resurgence of the RDX is due to the improved fuel economy and lower price of the 2WD version. With a slightly softer suspension, this car could easily sell 2000-2500 a month.

dom

You're one of a very few.

black label

RDX sales are going to vary a bit by location as well. Would you happen to have an idea of how many FWD RDX's you sell vs AWD Colin? I can tell you that out of my store we sell the AWD exclusively, we never order the FWD version and never get asked about it either. In New England we tend to forget that heated seats, AWD and heated mirrors offer very little value to some one from Arizona, Texas or Hawaii.

dom

I was reading C&D's first take on the wagon last night. According to Acura, the take rate on MT sedan's is now down to 3%.

Any idea what it was on the 1st gen? I think part of that is the car's target audience, which has matured. But I doubt we'll see an MT at all by gen 3.

biker

I hope not.

Colin

That’s really interesting. Would this mean that the introduction of the 2WD has not had any impact on your sales at all? Would this mean that the RDX continues to sell at a similar pace now as when it was brand new in your store? For us, we have 4 2010 RDXs left with AWD, the youngest is 239 days old and the oldest is 265 days old. Our next two months of arrivals will be exclusively 2WD. If I had to guess just by inventory, we're probably 3 to 1 base FWD but it's hard since we're not getting enough to really see.