vybzkartel

Wasn't the mmc on the cars(no the trucks), on the 4th year in the past?


Maybe the reason why the TSX got it on the 3rd year, is because of the intro of the wagon?

SpicyMikey

Plus expanding the lineup has benefits in itself. Brings more people into a showroom, cross shoping, etc. This new offering should be a good thing for Acura and its dealers.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

My bad, I didn't mean to say that the TL has poor handling. I was comparing between the TL-S against the 3 series and G35 back then. I must say that after installing some eibach sway bars, the car handles great though.

jasonwdp10

I don't see why, (besides cost? and) after all the criticism, acura/honda still will not develope a RWD platform for their premium cars. I'd much rather get my Base TL in RWD and have it handle better instead of being forced to deal with the additional weight, fuel mileage penalty, complexity (lower reliability), additional maintenance cost of SHAWD. Regardless of how good of a system it is, it should not be forced in order to have a sportier vehicle.

RWD would be an instant differentiating factor between hondas and acuras so there'd be less overlap.

Legend2TL

That was the original intent of the TSX sedan, it required little development money and is/was almost identical to the Euro Accord. I don't expect great sales from the wagon either but give Honda credit for doing it. The TSX sedan has grown itself into a reasonable sales though.

dom

I'd like to hear Colin's opinion on that. He's always maintained that offering more variants of a model isn't necessarily a good thing. He brought that up when I was wondering why it was so hard to offer a 6 speed MT in the V6. I realize the wagon is a different car completely but Acura dealers will IMO be stuck with wagon that won't sell, taking up space on lots, while they could have sold a sedan. Remember, Acura customers apparently don't like to wait for orders.

nj2pa2nc

funny that cadillac has a CTS-V wagon with a 556-hp supercharged V-8 and 6 manual transmission (page 106 of the jan.2011 issue of automobile magazine

Belzebutt

Am I the only one who thinks the wagon doesn't look nearly as good/sporty/cohesive as the sedan? This is another case where I'm thinking "I don't find it attractive but I hope other people do". Pretty typical for Acura lately.

dom

Not the only one. I think the back looks terrible.

Colin

This is different that a 6MT. People might buy this wagon in the numbers they plan to make, but people just don't my manuals. Also, just to clarify, it won't take up a lot of space, 4000/year is only 333 per month. Divide by 270 dealers and it's going to add 1.2 sales per month. I guess I can buy that new house afterall...

...hopefully this is the last stupid thing they do before the changes Ito wants to make start hitting the streets. (assuming it takes 1-2 years to implement a 'plan' on this manufacturing scale)

Colin

C'mon, you're smarter than that. Why would they debut a new engine on an RDX? A new engine will come out first in a new RL or go 'high volume' and start in the Accord.

dom

Point taken. But I would have rather seen those 4000 spaces taken up by MT V6's than a wagon.

So what its going to take exactly to get you that new house? cliff side by the ocean in Maui I'm sure?

Colin

On a personal note, I'd love to see more manuals, but V-6 TSXs are already too expensive (and thus slow sellers) and adding manuals to the mix won't help that.

OMG, do you know how much real estate is here in HI? Even our tiny 1200 sqft house that is 45 minutes from town (traffic, it's only 20 miles) was last appraised at over 500K. I can't imagine how much something on a Maui clifftop would cost.

docboy

Colin, I would like to hear your take on why Acura is not (at least not currently) offering SH-AWD with the TSX wagon? Unless Acura is targeting people living in areas without heavy rain/snow (ie. FWD RDX)?

IF and IF people are starting to downsize from large expensive gas guzzler SUVs due to the economic downturn, which typically have AWD, wouldn't a TSX SH-AWD Wagon be the "smart luxury" answer?

dom

This is getting off topic here. but wasn't the last gen TL-S a good seller? What were the percentages of manuals sold on that car? Couldn't it be argued that a V6 MT TSX would be a continuation of that successful line?

Sometimes you have to pay to play. I've never been, but I'm sure its worth every penny.

Colin

It is possible that is the reason that Honda sells the Crosstour only as an AWD? (and V-6). I don't know, but this seems to cover similar ground in the non-SUV, wagonish, role.

I say this all the time, more models does not necessarily mean more sales (or happier customers). Acura sold 70K TLs with only base, navi, and 6-MT in 2006. If I recall there was an option for high performance tires. This was 4-5 SKUs. We currently have 8 TL SKUs. TSX is a similar story, 40K units with 4 SKUs. Now there will be 8 SKUs of TSX and we'll probably sell 30k a year. Granted the economy is different today, and the cars are not as well received, but IMO, the attempt to 'please everybody' with more trim choice has not been a rousing success when gauged by sales numbers and/or profit margins.

No No No! TL-S manuals were minuscule compared to the autos. Most people looking for a stick went with a RWD G in a similar price point. Acura should NOT be chasing FWD V-6s over 30K. It's just beating your head against a wall. (and I will include coupes in this opinion as well)

dom

If it matters, IIRC the Crosstour is available in FWD.

Well, had to ask.

I agree. But we don't have much other choice at the moment.

Colin

My bad. BTW, I haven't seen the wagon yet, but I've got to imagine that with the sedan ride height, the AWD rear diff would significantly intrude into the cargo space. (think TL AWD). Can you imagine the complaints if the wagon had a 'hump' to clear the diff in the middle of the load floor? Also, AWD would add two more fucking SKUs!

dom

Are you guys typing those SKU's in by hand over there? Time to get a barcode reader.

Moog-Type-S

Kill the Crosstour, make the say no to the TSX wagon and make it an Accord Wagon.

...and there you will have a huge pile of WIN!

dom

I truly don't believe there's any hope for any wagon on this side of the pond.

Colin

Exactly, the Crosstour will sell way more than a TSX (or Accord) wagon ever would. IMO, in North America, the only way to succeed (ie sell volume) in this segment is to be a 'non wagon' wagon. And even there, volume is a relative term.

Moog-Type-S

VW Jetta TDi Sportwagon seams to be selling well

dom

How well exactly? And can you think of another?

smarty666

Your not the only one. Not only does it look bad, but that blue color they've been advertising it in doesn't go to help anything. Its waste for Acura, just like the ZDX was. Their priorities are all out of whack. They should be introducing a new sedan, redoing the RL completely, and/or introducing a new entry-level luxury coupe rather than the ZDX and TSX Wagon BS!

Those are the things people want to see and buy, not the ZDX an TSX Wagon.

Colin

Ha Ha, its just that there are too many model and trim levels for dealers to have any choice of providing a car to a customer in a timely fashion. I've been saying this for years and everybody takes my gripes about inventory out of context here. (saying it's demand not supply). Interestingly, I posted a link in another thread from automotive news with analysts saying essentially the same thing.

dom

So what's the solution? Drop the FWD TL, drop the V6 TSX. That's minus 4 right there. Not sure where else you can cut at the moment?

jasonwdp10

Oh I sounded like I was talking specifically about the RDX. Forgot the RDX, RL, and MDX should all be FMC'd at the same time(right?). What i meant was, that years FMC's should showcase the new engine.

The reason for singling out the RDX is because it's a relatively low volume seller and would give honda a chance to see how the engine does on that specific vehicle first (driveability, reliability, etc).

Colin

I would add content to the FWD base TL to bump the perceived value over fully loaded Accord. (back up camera in mirror, push button start etc). Drop the Tech w/18's as an option and make all Techs with them. Do you really need a base AWD? We've still got two 2009s. Make all 6MTs with HPT. (not sure if this would work in colder climates though).

TL
TL Tech w/18
TL SH-AWD Tech AT
TL SH-AWD Tech AT HPT (questionable)
TL SH-AWD Tech MT HPT

Finally, accept that whatever you do, you won't please everybody.

Drop one trim of the V-6 TSX, make it fully loaded at 35-36K. Same with the ZDX, three trim levels are too much, 1 (maybe 2) would suffice.

Colin

Got it, but I think that they won't FMC them all at the same time. I once asked specifically about this cause it seemed like they were set for 3 FMCs in CY 2012 and I've never seen that. My gut feeling is that RL in CY 2012 and MDX and RDX go 6 years and are updated in spring and fall of CY 2013. Sub TSX will slot in before RL FMC, either late CY 2011 or spring 2012

jasonwdp10

Ah I see. I was confused as to what acuras vehicle cycles are, let me see if i have this correct

TL = 5 years
3gtl = 04, 05, 06, 07, 08
4gtl = 09, 10, 11, 12, 13?
5gtl = 14?

TSX = 5 years (not sure about euro-accord)
1gtsx = 04, 05, 06, 07, 08
2gtsx = 09, 10, 11, 12, 13
3gtsx = 14?

RL = 9yrs?
1grl = 96, 97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04
2grl = 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12? 13?
3grl = 14?

MDX = 6
1gmdx = 01, 02, 03, 04, 05 ,06
2gmdx = 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12?
3gmdx = 13?

RDX = 6? (follows mdx cycle?)
1grdx = 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12
2grdx = 13?

ZDX = ? final year? lol

I may have gotten something wrong. But yea either way it seems like the 2 SUV's may FMC at a different time than the rest.

Moog-Type-S

I agree that the sedan is better looking than its wagon counterpart in the case of the TSX.

I like the fact that Acura has a wagon in the line-up, however, the timing is really bad.

One should add a wagon to the line-up when the rest of the cars: flagship, coupes, sedans, SUV's already are established and selling like mad.

This is not the case for Acura.

docboy

Well said.

black label

It's looking like some of the info I got was a little off. The tech package wagon could still be more than what I was told due to the power liftgate. That extra add in for a tech wagon is looking to bring it to about $35600.

Legend2TL

+1

black label

Make that $35470 ($34610 + $860 destination) for the tech wagon, I was right the first time with the base.

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=942527

Regis, that's my final answer.

SSFTSX

Euro Accord/TSX is definitely not less than 6 year model cycle.
It was lunched in April 2003 as 2004 Model. Year. but it was on sale in Fall of 2002 in EU.
2G TSX on sale in April of 2008. (Shown September 2007). and Now December 2010. It has minor MMC. almost 3 years. So there are 3 years left in FMC for TSX.

biker

I think exactly the opposite. If Honda offered an Accord LX wagon (like they did in the mid-90s) at $20K it would sell - granted, not at CR-V levels, but it would sell.

The reason there are no wagons is that makers rather sell more expensive SUVs/CUVs and whatever category the Crosstour is. As with the TSX, a wagon version can be virtually the same price as the sedan. It would have the lighter weight and better mileage of a sedan vs. a CUV/SUV.

Other than the Jetta (and maybe the Hyundai Elantra) there are virtually no true sedan based wagons under 35K. The Fiat re-entry into the US may provide another.

Biker, who learned how to drive on a '74 Fiat 128 wagon.

dom

That Accord wagon sold at at time when there were no CUV's. As long as there are, wagons are DOA.

biker

All it would take is for someone to make and succeed in selling one - all the other makers would follow along and bring the consumers.


The problem is not on the consumer side - it is on the maker side since they don't want to give up the higher profits of the CUV market. The Obama Administration, as short lived as it may be, is trying to change that.