Mizouse

really? i had no idea.

i was just thinking of how it was for my friends BMW

Mizouse

fine fine, ill just and go back to the PGT

mrdeeno

What's the point of Acura's slogan "Acura Advance" if they offer it on one model, and then wait for others more widespread and on lesser models before bringing it to a 2nd model? You can get an intelligent key on a Nissan Versa, but not on the MY2007 MDX or even MY2009 TSX...maybe Acura should change their slogan to "Acura slow-to-Advance".

TMQ

It's hard to say at this point, but the front overhang is still big. I hope the grille is more MDX than the new RL/TSX. It'll make people nervous to wait to see the rear of the car. Hopefully not too much shiny plastic.

The greenhouse definitely reminds me of the the GS, which the Maxima sort of copies. I don't like that design at all and hopefully the execution is better on the TL.

Not that I'd need another new car (528i is a joy to drive). I do hope that the new TL packs with some significant improvement in engine/transmission/chassis, not just more electronics gadget.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure when they include a push start button on all Acura models, people will complain about "oh why do they have to put in so many buttons in the car?" when in reality there's only one extra one....

mrdeeno

I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. But in case you're serious, when people complain about buttons, they are talking about the center stack buttons where most are similarly shaped and colored and are used during driving, so too many is not good.

No one would include the engine-start button when they complain of too many buttons.

But for the record, I hope you're being sarcastic.

zeroday

True, my GF has this in her base model altima. I didn't get 'comfort access' with my BMW because of my own paranoid reasons so I have to insert the key fob, then press the start button. It's not a problem but it makes no sense. Annoying but I guess technically it's always been two actions anyway- insert key and turn. Now it's insert fob and press.

Costco

I've always hated those door handles. Not that they make or break anything, but they belong on trucks and only trucks



Its funny how Acura is branching out and away from Honda, but they're screwing everything up, while Honda is doing great. I'm starting to think they should try and be more like Honda, like back in the day when they could sell a new 1994 Legend for $40,000+ when it essentially was a rebadge

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, but I think a lot of luxury cars use that kind of door handles too..namely G35 and IS.

Hmm, I'm not too sure about what abut mean by Acura is screwing everything up. If it's about the styling, IMO, the grille is the only problem. In terms of sales, I don't think they are really doing that bad. New TSX, it's too early to tell. The MDX, it dropped 20% this month compared to last year, but YTD it's outselling the X5 by a large margin (~11000 vs ~17000). RDX, they sold ~6600 YTD, while BMW barely sold 6000 X3. The 3 series and 5 series are much better than the TL and TSX though in terms of sales, but then again, those 2 are outselling pretty much everyone too; and obviously, the TSX just got redesigned, while the TL is approaching the end of its cycle. The only screw up is the RL in terms of sale.

vishnus11

Acura is doing well sales wise and the redesigned TL will only boost sales. What they need to do is cater more towards enthusiasts instead of the general luxo car buying crowd. Hopefully we'll see enthusiast version of the TL and TSX in the coming years, as well as a new NSX and hopefully some kind of new coupe/cabriolet targeted against the G37 and A5/S5.

phile

What's wrong with the pull out door handles? I love them. The ones that pull up feel flimsy. My only complaint is that fingernails scratch the paint in the inside part of the "scoop". In some cars, it's body colored plastic in that area to prevent paint scratching.

This one is from a Saab:

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree. More sporty models are needed!

csmeance

Acura needs to do what benz and BMW are doing, have sport lines and regular lines, for example:

TSX - 4cyl motor retuned and modded for more power
TL - 6cyl motor that gets around 340 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
RL - 8 cyl motor that gets around 400 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
RDX- 4 cyl turbo retuned for more power with SH-AWD
MDX - 6cyl around 340 SH-AWD & VCM
NSX - 8 cyl around 400 HP with SH-AWD and VCM


Type S Line/Type R Line
TSX-S 6cyl motor around 330 HP with VCM
TSX-R 6 cyl turbo motor around 375 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
TL-S 8 cyl motor around 400 HP With SH-AWD & VCM
TL-R 10 cyl motor around 450-500 HP with SH-AWD & VCM (straight 5 or v4, v6, or v8)
RL-S 10 cyl motor around 475-500 HP with SH-AWD & VCM (straight 5, v4, v6 or v8
RDX-S 6cyl turbo motor around 375 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
MDX-S 8 cyl motor with around 400 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
MDX-R 10 cyl motor with around 475-500 HP with SH-AWD & VCM
NSX-R 10 cyl supercharged motor around 600HP with SH-AWD and VCM



To do this, acura would need to make something in this range:
NEW 3.5 LITRE 6 CYL MOTOR WITH VCM DOHC
NEW TURBO 6CYL MOTOR WITH VCM DOHC
NEW 4.2 LITRE V8 MOTOR WITH VCM DOHC
NEW 4.5 LITRE V10 (TL) MOTOR WITH VCM DOHC
NEW 5 LITRE V10 (RL/MDX) MOTOR WITH VCM DOHC
New SUPERCHARGED 5 LITRE V10 WITH VCM DOHC

I know this is far fetched, but this will have acura up there and get itself a name with great cars, the nice semi-fast regular TSX, TL, RL, MDX and RDX, then the S line and the R line that is just for us people that love performance and are autmotive enthusiasts. Also for those wondering, with VCM technology and some better transmissions, a supercharged v10 will be able to archive the gas mileage of around 32 MPG, imagine an NSX cruising only using 4 cylinders out of 10 hauling a 2800 pound car, pretty doable. OF course, the prices will be in the 100,000+ range for the R line

This is just simply what I think will work...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'd love to see that line-up (may be with a few changes, but nothing major) in Acura too. I'm just not sure if Honda can afford to have that many variations though, considering they are still a small car company compared to Toyota, GM, Ford, Nissan, VW. Benz and BMW are different, they are dedicated to making luxury cars from the beginning, they don't have to focus their resources on economy cars. All they build are high end parts and cars. Also, a lot of people admit that the VCM doesn't work very well, it does not offer much better fuel efficiency, and it also robs a lot of power (as seen in the Accord V6).

Costco

Sorry if I didn't make it clear.... since we are talking about the 2009 TL (upcoming model), what I meant to imply is that Acura is screwing everything up with the upcoming models. The RL concept looked like all around.... grill, body lines and creases, rear end.... they all look terrible. The TSX doesn't look bad but the grill ruins the design, this new TL is looking bloated, with so far, what looks to be a 5-point trunk like the current Acura grill, disappointing powerplant and drivetrain layout choices all-around, etc. Has there even been a single mention of a 6-speed automatic yet? A REAL RWD layout?

I used to be excited about the upcoming 4G TL.... potentially with RWD, a V8, sleek looks.... but what do we look forward to? Guillotine grill, guillotine trunk apparently, same old J-series V6 with a few tweaks, bigger and with AWD. Why not just get a current-gen RL, for much less, more amenities, and better looks?

Seriously.... are there ANY of you truly excited about what Acura has to offer? From what I'm reading, no.... instead, all I see is, "I'm glad I bought my 3G TL/TL-S" or "glad I didn't wait for the next TSX/RL to come out"

So far the Acura lineup doesn't seem appealing to me at all. Acura's most recent new model, the TL-S, is about the only car I'm remotely interested in. on the other hand the new Accord coupe is great, Civic Si, and S2000 catch my attention.

I'm starting to wonder why doesn't a bigger company come along and buy Honda (like Renault did Nissan) and allow them to diversify and make more models with more options. As it stands right now I doubt we'll start seeing a full range of turbo-V6s, V8s and V10s of various displacements from Honda.... we've been waiting on it for years and it hasn't happened, and with the increases in gas prices, why would it happen now within such a conservative company?

And I just noticed that the new E9x BMWs have those door handles too! They just don't look sporty AT ALL. I know the TL is no sports car (though there are those that will dispute that), the pull-out door handles don't look right on a sports car. They feel flimsy because a lot of manufacturers (Honda/Acura included) use cheap, flimsy materials. Some pull-up handles are metal and feel pretty solid. Still, its a minor detail and it seems there's no convincing people otherwise anyway.

Mizouse

dom

But having said that.....Doesn't look bad but I don't see the huge surprise and amazing styling that was rumored from people who have seen it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ah ic, thanks for clearing that up. IMO, the facelifted RL is a fine looking car, except for the grille.

Unlike most other car manufacturers, Honda does not source out for their gearboxes. Many manufacturers use gearboxes from Jatco (owned by Nissan I believe), Aisin (by Toyota), Getrag, BorgWarner, ZF, etc. For some reaons, Honda design their own gearboxes in-house. They are succeeding in their manual boxes, but as we all know, they are not doing well with their 5AT and I think they should contract it out.

If you go to the TSX forum, you will see there are many people who are impressed by the new car, even though they thought it wasn't an improvement before. They changed their mind after seeing the car in person or test driving it. If you want to upgrade from the current TSX to the 2nd gen, most likely will be disappointed. But then Acura would like you to upgrade to the TL instead as your income also increases over time (as stated by Dick Colliver). The TSX remains to be an entry-level luxury sedan and when you look at it that way, it's a fairly nice car. Of course, as usual, it's not the best in class, nor the worst, it simply does everything just fine, with solid reliability (well hopefully..). To a lot of buyers who are new to this segment, the TSX is a great candidate. We will have to wait for a year or so to see the actual sales figure though.

I think I can answer that - why Honda hasn't been bought out by a bigger company. Well, I think some companies certainly wanted to at some point. I don't know how business or economy works, but from my understanding, unless the company wants to be bought out, or it's in serious financial trouble, it's not likely it will be bought out. Honda has been seeing growth and making profits virtually every year. So it's not likely it will get bought out soon. In fact, it's one of the few car companies that are not owned by other companies, that fact says a lot about the company. Perhaps making conservative models is one of the ingredient to their success?

dom

Not to mention they're likely falling behind in the automated manual market. Seems everyone has a dual clutch transmission sourced from ZF or Borg Warner etc....that are becoming more and more popular but no word on if Honda has one in the works. In all likely hood they'll be late to that game as well.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

"Acura. Leading the way away from everyone else."

mrdeeno

They aren't doing so swell with their manual trannies either.

http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/article_258.shtml


The reason Honda hasn't been bought out is because the price for buying it out would be so close to valuation, if not higher, that it's not worth it. Companies buy companies to make money...ie money is spent to buy, then invested, to return more money. If you see that if you buy something at $20, invest $20 into it, and in the long run can make it worth $100, then it's worth it. But if you buy something at $20, invest $20 into it, and in the long run it's only worth $50, the time, effort, and risk put in isn't worth it. That's why companies that get bought out are usually in financial straits, or if they aren't in financial straits, they feel they have a lot more potential if they had more resources to work with if they were bought out.

And usually companies that are being bought out want some kind of premium to what they are actually worth, and the less dire straits they are in, the more premium they will ask for, which makes Honda not a worthy investment for any larger company at this point.

mrdeeno

C'mon, this is Honda we're talking about! You must've been the only one that thought there was potential of RWD/V8.


I don't know about BMW, but MB has used this type of handle since the late 80's, if not earlier.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea I agree, they should really get someone else to make their automatic/semi-auto gearboxes.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

IMO that's a much less severe problem than the one associated with the 5AT. What I meant is that, Honda's manual boxes have one of the best feel in the market.

Moog-Type-S

WdnUlik2no

Yep, I remember that Skit. It was the Chameleon XLE

FiveLiterCheater

You're approaching the companies business plan from a performance oriented viewpoint. Their sales are doing just fine, only recently did Infinti surpass them for the first time ever. That being said, Infiniti is marketed out to be performance oriented by offering only V6/V8, RWD/AWD layouts. I agree that Honda/Acura should be more performance minded, however if its going to break the bank for them and not be financially feasible then it doesn't make sense for them to do so. Infiniti has marketed performance since day one and just now they have surpased Acura, which is mainly because of the introduction of the new G, face-lifted M, EX (although its a complete POS). You're obsession with the door handles is pretty funny as well, because i'm staring at the M45 and G37 in our showroom and they both have the pull-out style handles.

I've done auto sales for about two years now, and I can tell you people have no idea what RWD is and don't care how many cylinders a car has. Sure, you're going to have the occasional gear-head walk in but they don't clear out our inventory. Most people are interested in features, comfort, utility, safety, appearance, and dependibility, and thats what Acura is banking off of currently. So you have 95% of consumers demanding one thing, and the other 5% demanding another. It would be in ones best interest to satisfy the larger portion.

In all honesty, i've lost so many sales due to Infiniti's terrible gas mileage. People test drive a G35, put it on the real time fuel econ. readout and see that they're only averaging 15-16mpg in the city. The M45 gets about 11-13...don't even get me started on the QX56. I wish I had a car to turn them to that does get somewhat decent MPG, like a G25 or something. I believe thats where the TSX will shine. Atleast Acura's sales people do have a car to offer their clients that can get atleast 30 on the highway.

Consumers *ARE* becoming stingier with thier money. Anyway you put it, everyones disposible income has decreased within the past year. With the economy the way it is and all other factors considered, I believe the entire auto industry need to focus on making their cars more effecient. The horsepower war was fun when gas was easily dispensible, but when a barrel of oil is hitting $129 and gas reaching $4.50/g+, I think its time to change priorities.

Mizouse

vishnus11

YOU are by far the SMARTEST man on this thread...by far..

Most consumer don't know absolute shit about what kind of engine their car has under the hood or which damn wheels are powered....I swear to god, if I told 100 prospective Acura buyers that the car was "left-wheel drive" in that both wheel on the left side of the car provided propulsion, 98 wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Today's luxo-car buyers are interested in technology, features, efficiency, comfort, in an easy-to-use package, that has styling presence. Evidence? Acura, despite its "tarnished" image according to some of the enthusiasts on this thread, sold more TLs than BMW did 3 series in 2004 and 2005 and took the title for best selling luxury sedan in the US. The TSX sells like hotcakes, and the new generation will only further boost sales. The MDX outsells the X5, as does the RDX to the X3.

The luxury game is further fast changing with increasing gas prices - even companies like Audi are cutting back on V8s for the S4, and instead going with the blown V6 route. An efficient, well packaged sedan like the TSX and the Audi 2.0T are just the ticket for buyers looking for luxury, but not the big gas bill that goes with it.

And saying that a luxury car buyer of a $50k car doesn't care about gas is a crock of shit. These buyers do care - enough that luxo-car manufacturers in Europe offer diesels to cater to this crowd, as well as lower displacement versions of these cars, that we don't see here (i.e. 320i, 320d, 525i and so forth).

The TL WILL be a hit. It is a vehicle R&D'd in the US for US buyers, and is following up on a very successful 3rd generation.

And its starting to rain BS when people start complaining about "pull-type" door handles - which btw have safety benefits.

vishnus11

Half the "gurus" on this thread that are raining BS and hailing the end of Acura would do wise to look at the company's US sales figures compared to the competition...and then take a business course or two. Even though sales are down 20% in April (more due to the economy than anything else), the intro of the new TSX and TL, will undoubtedly only improve their current figures

SRK85

Hm if the TL wants to be hit it better have better gas mileage than 26mph highway and it has to look good too. The reason why the 3rd gen TL was such a hit was all the features for the price. Now if the TL comes fully loaded for 40k then it will sell a lot for sure. Also the problem with 50k luxury cars the only company that actually offers a good gas mileage car is Mercedes Benz with their E320 blutech.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

JJaber06 and vishnus11 both said it very well!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

biker

While the typical 5 series or E class driver doesn't hang out at car websites to talk about mileage, they're not bad. Motorweek had a comparison between the E350 and E320CDi and was suprised to hear that real world fuel mileage for the E350 was 26!!! - the diesel got 32 on the same test.

biker

I've been saying this (need for a G25) when gas was still $2/gal. Forget the EPA mandated fuel mileage regs of 2020 - with the gas prices today the market itself will correct things before then.

As I mentioned before, the TSX being "dumbed" down to 201 HP might just be Honda looking way ahead.

If you want a 300HP TL get it soon cause it's not going to last.

SRK85

True but I mean with gas prices these days I hope that most Americans change their habits in car buying. When gas is 4 dollars a gallon I hope people start wanting smaller turbo engines and more fuel efficient cars.

Costco

I made my post according from my own viewpoint which as you said, is a performance-oriented viewpoint. I'm not that average consumer who doesn't know what the hell FWD is, so I don't think I'd represent their viewpoint very well.... therefore, I represent my own, whether its financially wise on Honda/Acura's part or not.

And how do you know that customers stray away from Infinitis because the gas mileage? Do they tell you directly that that's the main reason why they don't buy? And even if they do, please don't tell me you buy that crock from potential customers. There's tons of reasons, like you said... features, appearance, utility, etc. not only that, Acura and Infiniti aren't the only brands in this market segment. There's BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus....

Since consumers are so interested in fuel economy, WHY has Acura decreased the output of the TSX, while increasing the hp output of the TL AND given it AWD, thus adding even more weight and making fuel economy, in almost all cases, even worse?

mrdeeno put it best in another thread.... this must be Acura's back asswards thinking at work.

Your reasoning here is contradictory. So.... Infiniti has recently surpassed Acura in sales, but buyers are usually turned off by the gas mileage... and 95% of customers don't know crap about RWD, horsepower, etc. but this fancy "R-W-D or whatever it means" is moving Infinitis? Even then it doesn't make much sense to compare Infiniti to Acura sales because their model years are laid out differently.... Infiniti introduces a new model every ~4 years while Acura has a 3 year "minor model change" with a minor facelift, and a 5-year "full model change"

I don't have any obsession with door handles at all, I made a particular comment about pull-out ones reminding me of pick-up trucks, and I also specifically stated in that same post that its not a make or break deal for me.... so I don't know why people are taking such offense, or rather, being so defensive about it... to the point that someone would point out that its a safety issue? I'm curious because I actually don't know.... what safety advantage do pull-out handles possess over pull-up handles? Less chance of snagging my sweater sleeve?

and like I said.... there's probably no convincing people either way.... its not a big deal. Myself included, I don't think anyone crossed a car off their list because it had pull-up handles or otherwise.

No one here is hailing the end of Acura. Does this new era of guillotine grill Acuras represent the end of the road for my interests in buying an Acura? Maybe... and I think that's what the majority of people in Automotive News feel. Look around you... everyone here has moved on or are seriously contemplating moving on. Even YOU were thinking about buying a 335i, M3 or some BMW weren't you? That speaks volumes.... I do acknowledge that you have good points on the matter, and I usually try to take the devil's advocate approach when it comes to automobile companies, but in Acura's case its hard for me to justify wanting one when they don't offer the most important things that I'm looking for. Does this mean the end of Acura? No.... but again, I've never brought up Acura sales numbers because they mean absolutely nothing to me.... at the end of the day I sleep just fine whether Acura sells well or not. But if I'm saving up for a new car and the new Acuras are looking like garbage, I'll sleep a little better because thats one model or two I'm gonna cross off my list.

Sure, Acura sells more xxx than BMW sells xxx in this segment and that segment but does that matter to any of you at all? Does it make you want an Acura more, rather than if BMW outsold Acura? I don't see how it would affect anyone at all, unless they worked for Honda/Acura or had stock invested in them. Hell, if anything I'd rather people NOT buy the cars, that way if I really want one, I can get it for cheap(er) since the dealers know that the models aren't moving off lots.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

"People test drive a G35, put it on the real time fuel econ. readout and see that they're only averaging 15-16mpg in the city."

To me, that sounds like the people actually tell JJaber06 about the fuel economy. Of course, it would be nice if he can clear things up. And bingo, you just mentioned the reasons why Infiniti has been successful in the past few years, features, appearance, utility, as well as performance. May be they don't do so well in fuel economy, and they lose quite a bit of customers. But the other reasons bring back some other customers in.

The RL currently is rated at 18/26mpg, vs 19/29 of a normal TL, and the TL-S is at 19/28. I'd imagine the newer TL should be a bit lighter, and as usual delivers slightly better fuel economy than the current RL. I'd guesstimate it to be 19/27 (1mpg up from current RL), which is pretty much in-line with the current TL-S. So it might be worse, but it won't be like 5mpg worse. And as some have said, they can't compete with FWD alone right? They will still offer the FWD version anyways that would deliver the same or slightly better fuel economy. Again though, those are just speculations.

I think Infiniti is changing to a 5-year "full model change" too. G35 is a great example, introduced as a 2002 model, and 2nd gen was introduced as a 2007 model. That makes the first gen...2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, a 5-year model. The FX is even longer, a 6-year model, 2003, 2004,2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.

Not sure about this, but I think the pull-out ones could be safer because in case of a crash, it's easier to pull, then to "lift" open a door? It's a well known fact that doors are much harder to open after crashing. In some cases, even with those pull-out handles, it's still impossible to open. I think people become "defensive" because of what you said, "but they belong on trucks and only trucks." I don't think I have to explain this further. And really, it's a personal preference anyways.

Again, for your last to paragraphs, I think it's because you said Acura is screwing up everything. Of course, now I understand what you mean by that, but some others may have missed your reasoning in another post.

FiveLiterCheater

Thats fine, and I agree with with you. However, both of us being 19 years old will obviously opt for the performance minded viewpoint. In reality, it doesn't matter what we think, or what anyone on a message board "thinks". It all comes down to sales. Companies don't base their decisions on the opinions of 19 year olds on a message board because if they did, the entire Acura line-up would consist of a Turbo V8 with 500Hp+, and a Dual-clutch SMG. Say this was the case, and they did build the car. It would satisfy the wants of a bunch of car nerds on a forum that don't even have the money to buy the car. Thats building a car for 1% of their prospective buyers, while the other 99% don't give a rats ass about it. The car will sit on the lot for months on end while Honda/Acura just lost millions of dollars in R&D/production of the vehicle. Sure, they made a bunch of gear-heads happy, but that doesn't pay the bills.

dom

Last I checked BMW, Audi, MB and now Cadillac and to a lesser extend Lexus build cars for enthusiasts IN ADDITION to the cars they build for regular folk and that seems to be working just fine.

mrdeeno

there was no MY 2002 G35.

2003-2006 = 4 years w/ refresh in 2005.

I think the M will also have the 4 MY lifecycle...2006-2009 w/ refresh for 2008. New model for MY 2010.