iforyou

iTrader: (1)

dom, I think they should move on to a new engine series too, or at least make DI work with VTEC well. Seems like they gave up on the DI concept, they did use it with the 1st gen Stream, but later the replaced that engine with a non-DI engine, and it was more frugal and powerful at the same time. I'd imagine it was cheaper too. Perhaps I'm wrong, and they are working hard to get DI to work with VTEC? Or they are simply focusing on A-VTEC, which most people have already forgotten.

As for tranny, at least for AT, they should really consider NOT developing one themselves, and follow the trend and simply get a gearbox company to make it for them, I mean, most other car makers are doing that anyways. IMO, if Honda were to use a 6 or 7AT, they would help increase the performance by a lot, rather than fuel economy (it will still help a bit of course), as the current 5AT is tuned for fuel economy, as we can see by the tall gear ratios. For example, in my 2nd gen TL-S, it's at around 1600rpm at 60mph, I don't think that engine will have enough torque to rev any lower anyways with a 6 or 7AT.

Moog-Type-S

I don't think it's all lies. Gearing combined with a more efficient engine (DI) = better MPG.....for sure on the Highway at least.

dom

I agree, I only say 'is it all lies?' because all I hear from Honda apologists is that the J is good enough and 6 and 7 speeds are only marketing tricks.

VTEC Racer

Check out the misalignment and uneven gaps on the center console. This a picture taken right off of the Lexus website. Is this the kind of Lexus, made in Japan quality you are referring too? And incase you didn't notice, a couple Lexus cars (ES350 included) have been downgraded to average on consumer reports reliability ratings. Lexus USED to have the BEST quality in the industry, not anymore. Just go read the forums to see all the complaints.

Moog-Type-S

There's the reason why.

Mokos23

gosh there's their "pursuit of perfection". wtf?

Mokos23

i agree with your statements except Korea??

TommySalami

Aren't the new Hyundai models built here in America?

Moog-Type-S

Alot of them are.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's..pretty bad..

Mizouse

and thats right on their website?

LuvMyTSX

...... LOL

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

An average person would not notice that

Mokos23

too much Sapporo Beer for the Japanese worker.

titan

The average person just might notice that... it's pretty bad. Not subtle at all.

phile

It's actually not bad. The camera is resting on the center armrest to get that shot and that's when all the angles look weird and misaligned. The average person sitting upright and looking down won't see the same thing.

Have you guys ever looked at the stalk your steering wheel is resting on? In almost every car, it's pretty bad. Plastic pieces not coming together tightly, cheap plastic cause they don't expect anyone to investigate back there, etc.

FiveLiterCheater

Is that plastic I see? The camera can't be resting on the armrest, unless the armrest is placed EXTREMELY high (it might be, I have no idea) The one thing that always turned me off about Lexus' interior (besides woodgrain) is the gray/silver center consoles...

TommySalami

Anodized gray aluminum would look much better in place of the gray plastic

SakiGT

6MT and AWD?
http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=766902

Or is this old news somewhere else?

Moog-Type-S

Page 86 of this thread.

oonowindoo

what is the point of SH AWD? it is basically a FWD but heavier.

I would actually prefer a TL with FWD over SUPER HANDLING AWD...

Super Handling <----------

Costco

Have you ever driven a vehicle with SH or SH-AWD? I never got to really push it but SH is kinda interesting, it acts like a LSD but even better. Kinda tricky to get used to it, but its better than FWD, and SH-AWD can only be better.

I can only imagine the TL getting even better handling, despite the apparent increase in size.

oonowindoo

It is a FWD based AWD system. How interesting can it be? Techinically it is not even a TRUE AWD just like GTR is a not a TRUE AWD either, except 1 is FWD based and 1 is RWD based.

phile

I think SH-AWD will be RWD-baised for the TL. Kinda like how they recalibrated it for the RL's MMC refresh.

oonowindoo

ReallY? this is the first time i hear Acura's SH AWD is based on RWD. again, i dont believe it.

phile

I didn't say it was RWD-based...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well, think of it this way, SH-AWD makes a 4000+lb luxury FWD sedan (RL) into a car that can actually corner without understeering. Or think about how Audi and BMW are incorporating SH-AWD (ie, copying + improving) into their new AWD system. I'd say this system, even though it's FWD biased, it's better than a lot of non-torque vectoring systems out there. Of course, RWD-biased + torque vectoring could even be better.

FiveLiterCheater

Isn't Audi's quatro system FWD based?

mrdeeno

I don't think they made it RWD-biased in the MMC...they just made it more responsive. It still defaults to 70/30 f/r, which is FWD-biased, but it will be more responsive in sending torque to the rear wheels than it did prior to the MMC. But it's still FWD-biased.

Audi's system is FWD based (on most cars), but it's been retuned to be RWD-biased...limiting the torque to the front wheels to only 50% at most.

TypeSAddict

the point here is that the SH-AWD system apportions torque something like 70-30 in the RL under normal conditions toward the front

in audi, it used to be 50-50, now it is 40-60 and in programs like ATTESA it's 0-100 in normal conditions. honda needs to recalibrate their sh-awd to at least a rear biased ratio if they want to be competitive with sport sedans using rear biased awd

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ that's only true with you are talking about marketing - if you want to be competitive with sports sedans, you have to state that you have a rear-biased AWD system. Actually no, I don't know how to word it, sorry about my poor English...I guess what I'm saying is, for handling, torque-vectoring is really helpful in eliminating understeering that you see in a lot of FWD cars. On the other hand, rear-biased AWD gives you that..RWD feeling, and simply gives you that extra traction when you need it. Ultimately, torque-vectoring + rear biased would give you better handling and that RWD feeling. I believe this is what most people want on this forum.

Edward'TLS

For Honda/Acura with no sedan RWD chassis, AWD is the only way to break the 290+ hp barrier for good handling FWD cars. When you have a 300hp engine and still wants a good handling TL, it's either RWD or AWD. There is no other choice.

TypeSAddict

Right, rear bias and torque vectoring would be great. But a front heavy, front biased AWD sedan with torque vectoring is going to feel like a front heavy, front biased sedan 90% of the time.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

But that's not really true for the current RL.

Edward'TLS

This is very true. For RWD-chassis AWD sedans, since most of the engine power is piped to the rear, large diameter rear transaxle/drive-rods and heavy-duty rear differentials are used. This, in effect, puts more weight to the rear of the car, thereby making the car less front heavy in comparison.

As for FWD-chassis AWD sedans, flimsy rear transaxle/drive-rods and small rear diff. are used because it's a FWD chassis after all. So the car remains to be front heavy, no matter how the front/rear power is being distributed.

Mokos23

so no more new photos?

mrdeeno

Whether SH-AWD negates the handling effects of a FWD based car or not, the fact of the matter is it is still a heavy and costly band-aid for the handicap that is FWD and has its own disadvantages (namely weight, cost, and parasitic losses).

The simplest solution (although not most short-term cost effective) is a RWD platform, but one can also argue that this also has its disadvantages (short term cost to develop platform, handling in inclement weather, packaging, getting drivers used to RWD). The difference though is these disadvantages don't seem to be hurting BMW, MB, or Lexus, etc...and it has even been shown that the advantages of RWD outweigh the disadvantages, especially with boosting brand image when premium brands switch from FWD to RWD (Infiniti and Cadillac come to mind).

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anyone clamoring for a premium brand to switch its RWD models to FWD. I wonder why? I guess we'll know what's in store for the next-next TL in about 5 years.

vishnus11

But its not like the disadvantages in FWD are hurting Acura either - I KNOW that the average luxury car buyer doesn't know which wheels power their luxo car. Enthusiasts might, but not the average buyer. And Acura's sales which better those of most luxury car companies in the States are solid too.

I'm not saying that FWD doesn't have limitations. But I'm saying that RWD isn't the ONLY way forward. For Acura, SH-AWD presents a better bet, because it enahances the foul weather capabilities of FWD whilst enhancing the RWD dynamics as well. Weight and a slight increase in drivetrain loss are the only downsides, although as the Nissan has shown with the GT-R, the latter can be GREATLY reduced with newer technologies.

mrdeeno

Please re-read my post carefully

I am not talking about any disadvantages of FWD. I am talking about disadvantages of AWD. Take the RL for example...it suffers from every one of those disadvantages...weighs more, costs more, and puts less power to the ground than RWD competitors.

As for rest of the lineup, there is no other AWD sedan except the RL, so there's no history for you to say that the disadvantages of AWD does not hurt Acura, because the only example currently available proves otherwise. but IMO, based on the RL and other manufacturers in the same market segment, disadvantages of AWD will hurt Acura and the TL.

mrdeeno

When Acura announces that the TL will have twin turbos, 400+ hp, dual-clutch sequential manual tranny, and be based on a RWD platform, then we'll talk about "newer technologies". Hell, if Acura announces they have a production V6 that's NOT the j-series, we'll talk about "newer technologies" and how they negate the disadvantages of AWD.

But considering that they did NOTHING with "newer technologies" to negate the disadvantages of AWD in their FLAGSHIP model, what makes you think they'll use any on the TL, especially considering that the TL's strength is "value"?