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If we have a good idea on what it's going to look like, I wonder why it was delayed? Extra testing after the 15?
Honda/Acura can't afford any more bad news in the media. It's not a big secret that their QA/QC has suffered the last 15 years. If delaying the launch means they have more time to work out the bugs, then I'm okay with that. But they can't delay too long either. Look at the waning interest in the Type-S in this thread.
I've lost interest already, back in August they showed the concept Type S, it's now 7 months later and still NO specs released, NOTHING. But Acura has TV commercials showing quick view of the Type S. Sorry Acura, but you've drained me like a malfunctioning HFL did to my 07' TLS battery.
I am with you. I left in 2010 for a 2011 M37S then did a 2014 A6. Came back for a 15 TLX and as a stop gap a 19 TLX ASPEC. The wife got a 19 RDX when released and honestly the new Acura interior is a turn off to both of us. First the electronics are a mess. They had my interest when the Type-S concept was first shown, but then the leaked interiors showed up and just not digging it. My wife has been loyal RDX for last few cars, but she is hating hers and can’t wait for lease to be up in 18 months. I think I have run my course with Acura. Maybe when the release the car I may change, but not likely.
I don't think anyone's beef is with the delay, it's the fact that 1) they won't reveal a damn thing about it, even though the leaked renders are out and and the base powertrain specs are a given, and 2) they instead trot around the same concept with no interior (again despite the leaked interior renders), and expect folks to not be disappointed when the watered down production version finally shows up after getting used to the awesome concept design.
Certainly the interior/exterior bits and powertrains have already been nailed down, so what's the harm in showing a few teasers or offering media test drives in camo'd up prototypes? Nobody said they had to release specs yet, and nobody would give a damn if a prototype suddenly breaks down during a test drive.
I am with you. I left in 2010 for a 2011 M37S then did a 2014 A6. Came back for a 15 TLX and as a stop gap a 19 TLX ASPEC. The wife got a 19 RDX when released and honestly the new Acura interior is a turn off to both of us. First the electronics are a mess. They had my interest when the Type-S concept was first shown, but then the leaked interiors showed up and just not digging it. My wife has been loyal RDX for last few cars, but she is hating hers and can’t wait for lease to be up in 18 months. I think I have run my course with Acura. Maybe when the release the car I may change, but not likely.
Put on an investor hat on for a second. A lot of people are recommending HMC as a buy right now because it is an undervalued, stable earner with low P/E. But I can't do it because of posts like this. All of these alarms sounding about brand loyalty are a big deal. It takes years or decades to build brand loyalty. Sometimes this is passed down from parents to kids. Ask Ford guys if they will ever drive a Chevy and vice versa. Whatever brought us to Acura is being squandered. For some, like me, reliability is paramount. Squandered. For others, styling. Squandered. For others, performance. Squandered. The only sliver of people still satisfied with Acura are those who seek a value proposition (whatever that is, value-luxury or value-performance, basically meaning inferior or half assed). There are simply so many other better cars for the money in each of those categories (Lexus, Euros, Euros, Genesis/Kia, respectively)
Is the sky falling on HMC? Probably not. The Accord, Civic, Odyssey and Pilot are all solid. Acura? Probably not. At least the MDX is a top tier vehicle. But Acura is undoubtedly driving people away en masse for building a mediocre TLX. Users right here are busy almost every month leaving for other brands. I can't WAIT to see the new TLX, not just out of curiosity for styling and specs (I'm not buying one), but to see how it sells. It doesn't appear many people here are waiting around for it. Seriously. Go back on the TLX forum, pages 40-46, before and when the TLX was launched. There were dozens if not hundreds of users interested in, waiting around, test driving and reviewing this car. They are all gone. How many are here waiting for the new 2G version of the TLX and Type S? Like six people?
Put on an investor hat on for a second. A lot of people are recommending HMC as a buy right now because it is an undervalued, stable earner with low P/E. But I can't do it because of posts like this. All of these alarms sounding about brand loyalty are a big deal. It takes years or decades to build brand loyalty. Sometimes this is passed down from parents to kids. Ask Ford guys if they will ever drive a Chevy and vice versa. Whatever brought us to Acura is being squandered. For some, like me, reliability is paramount. Squandered. For others, styling. Squandered. For others, performance. Squandered. The only sliver of people still satisfied with Acura are those who seek a value proposition (whatever that is, value-luxury or value-performance, basically meaning inferior or half assed). There are simply so many other better cars for the money in each of those categories (Lexus, Euros, Euros, Genesis/Kia, respectively)
Is the sky falling on HMC? Probably not. The Accord, Civic, Odyssey and Pilot are all solid. Acura? Probably not. At least the MDX is a top tier vehicle. But Acura is undoubtedly driving people away en masse for building a mediocre TLX. Users right here are busy almost every month leaving for other brands. I can't WAIT to see the new TLX, not just out of curiosity for styling and specs (I'm not buying one), but to see how it sells. It doesn't appear many people here are waiting around for it. Seriously. Go back on the TLX forum, pages 40-46, before and when the TLX was launched. There were dozens if not hundreds of users interested in, waiting around, test driving and reviewing this car. They are all gone. How many are here waiting for the new 2G version of the TLX and Type S? Like six people?
Exactly! The investor hat is the best way to look at it. I always tell people I look at everything from a business perspective. I was all hyped to buy a Type S, but now I'm seriously considering Genesis (GV80 or G80 Sport). I have a gut feeling that although the TLX will be impressive it will be impressive for Acura. I still want to know what's going to move the needle for this new model besides an updated interior like the RDX. The Type S should 'catch up' with the competition but will that be enough?
I don't think anyone's beef is with the delay, it's the fact that 1) they won't reveal a damn thing about it, even though the leaked renders are out and and the base powertrain specs are a given, and 2) they instead trot around the same concept with no interior (again despite the leaked interior renders), and expect folks to not be disappointed when the watered down production version finally shows up after getting used to the awesome concept design.
Certainly the interior/exterior bits and powertrains have already been nailed down, so what's the harm in showing a few teasers or offering media test drives in camo'd up prototypes? Nobody said they had to release specs yet, and nobody would give a damn if a prototype suddenly breaks down during a test drive.
I agree. Honda and Acura love to wait until the last minute to show their stuff. The problem is no one is really checking for Acura and there's so much excitement over a lot of other new vehicles coming out. They should have let the Type S Concept die down after the LA Auto Show or wait until LA to reveal it or even not say anything at all. Everyone is over it at this point.
For an investor Honda can still look good because its base product line has a very loyal following # 3 in the mass market segment. Acura is the black sheep division.
For an investor Honda can still look good because its base product line has a very loyal following # 3 in the mass market segment. Acura is the black sheep division.
Can you share the luxury brand loyalty chart with us?
Luxury, Acura is 8th. But it makes sense because we all know how much Acura fell and everyone went to Honda. Doesn't mean we can't all come back.
Pretty decent considering only producing 5 vehicles excluding nsx, soon to be 4 if the rlx goes away and going real conservative I say. We all know what acura need to do to at least get over 40%, no need to even keep talking about it. They either do it or not.
The only sliver of people still satisfied with Acura are those who seek a value proposition (whatever that is, value-luxury or value-performance, basically meaning inferior or half assed). There are simply so many other better cars for the money in each of those categories (Lexus, Euros, Euros, Genesis/Kia, respectively)
Seeing as I'm in the demographic that's being subtly disparaged, I'll explain what I was looking for when my managed expectation led me to the 16 TLX 3.5 PAWS and then to the 19 version that succeeded it.
Quite frankly I wanted an Accord V6 EX-L/Touring with:
Better ride quality yet better handling
Quieter ride at low speeds as well as on the highway
Sleeker 3 box design (that's not a fastback)
Good fuel economy yet still capable of 100 mph+ traps
Great comfort level on long trips (read: Nashville/Cincy to/from NYC area, which I've done twice) as well as local driving
Better sounding audio system (at least marginally so IMHO)
Slightly better warranty coverage (granted both versions were trouble free)
Adding to it the fact that sell price at the time was $30,000 + fees for a 19 3.5 PAWS (base) made for an easy decision. It's not the best in any one category for this segment but, I've yet to be left wanting for much more save for better braking and handling, both of which could be remedied with the A-Spec or Tech Package trims I suppose.
Honestly, very few other sedans in this segment (or even general dimensions) make me pause in consideration of my TLX purchase. At it's price point, maybe a used 340i xdrive, S4 or Q50 3.7 comes to mind as does a low mileage 17 Accord V6 Touring. (At the time, the new Accord 2.0T Touring didnt quite grow on me.) Even then, only the 340i xDrive regularly comes to mind as a future replacement for my current TLX. As far offerings from Hyundai, Lexus, Kia, etc,...Im simply not interested in those brands.
Seeing as I'm in the demographic that's being subtly disparaged, I'll explain what I was looking for when my managed expectation led me to the 16 TLX 3.5 PAWS and then to the 19 version that succeeded it.
Quite frankly I wanted an Accord V6 EX-L/Touring with:
Better ride quality yet better handling
Quieter ride at low speeds as well as on the highway
Sleeker 3 box design (that's not a fastback)
Good fuel economy yet still capable of 100 mph+ traps
Great comfort level on long trips (read: Nashville/Cincy to/from NYC area, which I've done twice) as well as local driving
Better sounding audio system (at least marginally so IMHO)
Slightly better warranty coverage (granted both versions were trouble free)
Adding to it the fact that sell price at the time was $30,000 + fees for a 19 3.5 PAWS (base) made for an easy decision. It's not the best in any one category for this segment but, I've yet to be left wanting for much more save for better braking and handling, both of which could be remedied with the A-Spec or Tech Package trims I suppose.
Honestly, very few other sedans in this segment (or even general dimensions) make me pause in consideration of my TLX purchase. At it's price point, maybe a used 340i xdrive, S4 or Q50 3.7 comes to mind as does a low mileage 17 Accord V6 Touring. (At the time, the new Accord 2.0T Touring didnt quite grow on me.) Even then, only the 340i xDrive regularly comes to mind as a future replacement for my current TLX. As far offerings from Hyundai, Lexus, Kia, etc,...Im simply not interested in those brands.
This is exactly the point I make anytime someone thinks Acura is worth $55K plus for a type s. Acura and Infiniti have drawn in customers that aren't luxury buyers but technically people who are driving their products for the price of a Honda or Toyota and they've become a budget luxury brand. You can lease a Q50 for pennies these days. Just another sign of the type of brand they've both become.
I agree. Honda and Acura love to wait until the last minute to show their stuff. The problem is no one is really checking for Acura and there's so much excitement over a lot of other new vehicles coming out..
I can understand this strategy for Honda as they're still leaders in the non-lux segment and need to protect their IP, but Acura? There are no lux (or even near lux) brands striving to copy anything they do. If they truly want separation from Honda, the overseas rebadging exercises and shared decision making needs to stop. And if they truly want conquest sales, they should study how those those other brands market and execute new products, instead of some last minute reveal that disappoints everyone, and making excuses that the changes were based on focus group (as opposed to real enthusiast) feedback
No Type-S concept at the Cleveland Auto Show. Its the 5th largest by attendance in the USA and only two hours from Honda’s Marysville plants, but Acura considers it a “regional” show and not a national show. I spoke with the Acura rep, who indicated that it wasn’t clear when the Type S was coming, and generally had no information on offer. This finally convinced me of the rumors, which I had been reluctant to believe, of a delay. I wasn’t expecting much, but I’m still disappointed.
They DID bring the NSX GT3 Evo, so my NSX needs were satisfied.
The rep also indicated that we may be waiting until NAIAS in June for new product. I don’t believe that, but would not be surprised if that came to pass.
Good thing the manual Accord is so engaging and fun to drive, I like it! It’s a great stopgap as I await the Type-S.
If there is a delay, I'm sure there's a good reason for it. They need a home run with this car or we could be looking at no more sedans. Marinate on that for a bit.
No Type-S concept at the Cleveland Auto Show. Its the 5th largest by attendance in the USA and only two hours from Honda’s Marysville plants, but Acura considers it a “regional” show and not a national show. I spoke with the Acura rep, who indicated that it wasn’t clear when the Type S was coming, and generally had no information on offer. This finally convinced me of the rumors, which I had been reluctant to believe, of a delay. I wasn’t expecting much, but I’m still disappointed.
They DID bring the NSX GT3 Evo, so my NSX needs were satisfied.
I can understand this strategy for Honda as they're still leaders in the non-lux segment and need to protect their IP, but Acura? There are no lux (or even near lux) brands striving to copy anything they do. If they truly want separation from Honda, the overseas rebadging exercises and shared decision making needs to stop. And if they truly want conquest sales, they should study how those those other brands market and execute new products, instead of some last minute reveal that disappoints everyone, and making excuses that the changes were based on focus group (as opposed to real enthusiast) feedback
I agree and that's my point when I said no one is checking for them. They're acting all secretive as if everyone is on edge and the only people on edge are the fanatics.
Exactly! The investor hat is the best way to look at it. I always tell people I look at everything from a business perspective. I was all hyped to buy a Type S, but now I'm seriously considering Genesis (GV80 or G80 Sport). I have a gut feeling that although the TLX will be impressive it will be impressive for Acura. I still want to know what's going to move the needle for this new model besides an updated interior like the RDX. The Type S should 'catch up' with the competition but will that be enough?
you are in same position I am. If I go SUV the GV80 looks hot, if I go a sedan the next gen G80 Sport is top of my list. The rumored Areton with sporty turn PO set up lols enticing, but Hyundai is top of all my lists right now.
you are in same position I am. If I go SUV the GV80 looks hot, if I go a sedan the next gen G80 Sport is top of my list. The rumored Areton with sporty turn PO set up lols enticing, but Hyundai is top of all my lists right now.
Have you seen the spyshots of the G80? The interior is pretty much the same and looks like it has the 14.5inch screen. I think I'm getting the GV80 at this point for sure. Just two months ago in was ready to drop the money on the Type S. Acura needed a debut like the GV80 to wow people. Theirs and Infinitis overall perception is lower than Genesis for most enthusiasts and journalists and that's a problem.
Luxury, Acura is 8th. But it makes sense because we all know how much Acura fell and everyone went to Honda. Doesn't mean we can't all come back.
Actually not bad at all. With one new model, RDX and a lineup of 6+ year old vehicles. This shows that Acura can turnaround and make a huge comeback.
if TLX comes in Q2 and MDX in Q3 of this year. Acura will be in a good position. The only issue is Acura is encountering some sort of issues for sure. This testing is taking too long and there must be something big that is holding them back.
Actually not bad at all. With one new model, RDX and a lineup of 6+ year old vehicles. This shows that Acura can turnaround and make a huge comeback.
if TLX comes in Q2 and MDX in Q3 of this year. Acura will be in a good position. The only issue is Acura is encountering some sort of issues for sure. This testing is taking too long and there must be something big that is holding them back.
The brand loyalty metric is a lagging indicator because it's computed based on how many owners purchases the same brand. Even if the new MDX and TLX are great on paper, there are so many current owners who have been burned that it's unlikely they'll return immediately. Best case you're looking at 3-4 years out from now where the new owners trade in their cars for this metric to start moving up.
Why are people thinking the Type-S is going to make or break sedans for Acura? That couldn't be further from the truth. The base TLX is what's going to keep Acura in business. The Type S is a niche market. It's a way to build up hype for the money maker that's the base model that the vast majority are going to actually purchase. The Type S could be (and likely will be) lagging behind its competitors in every single performance category, but so long as the non-Type S models check the boxes that most consumers want (performance is pretty low on the list for most of the cattle consumers), it's going to do well. This is why Acura never has, and never will be a big contender in the performance market.
You are absolutely right, I'm interested in the new TLX, but not really of the Type S. If I want speed & performance I'll jump on my Suzuki B-King that does 0 to 60 in 2.6.
Have you seen the spyshots of the G80? The interior is pretty much the same and looks like it has the 14.5inch screen. I think I'm getting the GV80 at this point for sure. Just two months ago in was ready to drop the money on the Type S. Acura needed a debut like the GV80 to wow people. Theirs and Infinitis overall perception is lower than Genesis for most enthusiasts and journalists and that's a problem.
I have seen those shots, but they looked old. Curious if the new G80 is just a desk in job with new motor. I am very intrigued with GV80.
You are absolutely right, I'm interested in the new TLX, but not really of the Type S. If I want speed & performance I'll jump on my Suzuki B-King that does 0 to 60 in 2.6.
I'm still holding out for the TLX Type-S to see what's what ... hopefully I'm wrong. Probably not going to be buying another new car for another 2yrs or so, but I do like having a daily that has some decent pep. If the TLX Type-S is a flop, I'll probably pull the trigger on the G70.
No doubt Acura has had lots of issues with the ZF9 transmissopn and other glitches, which show up on the reliability stats. However, when it comes to real reliability, of the close to 20 vehicles I have seen broken down on the side of the road this winter, almost all were Chevs or newish German cars (Audi leading that category), with a few Koreans thrown in, and two very old Honda CRVs. I realize this is completely annecdotal data, but when its -25+ Celsius, that's the kind of reliability and "performance" that is the most important to me.
In regards to the supposed delays for the new TLX, I'm not sure what was ever fact or fiction regarding a release date. Regardless, with only 2 SUVs and 2 sedans (not counting the NSX and assuming the demise of the RLX), they had better get the mainstream TLX as right as possible. A successful more powerful and sporty Type S will certainly help elevate the brand, but will not be the bread and butter vehicle, as several OPs have suggested.
The brand loyalty metric is a lagging indicator because it's computed based on how many owners purchases the same brand. Even if the new MDX and TLX are great on paper, there are so many current owners who have been burned that it's unlikely they'll return immediately. Best case you're looking at 3-4 years out from now where the new owners trade in their cars for this metric to start moving up.
Thanks for pointing this out. I would have if you didn't. These are 2019 results likely of a study around 2015 or 2016 (I looked for, but could not find, details surrounding this study). But it shows middle-of-the-pack loyalty at a point in time when:
The TLX was a brand new model (not a particularly good release)
The MDX was a very aesthetically appealing MMR
Acura historically exceled at loyalty
Acura no longer makes beautiful, performance oriented, luxurious, refined vehicles (I mean, they used to, comparing a Legend, 3.5RL or CL to their respective classes in their top forms and glory days) - so they are literally relying on loyalty to overcome market factors, i.e. quality issues and stiff competition. Being in the pack around the likes of Maserati (borderline exotic and unaffordable to most) and Lincoln (are they even alive still? I speak for all millennials when I say none of use are interested in Lincoln) is not where Acura wants to be.
Originally Posted by F23A4
Seeing as I'm in the demographic that's being subtly disparaged, I'll explain what I was looking for when my managed expectation led me to the 16 TLX 3.5 PAWS and then to the 19 version that succeeded it.
Quite frankly I wanted an Accord V6 EX-L/Touring...
Honestly, very few other sedans in this segment (or even general dimensions) make me pause in consideration of my TLX purchase. At it's price point, maybe a used 340i xdrive, S4 or Q50 3.7 comes to mind as does a low mileage 17 Accord V6 Touring. (At the time, the new Accord 2.0T Touring didnt quite grow on me.) Even then, only the 340i xDrive regularly comes to mind as a future replacement for my current TLX. As far offerings from Hyundai, Lexus, Kia, etc,...Im simply not interested in those brands.
It wasn't subtle. Off the top of my head, you, a35tl, CPR and mapleloaf are satisfied with your TLXs (in some cases, so satisfied that you're on your second or third). I'm sure there are other less active users around here too that I'm forgetting. That's great for all of you. There's no bother counting all the inactive users who left here long ago as a comparison.
Just to be clear, I wanted the same as you. An Accord Touring AWD with a few extras/upgrades. And I may have been okay with my TLX if it weren't for the expressway vibration (which is quite literally intolerable) and my replacement ZF9 (which was wonky but acceptable). What I couldn't handle was the daily or weekly accessories not working, monthly trips to the dealership, recalls, stalls and quality issues I never expected from Acura. I bought my TLX knowing it wouldn't be anything amazing, but it was ultimately an Acura. My realistic expectations were that it would be a decent car for many years. It simply failed to meet by basic transportation needs. Like... working, not vibrating and shifting right, as if I were driving a Jaguar or a Land Rover, not a Honda product. And I wasn't about to settle for inferior reliability and quality on top of already sacrificing for second tier performance and luxury.
Everyone has different needs, wants and expectations - some more exacting than others. Those people who expect the best likely end up with Euros or Lexus. That's their prerogative. Again, it's fine for people to be satisfied with their TLXs. You remind me of the guy who lives around the corner from me. He has three identical Chevy Malibus in his driveway, all grey, all LT, all the same (previous) generation. That car ain't winning any awards, in fact, it lands pretty much at the bottom of any quality and performance list or test out there. But it obviously fits his needs and meets his "managed" expectations so well that he wanted the choice of which of the three to drive any given day.
At it's time, the TLX was one of the few AWD sedans that were on the affordable list with performance and luxury. With the Altima, Camry, Mazda 3 AWD coming in well equipped as well as more performance models such as Stinger, Arteon, G70 etc, the TLX can no longer fetch sales due to weather or performance. Needs to justify itself in quality and features to get a sale now a days.
And this is not even including all the changes to soon come to it's Euro nemesis, A4/330/C
Last edited by pyrodan007; 02-24-2020 at 11:21 AM.
At it's time, the TLX was one of the few AWD sedans that were on the affordable list with performance and luxury. With the Altima, Camry, Mazda 3 AWD coming in well equipped as well as more performance models such as Stinger, Arteon, G70 etc, the TLX can no longer fetch sales due to weather or performance. Needs to justify itself in quality and features to get a sale now a days.
And this is not even including all the changes to soon come to it's Euro nemesis, A4/330/C
True, but the current TLX is also old as balls. Now, if the upcoming TLX can't even beat the current Stinger in quality, materials and performance, then we can all laugh at Acura and tell them no thanks. Acura at the very least has to match the Genesis brand. Sans RWD/RWD-bias driving dynamics of course.
Why are people thinking the Type-S is going to make or break sedans for Acura? That couldn't be further from the truth. The base TLX is what's going to keep Acura in business. The Type S is a niche market. It's a way to build up hype for the money maker that's the base model that the vast majority are going to actually purchase. The Type S could be (and likely will be) lagging behind its competitors in every single performance category, but so long as the non-Type S models check the boxes that most consumers want (performance is pretty low on the list for most of the cattle consumers), it's going to do well. This is why Acura never has, and never will be a big contender in the performance market.
Agree the 330 not the M series pays the bills at BMW. I think the basic TLX has not maintained parity with the basic units of the other manufacturers. Throw in there is no halo M or S performance version & people look elsewhere.
BTW the red highlited statement is incorrect. The 3G was at or near the top of the pile in performance against its peers. Had both a TL 6MT 258HP & a BMW 330 6MT ZHP 235HP at the same time & it was a drivers race in a traffic light grand prix. BMW greatly out handled the TL but that would be a track issue not a street issue.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 02-24-2020 at 12:00 PM.
Agree the 330 not the M series pays the bills at BMW. I think the basic TLX has not maintained parity with the basic units of the other manufacturers. Throw in there is no halo M or S performance version & people look elsewhere.
BTW the red highlited statement is incorrect. The 3G was at or near the top of the pile in performance against its peers. Had both a TL 6MT 258HP & a BMW 330 6MT ZHP 235HP at the same time & it was a drivers race in a traffic light grand prix. BMW greatly out handled the TL but that would be a track issue not a street issue.
I'd argue that even though the 3G faired well against the competitor's models it was specifically targeting, Acura did not have an answer for something like the M3, which precludes it from being in the performance conversation.
I think its bad news for the TLX that Toyota is adding AWD to Camry and Avalon. Toyota AWD probably wont be as good as SHAWD but it would be enough to get me in the door to take a look.
I think its bad news for the TLX that Toyota is adding AWD to Camry and Avalon. Toyota AWD probably wont be as good as SHAWD but it would be enough to get me in the door to take a look.
Speaking of competition, how are you liking the G70?
02-20-2020, 03:35 PM
Its the 5th largest by attendance in the USA and only two hours from Honda’s Marysville plants, but Acura considers it a “regional” show and not a national show. I spoke with the Acura rep, who indicated that it wasn’t clear when the Type S was coming, and generally had no information on offer. This finally convinced me of the rumors, which I had been reluctant to believe, of a delay. I wasn’t expecting much, but I’m still disappointed.
