so what does the resister do? pros/cons of not having one?

 

A few more videos. Thoughts, comments, concerns??

outdoor dyno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwa2z4a8xKo

2nd gear wot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSOn8PFIJs

3rd gear wot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzbmrsEoRWE

 

Top of third is still pretty rich at 10.8:1, 2nd also is still on the rich side, see what your tuner can do to shoot for mid 12s on the AFR

 

7 cel's.. misfire on each cylinder and random misfires. occured during normal driving and not wot. fouled plugs?

 

I hope thats it. It did have a significant misfire in the first videos. Have you been monitoring knock? There should be no WOT without monitoring it.

 

This is what I found regarding NGK plugs

Q: When should I use a resistor spark plug?

A: NGK "R" or resistor spark plugs use a 5k ohm ceramic resistor in the spark plug to suppress ignition noise generated during sparking.

NGK strongly recommends using resistor spark plugs in any vehicle that uses on-board computer systems to monitor or control engine performance. This is because resistor spark plugs reduce electromagnetic interference with on-board electronics.

They are also recommended on any vehicle that has other on-board electronic systems such as engine-management computers, two-way radios, GPS systems, depth finders or whenever recommended by the manufacturer.

In fact, using a non-resistor plug in certain applications can actually cause the engine to suffer undesirable side effects such as an erratic idle, high-rpm misfire, engine run-on, power drop off at certain rpm levels and abnormal combustion.

 

What happens in the videos that indicates a misfire?

No im not monitoring knock. Ive listened to all you guys religiously about monitoring knock. There would be no way I would do what Innacurate is doing by tricking the ecm into giving him full timing at all times and monitoring myself. What I will do is install a knock monitor just to watch what happens and let the ecm do what it has to do to retard timing.

On the other hand, the company that did the R&D on this turbo kit and have worked with the TL's ecm (not rodney himself) have said that the stock knock sensor and ecm will pull timing fast enough with the turbo kit that an aftermarket unit is not needed.

Take it for whats it worth

 

This was from the first dyno day. I think the 2nd dyno day actually took us a step backwards. The heat really killed us

 

heard you raced 2 bikes...

 

The flames out the exhaust aren't good either. Too rich

 

That's all that's needed. Monitor knock while letting the factory ECM protect it to the best if it's ability.

What's all the smoke coming out of the tailpipes during decel? Hopefully not oil because oil smoke on decel is a sign of bad rings.

Be very careful of anyone that says to rely on the factory ecm to control knock. It has a hard time when stock and it won't come close to being able to protect the engine under boost should significant knock occur. It hopefully gives you a little time to lift your foot once the knock detector alerts you.

In the first videos (not the dynos), it was breaking up pretty bad a couple times. This will also show a false rich AF reading.

If you haven't done so, make sure the plugs are gapped smaller than factory. It honestly sounded like an ignition misfire or floating valves, more floating valves. I know there's no real reason for the valves to float and I'm sure I'm off base but that was what it sounded like. Don't worry about that too much.

 

Flames out of the exhaust are ok most of the time. It's usually when it goes from boost to vacuum, fuel cut to idle and it ignites raw fuel in the exhaust. Of course, running rich makes it worse.

 

LOL. I wouldnt call it a race but rather seeing how the car performed under wot since we just came from the dyno. I think the screaming wastegate made them look twice

Regarding the smoke...I dont really know. I think I remember smelling fuel after the run. Could it be excess fuel? It doesnt happen anymore though

Rodney gapped the plugs to .020 I think stock is .044

If you check the previous page you can see a pic of the one of the plugs I pulled yesterday after all the dyno runs.

 

Click here to see a post that I made about spark plugs on Page 82.

 

Sometimes, random misfires = bent exhaust valves. Let's hope that's not the case here!

 

Bert, I agree with KN_TL. The plug in your pic looks good. It is not fouled.

 

bent exhaust valves how do you check for that?

So if the plugs are fine then can anyone explain why the car bogs under light acceleration at 3k rpms in 2nd gear?

Innacurate, are you aware of anyone using the zex plugs?

 

Don't worry about the valves. I had to throw it out there because it honestly sounded like valve float actually. Boost requires a higher spring pressure but at 7psi you should have no worries. Unless you absolutely can't find the misfire issue, bent valves are not your problem.

 

The car did not bog after the first dyno day. It started after the 2nd dyno day. Probably a tunning issue. Not enough fuel at 3000rpms 30mph??

Are there any other things I can check that would be causing a misfire?

 

Fuel, spark, compression.

Too much or not enough fuel. Too much will cause a studder and sometimes black smoke. Not enough will usually cause a lean pop, a backfire through the intake. Most of the time running lean will not give a bad hesitation until you get the intake backfire.

Could be an ignition misfire from a coil or plug.

Compresion could be many things but if it's misfiring under boost and at higher rpms due to a lack of compression it's almost for sure valvetrain.

I would definately start with the AF. When you get below 10:1 under partial throttle you will get the hesitation. Generally running a turbo car leaner down low helps a lot. It will feel like a different car with much faster spool and less of the hiccups like hesitation as it transitions into boost. I'm just not sure if the TL has enough range of tuning to adjust both normal drivability and WOT performance.

 

Monitoring knock was the first thing I asked the mechanic at the dyno. I was just getting the inspection but I was hanging out in the shop. They said they absolutely do and consider it very important as you do. He mentioned that a lot of engines are very sensitive to changes that can induce knock.

 

Won't meth injection ensure no knock, provided you don't exceed the octane level of the mix you are using? I was thinking about knock monitoring but think it might be a waste if I'm spraying meth.

 

When mine was getting tuned I was shown where the meth saved the knock. He did still recommend using one. I guess to know when you can WOT your car?

 

Knock is the end all be all of tuning. It is the bottom line.

You run meth to ensure no knock.

You monitor AF partially for power but mostly to ensure no knock.

Same goes for boost level, charge temps, etc.

You need to monitor the bottom line which is knock. This will mean the difference in a 100,000 mile trouble free setup or a blown engine in 100 miles. You can run a safe AF and you can run meth, both of which reduce the chances of knock. But many things can happen. AF can lean out, sensors go bad, meth can plug up. You HAVE to know if it's knocking or you're tuning in the dark.

 

IHC, Ive always trusted your word and never doubted you when you give me advice. I dont doubt anything your saying about monitoring knock. Let me ask you this...you question the ability of the stock ecu to pull enough timing quickly enough to be consider safe for a boosted application. What does that say when you compare it to rodneys car with I believe of 15000 miles (maybe more or less) on the turbo and no engine problems. Only a broken clutch on his car. He also has many miles logged on the type-s that is boosted as well. Both of those cars are putting down way more power then any of the other turbo TLs. Ive seen a few of the videos that rodney has on his computer with a dash mounted camera and he really pushes those cars hard.

 

It means he has a really good tune and it's not knocking.

A good tune will be trouble free 99% of the time. Or another way of saying it is once you get a good tune, the knock detector is unnecessary for 99% of your driving and racing.

The problem is, all it takes is a second of severe knock to knock out the rings, break a piston, blow a headgasket, etc.

What I did personally before I had a detector was drive around with the laptop monitoring knock under every condition. I then backed off the boost 3-4psi from what I knew I could safely run when I did not feel like having the laptop there for monitoring knock. This way is not the best and it's no substitute for a guage.

You can use knock monitoring as a way to push the envelope. Most engines will take a ton of "clean" power without breaking. Look at all of the supercharged engines that were blown that were barely breaking 300whp with a crappy tune and knock and look at Rodney's reliable 400+ with a good tune.

 

From reading on other forums, there were many guys with highly tuned turbos that were able to early identify a potential ugly situation before any damage occurred. Their knock monitor alerted them that they had purchased a bad tank of gasoline.

And, other guys were saved by the knock monitored alerting them that they had a bad batch of methanol mixture. A guy regularly purchased a certain brand of wiper fluid. But for some reason, the maker of the wiper fluid changed the formula. His engine was knocking with the reformulated wiper fluid. It took him a while to figure out the cause. And, he would had never known if he was not monitoring knock.

 

A few more pics

 

^^ looking good man. i can't wait to spool my j-series.. i want to soooo bad. but i am waiting till i get all the funds to do turbo + darton sleeves + meth. im gonna do everything the first time around

 

I be feeling the turbo blanket shield. Looks kick butt.

The heat wrap on the pipes/hoses looks good too. I like the "all business" look of the wrap.

I have concerns with the nozzle placement. I would be concerned that the mist pattern has insufficient time/distance to become evenly distributed before encountering the Left/Right split in the manifold. One Bank will be getting the bulk of the output while the other Bank is deprived. I would had placed the nozzle at 14"-16" further down, where that long straight away begins after the 90* elbow.

Also, I would had positioned the nozzle at either 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock. The Left/Right split in the manifold is bilateral along vertical axis (12 and 6 o'clock). The spray pattern from the nozzle is also bilateral along vertical axis of the nozzle (12 and 6 o'clock).

Now, if you place the nozzle at 3 or 9 o'clock, you are really looking at a pattern that is not bilateral. The left side or right side of the air stream will have significantly more injection mixture than the other side.

After 4k rpm, the manifold tuning butterfly opens, creating a "single plane" manifold. Will the engine see a homogenous mixture from the common open plenum? For me, I would rather do what I can to insure an even distribution... well, short of direct injection of course.

 

Just want to make our forum aware of the following hazard.

People have hydrolocked their engine from the water/methanol injection system. People will be working on the car, such as doing a boost leakage test, and the injection system will be activated with the engine not running. The water will run/dribble into one cylinder (seeking lowest and easiest path). They turn the starter key, and instant hydrolock damage.

While working on your car, be aware of unintended activation of your injection system while the engine is off.

 

Looks great but I have to agree with Inaccurate. Mount the nozzle on the top or bottom of the uppipe and move it back a good 6-12". From my experience the methanol seems to "flash" when it hits the hot air so you're not going to have an issue with it "falling out" of suspension if you move the nozzle farther back. Give it a little space to do the whole cooling effect and make sure it fully mixes. We did the calculations many years ago so I don't remember exact numbers but the air going through those pipes is going faster than 300mph. It was the CFM vs pipe size. 6" more is not that much but it can be the difference in better distribution and cooling. IMO you want the cooling effects in the charge pipe and IM, not in the combustion chamber for your particular setup (but not always).

Be careful with the blanket on the turbo. This is going to increase your cool down times by quite a bit. It's better to have a shield with an air gap around the turbo. The blanket is great for when it's running but not so good for shutdown. If you have a turbo timer or preluber there are no issues.

I can't wait to see how this runs with the methanol spraying, especially in how much your charge temps go down. I'm betting you're going to be equal or lower than ambient at full throttle.

Anyway, very nice work. I'm not trying to critisize at all, it looks great.

 

That's another reason to move the nozzle back toward the elbow. It's better to have an intercooler full of meth than a cylinder. I've done exactly what you said and it's interesting. Luckily mine pooled into the intercooler and it ran fine while I was warming it up. The first time I went into boost it stuttered and went super rich and finally cleaned up. It wasn't until I popped the hood and saw half a gallon of meth missing that I knew what had happened.

Also, the purge feature is nice if you have it. I always hit the button while idling to make sure the meth is at the nozzle and everything is ready. It should make the engine stumble and want to die when you spray it at idle.

 

I think Bert is running 50/50 WM mixture. So, less flashing than pure methanol.

 

Funny that you should say that. I was going to say that exact thing. But, I edited it out of my reply because I was unsure if hydrolocking could be avoided with the mixture sitting in the intercooler.

For me, this is my planned location for my nozzle for this reason. If mine leaked, it would flow down to the air filter, onto the ground.

 

It seems like for idle and normal driving the air will get past the pooled up meth but not take it up the pipe in liquid form. I can only assume when the airflow becomes great enough it starts taking large amounts of liquid meth with it. But at least this way the rpms are already up there and it's likely to be distributed over many cylinders instead of just one. Good point on Bert's mixture, I had no idea he was running a mix. This should be interesting.

 

Seems like I chose the right place to get my kit. All of the things pointed out where either mentioned by Julio or are in his documentation.

I did pay a premium for this but I am also happy to know as with Rodney, I can go back for technical assistance if needed.

I decided to run a mix as well. I was scared off by the flashing potential.

 

well then god damnit lol.

Snow told me 6 inches from the TB and Im almost positive they made no mention of nozzle placement on the intake tube. I choose that spot because the fuse box was in the way and I didnt even think about the 6 or 12 oclock position.

Im pretty sure I was only going to run a 100ml nozzle just for cooling and detonation condtions. We are not going to "tune" for meth (50/50) to be used as a fuel source.

How about this. Instead of having to plug the original bung, what if I run a dual nozzle setup directly accross from the original? I would use 2 60ml nozzles instead. That should solve the flow directional problems correct?

Is this distance from the TB now really a problem since im using such a small nozzle?

 

regarding the blanket...Ive been using a safe shut down procedure now. The last mile or two before my destination I keep dont push the car and keep the rpms below 2k. I also let the car idle in park for a minute before I turn it off. Good enough?

 

From snow's directions...

"the nozzle assembly should be installed 90* to the direction of air flow. On round intake tubes this is 360* around the tube meaning the nozzle can be mounted in any direction. This will ensure maximum cooling as the nozzle sprays in a cone pattern"