SpicyMikey

I agree. The conversation on this board (and most others I participate on) are definitely skewed to the boy racer perspective. That's not to be meant to be a put down. I was a "boy racer" once and it's a perfectly legitimate perspective and a significant percent of the car buyers. But it's far from the majority of car buyers. In fact, given the fact that 50% of the drivers in the world are female and 2/3 of the male car buyers are over 40, we can pretty much guess that the topic of RWD/FWD, weight distribution, torque, horse power, etc. is on the minds of AT BEST about 15% of the car buyers walking into a dealership.

So what's the point Mike? Point is that I wish boards like this one titled "Automotive News" could be a little broader in perspective. As an industry, it's not all about the few key topics we hear about on here all the time.

dom

Agreed, on all points. It can be difficult at times to remember that your own opinion and perspective isn't necessarily shared by the majority. I know I think I'm always right. And I'll continue to bitch and scream until I see a MT coupled with the V6 in the TSX.

dom

The FMC can't come soon enough for the Insight.

Prius 14,102 -29.2%
Insight 1,858 -22%
HS 165 (stop sale)

SpicyMikey

Oh yea, MT, forgot to add that one to the list

In all seriousness, I think it's a legitimate complaint too. The TSX is geared towards a more youthful buyer who IS probably in their 20's. To help sales, they can't add that configuration fast enough IMO. No sure what the hold up is.

But isn't that's one of Acura's biggest problems from a business perspective? They are not moving fast enough to keep up. When they do act, their products are very good (putting the debate about style aside). If Honda took this brand more seriously it could probably be more than an also-ran. And by taking it seriously, I mean they need to do things to satisfy the "enthusiast" as we hear all the time on here, but they also need to expand the lineup in a significant way and satisfy the more mature buyer which probably makes up the majority of their business now. To compete with Infiniti, let alone Lexus and the germans, they must have a coupe and convertible and 200+ inch full size sedan to replace the mid sized RL. I'm sure a replacement for the NSX would help the brand image as well but I'd do the other models first and then worry about a roadster later.

fsttyms1

To me all that says is the others stepped up their game more than Acura did.

dom

Probably costs. Since the V6 is for North America only, adding another trim level will just run up costs. And I'm sure the figure they won't sell enough to re-coup. IMO they should bite the bullet and accept those loses (or less profits from the TSX) and satisfy those looking for MT.

Agreed, but going by what the CEO has been saying lately, I don't think any of those types of products are coming.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's the problem. The ES has been on the market for so long and has established itself as a comfortable entry level luxury cruiser. The 2g TL and 3g TL on the other hand were known as affordable entry level sporty and luxury sedan. The 4G TL FWD isn't going that direction anymore, and like you are saying, it's similar to the ES now. If people want something like the ES, they would go for the ES, not the TL since the ES is better known in that area and the Lexus brand name helps a lot too.

If Acura toned down the styling of the TL, downsize it a bit, and make it sportier, then I think it will sell better. However, if Acura goes that route, what will differentiate the TSX and the TL? See what I'm getting at here?

Acura is in the middle of reforming/restructuring its product line up. In the short term, I think most people will think Acura models are confusing and consequently think they are lost in direction and think that they are not competitive.

Yes, I think so. It's like school....improving from 90% to 95% doesn't look as good as improving from 50% to 80%.

fsttyms1

I still dont think you can really compare the TL fwd very much to the ES, its still sportier and not as quiet as the lexus.

Also i see no reason they had to make the TSX larger like they did. They should have kept it smaller like it was. If people wanted something a little larger they could have gotten the TL (which they shouldnt have made larger) Larger should have been to the RL.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think you could. Personalities might be a little different but the room, pricing, power, and market is very similar.

Just like you can compare Altimas and Camrys even though their personalities are very different.

JD23

The current FWD non-tech TL is only about $3000 more than the 2004 TL, which amounts to an annual price increase of a little less than 2%. At the low end, there is very little price increase from 3G to 4G, but I do agree that there was a significant increase at the high end of the price range, from $38,500 for the 2008 Type S to $43,000 for the 2009 SH-AWD with tech.

Aside from the increase in size and unpopular styling, I think the most significant difference between the 3G and the 4G is drivetrain competitiveness. When the 3G TL was released, the 258 hp J32 was arguably better than anything offered by the 3 series, G35, A4 and CTS. Although the J37 is not a bad powerplant, it is bested by engines offered by the 335, G37 and IS350, and is similar in performance to several other engines. Furthermore, the 5AT went from acceptable in 2003 to archaic in 2008. Acura has to offer something better than pedestrian powerplants if it is going to overcome its styling handicap.

phile

thank you. and btw danielgr @ TOV is one of the biggest Honda pacifist/quintessential fanboy, so I would not take one of his "analysis" with a grain of salt.

F23A4

I believe you have to compare them on paper as both are notable entries in the same segment. But do I get the gist of your post in that two decidedly different types of buyers opt for one or the other between these two.

VTEC Racer

Toyota/Lexus suffered the greatest drop in sales than any other manufacturer. Toyota lost the most out of all mainstream brands and Lexus lost the most out of all luxury brands.

PortlandRL

So this explains the lot literally packed with HS250s outside my Lexus dealer. They probably have 60 or 70 of them crammed in there, just sitting getting sun tans. I can totally understand it, though. My mom got one as a loaner when her RX was in for service and my God....what a piece of crap. I didn't drive it but was unimpressed with the plastic and even fit and finish seemed sub-par, especially for a Lexus. My mom told me the thing was essentially impossible to drive smoothly. No wonder they aren't selling.

biker

They had the global market in mind when they designed the Euro Accord. For that, the Euro Accord had to grow - in the world outside of the US, the Euro Accord is a large sedan.

With the platform whoring every maker is using, there are only so many way you can change things. Until the TL gets divorced from the USDM Accord platform, its sized will be dictated by it.

majin ssj eric

Wow. Greatest drop in sales of any manufacturer and yet still nearly 4k more units than Honda!

I bet Toyoda stays up at night sweating about their "Canadian" sales!!!

mrdeeno

It's not platform whoring, it's badge engineering by Honda. They could have made a smaller car than the Euro accord based on the same platform, but that actually requires more work than rebadging.

Look at Nissan's FM platform. the new 370Z is actually smaller/lighter than the previous gen, while the same platform can handle large car duty for the fuga/M.

How can Honda's size range be so small for each platform, yet Nissan's be so wide?

SpicyMikey

You're right. Sharing a platform is not as limiting as it sounds. Acura built the TL that size because that was what they wanted. It could have been smaller and still been on the same global platform. Years ago a "platform" truly meant something physical and was actually chassis sharing. Nowadays I think it's much more component based and a "platform" is really nothing more than the shared collective specs and components which define the drive train, suspension, primary structural components for the underbody, etc. oif a family of cars It's much more modular than the "old days"

Colin

Doesn't that mean that you should take what he says with a grain of salt?

SSFTSX

TSX is not bigger than Audi A4/G37. and next BMW 3/IS will increase in length.
TL has to grow up to BMW 5/Audi A6 siz & still handles better than both of them.
I highly doubt TL is going to be shrink much from current size even in 5G. it will still be atleast 190inch car.

Belzebutt

Holy crap, I never knew that Canadians buy domestic in those numbers...


The big three are still the big three here!

chungkopi

lol at craigslist.

I misinterpreted what Krafcik said. He said over half of Genesis sold is over 40k. meaning avg. transaction will most likely be in high 30's. not bad at all for a non korean luxury brand.

http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/eq...n-krafcik.html

so p

SSFTSX

stick price is not transaction price. 50% of 2300 is 1100 sales of V8. with true delta price of $37K for V8.

chungkopi

just browsed through genesis priced paid forum in edmunds. 36-39k avg transaction price is the ball park. it's definitely not low to mid 30's. so comparing genesis to CC(forgot who did) is ridiculous. different audience and almost 5k more than CC's avg.

for v6 - 33k to 37k (v6 with tech package is most popular)
for v8 - 37k to 40k

fsttyms1

The TSX should have stayed small and nimble like Gen 1! Not the bloated damn near the size of the TL car it is The TL should have stayed 2g/3g size, not this large version it is and competed with the 3 series. The RL should have been the 5 series size and remained that size as it in no way can compete with the LS/7 series.

Edward'TLS

Pricewisely, the TSX is being compared with the A3, 1-series. The TL with the A4, 3-series, C-class, Infiniti-G, Lexus-IS. The RL with the A6, 5-series, E-class, Infiniti-M, Lexus-GS.

When the days come the TSX was being compared with the A4/3-series/C-class,G, IS; and the TL with the A6/5-series/E-class/M/GS; Acura would be very, very, very, very happy because then it had succeeded to become a true luxury brand.

So any comparison of the TSX with the A4/G37/3/IS, and the TL with the 5/A6, means absolutely nothing.

SSFTSX

Honda Euro Accord is pretty competive with 4cylinder of A4/BMW 3 and surpass IS in diesel engine refinement.
Honda hasnt updated its transmission and engine line up for V6. once it is done in 2012-2013. it would be better. I dont see any reason TSX-SH-AWD pulling less than 0.99g. much more than BMW M3. once BMW 3 grow in size it has to implement AWD to be competitive.

mrdeeno

I guess we've gone beyond the realm of mag-racing and entered the zone of vapor-racing.

I heard the 2012-2013 ford focus is gonna pull 1.9g on the skidpad!

Whatdya say to that!

SSFTSX

Ford has $35b debt on its balance sheet and it is due 2012. and has already shed most of its Premier auto group. Ford will be mostly competing with Hyundai. as its Fusion hybrid sales will decline with Sonata Hybrid.
Only cash rich brands like Audi and Honda can produce high quality products independently.

dom

Legend2TL

Interesting how the S-class has fallen to 4th place behind the LS, 7-series, and Panamera. And the S-class is only a couple years old in design.....

And Audi is doing very well with the A5/S5, really surprised the Vette sells fewer than the Audi. I'd bet GM is working overtime now getting the Vette back into competition it's sales numbers are off by almost 3 to 1 from 2006. The C6 is a great performer but the interior still needs some improvement for a car in it's price range.

Slightly old article but still applies today

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/01/...s-sputter.html

fsttyms1

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The S-Class was first unveiled in 2005 and went on sale in 2006, so it's definately in the latter years of its cycle.

The fourth place drop is surprising, nevertheless.

Legend2TL

Oh so true. Many times while reading the threads on comments on what people think the auto manufactures should design and produce brings me back to the Simpson's episode where Homer designs a car for his brother's company and winds up ruining the business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh_Brot...re_Art_Thou%3F

SSFTSX

LS no longer competes with S class. S Class transaction prices are closer to $90K.
LS is more in $60k to $65k region. I would not be surprized if some dealers are distributing even cheaper than that.
Car is too bland and handles like boat. Only saving grace is all the latest technology like 8speed auto, DI, auto parking etc.


BMW 7 has introduced cheaper 6 six cylinder.
Lexus cannot compete beyond $70k price as LX sales have fallen way too low once its priced crossed $70k. Lexus is not a brand that is going upmarket.

PortlandRL

Just when I thought you had run out of stupid things to say....

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Can someone just hand me moderator power so I can silence this fuck and get my powers revoked?

This is getting old and it's obvious trolling. I love the mods here but I know of no other forum (though I haven't visited many) where the moderators would put up with someone so widely disliked.

Colin

There is nothing being said here that hasn't been said every month by the same people for years.

TSX69

Atho I do not always agree or even understand what SSFTSX says most of the time, I would not consider her/him a troll ... there are others on here that I think more deserve that title. His/her posts are usually mature/respectful & on topic (@ least @ the beginning) ... & s/he seems to actually be a fan of Acura on what is supposed to "the unofficial Acura enthusiast resource". Trolls, to me, would be the people who are on here just to make snide comments or cheap shots @ Honda/Acura (even when they have nothing to do w/ topic on hand), insult/flame others etc etc

Back on topic:

The Top of July 2010
1. Ford F-Series 50,449
2. Toyota Camry 35,056
3. Chevrolet Silverado 34,664
4. Toyota Corolla 27,345
5. Honda Accord 25,386
6. Honda Civic 23,902
7. Dodge Ram 20,138
8. Chevrolet Malibu 20,458
9. Honda CR-V 20,058
10. Nissan Altima 18,275

phile

yes, I was typing at night and it came out all wrong. but you got the gist.