Isn't the Accent more of a competitor to the City? Subcompacts and all where as the Civic competes with the Elantra and Kia Forte.

The new Fiesta may trounce the Fit, one of the last if not THE last area in the US market where Honda still has a healthy lead on the competition. The Focus and new products from Hyundai will bring down the Civic, which isn't even a huge leader anymore anyway. The Sonata, Fusion, and Malibu are wearing on the Accord.

Depressingly it seems like Honda could be in a death ball. The 2011 Odyssey, 2012-2013 Ridgeline/Pilot, and 2012 Civic along with the 2013 Accord need to be AMAZINGLY good if Honda wants a big piece of the cake anymore.

 

Honda does not want to be Toyota. Otherwise it had enough cash to buy Nissan/Suzuki/Mitsubishi combined.
Mitsubhish has good 4WD truck/SUV heritage along with DI/turbo tec. the most winner of Paris Dakkar ralley.

Acura TL is atleast invited to compete agains S4/335 even if it come third for various reasons.
but Hyundai and Lexus are not even invited. they are not even competing against that category.

I am not passionate. i am giving you logical reasons behind profits.
There is pricing and model mix behind those profits. Companies like GM/Toyota/Hyundai operate differently than Honda.

proble with ZDX is not its looks but its $50K price tag. It is less utility than MDX so it should have started lower than MDX.
Honda can afford smaller sales on it as it shares most of components with MDX.
City is like Mini TSX with its flat design. New Elantra is just like Mazda3. it wont rise to Honda Civic level.
there is not that much investment behind Insight as it shares alot with Fit and Civic hybrid IMA. so its sales wont effect profits.

your over estimating the impact of those Hyundai designs. you dont have idea of upcoming competition from VW.

 

VW will never be a superpower in the American market without reliability, which they lack enough of.

 

Fit has tremendous utility that no car in this segment can match. People will buy for this reason. It is priced in Elantra/Focus range. so it should compete with those cars not with Accent/Versa. which is $10k .

 

Maybe the hatch does but the Accent sedan is over 13 grand starting.

Accent - Fit - Rio - Aveo - Fiesta - Yaris

Elantra - Civic - Forte - Cruze - Focus - Corolla

Speaking of VW, they need to bring the Polo and the GTI trim over.

 

they are approaching 25k a month without a factory in US.
once US specific midsize sedan with diesel introduce. expect it to double. VW has huge model line up coming than any other automaker in the world.

 

Yeah they can release a huge onslaught but the products often slump soon after. Remember Nissan's huge push that started in the early 00s with the new Z, Altima, etc.? Well where'd that go? Nissan went up but still didn't run Honda or Toyota anywhere near out of the game like they claimed they would.

You can have a ton of new product but that's not remotely a guarantee of anything. VW is less reliable on the whole than Nissan, which that alone will hurt them. How many people do you know that buy Japanese or American mainstream brands that immediately dismiss VW because of costs you have AFTER the purchase? A lot of them.

 

FIT starting price is $15.7k for 1.5L engine
Accent sedan starting price is $13.7K for 1.6L engine.

 

this is not VW of yesterday. they have 8 vehicles on CR recommended list. diesel is hugely popular. new hybrid Toureg is coming. they have alot high price momentum going on. similar to Audi. VW is on its way to 300K mark this year. Nissan after bankruptcy was always on cost cutting. They never had money to match the wealthier japanese brands.

 

Pull a grand off of that Fit price. That's with the automatic.

Either way Fits are getting overpriced. $19,100 for a Fit with nav? Get real. The 2011 Fiesta will start at $13,220.

 

The VW of today is still not reliable man. Yeah they have some outliers but a Jetta or Passat are still riddled with electrical problems.

Even if that wasn't the case, the insane maintenance costs and repair costs scare people away as well. It isn't just reliability. They're just plain expensive to have work done. Look at a Passat. Some dealers won't even touch loaded Passats and will send you to an Audi dealer! At least around here.

Nissan has the finances now to put more money into their quality control and interiors. They just haven't. Their engines still suck, or at least many of them. LL the VQ!

 

I doubt that much reliability problem. 25k sale is not small a month. otherwise alot of people would be complaining like Toyota. things seems pretty quite. they dont even have brake wear issue. and various Magazines on long term tests have given them thumbs up.

 

well i've seen plenty of IS350 vs. germans comparisons. Lexus is getting there, but they just can't match German's superb chasis. and IS350 is been there for awhile. it needs to be redesigned.

and why would they invite hyundai? Hyundai is not a luxury brand. and hyundai doesn't have anything remotely close to S4/335i. Genesis is a luxury cruiser. it's a bigger lexus GS. i don't mind genesis coupe going against germans, but at the end of the day it's half the price of those 2 cars.

personally i think genesis coupe v6 track is the best sports car under 30k. It will hold its own against the germans as it did against G37coupe and american v8 muscle cars. it just doesn't have the interior material to compete with 50k cars, but as far as driving dynamics go, it's much more fun than any of honda/acura right now IMO especially honda no longer makes s2000. i would love to see gen coupe v6 track 335i comparison. gen coupe won't win it, but it will hold its own. i've driven both cars. gen coupe is a sweet car. g37coupe is a better car, but gen coupe is more fun to drive than g37 coupe. Hyundai just need to fix the front(i like it, but polarizing to many) and it will do better in sales. but obviously gen coupe is only attracting an import tuner crowd. very small market IMO. but the mission is accomplished because hyundai has the street cred they desperately wanted. definitely not a perfect car, but it's the car that has converted me to become a huge hyundai fan. if they can give a GDI treatment to 3.8 then we are going to see first sub 5.0 korean car. 365hp genesis coupe? that sounds like an awesome bargain.

I think you've never driven gen coupe v6 track. you should give it a try. it feels like E46 M3. well, almost. no doubt, steering feel is all bmw. no other cars feel like bmw than genesis coupe IMO. they did benchmark M3, you know? even though it's vastly underpowered against the american muscle cars, it took 2nd place because it just felt like a great friggin car. yes, almost every experts in M/T thinks gen coupe v6 track is better than both camaro v8, SRT8, and mustang v6. that's probably the biggest accomplishment ever by a hyundai. i know sonata is doing great and all, but I think it's the genesis coupe which will make a bigger impact in a long run.

 

well Accord V6 coupe has reached 0-100mph in 13.6 sec on heavier all season tires. It is in G37 territory. and this from only 270bhp regular fuel.
steering has only 2.5 turns lock to lock

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...bc73f00eba.pdf





it is not bad for its price and performance. it dont have VCM.

 

Honda has the technology in aerodynamics and performance boost. just change to summer performance tires. this kind of trick company with deep R&D can do. hiding its lenght and width.

Even Edmunds test pretty much confirm the performance.

 

In the Motorweek 8 way family sedan shoot out the Accord didn't even make the final 4 cut and a Kia that no one heard of was third - Sonata won.

Of course car rag/show recommendations don't always translate to better sales.

 

Hmm... 16MPG?

 

^ I have him on ignore, but that's the CR-V's gauges, not a VW

 

Well I can say this about Nissan, especially since I have a 2010 Maxima SV! Some of their I4 engines are not that great, except for the one in the Altima, but their 3.5L V6 engines are wonderful. The 290HP engine in the Maxima is great, plenty of pick-up and with the CVT, I'm getting 26-28mpg avgs on almost 300hp and over 260lbs of torque, that is definitely something not to sneeze at! Their V6 engines still are makings Wards 10 best engine's list, along with the 3.7L's from Infiniti and the one in the Z. I used to feel that there interior's were utter crap, but that was pre-2007. Since 2007, their interior quality is very good, not Honda class leading, but the interior in the current Altima, Murano, and Maxima is much better quality, fit/finish etc then some of the current Toyota models, ie Camry, RAV-4, etc. I would say that Nissan interior quality is on the level right now of Hyundai, Ford and Subaru, better than Toyota and Chevrolet, but still just below Honda.

I mean Nissan is not on the level of Honda or Toyota obviously in reputation or sales obviously and a lot is model specific. I have no problem recommending the Altima, Maxima, Rogue, Murano, and Z. I consider these models of very good quality, fit/finish, reliability, and overall reputation. The other models Nissan offers though are a hit or a miss. Part of the reason why Nissan's overall reliability as a brand is lower than the rest still is due to their pick-ups and SUVs! To put them bluntly, they suck. The quality, reliability, and refinement is just not there and they are what is keeping Nissan's reliability down as a whole. They need to do what they did with the Quest. Gut them and completely redesign them from the ground up or get rid of them completely. The Quest was terrible but at least Nissan gutted it and completely redesigned it for 2011.

Plus, their new models thus far, like the Cube and GT-R are doing very well, and the quality and performance for their price points are very well. You can't say that Nissan interiors are crap anymore, except maybe on the models I previously mentioned that are problems for Nissan (Versa, pick-ups, and SUVs!). Are their a couple of minor areas for improvement, of course, but I think they are competitive with most of their competition now, unlike pre 2007! I mean the Maxima's interior now is Infiniti quality of about 2-3 years ago so that is a nice change! I love my Maxima!

Personally, I like the sales and position Nissan is in. I don't want them to pass Honda, etc! The companies that are or have been number 1 in this country, GM, Ford, and Toyota are the ones who have had the most problems, recalls, etc!

 

It depends what they were emphasis in testing. In interior space, refinement and fuel economy. Accord will be top. and Magazine tests do matter if it consistently won over a decade of time. Like BMW 3 and Honda Accord in C&D for ever winners.
Accord Coupe is faster than Genisis coupe in straight line on all season tires and beat in comfort and refinement. only 0.2g difference on skid pad.

 

It's ironic that you mention the Maxima because that's the only non-sportscar Nissan makes that I think is of real quality. The Maxima, 370Z, and GT-R are the only Nissans I think are of serious quality.

The rest of their lineup is a bunch of blah and hohum. They tried to expand their lineup to run with Toyota and GM but have failed.

 

different cars for different people. gen coupe is a sports car and accord coupe is mature midsize coupe. FWD vs. RWD etc, etc.

 

Yeah, the Maxima was really the only one of their products I was interested in, especially as an alternative to the 4G TL ! I liked the Altima to but that was a mainstream family sedan and I didn't want a car that has high sales like that since you see a ton of them on the road! But the Maxima was nicer, better looking, and more refined than the Altima in every way so it was a no brainer come time to decide!

 

By the way I've been meaning to ask you, how has the reliability been on your wife and your Audi's over the years? I'm really liking what I'm seeing with Audi and might cross shop them next time around but my only hesitation is long-term reliability. I've been trying to ask as many people as I know who have Audi's how they have been?

 

both V6/6MT but Accord is super refined, faster. more fuel efficient and u have to give thumbs up to the design team. It seems that new Kia is copy of Accord lines.
it look like a new CL but under Honda name with 3 spoke steering wheel, very sharp turns lock to lock.

 

you don't have to post accord coupe pics everytime. we all know how accord coupe looks like.


again different cars for different people. but if they are tested on C/D they factor in everything including 'gotta have it factor'. Gen coupe wins the comparison 9 out of 10 times IMO because they are car enthusiasts and not consumer's digest. Accord couldn't even beat Sonata, so how da hell they would beat Gen Coupe? M/T has Genesis Coupe #2 among 7 muscle cars(although gen coupe ain't muscle cars). Accord is a FWD midsize sedan coupe. it obviously isn't tuned to satisfy enthusiasts need for speed and desire. and no, Accord coupe is not faster than gen coupe.

and from my observation, Sonata is now the bench mark, not Accord. Sonata has yet to lose to accord in any comparisons. from every publications. Accord was the perennial C/D favorite, but even they couldn't just give it to Accord anymore. Edmunds always gave it to Accord, but Sonata stole its crown.

more reason to believe Honda is on a red alert.

 

Correction - Sonata doesn't make v6 it was battle of 4 bangers.. so diregard what i said about sonata and accord.


anyway, Accord coupe is my current favorite Honda, but I'll take RWD over FWD anytime anyday. i'm kinda sick of FWD. i had too many of them.

 

They've been long term reliability nightmares.

JK

Actually I've never owned an Audi. I also buy Japanese but she insists on Audis for herself, which is fine. She had a 1998 or something A4 briefly before and early into our marriage. Never had anything wrong as far as I knew. She had a 2002 A6 after that for roughly seven years and bought brand new. When it was traded in it had just shy of 100,000 miles and the driver's seat belt needed to be replaced because the slack wouldn't pull it back up against the pillar. Other than that, just regular maintenance. Her 2009 A4 only has somewhere over 10,000 miles and has been fine so far.

On the flip side my Infiniti I30 was good, my Lexus was perfect, but my Acura blew its transmission into a billion pieces at 35,000 miles. So to my knowledge:

3 Japanese: blown tranny

3 Audis: replaced seatbelt

I still admit Audi has reliability problems but I certainly admit as well that ours have been just gems.

 

i'll take the bait



So kia ripped off accord huh? oh well, it just a kia.


and my final contribution.





adios.

 

so you now agree that Honda still making cars for enthusiasts. Accord Coupe may be the fastest Honda to date.right on par with NSX.

On MT 0-100mph run was achieved in 13.4 seconds beating 13.6sec of C&D and pulling 0.88g.


Hyundai genesis has 2.7 turns lock to lock. Accord Coupe has 2.44 turns.

Accord coupe beats it in 0-100mph run and in quarter mile. Gensis has performance tires. Accord has heavier all season tires.
there is only 0.2g difference in curves.

Genesis 6MT is not impressive either.

 

this is no so impressive in real pix. no one knows its refinement with tubo engine and how window noise is hushed in such shape

 

Pretty quickly a certain someone is going on my ignore list .....

 

having fast 0-60 or 1/4 mile isn't everything. mustang v6 and all of detroit v8s are much faster than genesis coupe ever will be. mustang v6 smoked genesis coupe in the drag race too. but only spankin new mustang GT was favored over genesis coupe. I agree with them. sometimes it's not about the stats. you can list all the short comings on genesis coupe. i already said it's not a perfect car. it's far away from being perfect. it just need to be fine tuned. it's hyundai's first attempt, you know?

and no, accord/altima coupe isn't for enthusiasts IMO. those are sporty coupes. and dude, you don't have to cite those stats. I already know how accord coupe drives. accord coupe has nothing to do with 'sports' IMO. I also know how Genesis Coupe drives unlike you do. genesis coupe is closer to 370z/g37coupe/e46 M3 then accord/altima coupe. two very very different cars.

 

non-turbo optima will drive just like sonata. maybe little sportier because kia is trying to be the sporty/young brand while hyundai is aiming for more 'premium' brand. and i've driven both new sorento and forte coupe. Kia is getting very very close. If I was a market for a nice SUV under 30k, sorento would be top of my choice. and they seem to know how to make a car quiet. Sorento's 0-70 mile cruise was 59dBA. that's a Lexus LS territory. quieter than BMW 7 series, and much quieter than accord. Optima will be ok.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/new-y...ptima/#2854365
bunch of real life pics. looks good to me. Optima probably made the most noise in NY autoshow. it's a shocker because current Optima is the most forgettable car in the road today IMO.

 

so you know more than the Motor trend when they use the word "Sport Coupe". Sport does not mean harsher ride. Honda has GT suspension tuning in Euro Accord. but not in Type S. 6MT Accord Coupe is quietter than Sedan just because of better aerodynamics.

No BMW can pull 0.88g without Sport suspension. Only Accord Coupe can do it.

 

It must be a typo on some road test. Edmunds also gave 57 dba to TL-SH-AWD 6MT which is not correct for 6MT
http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...full-test.html

 

As i said only profitable companies spaning over decades can maintian positive relationships.


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...atestheadlines
OF DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

DETROIT (Dow Jones)--Ford Motor Co. (F) led the U.S. auto makers in one of their strongest years for improved supplier relationships but there are already signs the vehicle makers may be returning to their old tactics of threats and intimidation now that the economic recession is easing.

Ford became the first U.S. auto maker to break into the top three vehicle manufacturers with the best supplier relations in the 10 years of the annual Supplier Workers Relations Study. The study, conducted by Planning Perspectives based in Birmingham, Mich., ranked Ford in third place passing Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. which fell to fourth.

General Motors Co., which finished fifth, had the biggest year-over-year improvement in the group rising 25% while Chrysler Group LLC finished last but also improved year-over-year. Honda Motor Co. Inc. and Toyota Motor Co. continued to outpace their U.S. rivals finishing first and second. However, this was the third consecutive year both auto makers reported a year-over-year drop in their scores.

The annual study, conducted by Planning Perspectives based in Birmingham, Mich., tracks supplier perceptions of their working relations across 14 commodity purchasing areas. About 510 suppliers participated.

The scores are important because the better the relations the more cutting edge technology and cost reductions the auto maker receives from the auto parts supplier making them more competitive.

Honda received a 340 score out of a possible 500 followed by Toyota with 330, Ford at 264, Nissan at 249, GM with 228 and Chrysler at 187.

Ford Group Vice President of Global Purchasing Tony Brown credits the improved finish to the auto maker's commitment in allowing suppliers to be profitable and win more contracts. Brown has designed a list of top suppliers who are promised more business parts if they continue meeting internal perimeters.

"It's good news but we still have far to go," Brown said.

John Henke, CEO of Planning Perspectives which conducts the survey, said it is good for the U.S. auto makers but they should be wary rather than celebratory.

"They shouldn't spend their time congratulating themselves," Henke said. "They need to get back and redouble their efforts. We are already beginning to hear anecdotally that the U.S. auto makers are returning to their old ways."

Henke said Toyota and Honda have slipped but both auto makers will likely improve next year since they already are focusing on the issue.

Historically GM, Chrysler and Ford have been at odds with their auto suppliers demanding price cuts on parts and threatening to move contracts. In the past few years, the three auto makers have been attempting to improve their relationships. The auto makers relied heavily on their suppliers to continue sending product especially when GM and Chrysler filed for bankruptcy protection last year.

"This is now the moment of truth for the domestics," Henke said. "Can they stay the course and keep on, or will they forget and drop back."

GM's Vice President of Global Purchasing Bob Socia said he is confident the company is "on the right track" in improving working relations. GM has pledged to share half of its saving with any parts supplier that submits an idea or part that cuts costs on a vehicle.

While Chrysler said it is working to fix its internal processes and talk with suppliers in a transparent, fair and collaborative way.

"The intense activity that we started in November to improve supplier relations and deliver more value from these critical partnerships is clearly paying off," the company said in a statement. "We will continue to drive fairness and accountability on both sides of the table."

 

If only I could put people on ignore.

 

^^^How about banning????

 

As much as we all disagree with SSFTSX he's done nothing worthy of a ban. In fact, quite the opposite. He is constantly told how wrong he is, insulted etc yet has not once lashed out in a similar manner. This goes back a couple of years now.

He just keeps posting what he believes are facts. I admire his perseverance although I wish he would get a clue.