smarty666

While don't get me wrong, I personally like Audi, I have seen no indication, after looking up sales figures for the last 3 years and so far for 2010, Audi coming anywhere close to beating Acura, BMW, MB, or Lexus for sales in this country and I'm not sure its going to happen any time soon. Maybe in the next 10 years maybe and that is stretching it!

smarty666

Agreed on tier 0 and I don't really talk about them so almost everyone in this country can not afford them, myself included!

I would again disagree on Audi. Just as you pointed out about Lexus, currently Audi might be Teir 1 everywhere else, but its Tier 2 in the US, at least with its current models/sales numbers, and long-term reliability issues.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Studies such as the one I posted certainly suggest that the mass public view Audi as on the level of Jaguar, BMW, and Mercedes.

Also, reliability and sales figures do not equate to percetions of tiers. Audi is an example of the former and Jaguar is an example of both. Horrible, but still very prestigious.

Lastly I'd point out that Audi's figures aren't terribly different. Considering they are rolling out a new A8 very soon and a new A6 with an A7, expect to see some additional growth.

smarty666

Yeah, but I'm not going by what one article from MSN is saying about this stupid tier status is. From the people I know who have BMW and MB, they feel while they have improved, Audi is not on their level and I tend to agree. If reliability and sales figures don't equate to anything then I'd really like to know what does? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I'd really like to know because everyone gives a different answer. I would think it be a mixture of not just reliability and sales but quality, reputation, offerings, etc. But personally, I've never understood how BMW, MB, and to a great extend Audi are thought of so greatly when a large majority of people have reliability problems with their products soon after the warranty period is over. I've not only read on here, edmunds, etc, but from family and friends with german automobiles sit there and tell me, "oh I love my BMW, MB, and Audi, but I would never own this outside of warranty? Does the car fall apart at 5-6 years old costing thousands of dollars in repair? Is that what I'm suppose to pay for with tier 1 status?

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Audi sales numbers. The YTD annual totals from the last 3 years and the sales numbers for this year thus far are no where near Acura, BMW, MB, and Lexus. I don't understand how the general public in the US can consider them on the same level as those three big wigs when they don't have the sales to back it up, just like Infiniti, yet they are higher than Infiniti? That makes no sense and there is definitely then a double standard with Audi and Infiniti!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You are talking about brands overall, not perception. You listed reputation for the tiers. Reputation is ALL that counts and other things make up what a brand's reputation is. As we all know the tiers don't exist, because how could they? BMW and MB are both tier one and yet MB is more prestigious than BMW. And so tiers are just how people view them. Sales, quality, etc, go into reputation which is the only real deciding factor as that's what the tiers represent: reputation.

That is not the only survey that suggests that and you are making a mistake if you're suggesting I am basing my thoughts off of one survey. Also, having an Audi in the garage and having had them before as well as knowing a lot of people with German cars, I can say their poor quality reputation just isn't to the levels such as people like you claim.

As for sales, you miss the point again. How can sales count as a company's tier or reputation? So being as Rolls-Royce sells less vehicles than Lexus then they are of a lower tier? Jaguar and Audi are higher in reputation and tier than Acura or Infiniti. The people say so. Is it right? No. Does it even matter? No. But it is what it is.

SSFTSX

RX is middle of MDX and RDX. It is not equal to MDX. It will be only equal to MDX when MDX introduce cheaper version with Pilot 4WD and FWD MDX along with 5 seater versions at $35K starting point. There is nothing like Sh-AWD in RX. And MDX dont offer Hybrid yet.

SSFTSX

Again A4/A5 combine is 4800.
BMW 3 series is 8000 but BMW has diesel which is 10% to 20% of sale and BMW has M3 from sedan to Coupe.
A4/A5 combo surpass MB C , Infiniti G and Lexus IS.

Second Q5 is closing on sale to X5.
New A6/A7/A8 is going to put big dent in BMW 5/7 series sales.
And Audi is not waiting there is A3 sedan on pipeline along with newer Q7.
once Audi fills all the segments with new cars. Sale volume will be closer to BMW and by that time Audi would have practically thrown out BMW from world stage anyway. BMW will have no choice but to be bought off by VW group. u cannot survive independent luxury brand with less than $5B profit a year on World level. US market alone will not save BMW brand.
BMW is not Honda that can sell in millions in India and China. and have further milllions in two wheeler business.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

There is some Audi Kool-Aid consumption going on within this thread ....

biker

^ it is not totally unjustified. If the outside of the US sales numbers are any indication, Audi is slowly on its way to catch and perhaps even surpass MB and BMW.

smarty666

I really like the new Q5. It is a great size and I like the interior and exterior styling much better than the RX350! It was nice to see Audi kick BMW's ass the last several comparison tests by Car and Driver! I've always liked the design and features of Audi better than BMW! I'm not saying that BMW makes crap products of course, I just prefer Audi styling over BMW. I have never cared for the X3 or X5. Again, not a fan of BMW styling and ergonomics, especially on the interior!

I used to really like Mercedes, I even had a loaded up C-class a few years back, but I've been disappointed with the amount of cheap plastic pieces they've been gradually introducing into their interior's over the past few years. I don't see Audi or BMW doing it to the extent that MB has been. But the bigger throne in my side with MB is how low to the ground the C and E class are getting each year. I have major back problems with several surgeries and ground clearance is a huge factor in this. I wouldn't want anything lower to the ground then what my 2008 TL is. That is just about at my limit to how low to the ground I can go with a sedan!

I do like the new GLK though. That crossover is just the perfect height off the ground for me! Do you know that in CR, that thing got an almost perfect reliability score and automatically was put on their recommendation list right after the 1st year! Glad to see MB reliability improving, now if they could only carry that over to the C and E class!

smarty666

Agree on just about everything though and I do agree about Jaguar reptutation and prestige being higher than Acura, Infiniti, and Caddy but I still contend that Audi is just not quite on the level of the big 3 yet!

Though I do agree, within the next 5-6 years, I think Audi could move into tier 1 status. They are definitely ahead of Infiniti in most regards, especially now since their overall sales have passed Infiniti but they seem to be quickly moving up and I believe will be the first to reach the tier 1 status with the four others. Infiniti, if they play their cards right, might move up in 10-15 years from now. Acura and Cadillac I'm not quite sure about. Acura will definitely take a lot longer than Audi and Infiniti to move up but I'm relatively young enough but I think in my lifetime they will.

Right now:

Tier 1: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar
Tier 2: Audi, Infiniti
Tier 3: Acura, Cadillac

5 years from now:

Tier 1: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar, Audi
Tier 2: Infiniti, Maybe Acura
Tier 3: Cadillac

10-15years from now:

Tier 1: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar, Audi, Infiniti
Tier 2: Acura, Cadillac

20+ years from now:

Tier 1: BMW, MB, Lexus, Jaguar, Audi, Infiniti, Acura
Tier 2: Cadillac (with strong signs of moving up)

Just keep in mind this above is entirely subjective and opinion based but its what I personally feel, but as we all have discussed what we constitute as luxury is influenced by so many different factors and opinions. One rich snob might tell you the true luxury is MB, Lexus, and Infiniti, while someone else might tell you BMW, Audi, Jaguar, etc etc. It can vary so much!

SSFTSX

Your ranking is totally wrong. Comparably equiped A4/A5/Q5 or even A6 which are bulk of Audi sales are more expensive than BMW/MB products on average price basis. Audi has super car like R8 which is good sales
Consumer precieved them as higher value. So Audi is Tier 1 in US.
bulk of Lexus sales are RX/ES/IS and add even LS which are lowered price than German counterpart. The moment lexus up the price to Audi level. its sales will collapse. The brand simply dont have that value.
Even Acura is higher brand than Lexus. as 40% of its sales come from MDX whose quantity of sales surpass combine sales of GX/LS/LX/IS-F/SC. it is the hgiher value in mix that define tier status.

smarty666

Your talking crazy talk man but I really don't care. You don't seem to get it, I'm giving my opinion and assessment and their is nothing incorrect or correct about it because ITS OPINION. Take a chill pill!

I could say the same thing about what you just said, Audi is not tier 1 in this country yet. You might think it is, but just go ask a BMW, MB, and Lexus owners and they'll tell you they are not but most likely they are most impressed with Audi and that they will be their very shortly. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that, despite the fact I completely disagree with it, but you don't have a right to just come on and not constructively and politely disagree with someone's opinion and just rudely come out and put them down in that what they think is wrong or incorrect.

You say my opinion is incorrect, which it is not, and then you say something that Lexus prices are not the same as Audi and they will collapse when they do? I've never heard of something so ridiculous and incorrect in my life. Lexus prices, for the most part are right on par with Audi and they sell almost 3 times as much as Audi does right now. What difference does it make among what products, it doesn't. It will be the first year in a while, if Audi can pass over 100k in sales this year! Thats not even close to BMW, MB, or Lexus yearly sales! Not saying that Audi will not get to that sales level someday, but not this year or in the immediate future. Thats why my future tier projections were made the way they were based on how I think the market will go and other factors but of course that is completely subjective to change, ie if we get another recession, etc.

We can agree to disagree but you need to learn to be more diplomatic. This is an opinion blog and no one's opinions are wrong or incorrect. Their opinion and assessments, not fact.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Oh this page in particular gives me a headache....so much fail.

biker

As has been said many times, you have to learn to step back from getting into any kind of meanigful dicussions with him.

dom

JAB00

I am surprised that the 4G TL sells more than the 2G TSX because I see so many 2G TSX in the DC area. 4G TLs are still pretty rare sightings.

dom

Wow.

No idea why I'm bothering but...

2008 MDX = 31% of Acura's sales
2009 MDX = 29% of Acura's sales
2010 MDX YTD = 32% of Acura's sales

April 10' was 34.6. So while I get that the MDX is a large percentage of Acura sales, its not quite 40% now is it. But lets bunch up more random cars from Lexus to try and somehow make Acura look good. Although I'm not sure how pointing out that the MDX sells more than those random mostly niche cars from Lexus does that.

Higher value defines Teir Status?

Just what every millionaire looks for in a car, value.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Do yourself a favor and do what every else does. Pretend as if SSFTSX isn't there.

You can thank me later.

dom

Well played.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

smarty666

While I don't agree with almost everything he said though, he is right on one thing. Audi is on a roll. Their sales have increased and the new models they are coming out with within the next year or two are most impressive and I could just at the site of them.

Plus, Audi has been sticking it to BMW in the last few comparison test by Car and Driver!

But like I said, only time will tell what happens with Audi and the other auto manufacturers. If Acura could just get their act together and have a clear/consistent direction/long term goal with some damn innovations, things might beginning progressing with them more quickly, until that happens though, better break out the lawn chair, because we are in for the long haul!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Even an idiot can do 2+2. It doesn't mean they're good at math.

SSFTSX

I was thinking of canadian sales also where Acura is now selling more than Lexus. and Audi is also more for April month.
irrespective if u look at combined sales of ZDX/RL/TL-SH-AWD. it will be another 1000 vehicles in $45K avg sale price line up. Acura has definitely moved higher up the chain. fun part is all of them is sharing the same 3.7L engine. no hybrid or DI engines up the chain.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Fail....

smarty666

lol !!!!

smarty666

SSFTSX

Regarding Lexus and Audi.
based on last month sales Lexus was only 2 to 1 Audi not 3 to 1. and 90% of Lexus vehicles are priced lower than Audi vehicles. so in theory Audi is outselling Lexus by 10 to 1 one for similar price vehicles. So how is Lexus higher brand than Audi?.

For example compare A3 diesel to HS. One has diesel and other has hybrid. both have are FWD and has similar prices once equiped similarly. but with A3 you get only 140bhp engine while with Lexus you get 190bhp total bhp engine. both are using different technologies to get hyper mileage but with Lexus you get better fuel economy and more power for similar price. thats why it is called a Value brand. and Audi drives on diesle that is expensive than regular fuel in most cases.
you cannot put 140bhp engine in HS and expect to have similar price like Audi




Car tier status is directly related to price per vehicle. Ferrari dont necessirly pull more Gs than R8 but it is priced higher and can sell for that price.
similarly new A8 surpass RR in NVH levels in all speeds and can pull the most Gs along with very best interior for 200 inch car.
There is not a single entry in Lexus lineup that is priced higher than Audi. Compare Audi V6 to Lexus V6 prices. Compare Audi V8 to Lexus V8 prices from similarly equiped. Lexus dont have that brand image to charge price of Audi. Audi is higher brand than Lexus. and is more or less equal to MB/BMW. This is pure simple way of brand status as it is directly related to price. As long as there is one person buying $1m Buggati Veryon. it is the highest and rarest brand.
so on avg if One brand sells higher priced vehicles than the other. that brand is stack higher than the other. Quantity of sales dont matter.
It was in 1980s and 1990s when Audi has image problem they would have to sell in discount to BMW/MB. but that discount in price is not there any more. Brand image has gone up

just look at used B8 price with MB C and BMW 3. it is more likely that not that new MB/BMW are more deeply discounted than Audi that contributes to there sales but once it goes to used market the price simply collapse as more desirable brand has higher value. and that is happening alot with 2009 model years.
Does Audi even offer that 4 year free maintainance like BMW?.

thats why on ALG has highest residual value for Acura. and Audi has higher residual value than MB/BMW as they are more desirable. remember both Audi and Audi has very high proportion of AWD vehciles in there line up.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

OMG really that much more fail?

chungkopi

Yes, it's only your opinion, but still. your prediction is so wrong IMO...


1. Yes, this is an acura board and we all love our acuras, but Acura will never be anywhere near germans in terms of brand perception. what makes you think Acura will ever be tier 1 in 2030? i know things can change quickly, but it's a blind faith if you ask me. show me a promising future by introducing all new V8 RL then i won't be so critical of acura.

2. Lexus is clearly tier 1 in the U.S, but tier 2 in all other countries including Japan. Lexus is not tier 1 in any of asian countries. Germans are clearly ahead of lexus. No one in Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong and etc will ever consider Lexus to be tier 1. Asians are German nuthuggers..

3. if you consider Cadillac tier 3 right now then you have to downgrade acura to tier 3. perception of Cadillac is definitely above Acura in the U.S and in the world. let's be honest. Acura's image has been tarnished lately. at this rate, Buick will soon match Acura's image within next 5-6 years. it's a critical point for Acura. if they screw up the design again and again, soon our beloved Acuras might become the biggest joke in the automotive industry. Blame the beak and blame the poor sales of RL. the beak has taken acura back to a place where acura has never been before. we can cry "i miss legend", but Legend was gone for 15 years now. i hope the day will come though.

4. Perception of Jaguar is very tricky. It commands tremendous respect in Asia, but not much in Europe. It is considered tier 1 to many people in the U.S, but no one is buying. We will probably never see Jaguar becoming anywhere near Germans. never say never, but Jaguar hasn't done much for last 30 years. Jaguar is the proof that you can't be a tier 1 with a good design only.

5. Infiniti is tier 2 in the U.S and probably tier 3 in the world. Acura still outsells infiniti. i think it's safe to say Infiniti will never be tier 1. I just don't see it. look at the new M. will they ever make Q? if they screw up on G, they are really screwed. because just look at the sales number outside of G.


6. Audi isn't tier 1 in the U.S. well they are tier 1, but they will always be distant tier 1. globally they are tier 1, but in the U.S, MB/BMW is clearly ahead of Audi. to be a legit tier 1, you have to have a flagship that sells. yes, that's just my opinion, but when people have a choice to spend 70k-100k, they spend it on 7/LS/S, but not on A8. Audi will become tier 1 if A8 sales can match LS/7/S. you can't be tier 1 if you can't sell $80-90k flagship. R8 doesn't count just like LFA or SLR doesn't count. and IMO the new A8 is a huge disappointment. Audi will have a hard time selling new A8. i don't think it will sell more than 300 a month.

chungkopi

but globally Audi is definitely tier 1.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

1. I agree. Acura continues to show no real progess or proof that they're working on getting their image up. None. Zero. Yeah they've aimed more at performance in recent years but that means little when even better performance for the same or less cash can be had elsewhere. So what's left? Technology? Germans, Ford, and Lexus have that covered. Dependability? Lexus has it.

2. Truth again.

3. Truth yet again. I can't believe someone would rank Cadillac at or below Acura in any sort of tier system.

4. I'd still say Jaguar is Tier I. People view Jaguar as very prestigious and that's what the tiers represent: the masses' perception of the brands. Jaguar hasn't done much in 30 years but let's hope the new XF and the sexy new XJ have something for their future.

5. Truth. Infiniti is tier II for sure here but not elsewhere.

6. I agree on the A8. It was supposed to herald Audi's future in style yet looks little different from the current car.

Hapa DC5

I think the next "big bodied" RL will be an FI or hybrid V6. I really don't think a V8 is coming.

chungkopi

Jaguar is probably tier 1.5

i don't know why people aren't buying Jaguars. must be the dark past.. i just don't think you can be a tier 1 when the flagship of competition(bmw) doubles the sale of the entire line up..

I think Jaguar will eventually has to sell out and start building SUV's or they need to be more exclusive like Maserati. they tried to sell out with Xtype, but they failed miserably.

Jaguar has a great perception globally, but people aren't lining up to buy jaguars. people just choose S and 7.

SSFTSX

1.Acura has already reached tier 1 by creating Sh-AWD across the lineup with some of the boldest design. Proportion of high price vehicles from
TL-Sh-AWD/RL/ZDX/MDX/RDX-Sh-AWD is the highest in Asian line up.


50% of Acura sales in China are MDX. i bet it is same in Canada



2. Audi has real flagship in performance cars when they introduced R8 & RS models. they are priced higher than simple LS/S/7 series.

Some car companies liek Ferrari has performance car as Flag ship. some has SUVs as Flagship. every company plays its strength. Afterall Terminator used Hummer.

Hyundai Flagship is Gensis but Honda flagship is Pilot. who sells more and who makes more profit is another matter

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You just spoke it all.

smarty666

So everyone wants to play that game fine. Its opinion and it can't be wrong or right. Then if that is the case your assessment is definitely completely incorrect and wrong. Its laughable most of what you say anyway!

You are no seer or fortune teller. You can never say Acura, or Infiniti, Audi, etc or who ever will never be tier 1. There are just too many things that contribute to luxury, status, perception etc that you can't make statement like that. To say things in absolute like that is very ignorant and incorrect! You don't know, no one knows, so don't go making stupid statements like that! Nobody knows what will happen!

Looks like someone else has been drinking the BMW, MB, and Audi Kool-Aid !!

Oh I don't care about Audi's status globally, or anyone else's for that matter. When I talk about this ridiculous tier system, which doesn't mean jack squat, I'm talking about this country. I've always been talking and referring about the luxury status and sales in this country. I don't care what it is in Canada, Eurpoe, Japan, or where ever! All I'm concerned with is here, in the good old US of A!

smarty666

again

majin ssj eric

Lol. So much for your "tier is based on price" theory. Acura doesn't even have competitors for Lexus at the top of the market (LS, LX, IS-F). Lexus prices are across the board higher than Acura, yet Lexus is tier 2 and Acura, tier 1???

I don't even necessarily agree with your "price = tier" assessment anyway, but at least stay consistent with yourself! And you are also worng (what a surprise) about all Audis being more expensive than all Lexus's. The LS is priced similarly to the A8, the GS is close to the A6, the IS/ES is close to the A4/5, the RX is around the same as the Q5, the LX is close to the Q7, the IS-F comes close to the S5, etc. In fact, when you include the LFA, Lexus has a competitor for every single Audi entry other than the A3 (and Avant), and the LFA has sold out at a price nearly 4 times the R8's....

smarty666

the only reason why I did that is, is because of the experience my family and myself have had with Cadillac in the past! They are of poor quality, terrible terrible reliability (10x worse then the Germans), and their reputation/prestige is low because of their terrible poor reliability and association with a now post-bankrupted GM, which has hurt their image, despite the fact they are now trying to distance themselves from GM, even though they will always be a GM product and associated with a terribly managed company!

I sat in several Cadillac products at the NY AutoShow last month and I was not impressed with any of them. The seats were terrible uncomfortable, too many cheap plastic pieces and materials in the cabin, even more so then what Acura is doing now, fit/finish issues all over the place, and I had some exterior/interior pieces come off in my hand!

Now, Cadillac is in the process of addressing their product lines and this might change within the next few years but not right now!

Plus, I don't see many Cadillac's, especially newer model years on the road, like I see BMWs, MBs, Lexus, Infiniti's, Audi's, and Acura's. Plus, I have never heard anyone recommend Cadillac to anyone let alone buy one for themselves. I still contend, that a large majority of the middle age and young adult population are not flocking in jroves to buy Cadillac's like they are the other luxury auto makers! I think a good chunk of their sales are still to the over 50 crowd who grew up with GM and Cadillac as the best domestically made luxury choice!

I do agree with you and others though, that if Acura doesn't get its act together in the innovation and styling department, they will become a joke in the industry and Cadillac and Buick will pass them in reputation/image!