AZuser

They are/will. It's the 2G NSX

RPhilMan1

Anything yet?

Focus RS is AWD beast with 315+hp.

VR1

There's supposed to be some sort of announcement about Honda US today. Type R is 276HP and fwd (they said theyre chasing FWD nurburgring lap time.) I'm pretty sure it will be 5-6k less then the RS or STi (33-35k vs 40k)

TacoBello

Only 276hp?

Isn't that abouts what the ST is putting down? Sigh.

VR1

ST puts down 252. This is a in between the ST and RS.

fsttyms1

For 35k in something the the size of the civic without having to rely on electric motors to power the other 2 wheels.

fsttyms1

As usual, Honda making up their own class because they dont want to directly compete

VR1

I have no idea if what I said is correct, but that's what I think at least. No way Honda is gonna charge $40k for this. I think this gonna be a top trim GTI/ST competitor

SamDoe1

fify

TacoBello

It'll be a 35-38k USD car. Guaranteed.

MeehowsBRZ

Soooooo, did Honda delay the press conference or something?

SamDoe1

Conversation at Honda corporate today:

"oh fuck, did anyone knwo that Ford was revealing the new Focus today?"

"No! We didn't, can't believe this is happening again after we blew it on the NSX launch. Don't want to get pwned by Ford again"

"Should we delay the CTR reveal?"

"Probably, lets wait till everyone knows about the Focus before we show the CTR."

"Well isn't the Focus better than the CTR anyway?"

"Yes but we'll just market it as a product that doesn't compete with the RS."

"Done."

"Hey anyone hear about the Opel Corsa OPC?"

"lol, those newbs should have known about Focus RS."

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

but the ST can barely beat the POS Si....

lol it`s not available in NA no?

VR1

I don't think it will be that expensive.. I can see 35k or 36k for the top trim level, but I don't think it will be more then 30-32k base. 38k for a base model and 40-41k for the highest level trim would be ridiculous. 44k is BMW M235i money. Here in the US, a base Si is 23k and the top trim is 24.5k. I don't see it being more then 8-9k more then that.

If we're talking about it being 35-38k in Canada then I could see that. considering cars there are more expensive.

MeehowsBRZ

Its pretty sad Honda's let Ford upstage them twice in the span of a month.

fsttyms1

Fixed..

RPhilMan1

Hey, I know you like to post (limited) 0-60mph magazine racing times comparing the two, but I really think you are mistaken. The ST has a much better track setup than the Si does.

In Lightning Lap 2012, the Civic Si had a 3:24.1 lap time.

In Lightning Lap 2014, the Focus ST had a 3:17.6 lap time.

Source

Also, comparing numbers much closer to today, the 2014 Si earned a 0-60mph time of 6.5 seconds from both C&D and Motor Trend.

For the 2014 ST, C&D earned a 6.1 second time. I couldn't find the numbers for a 2014 on Motor Trend. Top Speed earned a 5.9 second time, though.

I don't know about barely beat. I think it's understood pretty well that the ST is faster on the track and in a straight line than the Si.

Regardless, magazine racing the two is worthless. They are two very different cars.

SamDoe1

But if you put a factory warranted tune on the Si it'll be...oh wait you can't.

The Si is slower than the ST. Simple physics would prove that. Not sure where you are getting your material from but there's no way a car -100ftlb of torque and a marginally lower weight weight is just as fast to 60mph.

MeehowsBRZ

His imagination I would assume.

oonowindoo

How much was the Mugen Si?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think he's referencing the price level of the Golf R and WRX STI. The STI starts at $34.5k and you can load it to $41k. The Golf R starts at $36.5k and I'm not sure how high you can go with it.

Given that the specs of the RS is similar to those two cars, I think that's where taco got the impression that the RS will be a $35k+ car. If it performs as well or better than those two rivals, then $35k+ is well worth the money IMO. $32k base would be a bargain.

I was solely referring to straight line performance, as his comment was strictly about how the the ST puts down as much power as the next CTR. I'm not saying the ST handles like crap at all.

The Top Speed article uses the "official time" provided by Ford, not their own testing, according to the article.

Why limit to the more recent times? Why not use all the numbers from current 9G Si and current ST times? Wouldn't that be more fair to see have more data points, for a more consistent figure?

As I posted earlier, the Civic Si also pulled a 6.1s for 0-60mph too:
The thing is, in most of the tests that I've seen, the current Civic Si is nearly as fast as the Focus ST. In some instances, the Civic Si is actually faster.

Civic Si:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.7 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.4 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 8.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 8.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.7 sec @ 97 mph
2012 Honda Civic Si Sedan Instrumented Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Si is faster than the ST. All I'm saying is that, the ST doesn't exactly smoke the Si in a straight line, despite having a 50hp and 80lbft advantage. They are actually pretty close, based on tests done by reputable sources.

See above. I didn't make the numbers up. I invite you to dig up more numbers if you want to. As far as I know, the only Focus ST that is noticeably faster than the Si is the Euro-spec one.

Oh, and here's the tuned Focus ST:
COBB Ford Focus ST Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

Power: 300 hp @ 6100 rpm
Torque: 380 lb-ft @ 2800 rpm
Zero to 60 mph: 5.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.8 sec
Zero to 140 mph: 35.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.0 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.2 sec @ 101 mph
Curb weight: 3220 lb

Yup, that would beat a Si. But surprisingly, that doesn't look very fast eh? Those times are very comparable to a Accord V6 6AT.
2013 Honda Accord EX-L V-6 Coupe Automatic Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

Same 0-60mph, same 1/4 mile ET, same 1/4 mile trap speed, same 0-100mph. The difference is, the Accord is 20hp down, while being 300lb heavier.

You are very right that physics would tell us that a light car with more power would win a straight line race. But sometimes, we have to careful as to whether the rated power figures are overrated or underrated.

oonowindoo

any comparison that does not start from 0mph?

cars with more low end torque will be harder to launch especially when you have 100% of the power at the wrong wheels, unless you got some slicks up front.

any # for something like 20-80? or 20/30mph to 100mph?

VR1

I was actually talking about the CTR price. The RS is definitely worth 35-40k. I don't think the CTR will be that expensive.

VR1

I didn't even know that existed till now. Just checked, and $30k does seem ridiclous for what it was, but I still think the Type R won't be much more then $30k.

RPhilMan1

Understood. And really...

...this is the issue. The ST has a lot of torque, and my problem with that is traction. Even with stiffer motor mounts and sticky summer tires, I'm still fighting for traction. Thus, 0-60 times will suffer a bit. This is why I'm excited for the RS, because I know it can handle 315hp easily with AWD, and with a huge amount of room to bump that up with mods.

FWD launching in a straight line a la 0-60 or 1/4 mile won't be the best, as we all know. That's why I wanted to post the Lightning Lap times of the ST and the Si, where it really shows the speed differences between the two.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I completely agree that launching a FWD car fast with like 250lbft is not the easiest thing to do.

That's why I mentioned 1/4 mile trap speeds too. Trap speed is not affected by launch and is a solid indication of engine power (power to weight ratio to be more specific). In this case, the ST is at 96mph, and the Si at 97mph. In some tests, the ST traps at 97mph too. Again, that seems more like a draw to me.

You can also look at 0-100mph. While 0-60mph is limited by grip, one would think that by 100mph, grip shouldn't be much of an issue.

Civic Si: 15.7s
ST: 16.3s (brand new)
ST: 16.0 (40000 miles - well broken in)

You mentioned 20-80mph or something similar, most publications don't test that. However, they do 5-60mph, and there's no clutch drop of anything like that. Just get to 5mph with clutch fully engaged, then step on the gas from like 1500rpm or so.

5-60mph:
Civic Si: 6.4s
ST: 6.9s (brand new)
ST: 6.6s (40000 miles)


My bad for misunderstanding man. I'm hoping for $30k hahha for a base CTR. If it's priced at $35k base, then it better be a true track monster.

Yea it's kinda dumb...lol...$30k for a Civic Si with some aftermarket parts.

TacoBello

Yeah, I was referring to the CTR being around 34-37k. As someone just posted, the Golf and STi are in that range. Granted, they have AWD, however, it seems there's always a "Honda tax" to pay. 37/38k would be for a optioned out model. And the Mugen Si was pretty damn expensive too, wasn't it?

This of course is assuming we even get the CTR. I'm staying optimistic

AZuser

From what I remember, the car wasn't an easy sell. Goudy Honda (I'm sure you know where that's at) had one in their showroom back in the day and it was $30K + their mark up. At some point it sold, but after sitting there for many many months.

I don't know how well a $35K+ Civic Type R is going to sell. I know people here would like to own one, but how many would actually go out and buy one, brand new? I know I wouldn't. It'd be a big theft magnet too, like the ITR.

TacoBello

Anything desirable is a theft magnet. But let's not compare a 2015/16 CTR to a 2000 ITR. New cars are much more difficult to steal as compared to a ITR that had essentially nothing beyond a shitty door lock keeping people from getting in. Starting them wasn't any much harder.

Although not bulletproof, in terms of theft, I think new cars take a lot more of the amateur thieves out of the equation. And let's be honest, if someone wants your car bad enough, they'll get it. A car with just nice wheels and suspension drop is a target as well.

oonowindoo

Being in the 626, of course i know where Goudy Honda is

That is where i got my 2005 GPW S2000.

But yah regardless how good the CTR might be.. anything about $30k will be a hard sale in volumes because people who are willing to buy it at the price are too young and can't afford it and people who can afford it will not drop $35k on a Civic.

If Honda can somehow manage to have a starting MSRP at $25k and 28k fully loaded, they will be flying off the lot.

TacoBello

Type Rs have never been about volume sales, any where in the world. I highly doubt Honda will change that now.

oonowindoo

Of course when i say volume in sales, i did not mean to compare CTR with Camry or Accord.

But how many Si is Honda selling? I'd expect Type R to steal most of Si 's sales if priced right.

CTR is not like NSX, it still needs to be sold in a reasonable amount for it to make sense to even bring it to the US. Or it will be cut after 1 or 2 years.

TacoBello

I don't necessarily agree. I think honda should keep the Si as it is. I don't think many people look for a car like a CTR, with firm suspension, likely loud, etc. it's a very demographic catered car. I'm hoping it's not absurdly priced, but I'm thinking below 30k is a pipe dream.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

$25k would be a tough ask I think, assuming it's a "real" Type R with ~300hp. IT would be a real bargain as $25k starting is close to where Focus ST and GTI are starting at eh.

How much was the ITR back in 2000 anyway?

oonowindoo

If we compare the last type R we had with its cheaper counterparts. You can see why it should NOT be over $30k when you compare the current Civic LX, EX, EXL and Si.

Side note: LS had 140hp? i swear i thought it only had 100 last time i drove one.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the prices. Wow, in Canada, the ITR was CAD$31k....sigh....

Looking from your perspective, I can see why you feel that the Type R should not exceed $28k base.

Looking from the current market though, I feel that at $28k, it would be quite a bargain, assuming that the CTR is indeed the fastest FWD production car at the Nurburgring.

oonowindoo

bargain or not, it is a Civic... Type R.. It might have great performance and everything but you just can't sell it like it is not a civic.

If Acura makes a ILX Type R with the same engine. $40k is very doable.

Same argument for the Hellcats, GTR... they offer the performance and tech with cars that have double the MSRP... but they just can't charge that much regardless how good the car is.

TacoBello

No no, it SHOULD be a 30k car. You didn't include inflation for those prices. The type r, by today's standards, was a 30k car. In canada, it was close to a 40k car. True story. And that was a naturally aspirated engine, with no turbo system, no modern safety, no 17/18" wheels, etc. all that stuff adds up in cost. Granted, the Type R B18c5 engine was a pricey engine, having a factory port and polish, amongst other things, but I'd be surprise if the new type R didn't follow suit.

Also, you didn't post from what year that cost analysis is from. We had the ITR from 97-01. That's 14-18 years worth of inflation. Shit adds up real quick!

And yes, the non VTEC b18 engines did put out 140hp. The cars with automatics felt much slower than the 5 speeds, and also, how old was the car you drove? The harder the engine was used, the larger the likelihood of loss of compression, resulting in less power to the wheels...

Mizouse

even if it was under 30k i still cant afford it

oonowindoo

Those prices are from 2001.

Inflation or not, if you compare How much Integra LS, GS, GSR and Type R prices from that list and the price of today's Civic LX, EX and Si, you will see they are about the same.

and IF.. IF Honda decided to follow the same pricing structure with their last real Type R, then CTR should start under $30k.

But I'd not be surprised if the CTR is a $35k car based on how much Honda wanted for the stupid Mugen Si.