Jason

Take it to the new thread please, this will be very entertaining.

Alex

This is official I guess
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=122304
Also considering super-extra-low RL sales over last few years,recent TL sales drop and Civic Si fiasko I would not be so optimistic.
Here's more bad news
http://www.prophet.net/quotes/stockn...ticle=181x7758

I'm 100% sure that Honda will heal this "wounds" and learn some lessons here but how long does it takes?

Raheel

My god the car isn't even out yet, and you are saying it will lose its sales to the G35?

Come on, The Tl's gonna have 270 HP, more like 280 Cuz I hear its underrated, on top of that its gonna have some nice slick wheels, and a nice 6 MT.. And A lot better interior, and also people usually paying 35k dont just go for the performance sense unless they are buying a s2k or something but I mean interior vs interior the TL will kick ass, almost anything will kick Infiniti's ass in interior...

Also I hear 3.4 L Engine is possible with more Torque so than the G35 would not be too much compared to the TL..

this is all speculation that I am doing so don't come at me with an ax if I said something wrong

Also IMO the TL 6MT HPT will hang with the G35 Coupe, Believe it or not it will

Alex

Good point - let's wait and see ( my post was pure speculation in that regards )

But competing with G35 (sedan or coupe does not really matters) will be very difficult (if possible at all) G35 has 3.5L with plenty torque and RWD setup and damn fast _already_

If FWD TL stock will ever run 0-60 in 5.5 sec as G35 does I will eat my drivers licence !!!

Even 350hp turbocharged heavily modified Computech Acura CL-S 6M does only 5.6sec - thank's to FWD
It does not mater how much torque new engine will produce - it is still FWD

ViperLuke

I intend to give the new TL a good look. Its just that 2 months ago when I was about to buy a G35. I heard about the new TL. AWD, 300hp, 6speed. For alot less than 40k. It sounded like a G35 killer. I still think it will be a really nice car. Will it be nice enough to make me buy it? I'll see in October.

EmuMessenger

I looked at, drove and loved the S60R. Great Brembo brakes, great acceleration, bi-xenon headlights, curtain airbags, dual-zone CC, comfortable seats, good looking (IMHO) too.

Down side, closer to $45k when I added things like 18" wheels and Navi. I also found the shifter to be a little strange and if my memory serves me right, the color I wanted was extra. Although, I would shell out that kind of cash for the TL if it was AWD, 300HP, etc.

Lastly, the dealer said they had no idea when they could come up with a navi model and no touch screen. Also, I think the CD changer was a three or four disc.

All in all, hot car, but hard to find with the equipment I want and I did not love the shifter.

BTW, the car handles very well for something that large and heavy.

It is nearly a toss-up, but I look forward to the new gen navi in the TL and have owned two previously. I am going to give the brand a shot, if I like the way the car drives when it hits the dealer floor. Otherwise, I could end up with the Volvo or something else. Time will tell.

EmuMessenger

That is my hope, too... I'd love to see 5.7 or 8 or better.

All this talk about the G35 is crazy.

Do we know if there will be a new I35?

In reality, the G series was always comparable to the Integra, until it landed a V6 and the 35 designation.

Will there be a new I35 and where does that fit into the mix?

Alex

G35 significantly bigger inside than current TL:
http://www.carsdirect.com/researchce...,USB30ACC021B0
And lighter: Curb Weight 3,336lbs. vs 3,558lbs.
and has one of the best Drag Coefficient - .27 (same as TSX btw)

So it will be real miracle if '04 TL will beat G35

Alex

The thing is that you can get S60R for 37K right away.
Even if it is a base model with not much goodies in it you still can enjoy AWD, 300HP and later install all digital stuff - this is not a big deal.
Good sound system with proper features and other digital toys can be purchased separately any time and installed for a reasonable cost.

Unfortunately if you are going to buy '04 TL which I'm sure will be packed with all-fancy toys up to the roof but there's not way you can make it AWD.

EmuMessenger

Wow, nice post.

That information is depressing.

Let's hope someone at Acura also has this data and used it during deveopment.

It would be great to see the new TL in the 3150 - 3400 LB range.

EmuMessenger

Well put, I never thought about aftermarket stuff, but I still think I prefer factory installed equipment, even if they are slightly inferior.

You have me thinking again.....

Alex

Me too
May be because I'm just lazy to go and look for better deal and also I trust that factory installed equipment tends to be more reliable (I'm not sure if it's really and issue here).

Stevens24

First off if we are going to compare let's compere comparably equipped versions. Comparing a cloth seat stripped G35 to any TL isn.t a fair comparison. Comparably equipped tha tcar is 33-34 k. Infiniti has also had historacally low resale values and the jury is still out on this car. The fact is the car will be popular and will sell well. let's just see how it plays out. I echo Justins thoughts, you can't get a 50k car for 35k IT CAN'T HAPPEN.

ClutchPerformer

This is unrealistic. The TSX already weighs 3230-3329 lbs (manual/non navi - auto/navi), and the TL is a bigger vehicle. I'd guess 3500+ (but it'd be nice to be wrong).

EmuMessenger

Wishful thinking on the weight.

Why are the TL and TSX so heavy compared to other vehicles?

larchmont

You dudes know a lot more than I do about cars, but -- I don't think you really want the car to be that light. I think the advantages in performance would be way outweighed by losses in stability and feeling of solidity.

It wouldn't be an Acura. It would be a Mustang.

Alex

G35 has plenty of aluminum-alloy details and body also made of some fancy alloy too.
So G35 is rather an exception here.

If you take a look at 5series or Lexus GS you will see they have about the same weight as TL-S

Also TL/TSX comes with almost all options already installed so you actually see the _real_ weight for TL/TSX - most manufacturers specify weight for base models and it is hard to figure out what is the actual weight of the vehicle.
I honestly have no idea how much weight options like leather and Navi can add but I would guess it is not very high number.

EmuMessenger

Not true, I had a 25th anniversary Cobra (1994) and that thing was like a tank.

I bet the current Cobra or any Mustang is in the 3500 pound range.

Alex

Let's see...
2003 Infiniti G35 Luxury Leather 4dr Sedan: Transmission: Electronic 5-Speed Automatic - $28,602
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/opti...&restore=false

Now let's add all options TL has:
Premium Package : $2,757
• Power Sunroof w/Slide and Tilt .
• Bose Audio System .
• Automatic On/Off Headlights .
• Memory Driver's Seat .
• 4-Way Power Passenger Seat .
• Manual Reclining Rear Seat .
• Dual Zone Automatic Temperature Control .
• HomeLink Wireless Control System .
• Electrochromatic Auto. Anti-Glare Rearview Mirror .
• Power Windows .

===
Total - $31359

Infinity Navigation Package : $1,805
• Infiniti DVD Navigation System .
• Retractable 6.5 in. Color LCD VIS Screen .

===
With Navi - $33164

And you can still add few options if you ready to pay 34K

XM Satellite Radio $345
• Includes satellite radio hardware, activation fee and first 2-months of service..

Wood Package $216
• Includes genuine Bird's Eye Maple wood trim..

Winter Package w/o Full Size Spare Tire $388
• Heated Front Seats .
• Heated Outside Mirrors .
• Includes space saver spare tire..

Aero Package : $474
• Rear Spoiler .
• Underbody Aerodynamic Side Fairings .

Mind you this is all carsdirect price - you can easyly get $$500-1000 off that price at the dealership

"Infiniti has also had historacally low resale values and the jury is still out on this car" - this is true but since G35 sold now at very high numbers I think they will have serious improvements here.

In my opinion '04 TL is a clear winner when it comes to exterior and interior - G35 sedan looking a bit strange from the back and interior is terrible (may be it is just my taste).

I heard Nissan will add some changes to G35 '04 model but I have no idea what are they going to change.
From other side G35 coupe is absolutely marvelous car - cool styling and 280hp 3.5L V6 for under 30K is a steal - such a pity I need a big car

EmuMessenger

Base model Mustang = 3066 lbs.
Cobra = 3665 lbs.

larchmont

No.

Mustang -- 3066. (Cobra -- dunno.)

But I'm not sure I get your point anyway. My point was about the disadvantages of a car being lighter.

EmuMessenger

Huge difference between the two, eh?

Going from 6-8 cylinders and adding those giant wheels must add greatly to the mass.

--------------


I understand what you mean about structural integrity.

Alex

What disadvantages exactly you are talking about?
Light car = fast car isn't it simple like that or I'm missing something?
Most truely sport cars very light and they have perfect handling and stick to road like crazy - not because of the weight but because of the whole design (aerodynamics, tranny etc.)

dnb

I agree with Colin Chapman's "add lightness" philosophy. And I don't consider 3100 lbs to be light at all --- my primary car is 2100 lbs.

Stability can be increased by stretching the wheelbase (which is apparently being done in going from the 03TL to the 04TL).

larchmont

See above. If I'm wrong, so be it.

I usually stay out of these technical discussions, because I don't know enough about cars (good thing!) -- but all I can say, speaking just in a general way -- is that to me there has seemed to be a correlation (other things being equal) between a car being heavier, and feeling more stable and solid and better-made. Indeed, I thought this was a pretty well accepted fact.

If this is wrong, I'm sure I'll be hearing about it -- and grateful for it!

dnb

For this reply let me take Larchmont's viewpoint: This discussion hinges on whether you want the TL for autocrossing or for touring/highway use. For the latter I think most people would prefer a relatively heavy car with a long wheelbase (Maybach or S-class would be represent the end of this spectrum).

Alex

Oh, I see now!
Sorry for my misinterpretation

EmuMessenger

I think what everyone is saying is... We would like a more nimble TL that competes with other cars 0-60, looks good and is reasonably priced.

IMO the car can weigh 4000lbs if it still does 0-60 in sub 6.

larchmont

OK, let me ask it this way:

Am I wrong that a lighter car (other things being equal) will get tossed around worse by wind etc., and that it will take bumps etc. worse, and that in general it will have less of a feeling of stability and solidity?

And, even if we forget about "other things being equal" -- even with compensating aspects like larger wheelbase -- wouldn't there still be significant losses in those areas?

need4spd_RENAMED

Hey, just to let you know, the regestration on my 96 maxima SE 5spd says 2896lbs, I guess that is why 0-60 was 6.6sec.

I have gotten it up to 145 a few times with more to go, and even put it on a road course type track, it was a lot of fun, plenty stable (235/45-17's did not hurt, gee these are the tires on the HPT).

New Maximas are 245/45-18" (larger diameter tire and more contact patch)!

EmuMessenger

Your post brings a tear to my eyes.:'( My 96 Maxima SE 5 speed was one of my favorite cars. Also, the 96 had the fastest 0-60 of any year Maxima within that bodystyle life span. You must have aftermarket rims, I think out of the factory I had 205/60/15 all the way around. The next year, I was angry because the 16" five spoke wheels came out.

I will say while I loved that car, dearly, the TL "feels" more solid. I remember the trunk felt so flimsy.

Alex

Yep - old Maximas are light and quick even they had only 190 hp/205 ft-lbs. V6
Handling also awesome

Alex

Try RSX - light car which feels solid as hell and have no problems with wind or bumps. This is just an example of course.


But if you can make light car with low profile / good aerodynamics I think you will have no problems with ride quality.
Also light body put less stress to transmission and increase gas milage and of course handling will be way batter (especially if we are talking about FWD cars).
So lets' say TL gets alloy body - then it can be easy winner over competition!
But chances of that happening is almost zero.

larchmont

RSX is not a light car.

This gets into what we really mean by it. In terms of what it is that influences the characteristics I was talking about -- stability, solidity etc. -- it's not just pure weight, it's.....I don't know what word to use, maybe density? (You can probably tell me the right word.)

Relative to the RSX dimensions, the weight is a high figure, not a low figure.

briny319

Sorry if its already been posted.

I got an email from acura about 5 minutes ago the had a link to a a flash page that had nice views of the car.

Heres the address:
http://www.acura.com/TLConceptEH

TSXDRM

Hello,

I'm along time listener first time caller.
Can anyone open this site? I just received it from Acura.

http://www.acura.com/TLConceptEH/

for some reason I get nothing but an empty page.

EmuMessenger

Thank you. I did not enroll to keep SPAM to a minimum.

Those rims refuse to quit!

EmuMessenger

If you have a pop-up blocker it will not work. I had to disable mine to open the page.

TSXDRM

How do you disable it?

98AccordEx

I use Netscape's 7.02 borwser with pop-ups disabled for Acura and a few other sites.

Nice to see the original bumper design and front & rear brembos with ventilated disks.