Acura: TLX News
07-29-2003, 04:58 AM
#1681
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Thanks Gebbeth.
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself! 
Yes, a 99TL was only about CAD$5K more (including sales tax) than a 99 Accord V6 sedan. With the slightly bigger engine, Xenon lights and 16" rims, the CAD$5K was more than worth it. This makes the TL basically a higher "trim" of the Accord V6 sedan, and this is exactly what the public will think. Acura models are simply higher trim models of the equivalent Honda models. Come to think of it, my 99TL doesn't even have rear door courtesy lights, whereas the 99 Accord V6 has them!
If the TL was CAD$10K to $15K more than the Accord V6, then the perception of the TL would be changed completely. The general public would think that the TL must be much better (in both luxury and sportiness) than the Accord V6, because the TL is more expensive. Yes, it's sad that people think that way, since more expensive things don't necessarily mean they are better things, but this is how the luxury segment of any market works. Just look at the Lexus ES300 - it's about CAD$10K (including tax) more than a Camry, yet people still buy it, even though it's basically the same car as the Camry.
Yes, Acura will sell less TLs if it's CAD$10K more than the Accord V6, but, it'll make more profit on the TL too, not to mention the brand building that comes with it. Yes, I know that the cost structure will be changed because the level of production will be reduced - it will cost more to produce each unit because of fixed costs. However, the CAD$10K extra is just an example - maybe it needs to be CAD$15K more in order to make the same profit and to offset the additional cost of producing less units. Hopefully, with less units produced, the quality and attention to detail that's famous with Honda will also come back (panels aligning properly, etc.)
Anyway, we, as Honda fans, will probably still pay the extra CAD$10K or CAD$15K, because we know that we're buying a premium Honda product, and there is goodwill associated with the Acura name - and at CAD$10K or $15K more than the Accord V6, I think the resale value (as a percentage of the purchase price) of the TL would be better, because there will be less of them on the market, which keeps the supply in check.
Originally posted by Gebbeth
I agree with 99TL. Yes, I know, this isn't a Maybach, but some of the stuff we as Acura/Honda fans have been asking for is no longer in the realm of the "way out there high-tech" either and have been in other cars of similar price/status as the TL. Is AWD or RWD really an innovation? Can a RWD/AWD car be priced competitively with the German manufacturers. Of course it can. The G35 is a perfect example. More horsepower, surely. A little more luxury is also possible. C'mon guys, let's not blindly accept whatever Honda throws out there because we're all Honda fans. They do make mistakes (lets face it, the RL sucks and I'm one of those people who think the new Accord is butt ugly).
I agree with 99TL. Yes, I know, this isn't a Maybach, but some of the stuff we as Acura/Honda fans have been asking for is no longer in the realm of the "way out there high-tech" either and have been in other cars of similar price/status as the TL. Is AWD or RWD really an innovation? Can a RWD/AWD car be priced competitively with the German manufacturers. Of course it can. The G35 is a perfect example. More horsepower, surely. A little more luxury is also possible. C'mon guys, let's not blindly accept whatever Honda throws out there because we're all Honda fans. They do make mistakes (lets face it, the RL sucks and I'm one of those people who think the new Accord is butt ugly).
Fact is, for the majority of the buying public, there is not enough differentiation between the Honda lines and the Acura. In the minds of many, other than the horsepower increase, the interior appointments down to the keys looks very much like each other, and the price points were a few thousands off. This is not enough for those who seek true luxury and a step up. And people will pay for it.
Yes, a 99TL was only about CAD$5K more (including sales tax) than a 99 Accord V6 sedan. With the slightly bigger engine, Xenon lights and 16" rims, the CAD$5K was more than worth it. This makes the TL basically a higher "trim" of the Accord V6 sedan, and this is exactly what the public will think. Acura models are simply higher trim models of the equivalent Honda models. Come to think of it, my 99TL doesn't even have rear door courtesy lights, whereas the 99 Accord V6 has them!If the TL was CAD$10K to $15K more than the Accord V6, then the perception of the TL would be changed completely. The general public would think that the TL must be much better (in both luxury and sportiness) than the Accord V6, because the TL is more expensive. Yes, it's sad that people think that way, since more expensive things don't necessarily mean they are better things, but this is how the luxury segment of any market works. Just look at the Lexus ES300 - it's about CAD$10K (including tax) more than a Camry, yet people still buy it, even though it's basically the same car as the Camry.
Yes, Acura will sell less TLs if it's CAD$10K more than the Accord V6, but, it'll make more profit on the TL too, not to mention the brand building that comes with it. Yes, I know that the cost structure will be changed because the level of production will be reduced - it will cost more to produce each unit because of fixed costs. However, the CAD$10K extra is just an example - maybe it needs to be CAD$15K more in order to make the same profit and to offset the additional cost of producing less units. Hopefully, with less units produced, the quality and attention to detail that's famous with Honda will also come back (panels aligning properly, etc.)
Anyway, we, as Honda fans, will probably still pay the extra CAD$10K or CAD$15K, because we know that we're buying a premium Honda product, and there is goodwill associated with the Acura name - and at CAD$10K or $15K more than the Accord V6, I think the resale value (as a percentage of the purchase price) of the TL would be better, because there will be less of them on the market, which keeps the supply in check.
07-29-2003, 06:11 AM
#1682
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side curtian airbags?
The week before last, I bought a '01 TL and then totaled it 10 days later but was able to walk away from the accident. Now that safety is at the front of my mind, I was wondering if anyone knew if the '04 TL was going to have the curtain airbags. I was at the dealer and saw that the TSX has them but they were not 100% sure, if the TL was going to have them or not. Do any of you know?
07-29-2003, 06:58 AM
#1683
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Re: Dunno if this has been posted or not...
Originally posted by JRock
For each of the six trim models, these are your color options available:
Abyss Blue Pearl w/ Camel or Quartz interior
Nighthawk Black Pearl w/ Camel, Quartz, Parchment, or Ebony interior
Satin Silver Metallic w/ Quartz or Ebony
Anthracite Metallic w/ Ebony, Camel, Quartz
Redondo Red Pearl w/ Parchment, Camel, Ebony
White Diamond Pearl w/ Quartz, Parchment
Deep Green Pearl w/ Camel, Parchment
Desert Mist Metallic w/ Ebony, Parchment
Pretty nice variety!
For each of the six trim models, these are your color options available:
Abyss Blue Pearl w/ Camel or Quartz interior
Nighthawk Black Pearl w/ Camel, Quartz, Parchment, or Ebony interior
Satin Silver Metallic w/ Quartz or Ebony
Anthracite Metallic w/ Ebony, Camel, Quartz
Redondo Red Pearl w/ Parchment, Camel, Ebony
White Diamond Pearl w/ Quartz, Parchment
Deep Green Pearl w/ Camel, Parchment
Desert Mist Metallic w/ Ebony, Parchment
Pretty nice variety!
07-29-2003, 07:29 AM
#1684
Re: Re: Dunno if this has been posted or not...
Originally posted by stlgasman
The TL shown with the desert mist must have a parchment interior if the above is correct and it is a different parchment than the current color. Also what does the Quartz look like and what shade of wood trim does it have?
The TL shown with the desert mist must have a parchment interior if the above is correct and it is a different parchment than the current color. Also what does the Quartz look like and what shade of wood trim does it have?
07-29-2003, 07:45 AM
#1685
Re: side curtian airbags?
Originally posted by Bsweety
The week before last, I bought a '01 TL and then totaled it 10 days later but was able to walk away from the accident. Now that safety is at the front of my mind, I was wondering if anyone knew if the '04 TL was going to have the curtain airbags. I was at the dealer and saw that the TSX has them but they were not 100% sure, if the TL was going to have them or not. Do any of you know?
The week before last, I bought a '01 TL and then totaled it 10 days later but was able to walk away from the accident. Now that safety is at the front of my mind, I was wondering if anyone knew if the '04 TL was going to have the curtain airbags. I was at the dealer and saw that the TSX has them but they were not 100% sure, if the TL was going to have them or not. Do any of you know?
07-29-2003, 08:26 AM
#1686
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by JeffPhx
Good god people, this is not a Maybach! The only one of these features that realistically could/should be on the TL would be the power rear sunshade. No other car in this class/price range has the other features as standard. It would be nice to have them, but then the car would NOT be priced in the low 30's and therefore out of it target demographics. Plus before Acura would put these on the TL, they would go into it's flagship sedan the RL. We will just have to wait and see until April 04 when the 05 RL comes out for some of these fancy features. If they are missing from the RL, then it is time to be disappointed.
Sorry for the ranting, but let's be realistic about things.
Good god people, this is not a Maybach! The only one of these features that realistically could/should be on the TL would be the power rear sunshade. No other car in this class/price range has the other features as standard. It would be nice to have them, but then the car would NOT be priced in the low 30's and therefore out of it target demographics. Plus before Acura would put these on the TL, they would go into it's flagship sedan the RL. We will just have to wait and see until April 04 when the 05 RL comes out for some of these fancy features. If they are missing from the RL, then it is time to be disappointed.
Sorry for the ranting, but let's be realistic about things.
There is no reason Acura cannot put new features in the TL that are not yet available in the RL. It is called progress! The RL is almost eight years old and has been running on the same old technology for years.
Acura! Set the bar high. Make some GREAT advances with the TL and EXCEED them in the RL! Make me want my next car to be a step up to the RL!
As for features, like ventilated seats, power rear sunshade, auto up/down on all windows, cars in the under 40K and some under 30k have had those features for years.
These are little things that would satisfy the customer base and keep the car up to date on old features.
The old, horrible Infiniti I30/5 has a power rear sunshade. That car may be one of the biggest flops for Infiniti, but the feature is there. I believe it also has auto up/down in all windows. The Lexus IS300 also has auto up/down across the board.
I still feel I am on board for the HPT-Navi model, but I think Acura should not talk about so much cutting edge technology when the only real advances we are seeing are Bluetooth (available in Chrysler and BMW already) and surround sound stereo. Yes, I know the difference between 5.1 and ProLogic, but how many of us own more than five DVD-A discs? I have had DVD-A at home for two years and own two. Surround sound has been in cars since the 90's.
XM radio is available in the Chevy Cavalier!
Where is the CUTTING EDGE technology?
07-29-2003, 08:51 AM
#1687
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Originally posted by Gebbeth
I've been re-thiking the new TL, and I'm not sure if I'm happy with it. In a lot of ways, it really does look like an enlarged TSX.
I've been re-thiking the new TL, and I'm not sure if I'm happy with it. In a lot of ways, it really does look like an enlarged TSX.
I'd just like to know where people draw the resemblance.
07-29-2003, 09:00 AM
#1688
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Originally posted by BbPhaeton
Again, thanks for the great pictures Lycos and SSH.
After seeing the pictures, I am both happy and sad. It is like anti climactic. Perhaps, because it is the hunt that makes for all the excitement.
I am happy because the things that I don't like on this new TL can be easily fixed (relatively) by mods/after market.
For me, things that I don't like are:
1. Side indentation and side markers: I have to see it in person first, to see how bad it is, but, generally, I like clean simple design. I don't think it's that hard to remove this, as long as you willing to pay for it. Being picky, I won't settle for bondo, but, maybe cutting the indentation and welding a new sheet metal to the door skin, front and rear fenders with minimal bondo. While you are at it, custom made a side marker, either from MB or TSX to the side mirrors, and hook up the wiring of the original side marker to the new one on the mirror. The hard part will be to incorporate the red rear side marker to the rear lights. Perhaps using LED will do. Or, if you can just make do without it. I don't know how the DOT law are for this, but, I notice that on my 1999 TL, the rear lights doesn't contain the red side marker anymore. I thought this is illegal. What do you guys think? Will somebody with more Photoshop talent than me ps the TL without this indentation? TIA. Also, notice that on the new pictures, the middle side markers are smoked. Perhaps, they are smoked unless lighted.
Again, thanks for the great pictures Lycos and SSH.
After seeing the pictures, I am both happy and sad. It is like anti climactic. Perhaps, because it is the hunt that makes for all the excitement.
I am happy because the things that I don't like on this new TL can be easily fixed (relatively) by mods/after market.
For me, things that I don't like are:
1. Side indentation and side markers: I have to see it in person first, to see how bad it is, but, generally, I like clean simple design. I don't think it's that hard to remove this, as long as you willing to pay for it. Being picky, I won't settle for bondo, but, maybe cutting the indentation and welding a new sheet metal to the door skin, front and rear fenders with minimal bondo. While you are at it, custom made a side marker, either from MB or TSX to the side mirrors, and hook up the wiring of the original side marker to the new one on the mirror. The hard part will be to incorporate the red rear side marker to the rear lights. Perhaps using LED will do. Or, if you can just make do without it. I don't know how the DOT law are for this, but, I notice that on my 1999 TL, the rear lights doesn't contain the red side marker anymore. I thought this is illegal. What do you guys think? Will somebody with more Photoshop talent than me ps the TL without this indentation? TIA. Also, notice that on the new pictures, the middle side markers are smoked. Perhaps, they are smoked unless lighted.
As far as the character line indentation, reference the current gen BMW 5-Series. It has a deeply indented character line as well.
07-29-2003, 09:05 AM
#1689
Drifting
99TL, your posts are too big to respond to. It sucks for me, because I'd love to point out how unrealistic your ideas are. Oh well. One word for you: brevity.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
07-29-2003, 09:16 AM
#1690
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Jason
99TL, your posts are too big to respond to. It sucks for me, because I'd love to point out how unrealistic your ideas are. Oh well. One word for you: brevity.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
99TL, your posts are too big to respond to. It sucks for me, because I'd love to point out how unrealistic your ideas are. Oh well. One word for you: brevity.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
Personally, I do not care about the adaptive cruise control, but parking assist is a great feature and available on many cars and mini-vans in the same price range.
The other things like memory seats and automatic tilt-down mirrors are already present and we shouldn't have to worry about losing them.
Long story short, I would easily sacrifice the 5.1 stereo to have the ventilated seats. Bluetooth is a great feature and I look forward to it being in the TL.
Bottom line, we are all entitled to our own opinion, I am keeping my fingers crossed for the ventilated seats. It makes driving a car that has been sitting in the 100 degree sun more tolerable.
07-29-2003, 09:47 AM
#1692
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Originally posted by VtecMW
If this is all the trouble that you'd go through to mod the car to your liking, this is more than likely not the car for you.
As far as the character line indentation, reference the current gen BMW 5-Series. It has a deeply indented character line as well.
If this is all the trouble that you'd go through to mod the car to your liking, this is more than likely not the car for you.
As far as the character line indentation, reference the current gen BMW 5-Series. It has a deeply indented character line as well.
07-29-2003, 10:24 AM
#1693
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Okay, I'll keep it simple from now on.
I pointed out that bluetooth and DVD-A are gadgets, but I never said that bluetooth is worthless. In fact, if I buy the 04TL, I'll get a bluetooth phone to take advantage of this feature of the car. However, DVD-A is really worthless - as mentioned by EmuMessenger - how many of us have more than a few DVD-A discs? By the time the DVD-A discs are popular (when all your favourite artists begin publishing their music on DVD-As), it's probably time for the the next TL (UA7?) to debut.
If cutting edge stereo is such an important "feature", then I would expect Vigor's DSP to have been carried forward to the G1 TL, my (G2) TL, and the G3 TL.
Yes, power sunshade is not the most useful feature (as least to me), but, because it's been in luxury cars for such a long time, Acura should put it in its cars to match the features of the other cars. Basically, Acura cars should have the same "standard" equipment list as other luxury cars and more, so that they can really compete. They should also be priced higher as I mentioned before.
I believe Honda Japan understands this, and that's why the new JDM Inspire has the power rear sunshade (which automatically rolls down when you put the car in reverse!) as standard equipment, because the JDM Inspire is a luxury car. Apparently North American Honda doesn't think the same way as Honda Japan, because North American Honda is probably too proud and is still thinking that "we're Honda, people will buy our cars no matter what as long as they have the "H" or "A" logo on them."
If you think my ideas are unrealistic, then please tell me why Acura has never achieved the luxury status and prestige that Lexus has achieved? Acura was the first Japanese luxury car brand in North America, and the first-to-market brand will usually have an advantage.
I hope this is brief enough for you.
I pointed out that bluetooth and DVD-A are gadgets, but I never said that bluetooth is worthless. In fact, if I buy the 04TL, I'll get a bluetooth phone to take advantage of this feature of the car. However, DVD-A is really worthless - as mentioned by EmuMessenger - how many of us have more than a few DVD-A discs? By the time the DVD-A discs are popular (when all your favourite artists begin publishing their music on DVD-As), it's probably time for the the next TL (UA7?) to debut.
If cutting edge stereo is such an important "feature", then I would expect Vigor's DSP to have been carried forward to the G1 TL, my (G2) TL, and the G3 TL.
Yes, power sunshade is not the most useful feature (as least to me), but, because it's been in luxury cars for such a long time, Acura should put it in its cars to match the features of the other cars. Basically, Acura cars should have the same "standard" equipment list as other luxury cars and more, so that they can really compete. They should also be priced higher as I mentioned before.
I believe Honda Japan understands this, and that's why the new JDM Inspire has the power rear sunshade (which automatically rolls down when you put the car in reverse!) as standard equipment, because the JDM Inspire is a luxury car. Apparently North American Honda doesn't think the same way as Honda Japan, because North American Honda is probably too proud and is still thinking that "we're Honda, people will buy our cars no matter what as long as they have the "H" or "A" logo on them."
If you think my ideas are unrealistic, then please tell me why Acura has never achieved the luxury status and prestige that Lexus has achieved? Acura was the first Japanese luxury car brand in North America, and the first-to-market brand will usually have an advantage.
I hope this is brief enough for you.
Originally posted by Jason
99TL, your posts are too big to respond to. It sucks for me, because I'd love to point out how unrealistic your ideas are. Oh well. One word for you: brevity.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
99TL, your posts are too big to respond to. It sucks for me, because I'd love to point out how unrealistic your ideas are. Oh well. One word for you: brevity.
I don't understand you guys. You bitch about the car not having luxury features and then you question why we need things like bluetooth and 5.1 Audio. You lament how we get nothing original in the TL when maybe 1% of all cars have bluetooth in it right now, and NONE have 5.1 Audio. What about standard XM Radio? How are those features any less worthless than the power rear sunshade that you covet and I could care less about?
I'm going to assume a few features are present, including auto up/down windows, heated mirrors, memory seats, power passenger seat, passenger side mirror tilt down in reverse. Everything else is a bonus. Parking distance sensors, adaptive cruise control (you want to talk about worthless feature), ventilated seats, and any other high-lux feature should start off in the RL. Where did iDRIVE start? Adaptive cruise control? All those big features started in the top cars and Acura should be no exception. Nobody expects those features in a car that costs 35-40K, and Acura does not want to significantly alter the price and alienate their customer base.
07-29-2003, 10:48 AM
#1695
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One more thing Jason:
I see that you have a TSX, which is a very nice car - no rattles, built vitually perfectly. Did you own a UA5 TL before or do you know someone who did? If you did, you'll understand where I'm coming from. Just visit a few Acura TL message forums and you'll see lots of messages about rattles, fit and finish problems, as well as messages about "I'll never buy another Acura product."
Yes, message boards are biased, because people who are really upset about their cars will post, and people who are happy with their cars won't post as often. However, my point is that if you look at the problems that people are experiencing - rattles, fit and finish problems, tranny problems - all these problems should never have happened (esp. to so many TLs) because Honda's QC should have identified and corrected them before the cars leave the factory.
You don't hear the same complains about quality problems with the G2 Legends, the Vigor (well, except some Vigors have hair in the paint), and even the G1 TL. People did complain about the rear seat leg room in the Vigor and G1 TL, but those are design issues, not quality issues. I'm sure most of us would agree that a G2 Legend is about as perfect a car as Honda could possibly build, even compared to today's technologies.
So, if Honda/Acura's quality is not going downhill, then I don't know what is. Yes, Honda/Acura's quality is still much better than many other brands, but when compared to its previous models, Honda/Acura's quality is definitely lower.
I see that you have a TSX, which is a very nice car - no rattles, built vitually perfectly. Did you own a UA5 TL before or do you know someone who did? If you did, you'll understand where I'm coming from. Just visit a few Acura TL message forums and you'll see lots of messages about rattles, fit and finish problems, as well as messages about "I'll never buy another Acura product."
Yes, message boards are biased, because people who are really upset about their cars will post, and people who are happy with their cars won't post as often. However, my point is that if you look at the problems that people are experiencing - rattles, fit and finish problems, tranny problems - all these problems should never have happened (esp. to so many TLs) because Honda's QC should have identified and corrected them before the cars leave the factory.
You don't hear the same complains about quality problems with the G2 Legends, the Vigor (well, except some Vigors have hair in the paint), and even the G1 TL. People did complain about the rear seat leg room in the Vigor and G1 TL, but those are design issues, not quality issues. I'm sure most of us would agree that a G2 Legend is about as perfect a car as Honda could possibly build, even compared to today's technologies.
So, if Honda/Acura's quality is not going downhill, then I don't know what is. Yes, Honda/Acura's quality is still much better than many other brands, but when compared to its previous models, Honda/Acura's quality is definitely lower.
07-29-2003, 10:49 AM
#1696
VtecMW,
Don't get me wrong. Everything else about the car is perfect for me. I am very particular about small details of the car. I have certain mental image of how a car should look (ie. clean/conservative like MB). For example, when I bought my current TL, I always thought that the rear license plate should be in the trunk instead of in the bumper, and the door handle should be pull type (ala MB). Well, the new TL seems to address this issue. However, it also manages to add some design details that I don't like. Those of you who were around in Acura-TL. com (or whatever it was called then) should remember my complaint. But, heck, I don't even remember my screen name there. I gave up after the server crashed many times. This was of course years ago.
Oh well, no car is perfect, and most car purchases are compromises. I didn't do anything to my current TL to address the "imperfection" and I think I will most likely just keep it as is if I buy this new TL.
Notice the indentation flow smoothly from the front, and continues to the rear, and flow to the taillights/rear trunk. If the new TL indentation doesn't get interrupted abruptly by the side markers it would have been better
If this is all the trouble that you'd go through to mod the car to your liking, this is more than likely not the car for you.
Oh well, no car is perfect, and most car purchases are compromises. I didn't do anything to my current TL to address the "imperfection" and I think I will most likely just keep it as is if I buy this new TL.
Notice the indentation flow smoothly from the front, and continues to the rear, and flow to the taillights/rear trunk. If the new TL indentation doesn't get interrupted abruptly by the side markers it would have been better
07-29-2003, 11:06 AM
#1697
Drifting
Originally posted by 99TL
One more thing Jason:
.......................
So, if Honda/Acura's quality is not going downhill, then I don't know what is. Yes, Honda/Acura's quality is still much better than many other brands, but when compared to its previous models, Honda/Acura's quality is definitely lower.
One more thing Jason:
.......................
So, if Honda/Acura's quality is not going downhill, then I don't know what is. Yes, Honda/Acura's quality is still much better than many other brands, but when compared to its previous models, Honda/Acura's quality is definitely lower.
I think quality problems get blown out of proportion when a few users posts about their problems. This is just a small cross-section of owners, and the results are close to insignificant when 10 people or less post about a problem. 15 out of 150 owners is nothing. That's just hypothetical of course, but Larchmont and I figured it out and any problems posted by 15 or fewer owners (out of hundreds on the board) is statistically insignificant (except to those 15 guys).
Also, and this may be a minor point, but owners of first and second generation Acuras are not around any more. A few may have them, but that's it. There were no forums in those days so who knows what the majority of those owners would be saying. Anyone who posts today about their 1st or 2nd Gen Acuras they are currently driving of course are going to point out how great their cars are. They still own them!
07-29-2003, 11:53 AM
#1698
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Jason,
Please don't get me wrong - I was not trying to question your qualifications on speaking about these matters. I was simply referring to the fact that you have a 100% Made in Japan TSX, so you probably will not know about the problems that the owners of US built Acura TLs have to face.
Since you have a 01 CL-S, you should definitely know what I'm talking about - don't you have any rattles in your armrest? How about imperfect paint finish (very small dimples in the paint), and thin paint? How about creaky driver's seat? How about a squeaky moonroof when you drive over bumps?
Yes, the UA5 TL was very successful, but that doesn't mean its quality is high (in absolute terms). It's probably much higher than the competition, but as I mentioned before, the quality of the UA5 TL is much lower when compared to the previous generations Honda/Acura cars. I've owned a 88 Accord EX-i, a 90 Accord EX-R, a 92 Vigor GS, a 95 Legend Coupe Type II, and now my 99 TL, all bought brand new. And as mentioned before, my cousin has a 02 RL, a friend has a 04 TSX, and another friend has a 02 RSX-S as well as a 92 NSX. Yes, as you can see, I'm surrounded by Honda/Acura cars! The 99TL has by far the worst quality out of all these cars I have mentioned, even my 88 Accord EX-i had better quality!
Yes, problems mentioned by TL owners on message boards are probably a very small cross-section of all owners, but we're talking about problems like tranny problems, and as I mentioned before, we're talking about a Honda product here, and I don't think any one would expect a Honda product to have such a fundamental problem as a transmission problem - Honda has been building cars with automatic transmissions for a long time, I don't recall ever hearing so many people having major problems with their Honda transmissions (when brand new) or even rattles inside the car, until the UA5 TL came out.
FYI, there are still a few boards that talk about G1 and G2 Acuras: www.honda-acura.net, www.acuravigorclub.com, and www.legend-forum.com. No, people do complain about things with the G1 and G2 Acuras - e.g. the door hinges on the G1 Legend coupes were not strong enough to support the bigger doors of the coupes, thus, the door sags downwards over time. But I wouldn't call this a quality problem - it's more like a design problem - Honda should have used a stronger hinge than using the same hinge as used on the Legend sedan (with smaller doors).
Please don't get me wrong - I was not trying to question your qualifications on speaking about these matters. I was simply referring to the fact that you have a 100% Made in Japan TSX, so you probably will not know about the problems that the owners of US built Acura TLs have to face.
Since you have a 01 CL-S, you should definitely know what I'm talking about - don't you have any rattles in your armrest? How about imperfect paint finish (very small dimples in the paint), and thin paint? How about creaky driver's seat? How about a squeaky moonroof when you drive over bumps?
Yes, the UA5 TL was very successful, but that doesn't mean its quality is high (in absolute terms). It's probably much higher than the competition, but as I mentioned before, the quality of the UA5 TL is much lower when compared to the previous generations Honda/Acura cars. I've owned a 88 Accord EX-i, a 90 Accord EX-R, a 92 Vigor GS, a 95 Legend Coupe Type II, and now my 99 TL, all bought brand new. And as mentioned before, my cousin has a 02 RL, a friend has a 04 TSX, and another friend has a 02 RSX-S as well as a 92 NSX. Yes, as you can see, I'm surrounded by Honda/Acura cars! The 99TL has by far the worst quality out of all these cars I have mentioned, even my 88 Accord EX-i had better quality!
Yes, problems mentioned by TL owners on message boards are probably a very small cross-section of all owners, but we're talking about problems like tranny problems, and as I mentioned before, we're talking about a Honda product here, and I don't think any one would expect a Honda product to have such a fundamental problem as a transmission problem - Honda has been building cars with automatic transmissions for a long time, I don't recall ever hearing so many people having major problems with their Honda transmissions (when brand new) or even rattles inside the car, until the UA5 TL came out.
FYI, there are still a few boards that talk about G1 and G2 Acuras: www.honda-acura.net, www.acuravigorclub.com, and www.legend-forum.com. No, people do complain about things with the G1 and G2 Acuras - e.g. the door hinges on the G1 Legend coupes were not strong enough to support the bigger doors of the coupes, thus, the door sags downwards over time. But I wouldn't call this a quality problem - it's more like a design problem - Honda should have used a stronger hinge than using the same hinge as used on the Legend sedan (with smaller doors).
07-29-2003, 12:03 PM
#1699
Drifting
Originally posted by 99TL
Since you have a 01 CL-S, you should definitely know what I'm talking about - don't you have any rattles in your armrest? How about imperfect paint finish (very small dimples in the paint), and thin paint? How about creaky driver's seat? How about a squeaky moonroof when you drive over bumps?
Since you have a 01 CL-S, you should definitely know what I'm talking about - don't you have any rattles in your armrest? How about imperfect paint finish (very small dimples in the paint), and thin paint? How about creaky driver's seat? How about a squeaky moonroof when you drive over bumps?
07-29-2003, 12:30 PM
#1700
Maybe I am just too obsessed with the new TL, but, did anyone else see the Lotus Esprit from the side profile, especially from the B pillar back?
About the quality of the current TL, yes, I am not that happy with my 1999 TL, both in details quality, and in dealer treatment.
However, the fact that I am still on this board, and hitting refresh as fast as my fingers can do for the new TL information tells you that I haven't planned on getting a different brand.
Maybe it is a loyalty thing, or maybe because the way all Honda cars feel.
About the quality of the current TL, yes, I am not that happy with my 1999 TL, both in details quality, and in dealer treatment.
However, the fact that I am still on this board, and hitting refresh as fast as my fingers can do for the new TL information tells you that I haven't planned on getting a different brand.
Maybe it is a loyalty thing, or maybe because the way all Honda cars feel.
07-29-2003, 12:41 PM
#1701
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Originally posted by RJC RSX
Lycos just emailed me back and he has full-res pictures he's sending me later today. The one's you see are reduced in size, and with a full-res pic of the interior, we should be able to make out a whole lot more!
Lycos just emailed me back and he has full-res pictures he's sending me later today. The one's you see are reduced in size, and with a full-res pic of the interior, we should be able to make out a whole lot more!
07-29-2003, 01:23 PM
#1702
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Originally posted by 99TL
In my opinion, if Acura wants the TL to compete with the german cars - Audi A6, BMW 5 series, MB E class, and the TSX to compete with Audi A4, BMW 3 series, MB C class, then all Acura has to do is price the TL and the TSX slightly cheaper with the same equipment and performance level as the competitors, and people who drive those other luxury brands will start looking at Acuras.
In my opinion, if Acura wants the TL to compete with the german cars - Audi A6, BMW 5 series, MB E class, and the TSX to compete with Audi A4, BMW 3 series, MB C class, then all Acura has to do is price the TL and the TSX slightly cheaper with the same equipment and performance level as the competitors, and people who drive those other luxury brands will start looking at Acuras.
No, I think Acura is marketing the TL to go against the upper level near-luxury market such as the A4 3.0, 330i, C320, G35 and ES300 and the TSX is to go against the lower level near-luxury such as the A4 1.8T, 325i and C230. Meanwhile, I think the new RL will be going after the upper end models like the A6, 545i and E class models because its that will be the price range that it will fall into and give Acura a well rounded model range without big gaps. Plus, once you move the RL upmarket, this will allow the TL to have some upward growth too with maybe an AWD option. I too would have to agree that an AWD model would be a nice, but as an option only. I think Acura will wait until the new RL comes out with it before the TL will see it. This way, the TL AWD pricing won't be the same or more than the currrent RL. I know the current RL is really dated, but we still have to consider that the dealers still have plenty of them and have to try to sell them.
Sorry for replying to a post 2 or 3 pages back too.
07-29-2003, 01:31 PM
#1703
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"About the only thing is that my moonroof does have a slight rattle over bumps, but it's no big deal."
Jason:
I think you just pointed out exactly what 99TL is trying to say. I think you will find less of the rattles and doodads like that on the Lexus models.
More to the point, what does Acura want to do? Do they want to make cars that truly compete against the Mercs, BMWs and Lexus of the world, or do they just want to make cars that are a notch above the Honda line but may be not in the same class as Merc, BMW, Lexus etc? Acura's advertisements and salespeople would have you believe that they are competing against the higher makes, but public perception is different. Lexus has done an outstanding job by coming out with truly high-end cars with the prices to boot, but still comes in at $2000 to $3000 less than the comparable BMWs and Mercs. Infiniti has made a decision to do the same of which the G35 is the first success. Lexus and Inifiniti also has done a great job differentiating their Toyota and Nissan lines with the Lexus and Infinitis.
Let me play some mind games. Why did Honda send the S2000 to the Honda line and make it a barebones RWD two-seater? That doesn't fit Honda's image as everyday cars, with some models designed to be sporty. They should have sold the S2000 as an Acura model with the same amenities you would find in a Merc SLK or Z3/Z4. Then Acura would have a RWD sportscar that isn't quite as expensive as the NSX but would be a lot of fun to drive. Now the NSX really needs an upgrade, but that's another story (when that car came out, I was convinced Acura was getting it right....now I have no idea). It just seems like something is not translating well between Honda and Acura.
Now the new TL needs to leapfrog because like it or not, we are probably stuck with this model for the next 4-7 years. By that time technology and advances in performance will move forward. But if you start with a car that has just caught up to the others or is only slightly ahead, then you are just continuously playing a catch-up game. Lets see when the new BMW 3 and 5 Series comes out. Could Acura then say honestly that they are competing against those cars?
It would be nice if someone from Acura (I'm sure some of you are out there on this board including salesmen) could verify what the plan is.
Jason:
I think you just pointed out exactly what 99TL is trying to say. I think you will find less of the rattles and doodads like that on the Lexus models.
More to the point, what does Acura want to do? Do they want to make cars that truly compete against the Mercs, BMWs and Lexus of the world, or do they just want to make cars that are a notch above the Honda line but may be not in the same class as Merc, BMW, Lexus etc? Acura's advertisements and salespeople would have you believe that they are competing against the higher makes, but public perception is different. Lexus has done an outstanding job by coming out with truly high-end cars with the prices to boot, but still comes in at $2000 to $3000 less than the comparable BMWs and Mercs. Infiniti has made a decision to do the same of which the G35 is the first success. Lexus and Inifiniti also has done a great job differentiating their Toyota and Nissan lines with the Lexus and Infinitis.
Let me play some mind games. Why did Honda send the S2000 to the Honda line and make it a barebones RWD two-seater? That doesn't fit Honda's image as everyday cars, with some models designed to be sporty. They should have sold the S2000 as an Acura model with the same amenities you would find in a Merc SLK or Z3/Z4. Then Acura would have a RWD sportscar that isn't quite as expensive as the NSX but would be a lot of fun to drive. Now the NSX really needs an upgrade, but that's another story (when that car came out, I was convinced Acura was getting it right....now I have no idea). It just seems like something is not translating well between Honda and Acura.
Now the new TL needs to leapfrog because like it or not, we are probably stuck with this model for the next 4-7 years. By that time technology and advances in performance will move forward. But if you start with a car that has just caught up to the others or is only slightly ahead, then you are just continuously playing a catch-up game. Lets see when the new BMW 3 and 5 Series comes out. Could Acura then say honestly that they are competing against those cars?
It would be nice if someone from Acura (I'm sure some of you are out there on this board including salesmen) could verify what the plan is.
07-29-2003, 01:56 PM
#1704
Drifting
Originally posted by Gebbeth
"About the only thing is that my moonroof does have a slight rattle over bumps, but it's no big deal."
Jason:
I think you just pointed out exactly what 99TL is trying to say. I think you will find less of the rattles and doodads like that on the Lexus models.
"About the only thing is that my moonroof does have a slight rattle over bumps, but it's no big deal."
Jason:
I think you just pointed out exactly what 99TL is trying to say. I think you will find less of the rattles and doodads like that on the Lexus models.
07-29-2003, 02:01 PM
#1705
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Originally posted by prballard
Have these hi-res pics been posted yet?? When and where?
Have these hi-res pics been posted yet?? When and where?
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=120262
A FEW are higher resolution, you can tell as they are outlined in red and say "click for larger image" underneath.
Not all photos do this on the page.
07-29-2003, 02:11 PM
#1706
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Originally posted by Jason
Actually, I pointed out exactly the opposite. 99TL infers that a majority of American-made Hondas/Acuras have problems, and I said my car had one rattle. This is no different than any Lexus and certainly not different than any BMW or MB, which has all kinds of problems (perceived, I've never owned one...actually, my Dad owned a MB, it was shit). No car is perfect under 100K.
Actually, I pointed out exactly the opposite. 99TL infers that a majority of American-made Hondas/Acuras have problems, and I said my car had one rattle. This is no different than any Lexus and certainly not different than any BMW or MB, which has all kinds of problems (perceived, I've never owned one...actually, my Dad owned a MB, it was shit). No car is perfect under 100K.
Even look at the new 7 series, the MB's (they have gotten a lot of bad press lately) and old style 7's. I know of people who have them in the shop for days each time they are in. A friend has a 2000 740i, at 20K miles the brakes were shot, cost to replace was $900 (pads and rotors), A/C unit keeps filling with water in fan area, nav screen randomly turns off, interior trim that the paint wore off, door hinge that had to be replaced, several emission recalls, AND the HIGH cost of maintenance.
I have yet to hear of a reliable BMW to date, fit and finish, usualy good, but, have seen issues where panels were not secured properly too, then there are the constant repairs, good thing the give out loaner 5 series, or people would hate to bring their car, in, now they love to
07-29-2003, 02:36 PM
#1707
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Jason: I'm getting rattles in the sunroof and rattles in the door panels of both front passenger and drivers side doors. I'm not the only one either (look at the Problems forum).
That being said, my main point again was not the rattles issue (although that is also important), but where Acura is headed and what they want to do. I still haven't seen an answer.
As for S500s, Ferraris, Austin Martins, etc. having rattles and problems, lets get real. As a car enthusiast, would you turn down these cars if you could buy one. The Ferraris and Austins, they are super-luxury cars not designed for everyday use or to be maintained by your everyday mechanic. That's not why you buy these cars, but if you want to drive them everyday, well, that's your perogative. But this is comparing apples to oranges. Lets do a more realistic comparison.
Lexus is ranked number one in initial quality (okay, I'm gonna get more arguments about how those polls are conducted....if you got a better poll, let me know). Acura/Honda is better than average but ranks in the lower half of the top ten. In terms of name brands and the value and respect that they get around the world, Merc is in the top ten of ALL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD (not just car companies). Toyota ranks higher than Honda in this regard too (see latest Businessweek article, August issue).
What do these numbers mean? Acura/Honda has high quality, but not as high as Lexus/Toyota. In terms of prestige, both Merc and Lexus/Toyota beat Honda/Acura. Although this last one isn't scientifically based, ask 100 random people in this country what would you view as a more prestigious make, a higher quality car, a more luxurious car and a car that you would want if you could afford it, my guess is that Merc, BMW, Lexus would be up there. Acura would not. THIS IS THE PROBLEM ACURA IS FACING, BUT ONE IN WHICH ACURA DOES NOT SEEM TO WANT TO ADDRESS. The new TL does not address this problem if what I am hearing is the final version of the car.
Remember, a lot, A LOT is riding on this new TL. IT MUST BE A SUCCESS or else Acura is in trouble. Honda will get squeezed between the high end and lower end if they don't make a decision what they want to do. They need to make that clear to the consumer.
That being said, my main point again was not the rattles issue (although that is also important), but where Acura is headed and what they want to do. I still haven't seen an answer.
As for S500s, Ferraris, Austin Martins, etc. having rattles and problems, lets get real. As a car enthusiast, would you turn down these cars if you could buy one. The Ferraris and Austins, they are super-luxury cars not designed for everyday use or to be maintained by your everyday mechanic. That's not why you buy these cars, but if you want to drive them everyday, well, that's your perogative. But this is comparing apples to oranges. Lets do a more realistic comparison.
Lexus is ranked number one in initial quality (okay, I'm gonna get more arguments about how those polls are conducted....if you got a better poll, let me know). Acura/Honda is better than average but ranks in the lower half of the top ten. In terms of name brands and the value and respect that they get around the world, Merc is in the top ten of ALL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD (not just car companies). Toyota ranks higher than Honda in this regard too (see latest Businessweek article, August issue).
What do these numbers mean? Acura/Honda has high quality, but not as high as Lexus/Toyota. In terms of prestige, both Merc and Lexus/Toyota beat Honda/Acura. Although this last one isn't scientifically based, ask 100 random people in this country what would you view as a more prestigious make, a higher quality car, a more luxurious car and a car that you would want if you could afford it, my guess is that Merc, BMW, Lexus would be up there. Acura would not. THIS IS THE PROBLEM ACURA IS FACING, BUT ONE IN WHICH ACURA DOES NOT SEEM TO WANT TO ADDRESS. The new TL does not address this problem if what I am hearing is the final version of the car.
Remember, a lot, A LOT is riding on this new TL. IT MUST BE A SUCCESS or else Acura is in trouble. Honda will get squeezed between the high end and lower end if they don't make a decision what they want to do. They need to make that clear to the consumer.
07-29-2003, 02:57 PM
#1708
Drifting
Originally posted by Gebbeth
[B]Jason: I'm getting rattles in the sunroof and rattles in the door panels of both front passenger and drivers side doors. I'm not the only one either (look at the Problems forum).
[B]Jason: I'm getting rattles in the sunroof and rattles in the door panels of both front passenger and drivers side doors. I'm not the only one either (look at the Problems forum).
Although this last one isn't scientifically based, ask 100 random people in this country what would you view as a more prestigious make, a higher quality car, a more luxurious car and a car that you would want if you could afford it, my guess is that Merc, BMW, Lexus would be up there. Acura would not. THIS IS THE PROBLEM ACURA IS FACING, BUT ONE IN WHICH ACURA DOES NOT SEEM TO WANT TO ADDRESS. The new TL does not address this problem if what I am hearing is the final version of the car.
Also realize that Acura seems content to let Lexus, MB, and BMW continue to offer cars at the high end of the spectrum. Honda will continue to profit from the lower and middle part of the luxury spectrum. I'm pleased I can drive such a nice car without attracting attention to myself. HMC did realize 90% of their profits from the NA market, so I think they know what they're doing here.
07-29-2003, 03:35 PM
#1709
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"HMC did realize 90% of their profits from the NA market, so I think they know what they're doing here."
That says nothing. How much of that was Acura, how much of that was Honda? How about worldwide vs. NA? What were those numbers and how much of the market was that compared to BMW, Lexus, Merc and Infiniti? Was that 90% and increase or decrease from last year? I know I'm exaggerating, but to give you an example, 90% of $1.00 is $0.90 cents, no big deal.
But your statistic is useful in showing one thing which you probably didn't expect, Honda/Acura must not be as well-liked around the world as it is in NA. AGAIN YOU ARE PROVING MY POINT!!!! Perception is that Acura is not there compared to the other makes. It is not as prestigious and doesn't carry the same name value, which in the public's mind equates to quality, performance, and an all-around better car (whether true or not). The only way you are going to do that is come out with a kick-ss car that blows people away, quality, build and performance. People will pay for that. BMW 330i fully loaded is $10,000 - $12,000 more than a TSX and probably $8,000 more than the TL. Yet BMW is king in the entry luxury car market. What do they sell 100,000 cars a year? You think Acura wouldn't want those kinds of sales? Who are they alienating and how many people are that? How much profit is made per car?
Acura has got to stop twidding around. From marketing to product, they need to decide what they want to do. They can't offer a car as a 3 Series competitor and then not offer a 6 cyn RWD or AWD car. They can't offer a car that is suppossed to compete against the 5 Series and yet not offer the same amenities and performance. They need to get on track and be on the same page.
That says nothing. How much of that was Acura, how much of that was Honda? How about worldwide vs. NA? What were those numbers and how much of the market was that compared to BMW, Lexus, Merc and Infiniti? Was that 90% and increase or decrease from last year? I know I'm exaggerating, but to give you an example, 90% of $1.00 is $0.90 cents, no big deal.
But your statistic is useful in showing one thing which you probably didn't expect, Honda/Acura must not be as well-liked around the world as it is in NA. AGAIN YOU ARE PROVING MY POINT!!!! Perception is that Acura is not there compared to the other makes. It is not as prestigious and doesn't carry the same name value, which in the public's mind equates to quality, performance, and an all-around better car (whether true or not). The only way you are going to do that is come out with a kick-ss car that blows people away, quality, build and performance. People will pay for that. BMW 330i fully loaded is $10,000 - $12,000 more than a TSX and probably $8,000 more than the TL. Yet BMW is king in the entry luxury car market. What do they sell 100,000 cars a year? You think Acura wouldn't want those kinds of sales? Who are they alienating and how many people are that? How much profit is made per car?
Acura has got to stop twidding around. From marketing to product, they need to decide what they want to do. They can't offer a car as a 3 Series competitor and then not offer a 6 cyn RWD or AWD car. They can't offer a car that is suppossed to compete against the 5 Series and yet not offer the same amenities and performance. They need to get on track and be on the same page.
07-29-2003, 03:36 PM
#1710
If you want to know what a Quartz interior looks like go to your local Acura dealer and check out a Sagebrush MDX or a Meteor Silver TSX. Both are only available with Quartz interiors so that should help. 
07-29-2003, 04:06 PM
#1711
Drifting
Originally posted by Gebbeth
[B]But your statistic is useful in showing one thing which you probably didn't expect, Honda/Acura must not be as well-liked around the world as it is in NA. AGAIN YOU ARE PROVING MY POINT!!!!
[B]But your statistic is useful in showing one thing which you probably didn't expect, Honda/Acura must not be as well-liked around the world as it is in NA. AGAIN YOU ARE PROVING MY POINT!!!!
First point: Acura may not be as prestigious because it's not as expensive. You equate prestige with dollars. Acura will never have cars as expensive as the Germans, so it's a moot point. Done.
Second point: Acura is not interested in pitting a $26K TSX against a $39K 330i. This whole notion is ridiculous. The customer shopping for the 330i is not the same as a TSX customer. Quit deluding yourself. Acura has it's customer base and they currently pay no more than $35K for a TL. Should Acura change the formula that works for them because you think they should?
Third point: The TSX doesn't need a V6, RWD or AWD to compete with the 325i because it's as good a car without it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice, but lets not chastise the car for not offering it. The TL competes with the base 5-series in the same way. Why does Acura have to offer every gadget know to man to compete with a car that is priced higher in base trim and has leather seating as an option? The new TL will SMOKE the next entry-level 5-series.
07-29-2003, 04:12 PM
#1712
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Again, Gebbeth, very well said!
To me, I think the Acura brand is basically "gone" - it will probably be too difficult to change the public's perception of the brand, which is just a more luxurious/glorified Honda.
Maybe Honda needs to introduce another brand that will compete with the likes of Lexus, Infiniti, MB, BMW, etc.?
Here's an example of why Lexus has a better brand image than Honda - in Japan, all Honda made vehicles are called Honda. And all Toyota made vehicles are called Toyota (e.g. Toyota Celsior is our Lexus LS430, Toyota Harrier is our Lexus RX330). However, in the very near future, Toyota is going to introduce the Lexus brand in Japan (its home country) - simply because the Lexus brand is such a powerful luxury brand - even Japan's own people find that Lexus is almost like a different make - they don't think of Lexus as a Toyota. For anyone who doesn't know, Lexus is actually an acronym - Luxury EXperiment for the US, and I must say this experiment is indeed a very successful one.
No body in Japan has even heard of Acura (yes, it doesn't exist in Japan, but Lexus doesn't either), because the brand is just not at the same level as Lexus. Period. I have even emailed my friends in Japan asking them what they know about the Acura and Lexus brands, and all of them replied with something like "Isn't Acura just an upscale Honda? Lexus is a much higher class brand and we are going to have that brand in Japan soon."
To me, I think the Acura brand is basically "gone" - it will probably be too difficult to change the public's perception of the brand, which is just a more luxurious/glorified Honda.
Maybe Honda needs to introduce another brand that will compete with the likes of Lexus, Infiniti, MB, BMW, etc.?
Here's an example of why Lexus has a better brand image than Honda - in Japan, all Honda made vehicles are called Honda. And all Toyota made vehicles are called Toyota (e.g. Toyota Celsior is our Lexus LS430, Toyota Harrier is our Lexus RX330). However, in the very near future, Toyota is going to introduce the Lexus brand in Japan (its home country) - simply because the Lexus brand is such a powerful luxury brand - even Japan's own people find that Lexus is almost like a different make - they don't think of Lexus as a Toyota. For anyone who doesn't know, Lexus is actually an acronym - Luxury EXperiment for the US, and I must say this experiment is indeed a very successful one.
No body in Japan has even heard of Acura (yes, it doesn't exist in Japan, but Lexus doesn't either), because the brand is just not at the same level as Lexus. Period. I have even emailed my friends in Japan asking them what they know about the Acura and Lexus brands, and all of them replied with something like "Isn't Acura just an upscale Honda? Lexus is a much higher class brand and we are going to have that brand in Japan soon."
07-29-2003, 04:23 PM
#1713
Cruisin'
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Gebbeth,
I'll leave this one for you to reply - I don't think I have the energy to try to get our points across to Jason. Apparently he's very loyal to Honda and anything that's made by Honda is good from his perspective.
I'll leave this one for you to reply - I don't think I have the energy to try to get our points across to Jason. Apparently he's very loyal to Honda and anything that's made by Honda is good from his perspective.
Originally posted by Jason
How can I prove your point when you can't seem to make one? I thought we were talking about the NA market here since IT IS ACURA'S ONLY MARKET! WTF are you talking about? You spout out so much garbage here I don't even know how to respond.
First point: Acura may not be as prestigious because it's not as expensive. You equate prestige with dollars. Acura will never have cars as expensive as the Germans, so it's a moot point. Done.
Second point: Acura is not interested in pitting a $26K TSX against a $39K 330i. This whole notion is ridiculous. The customer shopping for the 330i is not the same as a TSX customer. Quit deluding yourself. Acura has it's customer base and they currently pay no more than $35K for a TL. Should Acura change the formula that works for them because you think they should?
Third point: The TSX doesn't need a V6, RWD or AWD to compete with the 325i because it's as good a car without it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice, but lets not chastise the car for not offering it. The TL competes with the base 5-series in the same way. Why does Acura have to offer every gadget know to man to compete with a car that is priced higher in base trim and has leather seating as an option? The new TL will SMOKE the next entry-level 5-series.
How can I prove your point when you can't seem to make one? I thought we were talking about the NA market here since IT IS ACURA'S ONLY MARKET! WTF are you talking about? You spout out so much garbage here I don't even know how to respond.
First point: Acura may not be as prestigious because it's not as expensive. You equate prestige with dollars. Acura will never have cars as expensive as the Germans, so it's a moot point. Done.
Second point: Acura is not interested in pitting a $26K TSX against a $39K 330i. This whole notion is ridiculous. The customer shopping for the 330i is not the same as a TSX customer. Quit deluding yourself. Acura has it's customer base and they currently pay no more than $35K for a TL. Should Acura change the formula that works for them because you think they should?
Third point: The TSX doesn't need a V6, RWD or AWD to compete with the 325i because it's as good a car without it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice, but lets not chastise the car for not offering it. The TL competes with the base 5-series in the same way. Why does Acura have to offer every gadget know to man to compete with a car that is priced higher in base trim and has leather seating as an option? The new TL will SMOKE the next entry-level 5-series.
07-29-2003, 04:34 PM
#1714
Intermediate
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 55
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have you noticed how cost effective Acura is.
They are using the same dash and steering wheel for all the interior colors. Also notice the placement of all the dark leather/plastic/vinyl so soil marks dont show.
I did'nt notice the Bose insignia on any of the speaker grates
They are using the same dash and steering wheel for all the interior colors. Also notice the placement of all the dark leather/plastic/vinyl so soil marks dont show.
I did'nt notice the Bose insignia on any of the speaker grates
07-29-2003, 05:38 PM
#1716
Advanced
Join Date: Apr 2003
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How can I prove your point when you can't seem to make one? I thought we were talking about the NA market here since IT IS ACURA'S ONLY MARKET! WTF are you talking about? You spout out so much garbage here I don't even know how to respond.
________________________
Jason, you said that 90% of Honda's profits came from NA. But you didn't break that down. How much of that profit in NA, for example, was Acura compared to Honda. My guess is that Honda outsold Acura, so of that 90%, 70% might have been Honda sales and not Acura sales. Then you didn't provide acutal numbers, for example, $100,000,000 or $50,000,000? If the "profit" was small, Acura's actual numbers may not be that good. My other point was, so even if it was a good year for Acura or Honda, "good" is relative as their competitors may have much larger profits, sell more cars, have more market share. So there needs to be a comparison. I believe in the entry level catagory, BMW is still the market leader in sales. Also, you are right, Acuras are only sold in NA, but the same, or substantially similar cars, are sold as Honda's worldwide. It's just a name. So still, your numbers prove my point. If 90% of Honda's total profits are from NA, it seems that most of the rest of the world does not perceive Honda in the same light as Toyota, BMW or Merc, etc.
____________________________
"First point: Acura may not be as prestigious because it's not as expensive. You equate prestige with dollars. Acura will never have cars as expensive as the Germans, so it's a moot point. Done."
________________________
Missing the point. You need to look at my other posts. Acura, if it decided to do so, can move upscale and still deliver a product that is lower priced than it's so called competitors. Yet it hasn't done so. My argument is that there is a market here that a lot of people have and will pay for. That is what they want and as BMW has shown, they will pay. But Honda/Acura has to decide wants to do. You seem to be saying they don't want to do that and move upscale. Fine. If you are right, more power to them. But the history of business is strewn with companies that had their niche squeezed out by competitors and that is my fear. Let's see how the new RL is and see if you theory is right, because A) if the new RL is another 6 cyn model, what is the point? and B) if it is some ultra-luxury model, then according to your argument, Acura is sending mixed signals about its line (upscale or not so upscale). The TL is in danger of this.
______________________
Second point: Acura is not interested in pitting a $26K TSX against a $39K 330i. This whole notion is ridiculous. The customer shopping for the 330i is not the same as a TSX customer. Quit deluding yourself. Acura has it's customer base and they currently pay no more than $35K for a TL. Should Acura change the formula that works for them because you think they should?
______________________
Tell that to Honda/Acura and its salespeople. The comparisons I hear all the time are Audi 1.8T, BMW 325 and Lexus IS300, all of which I think outsell the TSX at this time. Also at $35,000, TL is then competing against the 325 in terms of price, but below you then say that the TL will blow away the 5 Series. Again, what car is it competing against? My point is a subtle one. People buy cars in one of two ways. They are enthusiasts and have one car in mind. It's hard to change this kind of person's perception (i.e., some people want to buy a Civic and spend another $10,000 souping it up...for the same total cost, they could probably get a higher performance car, but they don't want to). A lot of people want a BMW, they get a BMW.
Others look at a car they like and check to see other cars in the same price point and compare. Here is where the public perception and price come into play. At $35,000, the TL is priced around the 325i fully loaded. Therefore, in the public's perception they are competitors. But if the TL is Acura's mid-size car, it should compete with the 5 Series. That's not how the public will think. Thus Acura's product line is already perceived as one notch below where it should be car for car. My whole point is, Acura has got to move up the line. Make it a true lux line. TSX should really compete with both the 325 and the 330i. Think about it. Almost same size, almost same power. Why not build the thing to compete, and I am confident Honda can still make it for $5,000 less. TL, offer the car in a trim it needs to be in to compete with the 530 and 540. I guarantee Honda can price it $5000 - 7000 cheaper. Honda is not aiming high for what it calls it's luxury division. And Jason, I am a Honda fan. Why would I be wasting my time here talking about it? I'm just disappointed at some of the latest offerings in both the Honda and Acura line.
__________________________
Third point: The TSX doesn't need a V6, RWD or AWD to compete with the 325i because it's as good a car without it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice, but lets not chastise the car for not offering it. The TL competes with the base 5-series in the same way. Why does Acura have to offer every gadget know to man to compete with a car that is priced higher in base trim and has leather seating as an option? The new TL will SMOKE the next entry-level 5-series.
__________________________
Jason, you raise good points, but I don't make the rules. 99TL points out that Lexus in now going back to Japan as Lexus. This is huge. It means that Lexus now has the prestige badge it so highly coveted. They did it right. I am just a little sad that Acura was here first and seems to have strayed from its course.
________________________
Jason, you said that 90% of Honda's profits came from NA. But you didn't break that down. How much of that profit in NA, for example, was Acura compared to Honda. My guess is that Honda outsold Acura, so of that 90%, 70% might have been Honda sales and not Acura sales. Then you didn't provide acutal numbers, for example, $100,000,000 or $50,000,000? If the "profit" was small, Acura's actual numbers may not be that good. My other point was, so even if it was a good year for Acura or Honda, "good" is relative as their competitors may have much larger profits, sell more cars, have more market share. So there needs to be a comparison. I believe in the entry level catagory, BMW is still the market leader in sales. Also, you are right, Acuras are only sold in NA, but the same, or substantially similar cars, are sold as Honda's worldwide. It's just a name. So still, your numbers prove my point. If 90% of Honda's total profits are from NA, it seems that most of the rest of the world does not perceive Honda in the same light as Toyota, BMW or Merc, etc.
____________________________
"First point: Acura may not be as prestigious because it's not as expensive. You equate prestige with dollars. Acura will never have cars as expensive as the Germans, so it's a moot point. Done."
________________________
Missing the point. You need to look at my other posts. Acura, if it decided to do so, can move upscale and still deliver a product that is lower priced than it's so called competitors. Yet it hasn't done so. My argument is that there is a market here that a lot of people have and will pay for. That is what they want and as BMW has shown, they will pay. But Honda/Acura has to decide wants to do. You seem to be saying they don't want to do that and move upscale. Fine. If you are right, more power to them. But the history of business is strewn with companies that had their niche squeezed out by competitors and that is my fear. Let's see how the new RL is and see if you theory is right, because A) if the new RL is another 6 cyn model, what is the point? and B) if it is some ultra-luxury model, then according to your argument, Acura is sending mixed signals about its line (upscale or not so upscale). The TL is in danger of this.
______________________
Second point: Acura is not interested in pitting a $26K TSX against a $39K 330i. This whole notion is ridiculous. The customer shopping for the 330i is not the same as a TSX customer. Quit deluding yourself. Acura has it's customer base and they currently pay no more than $35K for a TL. Should Acura change the formula that works for them because you think they should?
______________________
Tell that to Honda/Acura and its salespeople. The comparisons I hear all the time are Audi 1.8T, BMW 325 and Lexus IS300, all of which I think outsell the TSX at this time. Also at $35,000, TL is then competing against the 325 in terms of price, but below you then say that the TL will blow away the 5 Series. Again, what car is it competing against? My point is a subtle one. People buy cars in one of two ways. They are enthusiasts and have one car in mind. It's hard to change this kind of person's perception (i.e., some people want to buy a Civic and spend another $10,000 souping it up...for the same total cost, they could probably get a higher performance car, but they don't want to). A lot of people want a BMW, they get a BMW.
Others look at a car they like and check to see other cars in the same price point and compare. Here is where the public perception and price come into play. At $35,000, the TL is priced around the 325i fully loaded. Therefore, in the public's perception they are competitors. But if the TL is Acura's mid-size car, it should compete with the 5 Series. That's not how the public will think. Thus Acura's product line is already perceived as one notch below where it should be car for car. My whole point is, Acura has got to move up the line. Make it a true lux line. TSX should really compete with both the 325 and the 330i. Think about it. Almost same size, almost same power. Why not build the thing to compete, and I am confident Honda can still make it for $5,000 less. TL, offer the car in a trim it needs to be in to compete with the 530 and 540. I guarantee Honda can price it $5000 - 7000 cheaper. Honda is not aiming high for what it calls it's luxury division. And Jason, I am a Honda fan. Why would I be wasting my time here talking about it? I'm just disappointed at some of the latest offerings in both the Honda and Acura line.
__________________________
Third point: The TSX doesn't need a V6, RWD or AWD to compete with the 325i because it's as good a car without it. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice, but lets not chastise the car for not offering it. The TL competes with the base 5-series in the same way. Why does Acura have to offer every gadget know to man to compete with a car that is priced higher in base trim and has leather seating as an option? The new TL will SMOKE the next entry-level 5-series.
__________________________
Jason, you raise good points, but I don't make the rules. 99TL points out that Lexus in now going back to Japan as Lexus. This is huge. It means that Lexus now has the prestige badge it so highly coveted. They did it right. I am just a little sad that Acura was here first and seems to have strayed from its course.
07-29-2003, 06:08 PM
#1718
Drifting
Originally posted by Gebbeth
Tell that to Honda/Acura and its salespeople. The comparisons I hear all the time are Audi 1.8T, BMW 325 and Lexus IS300, all of which I think outsell the TSX at this time. Also at $35,000, TL is then competing against the 325 in terms of price, but below you then say that the TL will blow away the 5 Series. Again, what car is it competing against?...Others look at a car they like and check to see other cars in the same price point and compare. Here is where the public perception and price come into play. At $35,000, the TL is priced around the 325i fully loaded. Therefore, in the public's perception they are competitors. But if the TL is Acura's mid-size car, it should compete with the 5 Series. That's not how the public will think.
Tell that to Honda/Acura and its salespeople. The comparisons I hear all the time are Audi 1.8T, BMW 325 and Lexus IS300, all of which I think outsell the TSX at this time. Also at $35,000, TL is then competing against the 325 in terms of price, but below you then say that the TL will blow away the 5 Series. Again, what car is it competing against?...Others look at a car they like and check to see other cars in the same price point and compare. Here is where the public perception and price come into play. At $35,000, the TL is priced around the 325i fully loaded. Therefore, in the public's perception they are competitors. But if the TL is Acura's mid-size car, it should compete with the 5 Series. That's not how the public will think.
Keeping this in mind, if I need a true luxury midsize sedan, I'd (theoretically) look at Acura, BMW, MB, Audi, Caddy, Lincoln, Jaguar, Saab, Lexus, Infiniti, and Volvo. Would you say the TL offers similar features to those cars? I'd say so. Do you think the TL is sporty to those cars? Yes. Do you think the TL has size compared to those cars? One would assume so based on the current model.
So how does the TL not compare against those cars? Well, it will cost THOUSANDS less than any of those cars mentioned when similarly equipped. And as a result, some will think the car has less prestige. If a consumer buys a car based on prestige, I would agree that person would never buy an Acura. There is no denying it. But Acura does not have to be the most "prestigious" car in every consumer's eyes to produce a competitive car.
I'm awaiting your retort. Bring it!
07-29-2003, 06:51 PM
#1719
Banned
Originally posted by VtecMW
WHOA!!! I am about to lose my mind!!
This car looks GREAT!!! These images are absolutely great. Forget what the critics say. This car is hot. I can only imagine what it looks like in person. The black one has me drooling! 
- Are those LED taillights?
- On the 6MTs, did you happen to notice the type of tire that came with each, something that would help you distinguish between HPT and standard 6MT?
GREAT JOB!!!
Pontiac Grand Prix...
:pfawk: 
WHOA!!! I am about to lose my mind!!
This car looks GREAT!!! These images are absolutely great. Forget what the critics say. This car is hot. I can only imagine what it looks like in person. The black one has me drooling! - Are those LED taillights?
- On the 6MTs, did you happen to notice the type of tire that came with each, something that would help you distinguish between HPT and standard 6MT?
GREAT JOB!!!
Pontiac Grand Prix...
:pfawk:
07-29-2003, 07:12 PM
#1720
Banned
Originally posted by VtecMW
With the exception of the front end, which is quite obvious, can someone please point out the resemblance to the TSX. I just don't see it. It's not in the roofline. It's not in the rear. It's not in the side. It has a completely different character line.
I'd just like to know where people draw the resemblance.
With the exception of the front end, which is quite obvious, can someone please point out the resemblance to the TSX. I just don't see it. It's not in the roofline. It's not in the rear. It's not in the side. It has a completely different character line.
I'd just like to know where people draw the resemblance.
I have to say, I wish the TL's roofline had copied the TSX's. Judging from the pictures (which is ALWAYS a mistake), I think the squared-off rear window is jarring.