fsttyms1

Oh maybe because when i bought MY TL those really weren't available.

And i didnt come here and decide that i would give up a little more performance for value when i bought the car.

Is it too much for some to want "more" from the brand they like?

Shift_Acura

Well I guess you got richer. If we could all afford something like that, none of us would be here. Heck, if I could afford a G37 I wouldn't be here.

Dont forget that you are in the minority here. Very very very few people would even consider a $70k performance Acura. And even fewer would put there money where there mouth is.

Shift_Acura

RWD drive or supercharged motors weren't available when you bought the TL?? Did BMW or Mercedes not exist back then? Audi was already using turbo's, even Buick and Pontiac had supercharged motors

The TL was hampered by FWD when compared to BMW or Merc back then. You wouldn't say that's giving up a little bit in performance?

smarty666

I could care less if you think that about the Maxima. It's just a shame that you had all this pent up rage that seemed to boil over when I mentioned the rattle issue and the TL. Did not realize that would be the catalyst to annoy the hell out of you.

Costco

Cars are srs bsns.

DON'T YOU DARE INSULT WHAT I DRIVE!!! My car is simply better than yours and I don't agree with you so I'm going to belittle you and your car to make myself feel better!

Edward'TLS

Agree, I had a run in with this guy some time back, just because I bought an A6 instead of the RL. Back then, I was simply posting my real-life experience while shopping and cross-shopping for those cars. But this guy started coming on me because I didn't pick the ACURA RL, and questioned why I was still on Acurazine without knowing how much repair helps and suspension tuning experience I had contributed to the 2G sub-forum since year 2000.

It is always a complicated process shopping for cars, with all those choices out there and especially with $50K on the line. It could only experienced by someone who was willing to spend $50K, and had spent $50K on a car in real life, not in dreams.

I don't care if he will buy such car(s) now or in the future. If he has/will, I'll congratulate him. But with someone who wasn't in the stage of buying one, and had absolutely no idea of what buying a $50K car was like, started picking on my real-life shopping experience was then quite a hilarious scene.

Edward'TLS

Because I want to hit home my points, rather than dancing around starting comparing between cars while I'm intended to compare between engine technology.

Of course, you've nothing to respond to, because I was stating the facts. How could anyone argue with the FACTS. But if you have to consider facts as garbage, then I can't help you.

Competitors (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, G37 sedan, 328hp <-----
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp

Acura (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, RL, 300hp <-----
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp

My points are purely about engine technology between Honda and it's competitors :

- Fact : Honda is regarded as the world's best engine builder, not BMW, MB, Audi, Caddillac, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai.

- Fact : Honda is notoriously famous for generating more from less, i.e., make big hp with small engine displacement.

- Fact : Both the J-series 3.5L and 3.7L have been lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's bests for many years. The 3.5L since 2005, the the 3.7L since 2008.

- Fact : Every auto maker has a technology brick wall in engine tuning. Every time there's a new technology breakthrough (such as i-Vtec, DI, VANOS), more hp can be squeezed out, and the brick wall is being pushed further out.

- Fact : At this very moment, the J-series's best 3.5L is lagging behind the Toyota's best by 20hp and behind the Infiniti's best by 12hp. In other words, Honda hits the 3.5L techno brick wall 20hp earlier than Toyota's brick wall, and 12hp earlier than Infiniti's brick wall.

- Fact : At this very moment, the J-series's best 3.7L is lagging behind the Infiniti's best by 43hp. In other words, Honda hits the 3.7L techno brick wall 43hp earlier than Infiniti's brick wall.

- Fact : Rather than to work on the J-series 3.5L to tune out ~300hp like the industry's best, Honda has upped the displacement to 3.7L in order to match the industry's bests' 3.5L output achieved back in 2005.

- Fact : Lot's of credit must be given to Honda having have to hang on to the 15+ years old J-series engine desgin.

- Fact : It is obvious that the aging J-series cannot rival the modern engines from Toyota and Infiniti, but it still doesn't change the fact that the J-series is lagging behind in output hp against the industry's bests.

- Fact : Honda is working furiously on the next generation of V6 engines.


How can anyone argue with FACTS !?


- Comment : If the J-series is still tunable for more hp, why the need for new V6's ? For reputation, definitely Yes. The new V6's will be highly tunable for hp, unlike the aging J-series which is no more tunable to match the industry's bests. Honda wants to regain the lead as or at least on par with the industry's best, with a >300hp 3L/3.5L and a >330hp 3.2L/3.7L which cannot be achieved with the current J-series.

- Comment : Look for the output hp for the new V6's. If a couple years after their debut, the new 3.5L-V6 still remains at 286hp and the new 3.7L still at 305hp, then I concede. Otherwise, this is concrete evident that the J-series (being 15+ years old) is at the dying leg of hp development, and that no more significant hp can be squeeze out while still maintain reasonable fuel economy.

- Comment : The new V6 family is for Honda to continue the quest for more powerful engines, and to fulfill the doctrine of generating more from less, as well as big hp with good fuel economy.

- Comment : I suspect that the new V6 family will embrace i-Vtec and likely the Honda version of DI, and will eventually generate 260-280hp for 2.8L, 280-300hp for 3L; and perhap 330-350hp for 3.5L, and 350-380hp for 3.7L, especially towards the end of their development cycle at which they will be pushed to the limits.


Now my comments not concerning with engine technology :

Application wise, the overal Acura packages are good, but could use another 20-30hp more for the top-of-the-line trims. That would have been perfect. Any frugal buyers can still pick the base models if fuel economy is at the top of their agenda.

Shift_Acura

Fact: You have repeated yourself 16 times and refuse to reply to any comments pertaining to BMW/Merc/Audi or GM motors which all had less power than the J-Series or VQ series.

Fact: It is not a Fact that Honda is "The Best Engine Builder" in the world.

Fact: This time you will google search to find out the HP numbers of ALL the J series competitors, not just Infiniti's IPL.

smarty666

Well anyway, I did want to comment on the MMC changes to the TL before the hoopla started. The grill change definitely makes the car look better and some of the changes to the rear end. The 6spd auto is a nice addition to get some added mpg out of her and I like the fact they made is slightly quieter at highway speed. All changes to help get it going in the right direction. I'll leave final verdict for it when I see it in person at the NY Auto Show in April. Pictures online just never do any car justice.

Edward'TLS

Please read carefully. This talk in on "Honda engine technology against the industry's BEST".

This is all about the industry's bests. Not the losers. Why keep comparing with the losers, and not the world's best ? What good is it aiming for the losers ? Only by going after the industry's best can there be progress.

If you want to, we can start a new thread on "Honda engine technology against the losers". But this talk is on "Honda engine technology against the industry's best".

This is about engine technology when pushed to the limits. READ LIMITS. Not leisure engine tuning.

Ok, so you're scared to compare the Honda J-series with the industry's bests, and so keep using the losers for comparison. Then against the losers, Honda wins every time. Happy now.

So Honda is not the best engine builder in the world. Who is ? But even if it is not, it doesn't mean that the J-series V6 cannot go after the industry's bests. The J-series' BESTS are still lagging behind in hp against the industry's BESTS.

Once again, this is about the industry's BEST V6 production engines. This is about the J-series and the industry's best when PUSHED TO THE LIMITS in hp.

Competitors' BEST (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, G37 sedan, 328hp <-----
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp

Acura's BEST (Fact) :

2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, RL, 300hp <-----
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp

This is what I found. Need I google more.

VTEC Racer

I think Polly wants a cracker.

Shift_Acura

My first thought is

My second thought is

All the "loosers" with 335i's can step in any time now

Edward'TLS

Oh yes, I remember that one.

Back then, I had a family emergency and had to leave the country in a hurry. I had no internet access at all. Not only could I not continue to post, but I was also cut off from Acurazine for almost 5 months.

You said "near the top". But I want the TL to be at the very top, just like the 2G CL-S/TL-S back in 2002.

But if you want to dig out that 5 months old thread again, I'm more than welcome to be your guest.

With a veteran like myself since year 2000, I'm not scared of anything, other than my wife.

Edward'TLS

Funny that you're still talking about cars (335i), while fully aware that I'm talking purely about engine technology comparisons, not car comparisons.

VTEC Racer

....The good old days.

biker

... and SSTSX is not even in the thread

pttl

No, most people haven't forgotten why they purchased an Ack in the first place. They offered then, and still offer a strong value.

No Ack doesn't build junk. Never said they did. My 06 has been almost perfect. No rattles either! Ack, in their last generation of design attempts, especially the TL, have been cranking out ....but it's still not junk.

Have you ever considered that people and their tastes change? Maybe the lack of...I'll use your examples...DI and supercharging...do demonstrate that Ack is slightly outdated.

BUT as people have changed, Ack hasn't. Maybe the "hypocrites" have grown to want the driving dynamics of RWD instead of FWD. Maybe the "hypocrites" have grown to want the sound and torque of a V8. Maybe the "hypocrites" have grown to want a coupe. Yet Ack doesn't seem to want to provide these items to their former and soon to be former customers. Why is that hard to understand? It's like a married couple getting a divorce...the two parties have simply grown apart. The "hypocrites/haters" have found other cars that fit their new requirements.

The "hating" comes from disappointment more than anything else. I wish Ack would build something that interested me. I'd love to know the reliability that I've known for the past 10 years, but I guess that isn't going to happen unless they unveil a new model within the next year.

Legend2TL

Easy, because you confused some of these "facts" which are statements

SSFTSX

I dont think Turbo Charged TL Type S will cost $70k.
Case in point. RDX SH-AWD fully loaded is only $10K more expensive than CRV fully loaded.
with RDX you get SH-AWD, larger wheels, turbo charged engines and better interior, longer warranty for $10k.
incase of TL turbo charged 3.7 V6. it would at most raise the price by $3k to $4k. even with magnetic suspesion.
TL with 400bhp and 450 ft-lb for $50k fully loaded will be alot competitive.
Acura turbo charged engine has excellent characterist. RDX is pretty fast for the amount of bhp and 5speed auto tranmission. as good as 6speed auto Sonata 2.0T.

Acura need to create a performancae division. It wont be that expensive. just turbo charged versions of same vehicles.

pttl

A performance division would be a great idea. But, they would need to do more than just add turbo chargers to the same line up.

fsttyms1

You said i wouldnt. Fact is if Acura offered it many would, Just like M series owners, AMG owners, V series owners would. The market it STILL there. We arent asking for ALL to have it, just the option TO have it!.

fsttyms1

I didnt say RWD or SC wernt available, and i quote YOU

When i bought my 00 TL sure RWD was available. sc and DI really wasnt (like you asked) . What was avail wasnt much and nothing i would buy, where Acura made it very well worth it. I pretty much refuse to buy BMW (i have my reasons), many other models i dont fit in merc and audi of the times and even now). Plus 10 years ago i wasnt able to afford what i can now. No GM car could touch acura hen, Even SC, so no i wouldnt say they were giving up performance to them , and if they were 90s-2000's gm cars, couldnt touch interiors and options of Acura then. In order to get the best BMW M it was NA then not SC, so no that it was any large tech improvement over Acura . Now that i am much more fortunate i would like acura to give me the option. Just like many would like Acura just to have it just to be able to be in the same league as the others.

fsttyms1

For once i actually agree with you. A 50k TL with 400+ hp shawd is far greater deal than a 305 hp 49k shawd TL offered now.

csmeance

'

Honda needs to go back to it's root and create an S division or R division that goes GUNG-HO in respect to performance. Perfect example, the NSX-R.
The engineers went with a mesh shifter boot to save 11 grams!
Dry carbon fiber body parts to save weigh
Revised aerodynamics on MANY parts to reduce the CD by .02

But back to what you were saying, a Turbo TL-S isn't just going to be 3-4K off the back. If anything it's going to cost honda a WHOLE ton of money to fab up a system, engineer it and work out the kinks, test it for 500,000 miles to ensure that it sticks with honda quality. Engineering stuff like this isn't done in a few months, it takes a while to perfect and get right. Something like that in a consumer car would be more around the difference b/w a 335 and a 328 (41,100 vs. 33,650).

Also by the way, I doubt it'd be a 150HP increase for a consumer car, more along the lines of 100 and gobs of torque would be a better idea, so around 380ish HP is what I'd be.

Would I spend 50K on a new 380ish HP TL, maybe. A car isn't just about it's motor, its a culmination of things. The current interior on the TL really bothers me versus the design of the RL, MDX and TL that I've had over the years. The incorporation of all that plastic and styling idea doesn't still well with me. The ZDX is a step forward with a leather dash and ceramics, but the design is still pretty awkward.

If anything we would see MAYBE something like this on a 2014 TL but I highly doubt it since all auto makers are going to go in a "greener" direction with electric motors and all that jazz.

No offense to current owners, but I think that's (49K) a tad bit overpriced for a SH-AWD TL. Something along the lower 40's is a better idea OTD.

F23A4

Oh man!! Nothing stirs the pot here at Acurazine more than a discussion about the 4G TL. If nothing else, Acura definitely engineered a $44k conversation piece. But let's me civil here and focus on the facts, keeping our opinions in perspective.

That said, the controversy that surrounds the 4G TL is clearly about form and NOT function as Honda did NOT disappoint in crafting a more than capable sports sedan....particularly in SH-AWD 6MT guise.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an S or R lineup. I harken back to the 300hp 6G Accord Coupe which the engineers at American Honda developed back in 1999 and think of what Honda could have done since that time which could have resulted in a J-series pushing towards an NA 400hp.

As for all the 'should've , could've' talk, the economic environment has changed quite a bit in the past few years. So we probably should expect an increased level of caution when it comes to product development @ Honda.

Sidebar: Let's not denigrate other makes over what I believe are perceived quality differences between Honda and Nissan. Although I enjoyed my 07 AV6 EX-L and currently love my 09 MDX, I find neither to be of particularly superior quality over my son's 05 Altima or my old 05 Murano. Both generally make great cars that likely appeal to all of us here at some level.

fsttyms1

But thats the part that is frustrating to many. If Caddy, BMW, Merc, Lexus can all make a "limited" edition (AMG, V, M, etc) and continue to do so in these times, why cant Honda. Like said before, its not a model for every one that everyone has to buy, but at least make that model available for those that can. Put a separation between Acura and Honda. Give us (Honda yes, i still am one) fans a car/version to dream and lust for.

F23A4

Although it would be "neat", I don't think Acura really needs to establish a performance line. Particularly as they can't source a performance oriented powertrain from a corporate parts bin (i.e.: Caddy V w/Corvette powertrain) and the cost to develop an M/F/AMG lineup from scratch is likely prohibitive these days.

(Conversely, I DO fault Infiniti for NOT making an attempt at this with a VK56VD powered G sedan/coupe, seeing as both the M and G share platforms and the corporate parts bin thing is an option)

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I have never heard that Honda is the best engine builder. I have only heard that Honda is the ONE of the best engine builders. And then even if Honda IS the best, my question would be, what the "best" mean in this context? Is best = highest hp/L? Or does "best" include things like, most hp/L, most torque/L, best BMEP, best fuel economy, most reliable, least NVH, best sound, most compact, lightest, using the least amount of technologies to achieve the great result, easiest to maintain, easiest/cheapest to tune/modify...etc?

I have a feeling that in your opinion, best engine builder means squeezing the most amount of hp for a given engine size. If that's the case, I will stop my argument here, as we already had this discussion many times before (hp/L vs BMEP, etc). I don't want to get way too off topic here.

Generating more from less, as stated above, can also mean using the least amount of technologies to achieve good numbers (mpg, hp, torque, torque curve). I think the J series is very good at that.

Here is a fact, the G25 with its 2.5L V6 that makes 218hp is rated at 20/29mpg. That's the same as the 280hp TL.

Yes this is true, if you only care about hp.

I guess this is true also.

Actually, if you are only talking about NOW, then the J35 in the TSX and TL is lagging by 26hp (280hp vs 306hp). But the pre-mmc RL was making 290hp or 300hp under the old standards.

I don't agree with your "brick wall" argument. I can also say, Infiniti has hit a techno brick wall of making its VQ37 smooth. It's lagging behind the J series in terms of NVH.

I think Honda is more interested in the torque that can be gained by increasing displacement. The TL/RL are getting heavier, what they need is more torque to get moving.

I agree.

Yes this is true, as said above.

Hoping that engine series will dominate the industry and become the best in everything!

fsttyms1

Why not? They already have the Type-S why not make it something actually special? Right now Acura is too close to Honda. There really isnt much that separates them Offer something like that. (and the caddy motor doesnt really share much with the corvette as far as power train,The motors are quite different, trans are different.
With all the money spent on R&D for every thing they do, i dont think it would be hard or cost them to develop a more powerful motor (which id bet they already have just to see what they could do) to add a little spice to the lineup.

F23A4

I was actually referring to the LS2 and not necessarily the LSA. That said mine's was just an opinion sport.

Shift_Acura

I tried to give you a hint with the 335i

BMW's 3.0 Turbo I6 makes 100hp/litre and 100lb/ft of TQ per Litre.

Audi's new supercharged 3.0 V6 makes 333hp.

I'm no expert on Engine technology but you wrote these two brands off as "loosers" before doing your research. This is why I recommended you google search. The VQ is a powerful motor but its also outdated like the J-series, that is one of the reasons why it has not made the wards top ten list for the past 3 or 4 years.

Shift_Acura

Somehow I don't think some people would stop complaining even if an Acura developed a performance division.

Maybe its because I live in Canada, but I could care less if Acura or Infiniti or even Lexus form a performance division. (I know Lexus Already has one). Those cars will almost NEVER be stocked in showrooms (Infiniti doesnt even stock any RWD vehicles in their showrooms here. You cant even build a RWD G37 with AT on their website for example). They would only be bought by management who get discounts or people with too much money to blow.

I know there are some states that dont stock RWD vehicles just like Canada. So that leaves most of the US...and what other countries will Acura sell their performance division cars?

fsttyms1

Dont know why? People still drive them around here. There are a few Corvette (C6) owners around here that put snow tires on their cars and drive them year round. Our caddy dealer cant get the CTS-V in fast enough.

HBaJ

Why is everyone saying they wouldn't purchase a 70K Acura or an Acura performance-oriented vehicle? When there are people out there buying 65K Hyundai's these days is it really that far fetched?

Build it and they will come.

Edward'TLS

You have misunderstood.

Throughout my previous posts, I talked about engine technology between Honda's V6 and the industry's best V6. And as if I don't already know, you kindly reminded me that there were other makes of V6 which generated less hp than the Honda's bests. In here, the losers I referred to were the respective V6's that you had reminded me about, all having less hp than the Honda's.

------------------------------------
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, G37 sedan, 328hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp

2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, RL, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
------------------------------------

I had always used the above chart for my V6 comparisons. Please note that there are all naturally-aspirated (NA) 3.5L and 3.7L. I had deliberately left out the force-induced (FI) V6, because it is common knowledge that naturally-aspirated engines are no match for force-induced engines in terms of hp/litre.

I won't even dare to mix NA engines and FI engines in my comparisons, because not only for the J-series NA 3L-V6, even the highest output NA 3L-V6, will turn pale when trying to compare with any FI 3L-V6 out there on the market.

Next time, we can also talk about comparing the best force-induced engines.

I just wish Honda could also build force-induced V6 like Audi and BMW, because the tuning potential will be enormous, limited only by how well the engine will hold against excessive boosts and oversize wastegates.

I had always wish that Honda would breathe new life into the aging J-series, squeezing out more hp, by super-charging the 3.5L or even the 3.7L, in the MMC TL. Well ......

Edward'TLS

Agree, Acura does need something special, and a separate high performance division will do the job well, especially in boosting the much needed identity and maybe also class status within the auto market.

Take a close look at the S/RS, M, and AMG high perf. divisions from Audi, BMW, and MB. They offer nothing but cars and trucks with outrageous hp and roadholding capability. But these vehicles only account for a very small percentage of the total vehicle sales. Their existence is not to add sales volume. Their sole purpose is to build up the image, namely model image and brand image.

They give buyers the perception that the respective model line is high performance, and that the overall brand = expensive and high performance.

For instance, the M3 ultimately demonstrates what the 3-series model line is capable for, and give even the base 328i buyers a perception of owning a very capable machine. This is in fact, a very good marketing tool, in lifting the model image, and the overall brand image.

Brand image is what Acura has always been seriously lacking. The NSX supercar was an excellent image builder, but Honda just had to axe it. So a dedicated high performance Acura division is always a good idea.

Mizouse

what i want to know is what TL had a 286hp 3.5L engine back in 2005?

Mizouse

ohh and

Edward'TLS

[QUOTE=Mizouse;12710429]what i want to know is what TL had a 286hp 3.5L engine back in 2005? :scratch:[/QUOTE]

My mistake.

It should be

2007, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp

2007 3G TL Type-S which was actually the detuned RL's 3.5L-V6 engine.

Edward'TLS

As for Honda being the world's best engine builder, here are Honda's achievements related only to engine building :

- expertize in building engines for lawn mowers, power generators, marine outboards, ATV's, automobiles, motorbikes, and passenger jet plane.

- engine technology innovations such as CVCC, aluminum cylinder block and head, PGM-FI, VTEC, i-VTEC, moly-coated cylinders, single-cam-operated-on-4-valves, dual-runner intake, oval piston (motorbikes), etc.

- first auto maker to commercialize using hybrid tech (Insight) and hydrogen fuel cell tech (FCX).

- has been and still is class leading in output hp for it's 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated 4-cycle piston production auto engines :

1998, 1.8L, 195hp, Integra Type-R
2005, 2.0L, 210hp, RSX Type-R
(2011, 2.0L, 197hp, Civic SI)
2009, 2.4L, 201hp, TSX (just beat the Hyundai 2.4L GDI by 1hp)

Only the J-series V6 family is falling short to become class leader in output hp.

- won races and constructor championship titles in F1, CART/Indy, Le Mans, WCCA-WC, BTCC, MotoGP, SuperBike, and numerous other classes of touring sedan cups and motorbike cups all over the world.


Never has any single auto maker on earth has packed so much expertize in engine building, so diversify in engine applications, so innovative in engine technology, so dominant in output hp for it's I4 production engines, as well as participating in and winning so many different variety of motorsport races.

When packed with so much credential behind it's back, if Honda is not the best engine builder in the world, no auto maker is.