Acura: TLX News
02-10-2011, 03:52 PM
#6041
Of course you can't please everybody, but it appears the MMC changes improved the TL's desirability within at least Azine. The TSXesque grille on the TL should have been a no-brainer from the beginning.
So it begs the question: who the eff did Acura consult with for the 2009 model? What group would give their blessings to that grille?
So it begs the question: who the eff did Acura consult with for the 2009 model? What group would give their blessings to that grille?
I wonder if Acura fired that guy!
The original design was suppose to be a fusion of technology and and sensual emotion I think!
I was car shopping at the time and I remember seeing a video of him going on and on about that design philosophy.
But after seeing the then new 4G, I immediately went out and grabbed one of the last 3Gs on the lot!
If the 4G TL had started out looking like the MMC, my decision would have been much more difficult. Because while I still think the 3G still looks better than the 4G MMC, the SHAWD and the 4G's now good looking exterior probably would have persuaded me to buy it instead.
Last edited by frugalguy; 02-10-2011 at 03:56 PM.
02-10-2011, 03:56 PM
#6042
For 2011, both engines receive numerous improvements to reduce internal operating friction which help improve fuel economy and increase engine life. As a result, the friction reduction measures are a significant element to improve fuel economy as evidenced by improvements in the EPA city, highway and combined fuel economy for both the 2.4L I-4 and the 3.5L V-6 engines.
Improvement (versus 2010 model)
Sedan 2.4L I-4 (5AT) 22/31/26 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +1 combined
Sedan 2.4L I-4 (6MT) 21/29/24 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +1 combined
Sedan 3.5L V-6 (5AT) 19/28/23 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +2 combined
Improvement (versus 2010 model)
Sedan 2.4L I-4 (5AT) 22/31/26 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +1 combined
Sedan 2.4L I-4 (6MT) 21/29/24 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +1 combined
Sedan 3.5L V-6 (5AT) 19/28/23 mpg +1 city, +1 highway, +2 combined
02-10-2011, 05:14 PM
#6043
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
Received 834 Likes
on
518 Posts
TSX V6: 19/28
TL FWD: 20/29
Both weigh about the same, have same hp/torque. Seems like the extra gear is only good for less than 1mpg (the new torque converter is supposed to be more efficient so that alone should account for some gains too).
TL FWD: 20/29
Both weigh about the same, have same hp/torque. Seems like the extra gear is only good for less than 1mpg (the new torque converter is supposed to be more efficient so that alone should account for some gains too).
02-10-2011, 06:02 PM
#6045
6G TLX-S
Yes, they did. Depending on how you choose to slice and dice the model range.
2nd Gen ('99 - '03 MYs), the base had 225 HP. MMC introduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on the same engine with 260 HP. Decent bump.
3rd Gen ('04 - '08 MY's), the base had 258 HP. MMC indroduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on a slightly larger displacement with 286 HP. Decent bump.
.....
2nd Gen ('99 - '03 MYs), the base had 225 HP. MMC introduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on the same engine with 260 HP. Decent bump.
3rd Gen ('04 - '08 MY's), the base had 258 HP. MMC indroduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on a slightly larger displacement with 286 HP. Decent bump.
.....
Now there is no more to be squeezed out from the aging J-series engine family in the MMC TL. The aging J-series is at the end of life in terms of tuning for more performance out of it.
02-10-2011, 06:06 PM
#6046
6G TLX-S
200bhp is too low for car of this size. 3900lbs car with AWD and wide/tall wheels with 200bhp both fuel economy and engine life will suffer. there will be no merging and passing.
you can pretty much bet on that 6AT 4G TL is full 1 second faster than 5AT 3G TL. and 6MT TL is half a second faster than 6MT 3G Type S. there is clear performance gains without big increase in bhp. i highly doubt 3G can perform as good with 19inch
.....
you can pretty much bet on that 6AT 4G TL is full 1 second faster than 5AT 3G TL. and 6MT TL is half a second faster than 6MT 3G Type S. there is clear performance gains without big increase in bhp. i highly doubt 3G can perform as good with 19inch
.....
You said 200bhp is too low for car of this size. I said 305bhp is too low for car of this size. You see why the MMC TL needs more than 305bhp now.
02-10-2011, 06:17 PM
#6047
So that whole "our most powerful engine ever" thing was, what? An illusion? Figment of my imagination? There is no "horsepower war" in this segment?
Come on. Higher HP is nothing BUT marketing. One more time: Higher HP is NOT necessary, it's optional; just like big(er) brakes and sport(ier) suspensions.
So why do it? To sell cars. That's marketing, plain and simple.
Come on. Higher HP is nothing BUT marketing. One more time: Higher HP is NOT necessary, it's optional; just like big(er) brakes and sport(ier) suspensions.
So why do it? To sell cars. That's marketing, plain and simple.
Brakes durability, long life and performance has its advantages. you dont to want stop SH-AWD in 300feet.
even MDX which are more expensive than TL have only 300bhp not 305bhp.
02-10-2011, 06:18 PM
#6048
AZ Community Team
As for the 3.7L-V6, it was debuted with 300hp as on the RL sedan. Honda was still able to crank out another 5hp to become 305hp to be used solely on the SH-AWD TL. Now this was progress from the world's best engine builder - Honda.
Now there is no more to be squeezed out from the aging J-series engine family in the MMC TL. The aging J-series is at the end of life in terms of tuning for more performance out of it.
Now there is no more to be squeezed out from the aging J-series engine family in the MMC TL. The aging J-series is at the end of life in terms of tuning for more performance out of it.
02-10-2011, 06:21 PM
#6049
As for the 3.7L-V6, it was debuted with 300hp as on the RL sedan. Honda was still able to crank out another 5hp to become 305hp to be used solely on the SH-AWD TL. Now this was progress from the world's best engine builder - Honda.
Now there is no more to be squeezed out from the aging J-series engine family in the MMC TL. The aging J-series is at the end of life in terms of tuning for more performance out of it.
Now there is no more to be squeezed out from the aging J-series engine family in the MMC TL. The aging J-series is at the end of life in terms of tuning for more performance out of it.
02-10-2011, 06:31 PM
#6050
Honda Fanboy
Yes, they did. Depending on how you choose to slice and dice the model range.
2nd Gen ('99 - '03 MYs), the base had 225 HP. MMC introduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on the same engine with 260 HP. Decent bump.
3rd Gen ('04 - '08 MY's), the base had 258 HP. MMC indroduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on a slightly larger displacement with 286 HP. Decent bump.
I too am dissappointed that the MMC didn't follow the same introduction path for the higher performing vehicle. Your point that the higher performance version was released at introduction, along side the base model, instead of at MMC is a good one.
IF, instead, Acura had released the SH-AWD with 305 HP and a facelift, yesterday (as an upgrade over '09 - '11 base), I think people would be even more enthusiastic about the changes.
But let me ask you this: Do you believe that there is another 30 or so additional HP in the J-series (na)?
2nd Gen ('99 - '03 MYs), the base had 225 HP. MMC introduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on the same engine with 260 HP. Decent bump.
3rd Gen ('04 - '08 MY's), the base had 258 HP. MMC indroduced an upgrade vehicle (Type-S) on a slightly larger displacement with 286 HP. Decent bump.
I too am dissappointed that the MMC didn't follow the same introduction path for the higher performing vehicle. Your point that the higher performance version was released at introduction, along side the base model, instead of at MMC is a good one.
IF, instead, Acura had released the SH-AWD with 305 HP and a facelift, yesterday (as an upgrade over '09 - '11 base), I think people would be even more enthusiastic about the changes.
But let me ask you this: Do you believe that there is another 30 or so additional HP in the J-series (na)?
The 2nd gen base TL was never given a power bump. It remained at 225hp for the entire life cycle. The introduction of the TypeS was a completely new model, which never received a power bump during it's entire life cycle in the 2nd gen.
The 3rd gen base TL remained at the same hp for the entire generation. It did not receive any power improvement throughout its five years. The TypeS was introduced at the MMC and it retained the same amount of hp throughout the rest of the life cycle.
Like I said, the 4th gen was introduced with the base and TypeS equivalent models at the same time. If the 3.7 liter was introduced at the MMC, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
So what history of the TL shows is that once an engine was introduced, it was never given a power bump through its life cycle. I wouldn't consider the introduction of the TypeS as a power bump. The base model still had the same HP. That is like saying BMW gave the 328i a power bump with the introduction of the M3. They are both distinct models.
Do I think the J-series has another 30hp in it? Of course. Remember that purple-ish Accord Coupe from two generations ago that Honda had running around? If memory serves me correct, it had an NA 3.0 pushing 300hp. If they can push 300 out of the 3.0, I don't see them having any issues pushing out an additional 30hp with .7 liters of more room to work with.
02-10-2011, 06:37 PM
#6051
6G TLX-S
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Not bad for the old J series!
Originally Posted by iforyou
I think it's common knowledge that the J series is old and outdated in terms of technologies used. But hey, you gotta admit that Honda/Acura is doing a good job at keeping it competitive, especially in terms of fuel economy. Just look at the numbers I posted before, 20/29mpg isn't bad at all.
Originally Posted by Bearcat94
I agree. They've probably maxed out the J-series V-6. Or close enough to max that it doesn't matter.
The main point I was trying to say was that the Honda J-series was at the end of development life when tuning for more hp.
Fuel economy is nice. But power output is equally important. If everyone look closer, the gain in fuel economy is likely not from the V6 engines, it is more on the new 6-speed multi-clutch auto tranny which has one extra top gear and obviously completely different gear ratios than the old 5-speed auto box.
With Honda's reputation and expertize in engine building, there is no question that it is able to tune out engines with big hp and good fuel economy, especially in this auto segment in which competition is fierce.
But when the time come there is nothing more (hp) to be squeezed out from the 3.5L and the 3.7L while still balancing good fuel economy, it is obvious that Honda has hit the technological brick wall in tuning the aging J-series for more (hp) performance. The aging J-series is at the dying end of the development cycle. This is my point.
So everybody wish that the new Honda J-series replacement engines are to be released ASAP to continue the quest for more hp.
Last edited by Edward'TLS; 02-10-2011 at 06:45 PM.
02-10-2011, 06:41 PM
#6052
AZ Community Team
Join Date: May 2007
Location: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Posts: 32,488
Received 7,770 Likes
on
4,341 Posts
As such, I count those as HP bumps for that model cycle.
The difference is that the 4G Advance is the first MMC new trim level to NOT get an HP bump in 3 generations.
We see the same thing, but from opposite ends (if that makes sense) and draw different conclusions.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 02-10-2011 at 06:43 PM.
02-10-2011, 09:43 PM
#6053
I don't see the 2G and 3G TL-S as "new models", but as just another trim level over base - like the 4G "Advance" or "Tech" packages.
As such, I count those as HP bumps for that model cycle.
The difference is that the 4G Advance is the first MMC new trim level to NOT get an HP bump in 3 generations.
We see the same thing, but from opposite ends (if that makes sense) and draw different conclusions.
As such, I count those as HP bumps for that model cycle.
The difference is that the 4G Advance is the first MMC new trim level to NOT get an HP bump in 3 generations.
We see the same thing, but from opposite ends (if that makes sense) and draw different conclusions.
4G TL is the first MMC in TL history that Extra Ordinary effort was made in improving refinement. This things you have to only feel it. not observe it. It is geneuinly different car. not artifical boost to bhp.
and Acura clearly said they improved aerodyanmics. This will alone contribute more high speed performance above 70mph than any bhp increase.
02-10-2011, 10:32 PM
#6054
AZ Community Team
Join Date: May 2007
Location: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Posts: 32,488
Received 7,770 Likes
on
4,341 Posts
)
02-10-2011, 11:05 PM
#6055
02-11-2011, 12:40 AM
#6057
6G TLX-S
02-11-2011, 02:05 AM
#6058
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
Received 834 Likes
on
518 Posts
Sorry I got sidetracked. It's just that it was SSFTSX again, and I couldn't resist but to reply to his posts.
The main point I was trying to say was that the Honda J-series was at the end of development life when tuning for more hp.
Fuel economy is nice. But power output is equally important. If everyone look closer, the gain in fuel economy is likely not from the V6 engines, it is more on the new 6-speed multi-clutch auto tranny which has one extra top gear and obviously completely different gear ratios than the old 5-speed auto box.
With Honda's reputation and expertize in engine building, there is no question that it is able to tune out engines with big hp and good fuel economy, especially in this auto segment in which competition is fierce.
But when the time come there is nothing more (hp) to be squeezed out from the 3.5L and the 3.7L while still balancing good fuel economy, it is obvious that Honda has hit the technological brick wall in tuning the aging J-series for more (hp) performance. The aging J-series is at the dying end of the development cycle. This is my point.
So everybody wish that the new Honda J-series replacement engines are to be released ASAP to continue the quest for more hp.
The main point I was trying to say was that the Honda J-series was at the end of development life when tuning for more hp.
Fuel economy is nice. But power output is equally important. If everyone look closer, the gain in fuel economy is likely not from the V6 engines, it is more on the new 6-speed multi-clutch auto tranny which has one extra top gear and obviously completely different gear ratios than the old 5-speed auto box.
With Honda's reputation and expertize in engine building, there is no question that it is able to tune out engines with big hp and good fuel economy, especially in this auto segment in which competition is fierce.
But when the time come there is nothing more (hp) to be squeezed out from the 3.5L and the 3.7L while still balancing good fuel economy, it is obvious that Honda has hit the technological brick wall in tuning the aging J-series for more (hp) performance. The aging J-series is at the dying end of the development cycle. This is my point.
So everybody wish that the new Honda J-series replacement engines are to be released ASAP to continue the quest for more hp.
1.) One extra gear ratio
2.) Redesigned torque converter
3.) Friction-reduction technologies
4.) Revised air inlet system
In the K series in the Accord, friction reduction technologies, revised gear ratios, and aero tweaks result in 3 extra mpg. I have a feeling that in the TL case, most of the gain is from the new torque converter and the reduced friction. The extra gear is probably good for 1mpg (this is the case for the MDX).
02-11-2011, 05:55 PM
#6060
Honda Fanboy
I don't see the 2G and 3G TL-S as "new models", but as just another trim level over base - like the 4G "Advance" or "Tech" packages.
As such, I count those as HP bumps for that model cycle.
The difference is that the 4G Advance is the first MMC new trim level to NOT get an HP bump in 3 generations.
We see the same thing, but from opposite ends (if that makes sense) and draw different conclusions.
As such, I count those as HP bumps for that model cycle.
The difference is that the 4G Advance is the first MMC new trim level to NOT get an HP bump in 3 generations.
We see the same thing, but from opposite ends (if that makes sense) and draw different conclusions.
If Acura had released the 3.7 lliter engine during the MMC (just like they always released the upgraded engines in the past), this conversation wouldn't be happening.
Just to conclude that the J series is at the end because the TL didn't get a bump in hp at the mmc when historically it never has either, is a bit much. The fact that sensationalist claims like this are coming from Edward is no surprise though.
02-11-2011, 08:44 PM
#6061
6G TLX-S
The Honda J-series V6 family has been lagging behind in hp for many years.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Note the whopping 43hp deficit for the Acura 3.7L-V6 vs. the Infinit's 3.7L in the year 2010.
If today's Honda could just match (not even to exceed) what the competitors had achieved 6 years ago, and apply a 298hp J-series 3.5L-V6 or a 330hp J-series 3.7L-V6 in it's production vehicles, why wouldn't Honda ? Plain and simple. It's just can't. The J-series is at the dying leg of the hp development cycle.
Especially that Honda has paid lots of attention in terms of output hp for it's bread and butter cars. Back in 2002, the J-series 3L-V6 from the Honda Accord had 200hp. It was industry standard then that almost all makes of the top-of-the-line 3L-V6 all had ~200hp. Then suddenly the Nissan Altima was debuted with a 240hp 3.5L-V6. Honda immediately squeezed 40 more hp from it's J-series 3L to match the Altima V6.
On the outside, it was like magic. But underneath, it was all hard work by Honda R&D, and especially that the J-series V6 then was still fresh at it's development life cycle, and still had lots and lots of hp tuning potential. But that was in 2002, and the J-series family is now 8 years older into the development cycle.
However, in 2008, Honda finally had to give up on tuning the 3L-V6 for more power, and resorted to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp to give the Accord more hp by using the larger 3.5L-V6.
This was the turning point for the J-series V6 family development cycle. Since then, any further significant increase in hp was done by adding engine displacement, rather than by further tuning the existing-displacement engines.
The Accord is the bread and butter for Honda, and the TL is the bread and butter for Acura.
But the TL has been lagging behind in output hp for years. Nevertheless, Honda is still able to keep up with the Accord, but not with the TL, because the TL resides in the fiercely competitive luxury segment in which engine technology is pushed to the limits and auto technology is at the forefront. This is where the J-series is showing it's age. Do you really think that Honda doesn't want to match it's competitors' output ? It's because Honda can't, the J-series is falling short. The J-series is on the last leg of hp development cycle.
And this is exactly the reason why Honda has been working hard on a new range of V6 to replace the aging J-series. If the J-series is still capable, why would Honda want to develop a new V6 engine family. Do you think that Honda does it for fun, or has lots of money to throw away.
There is nothing sensational about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, whose J-series V6 is unable to match the competitors' engine output for many years. The only sensational thing is that there is still someone like (name withheld for courtesy reason) who refuses to climb out of his nutshell by refusing to accept that the Honda J-series is on it's dying end of hp development cycle and, as a result, has been lagging in output hp for years.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Note the whopping 43hp deficit for the Acura 3.7L-V6 vs. the Infinit's 3.7L in the year 2010.
If today's Honda could just match (not even to exceed) what the competitors had achieved 6 years ago, and apply a 298hp J-series 3.5L-V6 or a 330hp J-series 3.7L-V6 in it's production vehicles, why wouldn't Honda ? Plain and simple. It's just can't. The J-series is at the dying leg of the hp development cycle.
Especially that Honda has paid lots of attention in terms of output hp for it's bread and butter cars. Back in 2002, the J-series 3L-V6 from the Honda Accord had 200hp. It was industry standard then that almost all makes of the top-of-the-line 3L-V6 all had ~200hp. Then suddenly the Nissan Altima was debuted with a 240hp 3.5L-V6. Honda immediately squeezed 40 more hp from it's J-series 3L to match the Altima V6.
On the outside, it was like magic. But underneath, it was all hard work by Honda R&D, and especially that the J-series V6 then was still fresh at it's development life cycle, and still had lots and lots of hp tuning potential. But that was in 2002, and the J-series family is now 8 years older into the development cycle.
However, in 2008, Honda finally had to give up on tuning the 3L-V6 for more power, and resorted to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp to give the Accord more hp by using the larger 3.5L-V6.
This was the turning point for the J-series V6 family development cycle. Since then, any further significant increase in hp was done by adding engine displacement, rather than by further tuning the existing-displacement engines.
The Accord is the bread and butter for Honda, and the TL is the bread and butter for Acura.
But the TL has been lagging behind in output hp for years. Nevertheless, Honda is still able to keep up with the Accord, but not with the TL, because the TL resides in the fiercely competitive luxury segment in which engine technology is pushed to the limits and auto technology is at the forefront. This is where the J-series is showing it's age. Do you really think that Honda doesn't want to match it's competitors' output ? It's because Honda can't, the J-series is falling short. The J-series is on the last leg of hp development cycle.
And this is exactly the reason why Honda has been working hard on a new range of V6 to replace the aging J-series. If the J-series is still capable, why would Honda want to develop a new V6 engine family. Do you think that Honda does it for fun, or has lots of money to throw away.
There is nothing sensational about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, whose J-series V6 is unable to match the competitors' engine output for many years. The only sensational thing is that there is still someone like (name withheld for courtesy reason) who refuses to climb out of his nutshell by refusing to accept that the Honda J-series is on it's dying end of hp development cycle and, as a result, has been lagging in output hp for years.
02-11-2011, 09:01 PM
#6062
Burning Brakes
I'm sure if Honda wanted to, they could roll out a powerful new V6 in the near future. But right now they seem more focused on their economy brand, as well as their other endeavours (Honda Jet).
At least the new NSX has been brought back to life - or so they say.
At least the new NSX has been brought back to life - or so they say.
02-11-2011, 11:48 PM
#6063
AZ Community Team
Join Date: May 2007
Location: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Posts: 32,488
Received 7,770 Likes
on
4,341 Posts
Good point. The way BMW (and others) organizes their model range illustrates your point well.
Acura doesn't differentiate (to me anyhow) their model range in quite the same way. They roll out a "TL" and offer it in a limited range of fixed option/trim packages. This is how it is presented - as fixe package trim levels - even on their own web site. For example:
- Base w/Tech
- SH-AWD w/Tech
- SH-AWD w/Tech & 18" Wheels
I could try to argue that BMW does the same thing, but it's a harder argument to make, mostly because of all the misc add-on options and packages you can add. The CTS, however, is quite simiar to Acura with an ascending range of fairly discrete option/trim levels to a single (CTS) model.
Yup. That's what I'm sayin'. 
Acura doesn't differentiate (to me anyhow) their model range in quite the same way. They roll out a "TL" and offer it in a limited range of fixed option/trim packages. This is how it is presented - as fixe package trim levels - even on their own web site. For example:
- Base w/Tech
- SH-AWD w/Tech
- SH-AWD w/Tech & 18" Wheels
I could try to argue that BMW does the same thing, but it's a harder argument to make, mostly because of all the misc add-on options and packages you can add. The CTS, however, is quite simiar to Acura with an ascending range of fairly discrete option/trim levels to a single (CTS) model.
Yup. That's what I'm sayin'.
02-12-2011, 01:37 AM
#6064
Honda Fanboy
The Honda J-series V6 family has been lagging behind in hp for many years.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Note the whopping 43hp deficit for the Acura 3.7L-V6 vs. the Infinit's 3.7L in the year 2010.
If today's Honda could just match (not even to exceed) what the competitors had achieved 6 years ago, and apply a 298hp J-series 3.5L-V6 or a 330hp J-series 3.7L-V6 in it's production vehicles, why wouldn't Honda ? Plain and simple. It's just can't. The J-series is at the dying leg of the hp development cycle.
Especially that Honda has paid lots of attention in terms of output hp for it's bread and butter cars. Back in 2002, the J-series 3L-V6 from the Honda Accord had 200hp. It was industry standard then that almost all makes of the top-of-the-line 3L-V6 all had ~200hp. Then suddenly the Nissan Altima was debuted with a 240hp 3.5L-V6. Honda immediately squeezed 40 more hp from it's J-series 3L to match the Altima V6.
On the outside, it was like magic. But underneath, it was all hard work by Honda R&D, and especially that the J-series V6 then was still fresh at it's development life cycle, and still had lots and lots of hp tuning potential. But that was in 2002, and the J-series family is now 8 years older into the development cycle.
However, in 2008, Honda finally had to give up on tuning the 3L-V6 for more power, and resorted to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp to give the Accord more hp by using the larger 3.5L-V6.
This was the turning point for the J-series V6 family development cycle. Since then, any further significant increase in hp was done by adding engine displacement, rather than by further tuning the existing-displacement engines.
The Accord is the bread and butter for Honda, and the TL is the bread and butter for Acura.
But the TL has been lagging behind in output hp for years. Nevertheless, Honda is still able to keep up with the Accord, but not with the TL, because the TL resides in the fiercely competitive luxury segment in which engine technology is pushed to the limits and auto technology is at the forefront. This is where the J-series is showing it's age. Do you really think that Honda doesn't want to match it's competitors' output ? It's because Honda can't, the J-series is falling short. The J-series is on the last leg of hp development cycle.
And this is exactly the reason why Honda has been working hard on a new range of V6 to replace the aging J-series. If the J-series is still capable, why would Honda want to develop a new V6 engine family. Do you think that Honda does it for fun, or has lots of money to throw away.
There is nothing sensational about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, whose J-series V6 is unable to match the competitors' engine output for many years. The only sensational thing is that there is still someone like (name withheld for courtesy reason) who refuses to climb out of his nutshell by refusing to accept that the Honda J-series is on it's dying end of hp development cycle and, as a result, has been lagging in output hp for years.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Note the whopping 43hp deficit for the Acura 3.7L-V6 vs. the Infinit's 3.7L in the year 2010.
If today's Honda could just match (not even to exceed) what the competitors had achieved 6 years ago, and apply a 298hp J-series 3.5L-V6 or a 330hp J-series 3.7L-V6 in it's production vehicles, why wouldn't Honda ? Plain and simple. It's just can't. The J-series is at the dying leg of the hp development cycle.
Especially that Honda has paid lots of attention in terms of output hp for it's bread and butter cars. Back in 2002, the J-series 3L-V6 from the Honda Accord had 200hp. It was industry standard then that almost all makes of the top-of-the-line 3L-V6 all had ~200hp. Then suddenly the Nissan Altima was debuted with a 240hp 3.5L-V6. Honda immediately squeezed 40 more hp from it's J-series 3L to match the Altima V6.
On the outside, it was like magic. But underneath, it was all hard work by Honda R&D, and especially that the J-series V6 then was still fresh at it's development life cycle, and still had lots and lots of hp tuning potential. But that was in 2002, and the J-series family is now 8 years older into the development cycle.
However, in 2008, Honda finally had to give up on tuning the 3L-V6 for more power, and resorted to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp to give the Accord more hp by using the larger 3.5L-V6.
This was the turning point for the J-series V6 family development cycle. Since then, any further significant increase in hp was done by adding engine displacement, rather than by further tuning the existing-displacement engines.
The Accord is the bread and butter for Honda, and the TL is the bread and butter for Acura.
But the TL has been lagging behind in output hp for years. Nevertheless, Honda is still able to keep up with the Accord, but not with the TL, because the TL resides in the fiercely competitive luxury segment in which engine technology is pushed to the limits and auto technology is at the forefront. This is where the J-series is showing it's age. Do you really think that Honda doesn't want to match it's competitors' output ? It's because Honda can't, the J-series is falling short. The J-series is on the last leg of hp development cycle.
And this is exactly the reason why Honda has been working hard on a new range of V6 to replace the aging J-series. If the J-series is still capable, why would Honda want to develop a new V6 engine family. Do you think that Honda does it for fun, or has lots of money to throw away.
There is nothing sensational about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, whose J-series V6 is unable to match the competitors' engine output for many years. The only sensational thing is that there is still someone like (name withheld for courtesy reason) who refuses to climb out of his nutshell by refusing to accept that the Honda J-series is on it's dying end of hp development cycle and, as a result, has been lagging in output hp for years.
Note the whopping 43 hp deficit of the TL compared to the IPL G37? How about note the following deficits:
MB C350: -80 hp
BMW 335: -48 hp
Audi S4 (SUPERCHARGED V6): -15 hp
Lexus ES350: -80 hp
Lexus IS30: -42 hp
Cadillac CTS 3.6: -44 hp
These guys must have ALL hit a technological brick wall since they've allowed Infiniti to remain ahead in the hp wars right? Get real. Honda could easily tune the J-series to surpass the older Infiniti VQ. The difference between Honda and Nissan is that Honda doesn't want their V6 engines sounding like a dying goat being dragged by the hind legs with the refinement of an elephant doing a tight-rope walk. There is a reason why Honda V6's are known for their smoothness and refinement.
So in 2008 Honda gave up because they put a 3.5 in the Accord? Nevermind the fact that the Altima had it since 2004 and the Camry in 2006. God forbid Honda actually want to match the competition. It's okay that the Altima had a 3.5 in 2004 but when Honda finally put one in, it was because they "gave up". Good luck trying to push this one. I'm sorry Honda didn't put in an S2000-like naturally aspirated 120hp per liter engine in the Accord for you. I forgot how much the average consumer loves having to rev their commuter family sedan to 6,000 rpm just to get into the powerband.
So somehow the "turning point" of the J-series, according to you, was when Honda came out with the 3.5 because they couldn't tune the engine anymore and had to resort to increasing the displacement. Was it also a turning point for Nissan when they went from the 3.0 to 3.5 to now 3.7 V6? Was it a turning point for Toyota when they went from the 3.0 to the 3.3 to the 3.5? Was it a turning point for Audi when they went from the 1.8 to the 2.0? Was it a turning point for Mercedes when they went from the 2.8 to the 3.0 to the 3.2 to the 3.5? Was it a turning point for BMW when they went from the 2.3 to the 2.5 to the 2.8 to the 3.0? Let me know when to stop...
Yes, you're right. The TL has been lagging in HP for years. I'm so sorry that it only has the 3rd most powerful engine (which is dying apparently) in it's class, with the 2nd place car IS350 having only ONE more horsepower. I'm so sorry that the TL now gets the best fuel economy in it's class despite having the least technologically advanced engine that is once again, dying. I'm so sorry that it has what has been called one of the most refined and smooth V6's on the market.
Honda is working on a new V6 family because they have a name and reputation to uphold. The j-series is now over 15 years old. If Honda didn't care about the smoothness and refinement of its engines, then they could have gone the Infiniti route and stuffed an unrefined and course V6 into their luxury cars just for the sake of having the most hp. The average consumer doesn't seem to really care about how much HP the Infiniti has because it is no where near the top of its class in sales. I find it so ironic that here you are right now boasting about how deficient the TL is and how much hp you demand from it, yet you drive a car with an asphalt-ripping 255hp 3.2 V6.
What is sensational to me is the fact that a 15+ year old engine from Honda with the least amount of technology (compared to its competitors) is capable of having the best fuel economy of any car in it's class despite also being one of the most powerful and heaviest car in its class. Once again you've shown your sensationalism to be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
The following users liked this post:
cairo333 (09-02-2019)
02-12-2011, 03:39 AM
#6066
6G TLX-S
True, the TL is not a competitor with the G37C. But this comparison is for engine wise. 3.5L-V6 vs 3.5L-V6, and 3.7L-V6 vs. 3.7L-V6. This talk is to do with engines, not cars. It's about what the Acura 3.5L and 3.7L V6's are capable of --> which is lagging behind in hp against those from Lexus' and Infiniti's bests.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
02-12-2011, 04:10 AM
#6067
6G TLX-S
.....
What is sensational to me is the fact that a 15+ year old engine from Honda with the least amount of technology (compared to its competitors) is capable of having the best fuel economy of any car in it's class despite also being one of the most powerful and heaviest car in its class. Once again you've shown your sensationalism to be nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
the least amount of technology,
the best fuel economy,
most powerful and heaviest car.
Well done Honda, applause, applause, applause, .....
But this still doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series family is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests (of the same engine displacement).
Why is the J-series lagging in hp ? Because the J-series is on the dying leg of hp development life cycle, and nothing more can be tuned out of it, except by resorting to adding engine displacement.
I agree that Honda has done a great job tuning the 15+ years old J-series family, so it is not a big sin when the J-series is lagging behind in hp and is at the dying end of the hp development cycle. It is forgivable.
This is exactly my point. No car comparisons, no fuss.
The Honda J-series is at the dying end of the hp development cycle, and thus it is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests, displacement-wise.
That's exactly why the upcoming new Honda V6 engines to the rescue.
02-12-2011, 06:53 AM
#6068
Pro
^^^I don't want to intervene in this argument but I see your point. VTEC racer have good points though. The problem with the IPL example is that it is the same 3.7 liter engine as the standard G37 plus a freer flowing exhaust and a tune. I could have done the same.
Actually, my J37 Honda engine produce 315-320 hp and around 290 tq thanks to a J-pipe. Is my engine better than the VQ37? I doubt it.
We all know that Honda has a new V6 engine family that is close to be ready, probably with DI and much more efficient technologies. Then, they will be able to regain "the Mantle of greatest engine builders of all Earth and Japan".
The way I see it and you have the right to disagree is that Honda has a nice edge right now. They can compete with the newer engines even with 15 yo tech. We can all bitch and moan about the lack of tech but in the end, the J37 is a smooth reving gem that delivers the goods with great fuel economy (for a 3800+ lbs sedan with a 6AT).
Anyway, the new engine will likely be found in the 2012-2013 RL (I'm speculating) so we will all be able to rejoice by then.
And this was not a lecture, I would have liked a factory J37 engine with 330 hp and 290-300 TQ but it seems it was not in the cards for us, Acura customers, at least not for now.
Actually, my J37 Honda engine produce 315-320 hp and around 290 tq thanks to a J-pipe. Is my engine better than the VQ37? I doubt it.
We all know that Honda has a new V6 engine family that is close to be ready, probably with DI and much more efficient technologies. Then, they will be able to regain "the Mantle of greatest engine builders of all Earth and Japan".
The way I see it and you have the right to disagree is that Honda has a nice edge right now. They can compete with the newer engines even with 15 yo tech. We can all bitch and moan about the lack of tech but in the end, the J37 is a smooth reving gem that delivers the goods with great fuel economy (for a 3800+ lbs sedan with a 6AT).
Anyway, the new engine will likely be found in the 2012-2013 RL (I'm speculating) so we will all be able to rejoice by then.
And this was not a lecture, I would have liked a factory J37 engine with 330 hp and 290-300 TQ but it seems it was not in the cards for us, Acura customers, at least not for now.
02-12-2011, 06:58 AM
#6069
Pro
Afterwards, we talked a lot about the RSX and Integra and how it brought business in the mecanic shop for...repairs...
My shop if very quiet right now while they were 5 acura mecanics in the early 2000, they are now 2-3 mecanics as the repairs are few and far between...
02-12-2011, 08:20 AM
#6070
AZ Community Team
1) You made some good points but Honda/Acura choose efficiency for this round of J series improvements. Since, you, I and I'd bet the vast majority on this website do not have access to Honda's technical data so I don't think anyone can state as a fact the J series is at the end of it's power potential.
2) I'm not thrilled with displacement increases but this has been a long and tried true method. Look at Porsche with the 911, they kept increasing displacement on the flat six from 2L all the way up to 3.8L over a 35 year period. That's a long time for a engine design life and there were many improvements.
3) One area you neglect to mention is the fact that the J is a SOHC and it's competition are all DOHC. The DOHC allows more flexibility in variable valve timing.
4) Although DI and forced induction are not rare, they are hardly widely used in industry. I don't have a link, but I'd bet the vast majority of vehicles and engines in them out there are normally aspirated port injection. For certain applications FI can provide improvement in fuel economy (ie diesel engines for buses and trucks) it still not consistent in fuel economy improvements in others (wide RPM range gasoline car motors).
5) I would agree at one time the J was far ahead of the competiton but most have caught up in terms of power. What I find amusing is Honda can still beat them at overall fuel economy. Again I don;t have any concise info but judging from the EPA numbers Honda probably chose fuel economy.
2) I'm not thrilled with displacement increases but this has been a long and tried true method. Look at Porsche with the 911, they kept increasing displacement on the flat six from 2L all the way up to 3.8L over a 35 year period. That's a long time for a engine design life and there were many improvements.
3) One area you neglect to mention is the fact that the J is a SOHC and it's competition are all DOHC. The DOHC allows more flexibility in variable valve timing.
4) Although DI and forced induction are not rare, they are hardly widely used in industry. I don't have a link, but I'd bet the vast majority of vehicles and engines in them out there are normally aspirated port injection. For certain applications FI can provide improvement in fuel economy (ie diesel engines for buses and trucks) it still not consistent in fuel economy improvements in others (wide RPM range gasoline car motors).
5) I would agree at one time the J was far ahead of the competiton but most have caught up in terms of power. What I find amusing is Honda can still beat them at overall fuel economy. Again I don;t have any concise info but judging from the EPA numbers Honda probably chose fuel economy.
True, the TL is not a competitor with the G37C. But this comparison is for engine wise. 3.5L-V6 vs 3.5L-V6, and 3.7L-V6 vs. 3.7L-V6. This talk is to do with engines, not cars. It's about what the Acura 3.5L and 3.7L V6's are capable of --> which is lagging behind in hp against those from Lexus' and Infiniti's bests.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
02-12-2011, 11:00 AM
#6071
Honda Fanboy
True, the TL is not a competitor with the G37C. But this comparison is for engine wise. 3.5L-V6 vs 3.5L-V6, and 3.7L-V6 vs. 3.7L-V6. This talk is to do with engines, not cars. It's about what the Acura 3.5L and 3.7L V6's are capable of --> which is lagging behind in hp against those from Lexus' and Infiniti's bests.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
A 15+ year old Honda engine,
the least amount of technology,
the best fuel economy,
most powerful and heaviest car.
Well done Honda, applause, applause, applause, .....
But this still doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series family is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests (of the same engine displacement).
Why is the J-series lagging in hp ? Because the J-series is on the dying leg of hp development life cycle, and nothing more can be tuned out of it, except by resorting to adding engine displacement.
I agree that Honda has done a great job tuning the 15+ years old J-series family, so it is not a big sin when the J-series is lagging behind in hp and is at the dying end of the hp development cycle. It is forgivable.
This is exactly my point. No car comparisons, no fuss.
The Honda J-series is at the dying end of the hp development cycle, and thus it is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests, displacement-wise.
That's exactly why the upcoming new Honda V6 engines to the rescue.
I don't care less if those V6's from BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac are all behind Infiniti and perhaps Honda/Acura. Because the auto industry never considers BMW, MB, Audi, and Cadillac to be the world's best engine builder. But Honda is. This is what Honda has been famous for, especially with it's family of I4 engines which pack with the highest hp/liter figure as well as excellent fuel economy.
During Honda's glorious years, it had again and again defined the engine benchmarks that all other auto makers were desperately going after.
No other auto maker on earth has deemed so famous and so skillful in building benchmark engines, from lawn mowers all the way to private jets. So why should the Honda J-series V6 being compared with those losers. Honda is the one who should set the benchmarks.
It doesn't matter in this context that all these losers have or haven't hit the technology brick wall. Because it hasn't change a single bit that the Honda J-series is at the dying end of hp development life cycle, and is lagging behind in V6 hp output when compared with the industry's best or industry's benchmark.
This is about Honda, being the world's best engine builder, comparing with the industry's best V6. It is against these industry's best V6 that the Honda V6's are lagging behind in output hp. Now, Honda, in reverse, is chasing after the industry benchmarks, rather than setting them as it has always been doing.
Turning point is about Honda, being unable to crank out more hp, has to resort to add engine displacement in order to match the competitors' output hp.
Competitors:
2005, 3.5L-V6, IS350, 306hp
2005, 3.5L-V6, G35, 298hp
2008, 3.7L-V6, G37C, 330hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, IPL-G37C, 348hp
Acura:
2005, 3.5L-V6, TL, 286hp
2007, 3.7L-V6, MDX, 300hp
2009, 3.7L-V6, TL, 305hp
2010, 3.7L-V6, MMC TL, 305hp
Turning point is that rather than using the J-series 3.5L-V6 to tune out 300hp (like the competitors), Honda has resorted to boosting the displacement to 3.7L in order to match competitor's 3.5L output which was achieved 5 years before. Remember that Honda is the best engine builder in the world, not the others.
So if turning point also applies to Toyota, Nissan, etc. Ok, so be it. It may perhaps lead to the fact that every auto maker has it's turning point for tuning engine output hp. Nothing more.
But it still doesn't change the fact that the world's best engine builder - Honda, has to resort to the primitive way of displacement-for-hp simply because it's J-series is on the last leg and is lagging behind in output hp when compared with the industry's best V6's.
In addition, it also doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series is lagging behind in hp in every turn against the industry's best. Lagging in the J-series "3.5L's best" turn against the Lexus' best and the Infiniti's best, and lagging in the J-series "3.7L's best" turn against the Infiniti's best.
Honda could perhaps make a breakthrough with it's J-series. But it's "about face" and "never follows" standpoint has refuses to embrace DI and force-induction technologies which are proven and widely used by the auto industry.
When I bought the 2G TL-S, it had the best in class output hp. There was no deficiency. Nowadays, Acura cars are still almost perfect, except that the engine output is on the weak side against the industry's benchmarks. I'm a die hard Honda/Acura fan, and is planning to buy another TL or RL very soon. I don't hold any grudge against Acura even though my TL comes with the shitty tranny. Because everyone makes mistakes.
But I must point out the Honda's J-series engine deficiencies when compared with the industry's best, because I will still be with Acura for a long, long while. I can't just pretend that these engine deficiencies don't exist by comparing them instead with the losers, like someone does. Honda is the best engine builder in the world and is the one who should set the benchmarks.
I want all Acura cars to be powerful and popular. I want the Acura brand to go upscale and become famous.
So I have every right to shout to Honda to let them know that their J-series is on the dying end and that they must debut the new V6 family ASAP. I bet there must be lots of buyers out there who would want to buy a 330hp TL, or a 380hp RL sedan.
A 15+ year old Honda engine,
the least amount of technology,
the best fuel economy,
most powerful and heaviest car.
Well done Honda, applause, applause, applause, .....
But this still doesn't change the fact that the Honda J-series family is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests (of the same engine displacement).
Why is the J-series lagging in hp ? Because the J-series is on the dying leg of hp development life cycle, and nothing more can be tuned out of it, except by resorting to adding engine displacement.
I agree that Honda has done a great job tuning the 15+ years old J-series family, so it is not a big sin when the J-series is lagging behind in hp and is at the dying end of the hp development cycle. It is forgivable.
This is exactly my point. No car comparisons, no fuss.
The Honda J-series is at the dying end of the hp development cycle, and thus it is lagging behind in hp when compared with the industry's bests, displacement-wise.
That's exactly why the upcoming new Honda V6 engines to the rescue.
Is this one of those things that if you repeat it enough times, it will eventually come true?
You've basically repeated the same thing over and over again without giving me a single intelligent rebuttal to ANYTHING that I posted in my previous point. I'd be more than happy to continue this debate with you, but you have to give me something to respond to; not the garbage above.
02-12-2011, 11:56 AM
#6073
Burning Brakes
Edward, you brought nothing to the table. Do you see yourself here? ^^^^
Is this one of those things that if you repeat it enough times, it will eventually come true?
You've basically repeated the same thing over and over again without giving me a single intelligent rebuttal to ANYTHING that I posted in my previous point. I'd be more than happy to continue this debate with you, but you have to give me something to respond to; not the garbage above.
Is this one of those things that if you repeat it enough times, it will eventually come true?
You've basically repeated the same thing over and over again without giving me a single intelligent rebuttal to ANYTHING that I posted in my previous point. I'd be more than happy to continue this debate with you, but you have to give me something to respond to; not the garbage above.
This guys like a broken record
02-12-2011, 12:31 PM
#6074
Suzuka Master
I swear some of these threads in the automotive section are so hard to keep up with.
Dunno what you guys are talking about.
But I like what they did for the MMC. Obviously it wasnt going to be drastic. But the subtle changes they made helped the styling. I'm not saying its great, the car is still bloated. I think they might see a ltl sales increase.
I mean other than styling there isnt much to complain about this car especially for the average driver. You get more standard features and more power than its competitors for a better price.
Dunno what you guys are talking about.
But I like what they did for the MMC. Obviously it wasnt going to be drastic. But the subtle changes they made helped the styling. I'm not saying its great, the car is still bloated. I think they might see a ltl sales increase.
I mean other than styling there isnt much to complain about this car especially for the average driver. You get more standard features and more power than its competitors for a better price.
02-12-2011, 02:43 PM
#6075
Pro
I swear some of these threads in the automotive section are so hard to keep up with.
Dunno what you guys are talking about.
But I like what they did for the MMC. Obviously it wasnt going to be drastic. But the subtle changes they made helped the styling. I'm not saying its great, the car is still bloated. I think they might see a ltl sales increase.
I mean other than styling there isnt much to complain about this car especially for the average driver. You get more standard features and more power than its competitors for a better price.
Dunno what you guys are talking about.
But I like what they did for the MMC. Obviously it wasnt going to be drastic. But the subtle changes they made helped the styling. I'm not saying its great, the car is still bloated. I think they might see a ltl sales increase.
I mean other than styling there isnt much to complain about this car especially for the average driver. You get more standard features and more power than its competitors for a better price.
02-12-2011, 03:09 PM
#6076
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Age: 30
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am nowhere near a fan of the 4G TL but the changes they made look a tiny bit better.
All i can say is they need to bring something like the 3G back, nicest TL by far
All i can say is they need to bring something like the 3G back, nicest TL by far
02-12-2011, 04:46 PM
#6077
Senior Moderator
1) You made some good points but Honda/Acura choose efficiency for this round of J series improvements. Since, you, I and I'd bet the vast majority on this website do not have access to Honda's technical data so I don't think anyone can state as a fact the J series is at the end of it's power potential.
2) I'm not thrilled with displacement increases but this has been a long and tried true method. Look at Porsche with the 911, they kept increasing displacement on the flat six from 2L all the way up to 3.8L over a 35 year period. That's a long time for a engine design life and there were many improvements.
3) One area you neglect to mention is the fact that the J is a SOHC and it's competition are all DOHC. The DOHC allows more flexibility in variable valve timing.
4) Although DI and forced induction are not rare, they are hardly widely used in industry. I don't have a link, but I'd bet the vast majority of vehicles and engines in them out there are normally aspirated port injection. For certain applications FI can provide improvement in fuel economy (ie diesel engines for buses and trucks) it still not consistent in fuel economy improvements in others (wide RPM range gasoline car motors).
5) I would agree at one time the J was far ahead of the competiton but most have caught up in terms of power. What I find amusing is Honda can still beat them at overall fuel economy. Again I don;t have any concise info but judging from the EPA numbers Honda probably chose fuel economy.
2) I'm not thrilled with displacement increases but this has been a long and tried true method. Look at Porsche with the 911, they kept increasing displacement on the flat six from 2L all the way up to 3.8L over a 35 year period. That's a long time for a engine design life and there were many improvements.
3) One area you neglect to mention is the fact that the J is a SOHC and it's competition are all DOHC. The DOHC allows more flexibility in variable valve timing.
4) Although DI and forced induction are not rare, they are hardly widely used in industry. I don't have a link, but I'd bet the vast majority of vehicles and engines in them out there are normally aspirated port injection. For certain applications FI can provide improvement in fuel economy (ie diesel engines for buses and trucks) it still not consistent in fuel economy improvements in others (wide RPM range gasoline car motors).
5) I would agree at one time the J was far ahead of the competiton but most have caught up in terms of power. What I find amusing is Honda can still beat them at overall fuel economy. Again I don;t have any concise info but judging from the EPA numbers Honda probably chose fuel economy.
DOHC can provide significant gains when implemented. Integrating something into the J series would probably cost as much as designing a whole new motor. As well, you have to consider that maybe honda can squeeze another 10 HP and 10 tq out of the existing J-series to match the competitors on paper but what about everything else?
How about those stories of people saying that their Honda motor lasted 500,000 miles? What about the stories of people saying their 15 year old honda still runs great today? Honda is putting reliability forward before that extra 10 HP/TQ they can squeeze out. Is that such a bad thing for consumers? I don't think so when other companies such as BMW has complaints on a huge level (above 40%) about oil consumption and other issues just about their motors.
Honda is a great motor manufacturer and for that matter a manufacturer in general. They are putting their customers first and as well sticking to their plans about being a better and greener automaker. They aren't flip flopping back and forth between idea's and trying to have a balancing act of numerous plans at once. Their current focus is sticking with the technologies they have and improving areas where they aren't fairing so well.
Take a look at the new 4G TL, are rattles plaguing the TL as bad as they did at the 3G? Are people worrying about their transmission failing like it did on the 2G TL? Honda's been working on this and other area's of their cars to help improve them. With the J-series being maxed out for it's potential and reliability, they found a few ways of reducing friction to help it with better fuel economy. Now what's next, probably a new motor design in the coming years since Forced Induction isn't going to be an option for cheaper Honda V6 models.
Honda is a good brand that has held solid through the economy going up and down and having huge shifts in the automotive industry. They know how to keep on moving forward even though we don't see at at first. Did they make mistakes, of course! But who hasn't? They fixed them and are fixing them even today, look at the 4G TL MMC, looks a bit better than it did before!
02-12-2011, 05:09 PM
#6078
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
02-12-2011, 09:08 PM
#6080
I've taken the time to count them and there are just as many rattle discussion in the 4G TL Problem section as there are in the 3G TL Problem section. Rattles are still a major issue plaguing the TL and still unacceptable for a vehicle of this price and segment classification.